Guardian Cryptic 28,034 by Chifonie

68 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 28,034 by Chifonie”

1. Is this a first? Two across solutions with down parsings (9 & 17).

2. Sorry, loonapick, I see you’ve already pointed them out.

3. thanks Loonapick, indeed a gentle start to the week.

4. I’m glad it wasn’t just me with 9ac and 17ac.

   Is a fast a diet? Or am I just being picky?

   Does 26ac really work? “Needing” doesn’t mean “essential” – needful or needed might. Why not “Wanting to accept money…”?

   I happen to be familiar with the Gnostics of 13dn, but this does seem rather obscure GK for a Monday morning.

5. I agree that 9a and 17a would be better as down clues.

   It took me a while to parse 22a because I was wondering if P = priest.

   Thanks Chifonie and loonapick.

6. Thanks both. Shame about 9 & 17 across.
   NeilH@4 – I think that “gnostic” is pretty well known to crossword fans. Maybe CK rather than GK

7. Spliff=cigarette? I want my money back.

   Very loud czech beer fuddled smoke(6)

8. I found this a bit tricky for a Monday offering – thrown by the two “across that should be down”, wrong part of speecvh in “essential” (I agree with NeilH @4) and also don’t see how the definition in “collar stud” works. Dicky dirt is rhyming slang for shirt and I’ve worn plenty of shirts but never a collar stud. As a definition by example it’s a bit weak.

   Anyhow, thanks Loonapick and Chifonie but perhaps the editor needs a closer look at some of these puzzles!

9. ha ha copmus. I had doubts too about the definition.

10. TheZed@ 8
    A dickey is a false shirt, that needs to be held in place with studs or something similar.

    Copmus@7 an indirect anagram? – thought you’d know better…

11. TheZed@8 – a dicky is something I have learnt about from sojourning in crosswordland- more CK I think.

12. I did this lying down in bed and so had no problem with 9 & 17 ac.

13. If the grid was revolved around the NW to SE diagonal, all the across clues would become down clues. 9a would be 21d, and 17a would be 19d, and everyone would be happy.

14. Loonapick @10 and ngaiolaurenson @11 thanks for the explanation. So it’s an obscure use of the word linked to the wrong term – a collar stud attaches the collar to the shirt. My father-in-law still talks of the boils they used to cause at the back of the neck when he was a child. I can’t find any reference to collar studs being used to attach dickies, only buttons. Maybe I am being unduly picky but as one of a number of dodgy clues I found it irksome!

    I agree with NeilH @4 re “diet” too – a fast is not a diet and in the sense intended the word really means the same thing – ones choice of food.

15. TheZed@14, I had no problem with DIET clued by Fast. While they are not full synonyms, many would call a liquids only diet “fasting” and we only need one such example.

16. Thanks Chifonie and loonapick

    Apart from 9a and 17a, a very nice puzzle. Favourites were REDCAP and SEASON.

17. 13 down – is diagnostic the same as symptomatic?

18. Shirley @17: no, it’s not.

     

19. Loonapick@10 I can just about stomach the anagram but the def is WRONG

    Chifonie is normally a very neat setter. His puzzles are seldom difficult but usually impeccably clued.

    So what happened?

20. I quite enjoyed this, despite the lax approach to clueing. In addition to the iffy clues mentioned here above, I might add that the stray “‘s” in 4d IMP+AIRED and again in 5d “Ford’s access door” really irritated me.

    SEASON was cleverly clued. I biffed it, but took ages to see how “the main issue” worked. The Oscars topicality of JOVIAL amused me, too.

     

21. copmus @19: my Oxford has spliff = “a cannabis cigarette”.

     

22. For 9a I assumed Chifonie couldn’t resist coupling TUP & MOUNTING.

    I didn’t find that any of the laxity got in the way of solving but clearly some people find it irritating

    Thanks to all

23. Good Monday morning fare I thought, with a couple that needed a liitle extra thought. I think charades or more than 2 or 3 elements (eg 16 dn) can end up appearing contrived. 24 ac had me feeling “could be anything/anyone” at first, but a quick run through the “Bruces’ Philosopher Song” soon provided the answer.

    I do not have much of  problem with “up” or “down” as a reversal indicator in a horizontal clue. Neither of these words necessarily implies a vertical direction – think “down the road” or “upto town”. And I seem to remember they were often used as simple  reversal indicators many years ago. Perhaps the problem is that in this sense, they do not imply any horizontal direction either.

    I’m with copmus @7 and Pedro @9 – I would never use “spliff” as a synonym for “cigarette”!

    Thanks Chifonie and loonapick.

24. Quite funny that EDITOR is one of the dodgy ones.  One would like to think it was done ironically but no doubt it’s just snafu.  Clergyman for P and money for L are terribly incomprehensible.

    Thanks Chifonie, Loonapick

25. pserve_p2 @ 20 Both 4d & 5d parse fine, what you see as a stray s is an indication for ‘has’.

    I don’t see the problem with a cannabis cigarette being clued just as cigarette, the two meanings of diet (what is eaten and how it’s eaten) or with symptomatic indicating the almost identical diagnostic (in its noun form).

    Wasn’t sure about ‘needing’ and there’s no getting around the fact that 9a & 17a don’t work.

    Liked redcap for the misdirection and found it a puzzle of four corners (easiest in the SW and hardest in the NW).

    Thanks to Chifonie and loonapick.

26. Thank you Chifonie and loonapick.

    I had no trouble with 9ac and 17ac, the indications are to “go up the line”…

27. A relative beginner, so forgot MP had two meanings, but got redcap from the clue. Also know P  for priest & L for money, but it’s the comments that throw me: Snafu? DK? CK?

28. Thanks both.  Loved the très passé at 23a but hasn’t this gag been seen before?  You around Beery?

    Tend to agree with copmus @19 – this setter is usually fastidious.  An off-day perhaps.

    copmus @7:  less keen on your SPLIFF alternative…derived anagram and no order indicator…tut tut.  Or was this  simply to emphasise your point about sloppy setting?

    Nice week, all.

29. Cookie @ 26 17a possibly but 9a doesn’t have ‘up’, bit of a stretch to justify mounting as a reversal indicator.

30. pserve_p2 @20 & robert @25 The ‘s for has that doesn’t translate to anything in the solution used to be a staple part of Times clues, then I think was banned for a few years, and now seems to have been allowed back in.  Having got used to its disappearance I also now find it annoying, but it’s a very convenient device.

31. I’m surprised that some people are trying to justify the down reversal indicators in 9A and 17A – just look at the reversal indicators’ list in [some] Chambers [or the Chambers Crossword Dictionary.]

    I can’t see the objection, however, to SPLIFF being clued as a [not needed] CIGARETTE – see Chambers: ‘1. A marijuana cigarette, a joint 2.The act of smoking such a cigarette.’  I, too, thought NEEDING was not really synonymous with essential.

    All in all a somewhat unsatisfactory solve, although I did like the French very unfashionable thingy.

32. Easy enough to solve, but uncharacteristically loose for Chifonie. Both 9a and 17a had me wondering if he originally composed the puzzle with the grid rotated as described by NNI @13. I also thought that needing = essential was not quite right.

    Regarding the definitions by example, I think that SPLIFF works, but DIET does not, despite the effort of KLColin @15 to defend it. In general, if A is an example of B, it’s acceptable to use B to clue A, but not vice versa in the absence of a question mark or some word like “perhaps.”

33. Thanks to Chifonie and loonapick.

    I had none of the technical problems referred to, which goes to show how little attention I pay to such matters. I would have thought that anyone familiar with The Big Bang Theory would be familiar with “Dicky” from Walowitz’s preferred attire – that being said I doubt I would have known it from any other source so…

    I liked TRESPASSER and FARTHING, both of which took the Monday brain a little too long.

    Meg@27: “snafu” is a term for something, usually something small, that goes wrong and requires an inordinate amount of attention to rectify.  “GK” is general knowledge – I don’t see “DK” but “CK” is used and is probably intended to mean crossword knowledge.

     

34. So where was the “jazz” part of spliff(jazz cigarette)

    A joint in rock n roll days ie 60s 70s was (in Britain) 3 rizzlas stuck together with  a crumbled cigarette or tobacco with an addition of crumbled hashish Its equivalent in USA was 2 zigzags rolled with neat grass Having not over-indulged in either, I can remember these things

    As some guru opined “dope smoking causes brain damage, memory loss and brain damage.

35. snafu

36. copmus@34: That I must remember that one.

37. Robi @31: Crikey! I was so relaxed about SPLIFF=cigarette that I didn’t spot that horrendous extraneous ‘a’ right there. Harrrumph!

     

38. Dave @32, re. 9a: nah! The setter simply couldn’t resist the surface value of “mounting” as a reversal indicator.

     

39. Typical Monday crossword really. I think there will always be a few niggles in a Monday crossword. Mine were I thought redcap should be two words, and I wasn’t keen on goulash as an anagram indicator. 9ac and 17ac didn’t bother me, must be a marmite thing.

     

40. Thanks chifonie and loonapick
    I too was doubtful about ‘needing’ in 26a. The nearest I can get to accepting it is in a quasi intransitive sense as in ‘that is needing to be done’ but even that does not seem wholly satisfactory.

41. Alphalpha @33.  Don’t know about SNAFU referring to “something small”. I thought it originated in WW2 and reflected the frustration of frontline soldiers at the incompetence of those in command!

42. If the setter had been anonymized I would have guessed it was a newbie. On the other hand, I finished it quicker than my cup of tea, so can’t complain that the several, er, indiscretions were an impediment.

43. Howard @39, ‘goulash’ is a synonym for ‘stew’, but it is also a way of re-dealing cards in bridge.

44. Alan Swale@41: Reference sources support what you say but in my experience of its use (usually dismissively as in “just a snafu”) it appears to have morphed a bit.  Could be a Humpty Dumpty word, so whatever the user intends it to mean.

45. NNI @13: I see your point but wouldn’t it need to be reflected about that axis rather than revolved or haven’t I woken up yet ?

    Thank you Chifonie and Loonapick.

46. Thanks both,
    None of the quibbles raised gave me any pause in the solving so they didn’t worry me. They are more allowable in easy clues than hard ones, IMHO. I was doubtful about 10a until the crossers appeared. It could have several other things, e.g. Fish (as a cd), ‘diet’ works as a dd.

47. Alphalpha, thanks for reply. I meant GK & CK, don’t know where DK came from.

48. I seem to recall an un-numbered jigsaw- type special (last year?) where there were two possible jigsaw arrangements and the wording of one of the clues made it clear which was to be submitted. It may have been this very grid.

49. ipd’o @45
    I knew revolved wasn’t quite the word I was after, but I couldn’t think of anything better at the time.

50. Dr. WhatsOn: If you’re still here, I’ve left you a note on the Boatman blog.

51. Il principe at 48, I think it was a big-grid Maskerade holiday special. We recall as we felt very pleased to have solved only to learn we were 90 degrees out, so ‘close, but no cigar’.

52. Thanks for the blog. No complaints from me re the straightforward Monday puzzle.

     

    SNAFU is an acronym for : situation normal, all fucked up.

53. There was a Philistine Alphabetical jigsaw (27136) with symmetrical grids where the clues indicated the orientation, but confusingly the letters N E W and S also appeared around the central black square in a way that suggested the opposite.

    Araucaria was quite keen on them too…

54. Same quibbles and surprise that Chifonie was the setter with these imperfections. They did mean I only pencilled EDITOR in until I got the crossers but it was still a pleasant enough Monday solve. Like others I ticked TRESPASSER and FARTHING. Thanks to Chifonie and Loonapick.

55. How easy would it have been to make 17a – Journalist travelled back without it (6). Little sloppy, but I got the meaning nevertheless. Enjoyable amble to start the week. Particularly liked 14a and 25a

56. I took “dicky” as referring to a dicky bow, which might well need a stud

57. I can’t shake a vision of previous contributors fastidiously holding their crossword vertical to make sure all the down clues are actually down when they fill them in.  Me I do the crossword flat on the desk, so nothing is ever down and nothing is ever up. Anyway, in relation to 9a and 17a, both “mounting” and “up” have plenty of alternative usages that can be taken as indicators of reversal, eg, “in revolt” for the latter.

58. I can only assume that it is some sort of archaic convention that requires different words to be used in clues depending on whether they are across or down, because it strikes me that in a CRYPTIC crossword it is totally irrelevant – a bit like the convention that an anagram must have a clear anagrind to point to its presence, even when the letters making up the anagram are heavily signposted and obvious on their own. Still, we live and learn.

59. DICKY is cockney rhyming slang for shirt ie dicky dirt so COLLAR STUD is perfectly fine. I enjoyed this and, while there was some looseness in some of the clues,this didn’t hold me up or detract from my enjoyment.
    Thanks Chifonie.

60. Despite being ‘dodgy’ as a clue, the surface of 9ac is very funny.

61. Thanks Chifonie and Loonapick. I agree with Trismegistus@23 about using up and down in across clues. Any thoughts on the second “r” in TRESPASSER coming from “redhead” as one word instead of two? I recently saw “gunshot” and “roadwork” where “shot” and “work” were anagram indicators of the remaining letters in their respective words. I thought it was clever but others felt quite the opposite, as if it were a violation of some sort.

62. Principe@50 I’m willing to give it a try!

63. Dr. W: The method is that of William Leybourn. I have pictures of my work to date and a Desmos graph but I do not know how to send you this.

64. ipdo @ 48, beery @ 53

    There was also a two-possible-way Araucaria alphabetical which resolved by one of the solutions being THE BOTTOM LINE

65. Very enjoyable and about my level … so please keep it so on a Monday!

    Irritatingly as often seems to happen on my more successful days I fell 1 short…And it’s nearly always a short double definition…I was sat on the tube coming home staring at 10A and the woman sat next to me said “I think I know what it is” – why do people do that?! Of course I said ‘well, don’t tell me!’… but had she said to me “I think it’s ‘Diet’ “ I’d have said ‘well how does that work? Fast isn’t a synonym for diet? If anything it’s an antonym for Diet, it means the lack of any diet?! I’m assuming it’s one of the other multitude of definitions for fast like quick, or as in stuck fast, or a fast (dry) race track, or of loose morals etc etc’

    So anyway in summary not only didn’t I complete, but if you’d have told me the answer I still wouldn’t have put it in!

66. Don’t worry Stuart, those double definitions still get me. Flammable and inflammable; I’ll give you that pair, but show me another pair and there’s bound to be something wrong with it.

67. No-one around probably but I saw DIET as cryptic definition, not double, and thought maybe it should have a ? but that would have been a giveaway. It made me smile.

68. Gayle@67 – That’s exactly how I saw it – and a pleasingly neat cd for that. Surprised no-one else here did. (Not that I disagree with Loonapick’s parsing also – a nice bonus). In fact, it and TRESPASSERS were the two I ticked.
    It’s true this wasn’t quite the silkiest (Dacesque?) Chifonie, but that, ironically, made it more enjoyable. I find Chifonie (and Mondays generally) so often a write-in which is irritating; my bad I know yet enough to mean I avoid them. But a commenter in a later blog to this has referenced this puzzle approvingly so I made a note to check it out. And I’m pleased I did!
    Many thanks to Chifonie and Loonapick.

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