Everyman 3,806/22 September

37 comments on “Everyman 3,806/22 September”

1. Very enjoyable. My favourites were SPRAY GUN, IN SECRET, FORGET-ME-NOTS, THE BIRTH OF VENUS.

   I could not parse BIVOUACS.

   9a – not very cryptic?

   Thank you Everyman and Pierre.

   I agree that to clue TOMATO as ‘salad’ was a stretch

2. Thank you, Pierre. Like you, I smiled at 18 ac, and I shared your reservations about 1 ac (TOMATO) and 21 ac (HOOVER).

   But I didn’t have a problem with 11d. If I observe two people struggling (fighting) I could reasonably conclude that they are enemies (of each other).

   And in the analysis of 6d I wouldn’t have underlined both words ART EVENT. I had parsed it as a piece of ART which happens to be an “event that Serena wasn’t in time for”. But either interpretation works.

3. You’re right, Adrian – the Serena clue works much better with just ‘art’ as the definition.  Thanks.  I’ve changed the blog.

4. Thanks to Everyman for the enjoyable crossword and to Pierre for the nice and entertaining blog! I mainly came here to find out why Headbanger? gives nutter, and Pierre’s explanation has enlightened me.

   I parsed 11d as “men I see [while I am] struggling” (i.e. with “struggling” referring to “I” and not to “men”), so I thought it was fine as a clue for “enemies”. Adrian’s explanation works well, too, I think.

5. Just trying to justify ‘Fruit salad’, here is part of the entry of “nightshade” fron the ODE:

   The nightshade family includes many commercially important plants (potato, tomato, capsicum peppers, tobacco) as well as a number of highly poisonous ones (henbane, thorn apple).

   Learn something every day!

6. Overall I really enjoyed this, but I did have a couple of quibbles.  I thought 1a TOMATO was a bit weak, which was unfortunate because as the first clue it didn’t give a very good first impression.  And I don’t think “Catching” in 4a works very well as an anagram indicator, unless I’m missing something.

   But there was a lot to like here.  The misdirection of “cricket” in 10a was very good and clever.  And there were some great surfaces, in particular 24a, 27a and 19d.

   Many thanks Everyman and Pierre.

7. Thank you Everyman and Pierre.

   I, too, enjoyed this crossword – the ‘shag’ in 18a is more probably referring to tobacco. Favourite was the clue for BIRTH OF VENUS!

8. Huge variety in quality.  I thought THE BIRTH OF VENUS and ENEMIES were very good, also PM NAP and HOOVER.  TOMATO was a disappointing solution to what appeared to be a neat clue.  I suppose it’s a nod to ‘Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.’

   Thanks Everyman, Pierre

9. That’s an interesting take on the meaning of ‘shag’, Cookie.  Not one that came to mind in my head when I was blogging the puzzle, I have to say …

10. … hmm

11. Tomato salad is a thing. https://www.delish.com/cooking/g3363/tomato-salad-recipes/

12. Pardon my ignorance, but I fail to see how 1a is supposed to work. When has “tomato” ever meant “salad”? “Thanks, I’ll just have a salad” – “Thanks, I’ll just have a tomato”. Makes no sense to me.

13. Why is everyone trying to justify 1ac (TOMATO)?
    A tomato is a fruit, there is a thing called ‘tomato salad’ (which Everyman must have thought of)
    but ‘tomato’ itself is not a salad (as poc says @12)
    So, this cannot be a double definition.
    This clue actually doesn’t make any sense to me.

    In 4ac, ‘catching’ as an anagram indicator is, to say the least, original.
    It is not the first time that Everyman uses an unusual (or perhaps even a dubious) indicator
    to make the surface work. At times, it looks as if (s)he wants to be ‘different’ at all costs.
    Whether those learning the game will appreciate that – not sure.

    Thanks, Pierre, for the blog, I share all of your ‘misgivings’.
    That said, I quite liked 11ac (and 6d).
    Also 18ac – the PM just told us that he is ‘a model of restraint’ …..
    All in all, an enjoyable enough crossword.

    There is one more thing that I would like to say something about.
    It’s what I call ‘a technical issue’, so if you do not want to read any further, fair enough.
    See you next Sunday!

    Quite often solvers make comments about clues in the format “A indicator B” in
    which A and B are the fodder and the definition, in any order.
    Especially in homophone or reversal clues the answer is not always unambiguous and
    crossing letters are needed to decide which one is the definition.

    In both 25ac and 1d we have a similar thing.
    The fodder (A) is placed in between two indicators, both working on that fodder:
    “indicator1 A indicator2”.
    Does this mean “(indicator1 A) indicator2” or “indicator1 (A indicator2)”?
    Perhaps, both are justifiable but, for me and many others, the first option is the one to prefer.
    We write and read from left to right in the English language.
    In the aforementioned clues Everyman clearly goes for the second option.
    In 25ac ‘tatty walls, heartless’ could easily lead to: (WALLS)* = AWLLS and then AW[L]LS.
    And in 1d, ‘drunken teens endlessly’ could lead to, for example, (TEENS)* = SEENT and then SEEN[T].
    This risk of being ambiguous is a reason most setters are very careful when they use ‘double devices’. They might even wish to avoid this situation anyway.

    Phew – and sorry to those who just wanted to have a cup of coffee on a Sunday morning.

    Many thanks to Pierre & Everyman.

14. Thanks Pierre and Everyman – I enjoyed this, though I agree with many of the niggles mentioned above.

    Re 9a, I think the cryptic definition refers to “nut” as a verb = to headbutt, or hit someone with your head.

    Some delightful surfaces here, though 18a is an image I don’t really want to have in my head. The surface in 21a seems even more appropriate right now than it might have been when Everyman set this puzzle, though the President is still “admitting nothing” as ever.

15. COED “salad 2 a vegetable or herb suitable for eating raw” – tomatoes are sold in the vegetable section …

16. … perhaps comparable to a “cucumber a long green fleshy fruit, used in salads”.

17. Collins gives “tomato 1. plant with red fruit 2. the fruit, used in salads etc.“.

18. After last week, which I nearly gave up on & couldn’t finish, this came as something of a relief. At least I was able to complete it even if I couldn’t explain some of my answers. BUT I completely agree with all of Pierre’s niggles above. Too many inaccurate definitions (‘impose’ does NOT mean ‘encroach’ – impinge would have been better) and dubious anagram indicators, especially ‘catching’.
    Can I say how pleased I am to have found this blog? I first came across it (as I think others also did) back in January when trying to find out what had happened to the Everyman, and it has been a source of entertainment and information ever since, as well as a welcome reassurance that I am not alone in struggling with the new regime. Thanks to all the bloggers, and my fellow solvers.

19. I enjoyed this puzzle, albeit with some of the same qualms as others. Quirister @14 makes me feel better about NUTTER. I didn’t know this particular meaning of “nut”, but I’m quite prepared to believe it exists, and it makes the clue sound as a cd (although still not a great clue in my opinion). I’m still not wild about “fruit salad” or “catching” as an anagrind.

     

20. As Sil @13 points out, TOMATO can be a type of salad but the words are not synonymous. Thus, if one said “I’m going to eat my TOMATO” it would not be a salad (unlike “I’m taking my dog/poodle for a walk”) This could be remedied in the clue, I think, by saying ‘Fruit salad ingredient’ or some such.

21. A huge thank you to all the bloggers who have the unenviable task of disentangling these clues. Personally I think the new Everyman is trying to be too clever by half with topical/smutty references along with the pairing of certain answers often making the cryptic halves incomprehensible (to me at any rate). I long for a return to the tight Everyman clues of the past.

22. Robi @20, “I’m going to eat my lettuce” does not sound much better”, but I like your clue.

23. Bob  M @21, the PM has admitted to smoking spliffs, these are usually made with shag.

24. 1ac reminded me of an occasion when I chose salad with a meal in Romania, they included nothing but a large sliced tomato, though that was twenty years ago when they were still recovering from the Ceaucescu regime.

25. Cookie @23.  I rather doubt it.  My idea of a shag smoker is someone using an old-fashioned tobacco pipe for its original purpose.

26. John E @25, shag is used for rolling cigarettes, it seems that spliff smokers prefer it to cigarette tobacco (by the way, I do not smoke).

27. To expand on my previous comment: all hand-rolling tobacco is shag tobacco, but I have never come across a hand-rolling user (legal or illegal) who refers to it as ‘shag’. It is typically the (legal) pipe smokers who are knowledgeable about the different types of tobacco on offer.

28. Unless the setter were Dutch (it cannot be our Sil) or the PM had recently spent time in the Netherlands where “shag”  is the word for this type of cigarette, it seems that the presumed meaning of 18a stands – not that that would matter in the week, but at weekends many people want to solve en famille – there have been complaints about such clues in the past.

29. (First reply here: hello, everyone!)

    I found this Everyman better than many recently but overall I agree with Bob M’s comment above.  The definitions are often dodgy and sometimes seem to me to be cryptic in themselves (e.g. from a few weeks ago: “heartless fire children’s entertainer” giving Lego).  Tomato does not = salad.

    The other crossword I do regularly is in The Week and I’ve wondered if the setters are the same: many of the same tendencies including dodgy and/or cryptic definitions, and sometimes very similar clues in both puzzles.  Anyone else notice this?  Or has this been discussed in depth already?

    Thanks, Pierre and in fact everyone!

30. Morning Tom, and thank you for your first comment – welcome.

    Your opinion of the current Everyman series seems to chime with many others.  There is another less than cryptic definition mentioned in today’s blog of last week’s puzzle.

    As to your question about the cryptic in The Week, I don’t know the answer.  It’s not a publication I’m familiar with.  Some papers use a puzzle bank to provide their cryptics, which can be an amalgam of clues set by different people – in fact, when Colin Gumbrell retired from the Everyman slot in January of this year, the paper published the next week such a crossword (to much comment and complaint, it has to be said).

    Keep letting us know how you are getting on.

31. Agree with all of the above, other than those seeking to justify 1A which was a poor clue. And quite how ‘catching’ works as an anagrind is beyond me, especially when Everyman is typically billed as a ‘learner’ cryptic. As such it should stick to accepted protocols and not go out on a limb. A pity, since this setter is capable of good clues and nice touches of humour.

32. @Adrian & Pierre: I could not for the life of me get 6 down because I was trying to think of an art event – but underlining art only makes perfect sense of the clue.
    I’m enjoying the new setter – to me the quibbles are just that.
    Many thanks Pierre and Everyman.

33. I thought this was an excellent crossword and had a chuckle at 18ac and 6d. From reading comments on 21ac some may prefer President to hang with ring-in.

34. I liked this puzzle a lot.  I struggled with several of the clues, but that’s just because I’m not the brightest bulb in the chandelier.  My only reservation was about 9 across (“nutter”).  As Michelle@1 says “not very cryptic”.

    However 1 across (“tomato”) is fine. Two meanings for “tomato”; adjective describing “salad”; noun meaning “fruit”.  A bit tricky maybe, but perfectly legitimate.  I was surprised that Pierre didn’t see this.

    Thanks to Everyman and Pierre.

35. Took me two days to get thru this but can count jet lag as a legit excuse Along with the Rugby WC  Found this quite hard after two weeks away and found many clues tricky. Can anyone clarify why Hair = shock?  I dont get that connection.  Loved isthmi matadors, hoover and Forget me nots.   Certainly one of the harder ones of late Found the tomato  debate interesting until the arguments for too contrived. A tomato is not a salad tho.

36. Hi Vanessa,

    The Oxford dictionary gives “an unkempt or thick mass of hair” as one meaning for shock.

37. oh OF COURSE….thanks Lindsey,  I did know that. missed it completely

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