Guardian 27,904 / Puck

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I’m always pleased to see Puck’s name on a puzzle but I’m afraid he had the better of me this morning.

I was badly caught out by my lack of knowledge of Chemistry and, for once, had to call on Gaufrid for help, for which much thanks. There were several other tricky bits of parsing but I got there in the end.

I’m not sure if the mini nina in the top and bottom rows is significant – knowing Puck, there may well be more going on.

Many thanks to Puck for the challenge – I did enjoy it [mostly 😉 ].

Definitions are underlined in the clues.

Across

4 Discovered Maharishi is maintaining particular religious beliefs and practices (6)
SHIISM
Hidden in mahariSHI IS Maintaining

6 Bad state of service? One’s incensed! (4,4)
HIGH MASS
HIGH [bad – of meat, for instance] + MASS[achusetts] [state] – incense is a feature of HIGH MASS

9 Metal content of zinc (6)
INDIUM
I was at a complete loss here but Gaufrid came to the rescue: IN is the ‘content’ of zINc and also the chemical symbol for INDIUM

10 Best meal? But it’s not b___ cooked! (8)
ULTIMATE
An anagram [cooked] of MEAL [b]UT IT [not b]

11 GP goes berserk, having inwardly longed for some breakfast? (7,4)
POACHED EGGS
ACHED [longed] in [inwardly] an anagram [berserk] of GP GOES

15 Plan to have drunk a dram of Pittyvaich, for starters (4,3)
ROAD MAP
An anagram [drunk] of A DRAM + initial letters [starters] of Of Pittyvaich

17 Tuft of hair that’s a neat touch? (7)
COWLICK
Cryptic definition, playing on neat = cattle

18 Air bed in square 10 is somehow losing air badly? Have words with oneself (11)
SOLILOQUISE
LILO [air bed] in an anagram [somehow] of SQUARE IO [ten] IS minus an anagram [badly] of air

22 Recommend a solicitor? (8)
ADVOCATE
Double definition – though the two are closely connected

23 Seductive dancer‘s short time gyrating in exchange for money (6)
SALOME
A reversal [gyrating] of MO [short time] in SALE [exchange for money – as a noun] for the dancer who seduced Herod

24 Playing for USA, has two identical hands in card game (3,5)
ALL FOURS
An anagram [playing] of FOR USA + LL [two identical hands] for a game I’d never heard of

25 Ordering of essential bits of cash as foreign capital (6)
ATHENS
The middle letters [essential bits] of cASh are A THEN S

Down

1 In that capacity, a fascist group beheaded the Miller’s Son (2,4)
AS SUCH
A SS [a fascist group] + [m]UCH [Much – the Miller’s Son, one of Robin Hood’s Merry Men, minus his first letter – ‘beheaded’]

2 Bad smell stopped by one reasonable sort of detergent (10)
BIOLOGICAL
BO [bad smell] round [stopped by] I [one] + LOGICAL [reasonable]

3 Using winch as a cranky tool (8)
CHAINSAW
An anagram [using] of WINCH AS A

4 Jumpers displaying small fish (8)
SKIPPERS
S [small] + KIPPERS [fish]

5 Old woman having meal out in the Old Ship (8)
INDIAMAN
MA [old woman] in INDIAN [meal]

7 A drink only just opened? (4)
AJAR
A JAR [a drink]

8 Killed a large number (4)
SLEW
Double definition, the second – a new one for me – being from the Irish Gaelic sluagh

12 Plead ignorance initially about right sort of hair remover (10)
DEPILATORY
An anagram [about] of PLEAD I[gnorance] + TORY [right]

13 Bit of a boob, perhaps, if is back on ecstasy (8)
SILICONE
All I could see here was a reversal [back] of IS at the beginning and a final E for ecstasy until Gaufrid pointed out that it’s chemical symbols again – SI = SILICON

14 Trump’s ‘pesky bugs’ giving bum steer to extremely sick European? (8)
SKEETERS
An anagram [bum] of STEER after the first and last letters [extremely] of SicK + E [European] – a reference to the fly that was caught in the POTUS’ hair during a speech: Trump is in the clue to indicate that SKEETERS is American slang for mosquitoes

16 Bit of a bar fight? It’ll play out noisily, unless you keep the lid on it (5,3)
MUSIC BOX
MUSIC [bit of a bar?] + BOX [fight] – that’s the best I can do

19 Mineral primarily a compound of 13, reduced by measure unknown (6)
QUARTZ
QUART [liquid measure] + Z [unknown] – a compound of silicon [13ac – SILICON[e], ‘reduced’ – I’m not sure what ‘primarily’ is doing

20 Leading Indian once serving 7up (4)
RAJA
A reversal [up] of AJAR [answer to 7dn] – clever

21 Like 11 once were, where it’s 11 v 11 (4)
OVAL
Double definition, the second being the ground where cricket elevens play each other

80 comments on “Guardian 27,904 / Puck”

  1. Thanks Eileen – the parsing of “Athens” eluded me but otherwise I worked it all out eventually. Not a fan of “Indian” for “meal” but the rest of this was a very tricky and tricksy delight.

    The mini-nina of ABC and XYZ is a very cunning pointer to the fact that this is a pangram I suspect.

    Many thanks Puck – very puckish!

  2. Thanks Puck and Eileen

    I can’t remember a crossword where I had so many right answers without being sure they were right – half a dozen or so. A DNF in fact, as I has AS MUCH at 1d, thinking that the Fascist group (the SAS?) had been beheaded!

    It’s a pangram, of course.

  3. This was quite difficult for me to solve. I could not parse INDIUM, SILICONE, OVAL, ATHENS, or INDIAMAN – I see that the word ‘out’ was unnecessary in that clue.

    My favourites were SOLILOQUISE, ULTIMATE, SALOME (loi)

    Thanks Eileen and Puck.

  5. I quite enjoyed the battle, although I’d have got on better in the SW corner if I hadn’t written the solution to 20d in the place where 21d should go

    I’d like to confidently say that I’ve got the hang of finding sneaky chemical symbols in clues but this is bound to mean that I won’t spot the next one or two or more

    Thanks to Puck for the crossword – I did spot the mini Nina and that it is a pangram – thanks also to Eileen

  6. Enjoyed this so thanks to Puck and Eileen/Gaufrid. Failed miserably parsing SILICONE so needed to come here for that. Quite pleased with myself for managing the rest.

    The best I could come up with for ‘primarily’ in 19d was that Quartz is not pure silicon – being a compound of the former with oxygen, hence primarily. Although with twice as many Oxygen atoms as silicon even that doesn’t quite work.

    Thanks again all

  8. Thanks both. “Going out for an Indian” is very common in the UK.
    I suppose that, in the formula for quartz, silicon comes first, hence “primary”

  9. SILICONE it had to be, getting it from QUARTZ but I still cannot see where LIC comes from.

    Couldn’t parse ATHENS either

  11. My chem wit lacking too, completely missing the In and the reversed Is, though I’m sure that trick is not new. So all filled but not all parsed (thinking Indium, being soft, might be a zinc cream ingredient, d’oh). No prob with a slew of somethings being many, but had never heard of the card game, and took ages over loi Indiaman. As for primarily in 19d, maybe it’s silicon as the prime ingredient of quartz, but that rather discounts the oxygen; hey ho. Quite fun in all; A then S was cute. Thanks Vlad and Eileen.

  12. A casual meal out is often an Indian, so I think the word out is relevant.
    Very p!eased with myself for spotting the Pangram even though I missed the little nina.
    Puck is usually a treat, but I always have to come here for the more obscure parsing so thanks as always to Eileen. And Puck of course.

  14. I couldn’t fathom INDIAMAN at all, but having had the Indian pointed out, I think it refers not the meal itself but to the restaurant.  So MA is in the Indian, i.e. having a meal out.   Otherwise I can’t see how the container works.

    Liked the ABC XYZ trick but otherwise found it pretty gnarly.  What’s cranky about a chainsaw?

    Thanks Puck and Eileen

  15. I enjoyed this a lot (chemistry O/A-level to the rescue), despite the fact that having finished I had to ponder a few clues till I really finished. It was then that I noticed the abc/xyz and pangram, too late to be any help. I agree with Eileen about the dubious primarily, and also wonder about the stray if in 13d.

    I took Indian as in “I had an Indian last night” to be a Britishism, as is biological for a kind of detergent, since neither is used in those ways in the US.

    Thanks Puck and Eileen.

  17. … as you say, doofs, re the oxygen, but as you say Shirl, the silicon, being what quartz is an oxide OF, comes first.

    Surface of the day to 16d for being so far from the solution.

  19. In Ireland “Indian meal” is a term for corn or maize. I believe it was imported from the US in the 19th century to help relieve the population during the potato famines of the 1840’s. My late father as a boy on holiday in the family farm in Tyrone used to be served it as a porridge, which he hated.

  20. Lovely to see a Puck. Always a treat.
    This morning I finished but with seven can’t parse marks, so thanks Eileen and Gaufrid for helping me out. Still can’t parse SILICONE though.
    I, also, didn’t know the second to SLEW definition, and had a can’t parse mark by COWLICK until Eileen reminded me of that other meaning of NEAT – a very ‘neat’ clue.
    Thank you Eileen and Puck.

  21. Contrarian @ 7 and others

    It is hard for me to explain why I am not a fan of ‘Indian’ = meal. Just because something is commonly used, or in Chambers, does not mean that I like it.

    By that logic, ‘English’, ‘Irish’, ‘Scottish’ is ‘meal’.

    Now that I think of it, I am also not too keen on MA = old woman either. Not all mothers are old women. Not all old women are mothers. I have heard of old man = a person’s father or a woman’s husband or boyfriend, but I did not hear old woman used as a person’s mother. Is that common usage, too?

  22. Very enjoyable, though I am in the same boat regarding the parsing of INDIUM (9d). I saw the contents of ZINC in the answer but didn’t go the extra step.

    Wish I had seen the Ninas to add to the enjoyment – they were clever! I need to pull the (eye) camera back to look at the bigger picture after I have been so close-up when solving (I am sure that this would help with spotting themes as well).

    I continue/d to like POACHED EGGS, my first one in, at 11a.

    Many thanks to Puck and Eileen. I needed your help for some parses, Eileen, especially of the unfamiliar “Britishisms”, and also loved the “Indian” link!

  23. .. great link Eileen, I was waiting to see if they could invert the old joke about having a night in with an ……, but there’s no corresponding food-generic. Aussies of course deservedly get the same comedic treatment here for being drunk, obscene and rascist.

  24. Very classy use of grid.Never heard of millers son but answer was obvious.
    Thanks for GGM link.
    Promise not to post on Tees again.
    Thanks Puck and Eileen

  25. Well, there are many aspects of language use that defy ‘logic’. It is a simple fact of usage that UK users of the English language will use the term ‘Indian’ to mean an Indian meal, whereas they won’t use ‘Irish’, say, to mean an Irish meal.

    There are often cases where setters rely on dubious synonyms to fit their clues, but this isn’t one of them.

  26. Eileen, thanks for the video link – that was very amusing. So, ironically, I was right that ‘English’ also means ‘meal out’!

    On the other hand, many people (not only Indians) cook and eat Indian food at home, so Indian = ‘meal in’ and ‘meal out’. (Ditto English food.) I think that is why the clue for INDIAMAN is weak.

     

     

  28. Michelle @ 26 – I think that you will have to accept that, in the UK, we “go for an Indian/Chinese/Italian”.
    (But not for an English. Unless it’s breakfast.) It isn’t very good use of language, but it is the custom!

  29. I enjoyed this but failed to parse several, so thanks to Eileen (and Gaufrid) for the explanations.  Favourite 11a POACHED EGGS.

    When I saw “foreign capital” in 25a I thought aha – I’ve finally got wise to the fact that this is probably a foreign currency, not a city.  Then the penny finally dropped.  Oh well.  Just like I suppose sometimes a flower can actually be a flower.

  30. Thank you Puck and Eileen/gaufrid.

    Great fun. No problem with the chemistry but ALL FOURS was new to me and I did not get the Miller’s Son.

    pvb @27, I took “cranky” to mean a shaky tool – COED (esp. of a machine) working badly; shaky.

  31. Here in the Northeastern US, people don’t usually say SKEETERS unless they’re imitating Southern dialect. So although the Trump reference is apt for the surface, it doesn’t quite work as an indicator of the particular dialect, since he’s a New Yorker. That being said, I’m sure there are many other cases where terms specific to a region are attributed to people from the country as a whole, so I shouldn’t be too picky.

  32. Shirl @28 I was trying to think of which nationalities we can use like this (as meals) – apart from Indian, Chinese and Italian, I think we can perhaps go out for a Mexican, but I can’t think of any others!

  35. James @ 14 Re cranky I wondered that too until I re-read it and parsed cranky as the anagrind (like PVB @ 27).

    Michelle @ 21 Given that the ‘old man’ or ‘old woman’ is a referential term and they must always be at least a generation older than the subject it’s seem hard to draw offence other than on the most absolute of grounds.

    Liked this and it kept my attention despite finding it tough (down to the quality of the clueing – no quibbles in the parsing).

    Many thanks to Puck and Eileen.

  39. Hi Eileen, Ironically I only put that bit in to avoid people referring back to the sketch again. My comment was about whether people would go for an ‘English’ when referring to breakfast (as opposed ‘full English’ which is a well established phrase).

  42. Thanks to Puck and Eileen/Gaufrid. Well I got there in the end, but like some others needed to come here to clarify the parsing. I found it very tough going, but I did enjoy the challenge. Last two were silicone and Raja( I count not believe it was so straightforward and spent ages trying to think what a Raja’s serpent might be called). Missed the pangram and favourite clue biological. Thanks again to Puck and Eileen/Gaufrid.

  44. Been away for a bit but it’s been a fascinating conversation to scroll back through! My thoughts on “Indian” @1 are more a slight discomfort over the use of the term in a way which implies Indians (and Chinese in this country) can only mean one type of business – a take-away. The fact that we don’t say “Get a French” but do say “Get an Indian” implies some sort of precedence, or possibly an acceptance that “a French” is meaningless as the range of possible meals it implies is vast. Well, the same must be said to be true of a sub-continent of over a billion people and a vast number of different cultural heritages. In the 1980s then “an Indian” was probably a realistic term given the narrow range of dishes on offer, but I am delighted (as a foodie) that we’ve come so far since then. Interestingly, we don’t say “Go for a Thai”, perhaps because Thai restaurants entered the market at the higher end. The feeling is at most a niggle at the back of my mind, hence a discomfort rather than an outright objection.

  45. Eileen @18 yes, you have all bases covered but I’ll stick with my interpretation as I don’t like out for outside, a meal out would be a better hint for Indian than just meal, which is very vague, and Indian in Chambers is given as ‘restaurant or meal’.

    pvb @27, Robert @35, thanks, I suppose it must be the anagrind.  I wondered if an old chain saw might be started by crank, like an old car, but I’ve only ever seen them with pull cords.

  46. I enjoyed this but needed a lot of help from you Eileen and Gaufrid to nail down the parsing. In the end this was a very fair challenge which I found quite hard despite a degree in Chemistry – it all seems a long time ago now!! Shirl, ah yes a full English. Here in Spain where we live we have mostly toast with jamon serrano,and perhaps a Spanish Omelette but with a cortado coffee, lovely!!

  47. pvb@20 ….if is back ….indicates Si (is reversed) which is the chemical symbol for Silicon.

    James @14 and pvb @ 27…if you have ever tried to start a chainsaw you know what cranky means – you have to “crank” it 🙂

    grantingreo @11 …looks like a bad day for you, wrong setter and wrong name spelling 🙂

    Very good puzzle, Puck and thanks bloggers

  48. Thanks to Puck and Eileen for an enjoyable solve.

    I’ve enjoyed the food exchanges. As others have said, going for an Indian etc is fully ingrained here in the UK. Of course there is no such thing as just one Indian cuisine, and indeed many restaurants are Bangladeshi anyway. But I think the origin simply lies in the common English language habit of abbreviating/shortening things. things

  49. TheZed @ 44: I’ve certainly been known to say to my wife “Shall we go for a Thai?”, and have also heard others use it.

  51. Funnily enough, a parsed INDIUM was my first in, but I failed badly on the rest of the chemistry exam, having no idea how SILICONE or QUARTZ worked. I was also happy to pick up the old A THEN S trick.

    Very satisfying with some obscure words to add to the vocab and a Nina and pangram as a reward at the end.

    Thanks to Puck and Eileen

  52. James @ 45 The forerunners of chainsaws were hand cranked medical instruments (such as the Osteotome) and I imagine that there might have been a woodworking equivalent for mortising.

    Roberto @ 47 If you’re trying to crank a pull start chainsaw then you’re doing it very wrong!

    Eileen @ 41 No need for apologies.

  53. Roberto @ 47 On further consideration I withdraw my comment! It is connected to the crankshaft so I guess ‘crank it’ is fair enough (but it’s still better as the anagrind!).

  54. Thanks to Puck and Eileen.

    A bit of a slog here, but enjoyable with SOLILOQUISE (and my spell-check is not having that – insists on soliloquize) registering a first appearance in my crosswordland experience and SILICONE giving me a TILT, I having never noticed that silicon and silicone are different things. ATHENS raised a smile as did the mini nina.

    [What has happened to grantinfreo? And who is this grantingreo interloper? I’ve been off the air, so maybe behind the times?]

  55. Fantastic!! The chemistry stuff didn’t allude me so much (although it took a long time to explain INDIUM and SILICONE to my better half – who usually gets those before me!!) Our favourite (not least because we live nearby) was 21D – what a brilliant clue!! Thanks Eileen (and Gaufrid) and Puck – love, love, loved it!!!

  56. Robert @53 ….agreed, it’s time for the next setter to crank it up a notch.

    Perhaps grantingreo can enlighten us as to the meaning, alphalpha@54 🙂

  59. Rompibale @ 57

    Chambers defines oval as “strictly, egg-shaped, like an egg in the round or in section”. It also has “relating to eggs (obs)” which makes it almost a triple definition.

    Not sure why it says “strictly”.

  60. I must say that I didn’t understand the first definition of OVAL, but here is what the BRB says:

    adjective

    Strictly, egg-shaped, like an egg in the round or in section, rounded, longer than broad, broadest near one end.

  61. Well Mrs Rtb and I got the right letter in every square but suffered pretty much the same problems as Eileen. Thanks to Puck & Eileen (+Gaufrid) for the parsing

  62. Marienkaefer @59 I would hazard a guess that “strictly” is there because of the etymology of the word, coming from ovum meaning “egg”. hence the original and strict meaning is egg-shaped and it later became associated with a section through an egg. An oval running track is not really egg-shaped at all as it does not have a pointy end!

  63. Not understanding the objections to “out” in 5 dn. Surely it’s there to put INDIAN outside “MA”.

  65. Thanks, jeceris @63 – see me @18

    And thanks to all for the reassuring comments – glad to see that others had struggles. Renewed thanks to Gaufrid for his rapid response to my early-morning emergency call. I’m sure he won’t mind my mentioning [to save me a little bit of face] that I was able to put him right over the Miller’s Son, whom I remembered, along with Friar Tuck, Little John, Will Scarlet and Alan-a-Dale from primary school [possibly because we were quite near Sherwood Forest – but, as I’m always saying, it’s often easier now to remember things from those days than what happened last week. 😉 ]

  66. We found this very hard, not being chemists, but happy to see we’re in the best of company: if Eileen finds it uphill . . .

    The ATHENS trick was new to us, but well known to older hands, I gather. Overall, a good and enjoyable test. Thanks to Puck, Eileen and Gaufrid.

  67. Well I wasn’t expecting there to be so many comments when I came here. I thought it was relatively easy to complete the grid, but failed to parse many of those mentioned – including the much discussed Indian which is fine now I see it. I liked ATHENS and am disappointed in myself for not seeing the device. And then the blindingly obvious partial nina which I also missed. Thanks to Puck who definitely got the better of me today and to Eileen, Gaufrid and everyone else.

  69. This was – as ever – a very fine puzzle from Puck, with a rather cute mini-nina.
    Reading the comments we all agree, it seems.

    INDIUM (9ac) wasn’t a problem, I saw what happened straightaway.
    A bit like what the FT’s Wanderer often does to wrongfoot.
    However, I was stumped by how the other chemical clue one worked (13d, SILICONE).
    I think Puck was at least a bit naughty today.
    Indium is “In” and not “in”, silicon is “Si” and not “si”.
    It’s the kind of use of lower & upper case some may find the essence of misdirecting.
    But, in the end, I thought it to be unfair, perhaps clever but unfair.
    I am pretty sure both The Independent and The Times would have said ”no”.

    Nevertheless, a very enjoyable crossword.
    Oh, and I forgot to say, that this was a DNF for me as I failed on 8d’s SLEW.
    So, I lost – perhaps, some would call me even a bad loser given my comments above.

    Many thanks to Eileen & Puck.

  70. Next day so probably won’t be seen, but yes Roberto and Alphalpha, not a good day. Couldn’t spell my own name, fat fingers, and got the setter wrong, sorry Puck, glanced at the Saturday by mistake. As the teachers always said, Check your work son!

  73. Hi logomachist @71

    From FAQ at the top of the page:

    ‘A Nina is a message (or theme words etc) hidden in the grid, sometimes round the perimeter, sometimes along a diagonal or sometimes in the unchecked squares in a particular row or column (or more than one of each). Its name is derived from the American cartoonist Al Hirschfeld’s habit of hiding his daughter’s name, Nina, in his cartoons.

    What is a pangram?

    A pangram is when the completed grid contains every letter of the alphabet at least once.’

     

    In the case of this puzzle, the top row read ABC and the bottom XYZ, indicating that the puzzle was a pangram [see above: coincidentally it was the next FAQ!].

  75. Cannot understand why you’ve blogged 17d as a “cryptic definition” when surely it’s a straight definition with the WP a simple charade (“neat” for COW and “touch” for LICK, as in a lick of paint). Even more confused that no-one else spotted it – does this mean that people don’t read the blog?!! I’ve often suspected that some commenters (many more than we may think?) come here for announcement rather than edification…..such a shame when folk can’t be bothered to read others’ views, particularly the blogger’s which have taken time, effort and kindness to produce.
    (Less seriously, I raised an amused eyebrow at use of “once” in preamble – I recall Sir Gaufrid riding in before now…. 😉 )

    Nice Puck for a Tuesday – genuinely puzzling in part so good fun. I enjoyed ATHENS particularly.

    Many thanks both and all.

  76. btw – agreed with Eileen’s analysis for CHAINSAW. I can’t think of another tool more needy of a good cranking (whatever that might literally mean) to get started! A nice Puckish(?) definition. (In any case, if there’s anything guaranteed to make me ‘cranky’ – it’s the otic intimacy of an unwanted chainsaw!)

  77. William F P @75

    Gaufrid raised the same point about COWLICK after I’d posted the blog and I decided to leave it as it was and see if anyone commented!

    For the record, Gaufrid himself could vouch for the fact that I usually make a point of not asking for help with parsing when it’s my blog – I’ve lost count of the number of times that he’s ridden to my rescue when I had computer-related problems, though.

  78. We are being rather kind on Puck here. Who cares about ABC/XYZ ninas when a whole clue like 13D doesn’t bear scrutiny, or even sound like English? The clue is a horrible mess on every level. Is there still a crossword editor at the Guardian?

    At the other end of the scale 22A is such a feeble ‘double definition’ as to hardly be worth including in a quick crossword.

    In 1D, Miller’s Son is too vague as a hint for something to be beheaded and has no surface relevance.

    Only 10A actually made me chuckle.

  79. Found some of these a bit far reaching and rather loosely put together today! We thought Quakers Oats was a far superior (albeit wrong in this case) answer for 11 than the very convoluted Poached Eggs!

  80. Am catching up with missed solves from the other week. Like you and many others I needed help with parsing- should have seen how indium worked but didn’t, did not parse indiaman. My favs were cowlick – which I agree is a charade- and music box for its misdirection. Loved spotting the nina, seen after I’d worked out it was a pangram. It is always interesting to read the discussion, even coming to the party late. Thanks also for the link to the Kumars skit; I was not familiar with this.
    Thanks to Puck for the fun and to you Eileen for the as ever helpful and informative blog.

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