AZED 2,458

34 comments on “AZED 2,458”

1. Thanks PeeDee. Perhaps it’s a grosser’s apostrophe in 7.
   A workout from Azed – even with the crossers I would never have got ARNAOUT without pattern-searching. Obscure word clued with equally obscure wordplay for me.

2. Oh, you haven’t explicitly explained that ‘coming on board’ in 23 means ‘in SS’ (SteamShip).

3. Isn’t it S (second) after MOT (word) and ION (number one brought up)?

   Publishing houses do not agree on the use of the apostrophe as an indicator of plurals in “awkward” cases. Chambers itself speaks of “p’s and q’s”. How many more “window of opportunity’s” are we going to hear from politicians before they learn to speak English? I don’t know what I’d have done with it—no. 2’s?

   Thanks for TASERS. I couldn’t quite get it. I thought it was ER in TASS “a small alcoholic drink”. I bet a lot of us used to say “C’mon, let’s have a little cheers”, meaning the drink itself. I put it down to my having an old edition of Chambers. I’m not going to update my 2006 for the 2014 because I’m sure a new edition is just round the corner.

   Stefan

4. Thank you as always for the corrections.  Fixed now.

5. Regarding 7d, Chambers gives ‘number two’ as ‘faeces’ and under the headword ‘motion’ gives the meaning ‘(usu in pl) faeces’, so the definition here for MOTIONS is ‘Number two’ and the apostrophe-s is an abbreviated form of ‘is’ linking the definition to the wordplay.

6. As usual, I have a complete grid and no memory after a week of how it got that way.  However, Gonzo@1 reminds me that I, too, would never have got 21d without an electronic word search.

   My 2014 Chambers has fallen apart and I’m hoping they’ll bring out a new edition soon.  But they had to reprint the 2014 edition with the missing words put back in, which probably has messed up their schedule.  Also, a bookseller at Waterstones told me some years ago that they reckoned printed dictionaries were on the way out.  Part of me fears there may never be another edition of Chambers.

7. Thank you DRC – this isn’t the first time I have missed ‘s as a link word.  Some good misdirection from Azed sending me off looking for spurious plurals.

   As an aside Re p’s and q’s @3 – does the apostrophe indicate pluralisation or abbreviation?  I remember being taught as a child that p’s and q’s meant pleases and thank yous. And if so what is the correct plural of YOU?  Yous looks wrong, but so does you’s.

8. ARNOUT was my last one in and I used word finder to search for -R-A to identify the water buffalo.  So technically a DNF for me too.  When its my turn to write up the blog I give myself some extra leeway regarding aids, having an unfinished blog isn’t much use to anyone.

9. Is life not wonderful? The DRCs and the Dormouses (Dormouse’s?), not to mention the Azeds, of this world are not to be trifled with. We’ve had some august discussion recently about “transitivity fallacy”, “grammatical laxity”, “open compound nouns” and stuff that just goes to make my life rich. And here we are talking about stuff that makes my garden rich. I don’t usually mince words but I shall here delicately insert the asterisk. We are all talking sh*t. And many many thanks to Azed for giving us the chance to do so.

   I’d like to think DRC has nailed it but I’m not sure. FAECES is “noun plural”. NUMBER TWO isn’t, even though one definition is “faeces”. Perhaps Azed was just having a bet each way.

   Stefan

10. Sorry PeeDee, missed your post @7. How many s’s in “p’s and q’s”?

    The word YOUSE is in Chambers, given as “dialect”. I’ve never heard it outside Australia, where it’s an “indicator word”. Furthermore, even though it’s plural, it can be borderline singular!—”Youse lot’s just taking the mickey out of me, entchya?” leading to “Youse is goin’ to get a right ‘idin'”.

    Stefan

11. The singular/plural thing is generally not an issue when the singular noun is uncountable. ‘Dung’ (uncountable) would be fine as a definition of the plural ‘droppings’, and likewise ‘number two’ is fine for ‘motions’.

12. A number two seems singular to me and motions seems plural so intuitively the definition leaves me feeling a little uneasy but I can give Azed the benefit of the doubt.

    I think both NUMBER TWO and MOTIONS can be used to indicate the results of a visit to the toilet.  They do this by acting as a collective noun representing the items in the potty.  I don’t think this presents a problem for the clue: a flock (singular) would be fine for birds (plural).  I think number two and motions can work the same way.

13. DRC – we crossed there, I think we are essentially saying the same thing but I think number two can be countable and is so in its normal usage:

    grandma: have you done a number two today?

    toddler (proudly) – I have done three!

    For number two to be uncountable one one has to think of it representing faeces in the abstract, which feels forced and unnatural.  For me Azed gets the benefit of the doubt, but it feels more like a lawyer’s loophole than natural justice.

14. PeeDee, I don’t think the definition in Chambers allows for you having a number two (whilst people may use the term in that way, if you look at the definition of ‘dump’ you will see the difference) but relates specifically to the result of your ‘visit to the office’. None of the examples in OED refers to a number two, while those that include the verb ‘do’ involve ‘doing number two’, ie producing motions.

    I completely agree about nouns which are collective or aggregative, such as ‘gravel’ for ‘stones’ or ‘pebbles’.

     

     

15. Marmite Smuggler@10 – YOUSE in the UK is almost always Liverpudlian dialect. I’ve neer heard anyone else use it.

    Peedee – I would pluralise YOU as “YOU”s. The word in itself is already both singular and plural, but in a different sense

16. Dormouse @6 : It would be a sad day if they stopped producing big dictionaries. I was wondering whether any aids are allowed in crossword competitions. I imagined the invigilators handing out copies of Chambers. And then going to consult an OSTEOPATH.

17. DRC – That is interesting.  My own experience has always been hearing number two to mean the excrement itself, but I can see that this might just be me having mistaken the act for the fruits of the act.  I can see that the OED clearly defines number two as an act.

    The OED suggests number two can be used in a countable or uncountable way.  In the first definition the OED gives “an act of defecation” rather than “the act of defecation” or just “defecation”.  In this sense the noun is clearly countable: one act of.., two acts of… and so on.  The citation from Ian Rankin “Wandered over here looking for a place to do his number twos” uses the phrase in plural, the detective’s next question might reasonably be: how many number twos had he done there?

    I looked at dump for comparison and it gives “an act of defecation”, exactly the same as the definition for number two.  One of the examples refers to a satisfactory dump. It is not obvious to me why these are different, and it is not obvious to me why these are fundamentally different to grandma’s question “have you done a number two today?”.  If you have a moment I would be interested to know why grandma’s use is incorrect.

    Regardless, the other definition faeces is uncountable, so Azed gets to use uncountable option so as you say, so no problem for the clue.

18. Questions like that @7 have me heading straight for my copy of Hart’s Rules, which tells me:

    The apostrophe is not necessary in forming the plural of names, abbreviations, numbers, and words not usually used as nouns (eg CDs, the 1990s, dos and don’ts).

    However, the apostrophe may be used when clarity calls for it, for example when letters or symbols are referred to as objects (eg dot the i’s and cross the t’s [try that without the apostrophes!], mind your p’s and q’s, find all the number 7’s).

    Such items may also be italicized or set in quotes, with the s set in roman outside any closing quote (eg subtract all the ‘x’s from the ‘y’s).

19. PeeDee @17 – I can’t find that ‘act’ definition of ‘number two’ in the full-fat OED, but I can see it in the Shorter OED, which presumably means that if you’re taken short in Oxford you can have a number two, but not in chambers…

20. Didn’t Chambers sack most of their staff many years ago? I doubt there will ever be a new edition, after all the market is only Azed and possibly Listener solvers, Scrabblers just use the lists these days. A shame, not just because it would be nice if the egregious errors eg Carley float were corrected but the joke entries will fade away.

21. DRC – @19 very amusing!

    I have access to the online version of the Oxford English Dictionary at the National Library of Scotland. It describes itself as having 600,000 words which looks about the same number as the 20 volume print edition, which I would love to have but can’t see my wife agreeing to the purchase any time soon.

    The relevant entry is below ( I have added the bold type):

    number two, noun

    Pronunciation:  Brit. /?n?mb? ?tu?/
    , U.S. /?n?mb?r ?tu/
    Frequency (in current use):
    Origin: Formed within English, by compounding. Etymons: number n., two adj., n., and adv.
    Etymology: < number n. + two adj., n., and adv. Compare No. 2 n., number one n.

    1. euphemistic and nursery. An act of defecation; faeces. Also in plural in same sense.
    1902   J. S. Farmer & W. E. Henley Slang V. 75/2   Number two,..(nursery). Evacuation.
    1949   F. Sargeson I saw in my Dream 15   You felt sick and told mother, and she felt your forehead and asked how long it was since you did number two.
    1971   M. McCarthy Birds of Amer. 145   When I had done Number Two, you always washed them out yourself before sending them to the diaper service.
    1992   I. Rankin Good Hanging 95   Wandered over here looking for a place to do his number twos. Had a torch with him. Found this.

    2. A person or thing ranking second in importance, esp. a deputy or second in command….

22. Dormouse @6 – I have 6 different editions of Chambers in print that I have either bought or inherited over the years.  I love them all dearly but sadly I find myself using the electronic copy on my phone more and more because it is so much quicker, and I always have it with me.  Anything to get the blogs out quicker…

23. My phone is about 13 years old and definitely unsmart.  Never upgrade and now I’m so out of touch on phones I wouldn’t know how to begin buying one.  (And phone salesmen, because I haven’t got a smartphone, assume I therefore don’t need one.)

    I bought my first Chambers back in 1979 when I first discovered Azed and have bought most of the editions since.  I find it easier to look up words in a paper dictionary, and for crosswords, you can see all words derived from a word as you look it up.

24. PeeDee @21 – thanks, that’s interesting. I have the OED on CD-ROM (V4.0), which boasts 615,164 words (how many more could one need?) but for ‘number two’ has:

     

    number one, a children’s word or euphemism for ‘urine’; similarly number two for ‘fæces’.

    and gives your examples except for the Ian Rankin one (the most recent of the lot), but also includes

    1937 A. S. Neill That Dreadful School vii. 118 Our juniors have an interest in the Old English word for faeces. They use it a lot—the ones from polite homes do, I mean homes that talk of No. 2 and ‘going to the House of Commons’ (how appropriate a name!).

    1938 I. Goldberg Wonder of Words vi. 108 The child is early taught to refer to his needs as ‘number one’ and ‘number two’.

    1959 I. & P. Opie Lore & Lang. Schoolch. vi. 96 Dirty kangaroo, Sitting on the dustbin Doing his ‘Number Two’.

     

    I’m glad we got to the bottom of this.

25. Thanks to PeeDee and Azed

    Just dropped in to see what the hot topic was, and perhaps add my pennyworth.

    What a quintessentially British item to discuss!

26. Is this a record for Azed comments? Came here to see what the fuss was and it’s all about Azed writing a sh1t clue that’s not sh1t at all! Perhaps he should do this more often?

    PeeDee at 13: perhaps the toddler could claim to have done a number six?

     

     

27. I think DRC is right, and PeeDee is right. But I am not wholly wrong. In our house, grandma would definitely have said: “Have you done your number twos?” Plural, and I would not use the apostrophe.

    But that’s my business.

    My guess is that all, or almost all the contributors here are male; we’ve probably got enough years under our belts that we ought to know better. Headmasters would be saying stern things about growing up. There again, they say laughter makes you live longer.

    And yes, Goujeers, how could I forget?

    Stefan

28. For many years I was confused because when I was small my mother always called turds ‘big ones’ – as in “have you done your bigones?”, so I came to believe they were no.1, so making no.2 urination.

29. A last word? I’ll not complain if any moderator wishes to remove this post.

    Quintessentially British, Dansar? Of course (but we were very young Dansar. Forgive):

    We were in some travellers’ joint in Asia. There was dismay amongst all the guests because the toilets really were not merely undesirable but in a condition untreadable. It didn’t seem to bother the proprietors. Talkers in the communal area included some English, an Australian, a couple of Germans and a few others of indeterminate nationality. And talk, over many beers, turned to what we could do about dealing with bodily functions. The English, of course, were forthright and the conversation quickly became hilarious. There was no problem dealing with these disgusting toilets, we just wouldn’t use them. The alternatives were… well, the English, of course, had splendid suggestions. Hilarity became hysterics. The English, of course, might even demonstrate the alternatives if you wished. This was too much for the Germans: “Ja, iss all good for you. You ken larff becoss you are English and you ken talk of ‘bottomss’ and ‘shit’. We are Cherman and it iss not allowed to talk of this!”

    So Azed might not have got away with it if he’d been compiling for faz or taz:

    https://www.theguardian.com/crosswords/crossword-blog/2017/oct/02/crossword-blog-can-you-be-cryptic-in-german

    May I leave you with a dear mot from Frau Wetti Himmlisch? She was Austrian but never mind. She is believed to be the only lavatory attendant to have published a biography:

    Wer immer Ordnung hat im Leben

    Scheisst in das Loch und nicht daneben.

    (I live in Australia but I am “quintessentially British”).

    Stefan

     

30. How exactly is Florida translated as ‘FA’? The US standard postal abbreviation for Florida is FL. Nobody would abbreviate it as FA.

31. Hi Michael – are you commenting from the US?  Fa is listed in Chambers Dictionary as one of the abbreviations for Florida.  I have no idea if this is historical, only used in the UK or perhaps just a mistake.  Chambers is well known for its errors, see sidey’s comment @20 above.

32. I think pretty much the only place you’ll find Fa given as an abbreviation for Florida is in Chambers, but that’s all that matters when it comes to Azed puzzles.

    Following a discussion on this site some time ago, I emailed the Chambers team to suggest that they might consider undertaking a review of the one- and two-letter abbreviations in their dictionary (none of us could recall ever having seen ‘a’ used to represent ‘about’, ‘absent’, ‘acting’ or ‘advance’, nor ‘afternoon’ – which is listed despite ‘m’ not being given for ‘morning’). Almost a year has passed with no response, so I suspect my mail has achieved FA.

33. (sorry about the blank space at the end of my previous post!)

34. Yes I am commenting from the US. I looked at the Collins dictionary online version and I see what you saw. I suppose it’s possible that it is just a UK usage, but seems more likely to be an error. Of the 50 US states, only 15 have postal abbreviations that are based on 1st and last letter of the state name. Florida isn’t one of them.

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