Guardian 28,157 / Tramp

75 comments on “Guardian 28,157 / Tramp”

1. Thanks Tramp and Eileen

   I didn’t parse AGEDNESS or see the BY in LOCAL DERBY either. Favourite was MORON for “Present behind”.

   I wondered about SCORECARD as &lit. I think it works if it’s a bridge scorecard, as the contract recoreded might have been in clubs.

2. Thanks, Eileen. I read BY as “before” as in “the house before mine.” I found this tricky to finish, not helped by having put in Broom for 21dn!

3. A masterclass of misdirection with favourites at DENIER, ILL-INFORMED, PRESS, SUBWOOFER, MORON, & THOROUGHFARE.

   Had to flog through the whole of the def for EDIT in Chambers before deciding not to gripe about polish.

   Not quite sure about the need for written in the CHARITABLE clue.

   Lovely puzzle, right up my street, many thanks, both.

4. Thanks Eileen; I thought maybe the “by” in 2d represents (loosely) before; e.g.: I’ll be with you by 10pm…  Great and v tricky crossword fro  Tramp – some wicked misdirections

5. Notwithstanding NeilW’s brave defense, not convinced by ‘by’ in LOCAL DERBY.

6. Thanks both. “I’ll have it by Friday” = “I’ll have it before Friday”??

7. Sorry Neil@2 – mine must have crossed with yours; similar take on the parsing I see

8. Sorry TerriBlislow @4, we crossed

9. Some gems here and a few where the synonyms etc were a bit stretched to make good surfaces…but the surfaces were great fun, most telling a misleading and witty story, which is something I really love. “present behind” indeed! “bra anger miss” seems a bit “what3words” and a bit out of character with the rest. “agedness” was my LOI and I literally built it up bit by bit with “send” coming as the last part with a great deal of satisfaction.

   Re “by” in “local derby” I was a bit at a loss too. If we assume nothing is doing double duty, “by” must come from “before”, “getting” or “before getting”. I cannot see a suitable synonym in any of those.

   And just to be purely pedantic, I’ll point out that no-one in Star Trek ever said “Beam me up, Scotty”. But to beam out a signal is a reasonable synonym. And I’ve heard German colleagues refer to a video projector as a “beamer”.

10. Sorry to all those I crossed with and also to Tramp and Eileen for forgetting to say “thank you very much”.

    I’ll have it “by Friday” means “before or on Friday”, not “before Friday” so I don’t think this floats.

11. The fourth challenging and enjoyable cryptic in a row.  Happy days are here again. Some devious clues, but who could argue with ILL-INFORMED and STRETCHERS.  As usual with these mind-benders my LOI was the comparatively simple four-letter JAWS.  Let’s now hope for five-in-a-row with tomorrow’s puzzle.

12. Shirl @6

    “By Friday” and “before Friday” don’t mean the same thing – the former would allow delivery on Friday, the latter wouldn’t.

13. A number of people seem to have been thrown by opting for ‘broom’ at 21d. i flummoxed myself for a while thinking that the solution was ‘sedge’. All sorted out in the end, and a very enjoyable puzzle.

14. We crossed, TheZed

15. I have just received email confirmation that by = before in 2dn, as Terriblislow and Shirl have it. I’ll amend the blog.

16. I wondered if there was a theme: ILL-INFORMED, PRESS, TERSE, AMORAL, EMBARRASSING, MORON, DENIER (as in one who denies)…  It all sounded a bit like commentary on the politicians’ handling of Covid and/or the daily briefings  (and then, with EUROSCEPTIC, maybe Brexit).  Then I saw CHARITABLE and thought maybe not…

    I enjoyed solving ZIMBABWE: thinking ‘babe’ might be a (probably politically incorrect) attractive girl but how could it ‘house’ a W without coming up with ‘babwe’?  Ah!

    Thanks Tramp and Eileen as always

17. I wondered too, Mark.

18. Thanks, Eileen and others, for pointing out how SHANDY and LOCAL DERBY work. Whereas the famous D-day hints in the Telegraph were amazing coincidence, anyone who doesn’t see significance here is highly credulous. Of all the words which apply to the appalling UK Prime Minister, the one defined by his name is probably the least certain, since in his case “living a lie” has been brought to a fine art – which makes you look elsewhere. Brilliantly done, Tramp.

19. Zipped through this until coming to a grinding halt in the SE corner not helped by bunging in a (surprisingly) unparsed TORYSCUMBAG for 20a! Also did not expect the Graun to stoop to babe.

    Thanks for both a testing puzzle and the subsequent illumination.

20. As so often with Tramp, I found this a struggle and probably wouldn’t have finished it without a few shortcuts. Still a fine puzzle, and no excuses for taking so long to see JAWS which was last in.

    Thanks to Tramp and Eileen

21. beery @20 Same here with LOI.  The -a-s gave so many possibles and film could also mean several things as well as be a movie name.  Could I trouble you to glance at your famous spreadsheet: denier seems to have come up more than once in recent times (though, as always, my ageing grey cells might be recollecting occurrences in other publications)?

22. Yes Eileen I too scribbled ‘Scotty?’ next to agedness. Other notes were terse? for quick, got? for ‘came to’ and ‘Is thorough fare the GOD (Groan Of the Day)? No, it’s st retchers!’ (Lehrer-ish).

    So, pottered along, finally staring thickly at the last three in the SE. Zi[p] is a great demo of the infinite generativity of language (nip, hop, pop), and yes, ok, that, plus babe around w, earns loi and cod. Meanwhile, didn’t like bed for border. ‘Plant space at front of border?’…better?

    By this time, typing slowly, someone will have explained why ‘by’ is ‘getting’for the Derby. Thanks both, and all.

23. Had SEDGE in for 21d, so that meant the SE corner was rather compromised for a while. SUBWOOFER I didn’t know, so more hold ups till I looked that up. Liked the misdirection with 25 and 27ac, eventually…

24. Hi grantinfreo @22 – not ‘by is getting’: see comment 15.

25. Yes – it has been a good week. I felt sure there was a clear theme after quite a few solutions to Eileen’s ‘quick’ crossword clue at 20ac (“Boris Johnson is one”) appeared in the across solutions (POLYMATH, DENIER, ILL-INFORMED, PRESS, EUROSCEPTIC, AMORAL…even SUB-WOOFER joyfully descriptive!). But I fear this may be coincidence rather than design. I agree with second paragraph of preamble.

    Many thanks, both and all.

26. BlueCanary@19 – certainly not the first time a Guardian setter has “stooped” to use ‘babe’. Beery would know. (And I’ve heard it used by many unbending folk!)

27. A bit of a slow solve for me. I gave up and revealed Zimbabwe then wished I hadn’t. ‘Present behind …’ made me laugh when I finally worked out that present was a verb. I agree with others who don’t like ‘by’ for ‘before’. Finally, re 14d, my Pilates teacher would not be happy with stretching as a description of what we do!

    Thanks to Tramp and Eileen.

28. As usual from Tramp, the misleading definitions are the highlight: CHARITABLE and GRAPESHOT had me foxed for quite some time.

    And yes, anyone who clues an inviting definition like 20a is just asking for mischief. I spent quite a while trying to work out how to parse INCOMPETENT.

29. I was so not on Tramps’s wavelength for this, having put in a few on initial pass and then stalling, but post solve cannot see why ie the parsing was clear. Another broom here. LOI was JAWS which took ages to see. Maybe it was just a brain-freeze day. MORON raised a smile. Thanks to Tramp and to Eileen.

30. First time post from long time reader, and thank you all for puzzles, blogs and comments. I can’t say I’m good at the Grauniad, but recently after solving without cheating ( who’d do that??), I thought I was finally cracking this game. Then these last four days I’ve taken ages…
    Loved this one today, despite bunging in HERESTHETIC for the BJ clue at 20ac with some certainty only to come unstuck and curse. Then the penny dropped…
    LOI was JAWS. D’oh!!
    Thanks again to all. Especially to Eileen for your informative blog, as ever.

31. Welcome, Dryll @30 – loved the quip! Hope to hear more from you.

32. The Chambers Thesaurus has for ‘by’: 4 get home by noon;
    before, no later than, at. So, at least one meaning is before, although not exclusive.

    Impressive crossword; I loved THOROUGHFARE, STRETCHERS and the miss who got angry after someone fumbling a bra.

    Thanks Tramp and Eileen.

     

33. I thought I had successfully navigated this minefield of misdirections, only to have a final check show that 23d is not NORA (sort of works, but I grudgingly acknowledge that DORA is better). Lots of ‘aha’ moments along the way anyway, so thanks to Tramp for the fun and to Eileen for the parsing of LOCAL DERBY.

34. Like some others I suffered from brain fade on JAWS, but I’d also missed out by putting NORA at 23. I got the NO by thinking of pros & cons, ayes & noes. It almost works.

    Favourite was ZIMBABWE, and like Mark & Eileen I got there by the “BABE with W?” route.

    Thanks to Eileen for the blog and Tramp for exposing the EMBARRASSING AMORAL ILL-INFORMED EUROSCEPTIC MORON.

35. Dave in NC – great minds think alike!

36. BlueCanary @19 – You have made my day. 20ac is of course inaccurately clued. Bodge is not a sceptic, a person who maintains a doubting attitude. But -phobic wouldn’t fit, I accept.

     

37. Mark @16 et al., [whiff of] GRAPESHOT made me wonder if the theme might be Trump rather than Boris:  PRESS DENIER, ILL-INFORMED, EUROSCEPTIC, AMORAL, MORON and EMBARRASSING all fit equally well.  POLYMATH and CHARITABLE are puzzling, but perhaps the antonyms are intentional — SUBWOOFER is (in a way) the inverse of TWEETER.

38. Thanks for the great blog, Eileen and thanks to all for the kind words. I was thinking of “home by/before midnight”. I wrote this in September and there is no theme.

    Neil

39. Thanks, Tramp, for the crossword and setting the record straight.  It just goes to show we can usually find themes where we want to see them.

40. I wrote BROOM boldly in ink. Only one thing wrong with it-clashes with all three crossers. Très Tramp

    Great puzzle and 4 goodies in a row in the Graun. Fingers crossed for tomorrow,

    Thanks Tramp and Eileen

41. Aww Tramp don’t spoil the fun with the truth. I was about to add PRESS DENIER to Sheffield’s splendid rap sheet but see that Ian SW3 beat me to it.

    [BTW Sheffield are you actually a milliner or a Luton Town supporter in exile?]

42. I think this is a first, or at least I don’t remember it happening before:  21d has <b>3</b> solutions, and they all seem to fit equally well:  EMBED, BROOM and SEDGE, and what is more, the constructions are all different.  (Ronald@23 also had the last, I see.)  What do you folks think about this?

    In 23d, I think NORA is just as good as DORA btw (Are you going to vote Yes or No? = Are you going to vote Pro or Con?).

43. Like many before me, I had NORA, and I don’t feel that I should mark myself as a fail because of it. ZIMBABWE was only there because the letters fitted, not because the clue made sense.

    Plenty to like of course, 20a most notably, but I have more trouble with MORON than I do with BABE. I remember its use as a pseudo-scientific term.

44. Thank you BlueCanary for giving me a good laugh. Thanks setter and blogger. Tough baby for me, so glad to finish.

45. [BlueCanary – Thanks for asking! I’m a Luton Town supporter in happy exile in South Yorkshire.]

46. I enjoyed this puzzle.

    Thanks Tramp and Eileen

47. Thanks Eileen especially for explaining 26A, I was groping vaguely towards gunshy/nerves being shot but you have sorted that out very nicely.

    I am another fan of the various misdirections, favourites 25A and 3D. And whatever else he may be, I don’t think that the PM is necessarily a eurosceptic – like many of you, it certainly wasn’t the first word that sprang to mind although most of my choices would have fitted better into the shorter slots. While a DORA myself, I sympathise with the NORA gang as I think, thanks to Dr WhatsOn@42, that it also works fine.

    Mark @21, DENIER did appear at least once not too long ago or I would have taken a lot longer to get it today – can’t help you with exactly when though – maybe even a cyclops? I only got AGEDNESS from a word completion site so DNF really. In my defence I think it’s a rare and clumsy word, and I can’t think of when I would not just use “age” instead. Never mind – thanks Tramp – you win this time!

48. Dryll @30. I’d never heard of heresthetic, but you’re right, it fits perfectly. Pity about the wordplay…

49. Gazzh @47. DENIER was part of the wordplay in 19d in this one by Anto on May 11th, exactly a month ago.

50. Dr. Whatson@26.  Never being one to decline an opportunity to express my opinion (thanks for that) here goes.  My first thought for 21d was BROOM, then SEDGE and lastly EMBED.  I think SEDGE and EMBED parse equally well but BROOM, on reflection, does not quite cut it. That said, I do not recall seeing a clue with three reasonably plausible solutions.  I expect someone has a database somewhere.  I’m a Pro, by the way; I could never bring myself to vote Con.  This week pretty chewy so far – Friday should be fun.  Thanks Tramp & Eileen.

51. Whoops, Dr Whatson@42, not @26.  Not even close!

52. 10 DENIER is of course a lovely song by David Gedge’s other band, Cinerama. Bizarre coincidence that it was clued at 10 too. Maybe Tramp’s a fan? SUBWOOFER my favourite for providing a bit of light relief 🙂 cheers all

53. First time post after returning to the Guardian crossword after almost 20 years away. Lock down has seen me realise just how much I’ve missed the challenge. Very appreciative of the help found here when I’ve been stumped.
    Enjoyed today’s puzzle but failed to get 25 and hadn’t parsed 27 before coming here.
    Re William@3’s comment on 13,I parsed the first part of this one by using ‘tea’ to give me ‘cha’ with the ‘r’ coming from ‘written’ (one of the 3R’s) – just thought I would throw this into the mix.
    Many thanks to all the bloggers and posters for the informative, and often humorous, comments left here.

54. Thank you sheffield hatter@49, i thought it must have been one of the quirkier setters and remember enjoying the Anto.

    Bodycheetah @52, thanks for suggesting some more music to look up later.

55. Happy days. My first finish of the week though I still found it hard going. EUROSCEPTIC & SUBWOOFER make it onto my podium but top spot was my last in, JAWS, for the time it took the penny to drop.

    Thanks to Tramp for a thoroughly enjoyable challenge & Eileen for the review

56. It’s shaping up to be quite the challenging week. If anything I’d probably say this was for me the easiest of the four so far but aside from Imogen’s especially stiff test of mental dexterity, they’ve all been at a similarly taxing level. It takes a little time but I do often manage to relax onto Tramp’s wavelength and this was all pretty fair and a lot of fun.

    There was some serious self-kicking when on my final one I got as far as pencilling .imbabwe from the wordplay and crossers, decided that was a nonsense string of letters and spent far too long trying to fit other things in before the penny finally dropped.

    I’m another fan of the cheeky “Present behind” in 3d.

    Thanks Tramp and Eileen

     

     

57. Johnny Kingsman @53  Welcome back to the Guardian and it’s only fitting you should get a reply to your first post.  I just saw your comment on the ‘written’ in CHARITABLE and realised I must have skimmed that answer in Eileen’s blog (Sorry, Eileen).  Actually I parsed it exactly the same way as you with the R coming from the 3 R’s.  Wasn’t entirely convinced but it got me to the answer and utilised all the wordplay.

58. Excellent puzzle with some beautiful misdirection in clues.

59. Lovely puzzle, my favourite so far from an excellent set this week. A steady cruise (or maybe tramp?) rather than a sprint, but I never felt lost. Thanks to Tramp and Eileen

60. Hi Johnny Kingsman @53 – Welcome back!

    I was waiting to see what reaction there would be to your parsing of 13dn, so thanks to Mark @57 for weighing in.

    I think ‘tea’ does perhaps more often clue CHA and that was my first thought but CHAR is an alternative spelling, so I went for that. Variations on the three Rs [Reading, Writing and Arithmetic] are often used in clues but I think the jump from ‘writing’ to ‘written’ is a step too far. I think ‘written’ is there for the surface. [I was put in mind of fancy tea shops that list umpteen varieties of tea on a chalk board.]

61. A dnf for me as my first one in was Sedge for 21dn. It never crossed my mind that it could be an error, so i Have spent much of the afternoon questioning all other crossers.
    C’est la vie. It has been raining anyway!

62. I’m another who had NORA instead of DORA, and still think it’s sort of OK, as pro and con are loosely equivalent to yes & no. Made a mess of the SE corner by putting in STRETCHING instead of STRETCHERS, and couldn’t get AGEDNESS. But loved the puzzle. Many thanks to Tramp and Eileen.

63. Too hard for me (or maybe my brain just wasn’t working today…). I gave up with about 75% in – parts of the right-hand side were empty; I couldn’t come close to getting Zimbabwe or grape shot or embed or agedness.  But certainly, a very fair puzzle!

64. One more NORA here.

    EMBED I don’t think “bed” means “border,” myself.  I thought “front of border” meant B, but that wasn’t present in the anagram fodder.  Head-scratcher.

    rodshaw@11 I thought ILL-INFORMED was about as un-devious as a clue can get.

    Trailman@43 — I had the same misgivings about MORON.  If you feel a right Charlie you know you’ve done something silly and embarrassing, while “moron” is an obsolete medical definition for somebody seriously disabled.

    I don’t think AGEDNESS deserves to be a word.

    But Tramp and Eileen are both deserving as ever!  Thanks to both.

65. Lovely puzzle, thanks Tramp and Eileen. Favourite ZIMBABWE.
    I had a very unsatisfactory SEDGE too for a while til EUROSCEPTIC went in. Surely S would have to be ‘space at front’, leaving ‘of’ inexplicable.

66. First one in was BROOM at 21D, which I prefer as an answer to EMBED, and as a result I never got the SE corner sorted. I think this is the first time i have failed to complete a Tramp.

67. Mark and Eileen, thank you for your words of welcome.
    Slowly getting to grips with a new generation of setters.
    Appreciate your support Mark but having seen Eileen’s post, am happy to accept that written is there for surface.
    My knowledge of fine teas is notably lacking having spent a lifetime drinking just one – namely, Builders’

68. Took me two sittings and I still couldn’t get ZIMBABWE or SHANDY
    I had NORA first but I did see DORA eventually- COD for me.

    Not really a Tramp fan but it rained in Devon this afternoon so –
    Thanks anyway.

69. I struggled mightily with this and needed liberal use of the check button, so it was a DNF.  I was another SEDGE.  @Gonzo, I think it’s hard to apply such fine detail to the parsing to convincingly rule it out.  I justified it as “Space (at front of) + border for plant”.  I knew it was wrong after I got a few crossers and realised that 20 was an anagram of pieces and court.  Still failed to get it though.  How 11!

    The final “in” of 26 (SHANDY) seemed superfluous and unhelpful to me.  Tramp could have gone with a 20 style definition for MORON with “Gordon is one”.  Perhaps that old song reference wouldn’t be so well remembered.  I liked the idea of the SCORECARD &lit with its golf surface, but the “s” really gets in the way.  Still works, but is not too neat.  I liked EMBARRASSING the best.

    Thanks, Tramp and Eileen.

70. Valentine @64

    Chambers – ‘bed: a garden plot’;  border: a flower bed in a garden’.

71. On the “by” / “before” question: It’s true that “by Friday” and “before Friday” are different, as TheZed and muffin said. On the other hand, Tramp’s similar-seeming example of “by midnight” and “before midnight” works fine. I guess the reason is that Friday has a duration, whereas midnight is an instant. “By X” means at any time up to the end of X, and “before X” means at any time up to the beginning of X, but if X is an instant those are the same.

    Well, unless you’re a mathematician who cares about the distinction between “less than” or “less than or equal to”. In principle, I suppose that if you finish the puzzle exactly at midnight, you did it by midnight but not before midnight. But that’s what the mathematicians call “a set of measure zero”, and I’m OK with ignoring it.

72. Ted @71
    Well said. Tramp himself gave a perfect example of a context in which the two phrases mean exactly the same thing in practice, and therefore the two words (‘by’ and ‘before’) are equivalent.
    The general point I might make (by way of endorsing your well-reasoned comment) is that if there is at least one real or realistic context in which either of two words can be used to convey the same meaning then either of them can be used to define the other. It doesn’t matter if other contexts can be found or imagined in which there is not an exact equivalence.

73. If a supplier said to me “I’ll get it to you by Friday”, if it wasn’t there by 9am Friday I’d be on the phone (in those days).

    Tramp is absolutely in the clear, from my pov.

74. Sorry to be so late.

    27dn triggered a cryptic reflex – “Space = Em or En”. It’s taken me years to learn, and for once it prevented my wandering into the SEDGE – clearly a very tempting answer…

    Lovely crossword – thanks to Tramp (sorry there actually wasn’t a theme – I felt it was getting clearer all along) and of course to Eileen for her lucid analysis and further comments. To all previous commenters as well – great stuff, guys!

75. I had Nora at first as well, on the reading that she is not an RA, therefore any claim she is is a con.

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