AZED 2,452

11 comments on “AZED 2,452”

1. 13d. The OED in its definition of TOUR as a verb has

   3. trans. To make the tour or round of, to tour in (a country or district).

   As a noun there is an Obs, rare definition as “a circular movement”.

2. I’m completely in agreement with PeeDee regarding ‘tour’, and none of the examples for the verb given by OED under 3 suggests a passage round the outside of something. But let’s assume for the sake of argument that ‘The coach is touring Loch Ness’ does mean specifically that it is making a circuit of the loch, and we look at where the coach is relative to Loch Ness at the current point in time – it could be north, south, east or west of the loch, but there’s no way that it is all around it, or in any sense contains it. So that interpretation of ‘touring’ is a total no-no for me.

   Incidentally, I think that 1d is one of those clues that is perhaps best explained by starting from the solution, ie “Big drum” (DAIKO) “that’s bashed” (the letters of which can be rearranged) “after noon” (after M) “for Mikado” (to produce MIKADO).

3. In 29, the WC is BOG rather than LOO

4. I agree: ‘touring’ to mean ‘encircling’ is an example of the transitivity fallacy – if A=B & B=C, you can’t always say A=C, as the two instances of B may have different meanings – such as ‘going round’ in this case.

5. Thank you AP, corrections are always welcome.

6. DRC – I have some sympathy for the Coach around Loch Ness argument and that by itself would not invalidate the clue.  One may think visually of some sort of time-lapse image of the letters of the containing word representing the path of the bus.

   I think it is a stretch though, and if a setter is going to use this device then the indicator should explicitly indicate an encircling motion, albeit a transitory one.  In my book touring fails to indicate this clearly enough: either one has to use the transitive fallacy mentioned by PeterM @4 or else abbreviate “touring the area surrounding Loch Ness” into “touring Loch Ness”, and in doing so lose the meaning of “touring”.

   More specifically re 18dn – the meaning of touring in such example as “a coach touring Loch Ness” is figurative : a coach cannot sail on water hence touring doesn’t mean literally touring, it stands in for something else. In 18 down Sebastian (a person) certainly can travel through Ulster (some ground) so there is no reason to treat touring figuratively, and since Ulster has both a land border and a sea border there is no clear circuit to be made anyway.

7. Correction to my previous comment: in the final paragraph I should have said that “Loch Ness” is being used figuratively, it stands in for “the area surrounding Loch Ness”.  Touring is still being used literally.  The outcome is still the same, there is no reason in 18dn to assume Ulster is used figuratively to mean “the area around Ulster”.

8. Is this a contrary example? The Tour du Mont Blanc circles the massif. But I suppose as you walk you are on the mountain as you are going around it. The travel industry could just as easily call it the Circuit du Mont Blanc, but it doesn’t. If solvers are accustomed to a given usage, does it matter if it pushes the envelope? I think of this every time I come across some abbreviation I’ve never seen before. Abbreviations are so abundant in these puzzles that I don’t even bother looking them up anymore and just try to make a mental note. Occasionally some comment here will point out that it’s not in Chambers. Anyway, thanks PeeDee for all your blogs. I mostly see the FT one and it’s always cheerful even if parts of the puzzle are not.

9. When faced with a potentially contentious construction, I ask myself whether I could justify its use in one of my own clues. I cannot see how “X tours/is touring/has toured/makes tour of Y” can possibly indicate that part of X is on one side of Y while the remainder is on the other side, so there is no way that I would ever use ‘tour’ to indicate containment.

10. Tour of Mont Blanc is persuasive, but I think the argument loses strength if you switch Tour to touring.  Also, it works for Mont Blanc in a similar way to DRC’s example for Loch Ness: it is the specific properties of Mont Blanc/Loch Ness that give touring the extra meaning, it does not come from the word itself and disappears when applied to other subjects.

    I have had the touring (and similar) debates on my blogs for other puzzles.  In the Guardian blog the response was overwhelmingly that there is nothing wrong with touring, it is just another way of saying “going round”.  In the FT there was a mixed for and against, here in Azed the consensus is against constructions that “stretch the envelope”.

    Personally my view is that none of these approaches is the “right” one, they just represent the different styles of puzzle.  I think of it like music or theatre: one can go and see Mama Mia and have a ball or go and see a Noh drama and be moved by the exquisite formality.  Enjoying one doesn’t necessarily preclude you from enjoying the other.

    I think the real problems come when styles from one puzzle/setter get critically applied to another.  Azed is the ultimate arbiter on this puzzle: if he thinks that touring is OK then that that’s how it is here. DRC @9 would never use this is in his own puzzles and I don’t see that as a contradiction.

    Personally I would be happy if Azed decided not to use touring in this way again.  For me the fundamental reason is not that touring as a containment indicator is wrong per se but that it seems out of character with the rest of the puzzle.  Azed sets himself strict rules and this device does not seem to fit well into the Azed style, it jars with me.

11. I think that’s an excellent summary, PeeDee. If they are to be successful, crossword setters surely need to understand their audience(s) and to provide each group of consumers with the sort of pieces which they enjoy. I would have added ‘and expect’, but I believe that there is room for innovation as long as it too is based on a feel for what those particular solvers can assimilate. I would like to think that the grammatical laxity seen in many blocked puzzles was calculated rather than accidental, but…

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