Guardian Saturday puzzle 28,183 / Boatman

76 comments on “Guardian Saturday puzzle 28,183 / Boatman”

1. Thanks Eileen. The quotation you are looking for is:

   Whom she with leasings lewdly did miscall,
   And wickedly backbite: Her name men Sclaunder call.

   This was a tough one and initially I thought it was unfair but with closer acquaintance I could appreciate it a bit more. Except for 15a which was just far too abstruse, It could only be REVILED of course but who could be expected to know that in Spenser’s time MISCALLED was synonymous? That meaning is not even plain in The Faerie Queen and could only be verified in OED. The SE corner held me up, I knew what the answers had to be but had to work hard to explain them; DZHO came immediately to mind and was just as immediately dismissed as impossible. I thought tennis was the theme early on but expected some more direct reference rather than a bit of a scatter.

2. This was good entertainment with a whimsical theme that was hard to miss, although several answers were entered with a shrug as the wordplay sailed over my head, and I took a while to parse SCULPTOR, DILETTANTI, and my cotd DROP. Also thought CLUE was neatly clued and enjoyed the pair of trademark Boatman clues.

   Thanks to Boatman for the fun and to Eileen for the parsing of CAUGHT, REVILED, THE MAN (still not sold on ‘scorned rather’), SMASHING, and SET POINT (another favourite now that I see it).

3. Well, gosh. I suppose it was tennis themed I mean there were lots of references in both clues and solutions but it never felt like a themed puzzle. Weird, really – like he had a good idea and then got bored. And a few specific niggles: dismissed = caught? possibly in cricket but even then a bit iffy, and nothing to do with tennis; and Spooner’s journo under? Why “under” ? Over makes some sense, but under makes none at all that I can see. And as for 24 (dn & ac) – words fail me. Sorry, I’m not usually so dismissive, but I was seriously underwhelmed by this effort.

4. And now I expect a blasting from everyone else. So be it

5. Enjoyed the puzzle and being aware of theme during the process. MyLOI was 15a but I got it wrong. So many words fitted the crossers so i settled for DECIDEr which fitted the theme and reversed to rediced which I *hoped* was serve. I guessed correctly which Spenser was referenced but lacked the knowledge to see the correct answer.
   Thanks to Eileen for parsing of Kindness into SET Point. Small error in blog for 21d. It’s initials of cull halted not badger cull. But I see it’s disappeared above so I bet this is being fixed!

6. I rattled through the NE and SW reasonably quickly (for me) and then ran into a wall. The grid looked nice, though – identical pattern in each diagonal quarter. And it stayed that way for the rest of the week…

7. Thanks Eileen.  Thankfully, as the mob in ‘The Life of Brian’ chanted, Yes Yes We are all different! I was happy enough with the tennis theme which helped produce answers – but for me some parsings were dodgy line calls (SET POINT, TWISTS and DROP SHOT.) Google was called upon for GLIAL and the Faerie Queene.  Biggles above: It seems more than once the clue was apt for Spenser, eg the bit in FQ where he writes  “reviling me … miscalling me by many a bitter name.”

8. Clue = this, ie the clue itself, worked ok I thought, quite liked it, and the puzzle in general from what I remember. Googled Spenser/miscalled to explain reviled and got the gen. Only snatches of verse remain I’m afraid (..”What can ail thee..”, “.. a host of golden..”). Yes, Eileen, I thought ‘Hmm, glial cells will be a bit obscure for gk’, though somewhat up my street, so it went straight in.

   Thanks Eileen, yes you could have done without the reminder of this theme! And thanks Boatman.

9. This was a very peculiar puzzle, at least for me. I zipped through most of it during the time it took my after-dinner cuppa to cool. Then much more of a struggle with REVILED, DILETTANTI, SETPOINT and TWISTS, which, now trying to look at them objectively, seem somehow qualitatively different from the rest, and justify the puzzle’s prize rating.

   I loved the tennis theme, being both a player and watcher. When I was younger, I used to go to Wimbledon every year, usually for the finals or semis (depending on the parity of the ticket packets). I feel for those who expected to go this year.

   The FQ reference is this: (I now see molonglo@7) had it too

   Faerie Queene. Book V. Canto VIII.

   All times have wont safe Passage to afford
   To Messengers, that come for Causes just:
   But this proud Dame, disdaining all Accord,
   Not only into bitter Terms forth brust,
   Reviling me, and railing as she lust;
   But lastly, to make proof of utmost Shame,
   Me like a Dog she out of doors did thrust,
   Miscalling me by many a bitter Name,
   That never did her Ill, ne once deserved Blame.

10. ..and no, never before met a dzho!

11. Jaydee @3 and 4, I don’t think this qualifies as a blasting, but I think you’re being a bit harsh on our setter. I’ll address just one of your criticisms: journo = hack, under prohibition = banned, hack banned = Spoonerism for back hand. Works OK for me.

12. Years ago an aunt and I were enjoying the Henry Moore reclining wwoman that used to occupy the forecourt of our gallery, when a passing bloke said “Well I wouldn’t marry ‘er”. Auntie shot back “You wouldn’t get the chance!”

13. ..and set point was a did-not-parse, thought it might be about set theory, sets being about entities ‘of a kind’; forgot about ness, headland, point, hey ho..

14. molonglo@7. Thank you. I’m no Spenser scholar, tried FQ once, didn’t like it. I only got my reference courtesy of OED but yours is probably more apposite. I stand by my comment though, it is just too abstruse.

15. Like: YES-BUT

    New: GLIAL CELLS, DZHO, HEARTS card game

    Did not parse 22d TWISTS

    Failed to solve: 15a DELIVER and 22a THE MAN

    Thanks, Eileen and Boatman

16. When I solved 7a BOULDERS first up, I was actually hoping for a Rolling Stones theme, but my hopes were dashed as I began to find many references to tennis instead. I knew the theme would rub salt in the wound of missing Wimbledon live for Eileen. So it must have been difficult when she drew the short straw of blogging this one.

    I didn’t mind my experience of the first three-quarters of this puzzle, and I appreciated some fun clues like 9a ARABLE, 11a BLACK MAMBA and 12a CAUGHT. However, I found getting the last quarter solved was more of a challenge and not as enjoyable. I thought 24a DZHO had a particularly awkward surface. I also had to look up GLIAL CELLS (13d) to check that my solution from the wordplay was correct. I couldn’t parse 15a REVILED, 26a SET POINT (which I now think is very clever), 22d TWISTS or 24d DROP.

    Someone on another forum during the past week remarked that it is important that the blogger on the day can come at the puzzle with a critical eye, as we solvers do. While I agree that sometimes the blogger’s criticisms of a particular puzzle sets the tone for the whole blog, I do appreciate it when the blogger expresses her or his opinion and validates that, while also giving credit where credit is due, as Eileen has here. There was enough enjoyment in this puzzle for me to appreciate Boatman’s craft (!) and of course I am not a setter’s bootlace, so many thanks for this crossword, Boatman, and thanks to Eileen for explaining some things I didn’t get and also for expressing your opinions and preferences and justifying them.

    [P.S. I also liked The Ancient Mariner clue!]

17. Here’s another example of the use of ‘miscall’ in the FQ:

    Pouring out Streams of Poison and of Gall,
    ‘Gainst all that Truth or Vertue do profess;
    Whom she with Leasings leudly did miscall

18. I enjoyed this, and for once even I spotted the theme! Getting that many themed references in was impressive, but occasionally felt forced – that happens with themes. I found myself stuck for quite a while on two clues right at the end. I tried for a while to see -A-G-T as CATGUT which would have been a tennis reference, but eventually realised it must be the really fairly obvious CAUGHT. LOI was, unsurprisingly, REVILED, which I only got by finally looking up miscalled in Chambers and finding the third meaning there actually referenced Spenser. Obscure, yes, but actually a neat clue. Thanks Eileen for the comments, particularly the parsing of SET POINT, and to Boatman.

19. Jay@17. That’s the same example as mine.

    I’m more comfortable with Kipling:

    Not but they’re ceevil on the Board. Ye’ll hear Sir Kenneth say:
    “Good morrn, McAndrew! Back again? An’ how’s your bilge to-day?”
    Miscallin’ technicalities but handin’ me my chair
    To drink Madeira wi’ three Earls – the auld Fleet Engineer,

    At least I know what he is talking about.

20. Re 15ac, I wonder whether Boatman’s original definition might have been “Edmund’s miscalled”, with the surface reading referring to Kyle Edmund, the former British no. 1 tennis player? Was this simply a missed opportunity by Boatman, or did the editor make an unforced error by changing Edmund to Spenser?

21. Thanks Boatman and Eileen

    Not as extreme as some of Boatman’s. My main complaint is that it isn’t absolutely crystal clear which way round to enter 15a; there is an argument that the clue could give DELIVER, depending on how “on return of” is interpreted.

22. Thanks Eileen. I hadn’t parsed SET POINT. Have never read or studied Spenser but just assumed reviled = miscalled in his poetry. I particularly liked BLACK MAMBA and thought the surface of GLIAL CELLS clever.
    Thanks to Boatan and Eileen

23. DNF for me, as both 22 answers escaped me, and I ended up guessing wrongly.  I did not know THE MAN either, though its parsing is quite simple when explained.

    I agree with grantinfreo@8 about CLUE – ‘This’ is a ‘clue’ that we are reading, and the solution is CLUE, so ‘This is the solution’.  Like RichardH@20 my first thought for 15a was Edmund, but that quickly failed to work, and REVILED became self-evident – thanks to you all who found the appropriate Spenser quotations.

    On 16a, Eileen, I felt ‘to’ (as well as to mislead by suggesting ‘Objects to’ = ‘dissents from’) implies ‘Objects which are ‘set in tie’, broken’, and I did not object to it.  Sorry you were not able to use your Wimbledon tickets – same for me (first day, first week), but we have our money back and, importantly, a promise of the same seats next year (at next year’s prices, no doubt).  Thanks for your blog.

24. Biggles@19, apologies I missed your earlier post. Agree, the FQ is certainly a tough read! Enjoyed the Kipling quote

25. Not one of the best-ever crosswords, but perfectly acceptable I thought. Failed to solve 15a. Among favourites were CLUE (parsed as grantinfreo@8 and quite neat, I thought),  DZHO (which I vaguely knew, probably from another crossword somewhere), and THE MAN (which went in quite quickly, as I knew the expression from 1960’s songs, notably “Proud Mary”:  “Left a good job in the city/Workin’ for the man ev’ry night and day …”).

    Thanks both.

26. I was quite chuffed to have actually finished a Boatman – at least I thought I had, but now see that I put DELIVER not REVILED (as per muffin @21).

    The tennis theme definitely helped (sorry Eileen!) – without it I would have struggled to chase down the DROP shot, fluffed SET POINT, and would certainly never have won a LOVE GAME.

    Favourite was Spooner’s BACKHAND (and I thought it was rather an appropriate shot for His Reverence, playing back to front, as it were).

    Eileen – I think the parsing for BLACK MAMBA needs to be A + MBA, leaving “a snake” as the definition.

    Many thanks B and E.

27. Thank you, CanberraGirl @5 and essexboy @26 for pointing out my careless slips – I’ll correct them now.

    grant @8 and sjshart @23 I see what you mean and that’s what I meant: ‘this’ = ‘solution’ but that, for me, makes it a double definition and the annotated solution has it as a cryptic one.

    Richard @20 – now there’s a thought! But I don’t think that’s Boatman’s style – and the clue has already been called ‘abstruse’!

28. Well, a DNF for me. The NW and SE were left incomplete for days, with hunches that LOVE GAME, CAUGHT and REVILED were the answers for the top corner, but really stuck down the bottom. Obviously it was THE M.. but I couldn’t think of anything but THE MOB, so that gave me the idea of SCORCHER neither of which I could even vaguely parse and didn’t help with the other crossers. Then, picking it up yesterday, they both fell, helping me get SET POINT in my head, but unparsed, leaving me the two 22s. And that’s where the story ends.
    Never heard of a DZHO, and wouldn’t ever have thought there was a creature beginning with those two letters, so that escaped me, and the wordplay of DROP is too hard for me, but given the D.O. I would have bunged it in and come here. But…
    I thought there were some clever clues, and a few write ins, but Spenser was unknown to me, so that GK was a bit unfair I felt.
    Liked ARABLE, SCULPTOR and TWISTS but probably because it was unfinished I now feel a bit meh, as I believe the kids say these days.
    By the way, we don’t often see Boatman very often, do we? So, nice to have a different setter with alternative workings for the clues.
    Thanks for the blog, Eileen, despite your misgivings and sadness about Wimbledon, and Boatman for the week’s workout.

29. As someone who’s played a lot of Scrabble, meeting DZHO was like bumping into an old friend. See also ZO, DZO

    I liked CLUE and took it as a “hide in plain sight” clue with the exclamation mark indicating something unusual was afoot

    Thanks Eileen & Mr B

30. I could have looked up miscalled in Chambers, but I would count that a dnf, so didn’t bother. Otherwise I enjoyed this and appreciated many of the devices. Particular favourite was CLUE (sorry Eileen).

31. I also liked CLUE.

    In similar vein, a few years ago the following was posed:        (8).

    Thanks to Boatman and Eileen.

32. Thanks Boatman for a fun challenge and Eileen for explaining it so well, bad luck on the ballot tickets,

    I think someone already used ‘whimsical’ to describe this theme/crossword and that seems apposite to me. It is more tennis as played on lawns of big old houses with cucumber sandwiches and tea afterwards or an informal tournament at the village club than the seriousness of Wimbledon.

    As Muffin @21 I initially punted for DELIVER, though had changed it to REVILED without getting into the Spenserian scholarship, for which much thanks to m’learned friends.

    Like some others I was amazed to find a word beginning with DZH which I looked up my Chambers (on my phone rather than the dead-tree version). CLUE was the LOI with a bit of a groan

    Overall, it was a lot of fun, so thanks again Boatman, Eileen and to all the contributors to 15^2.

33. Unlike some I thoroughly enjoyed this, despite failing to parse “set point” (thanks Eileen) and not getting REVILED. I had heard of GLIAL CELLS from a lay interest in science, and DZHO (and variants) from Scrabble as bodycheetah @29 mentioned.

34. A dnf for me courtesy of REVILED.  Far too literary for the likes of I. I enjoyed it nonetheless.  Held myself up in the SE corner by lazily bunging in DILETTANTE and then spending too long trying to come up with something too complete T_ESTS for 22d.  Hey ho.  Thanks both.

35. I,sort of, enjoyed this and around 2/3 went in rather quickly and then I came to a halt. The rest took much more time. I did have DELIVER rather than REVILED at first- no crossers to check the answer. Liked THE MAN. I remember when, at the height of hippiedom, the capitalist company Columbia Records had the slogan” The man can’t bust our music” .Ahem!
    Thanks Boatman.

36. Did anyone else try BLACK ADDER for 11a?  My thinking was that “married” just indicated that the two parts went together, and a “business school type” would have to be able to add up, wouldn’t they?  The crossers soon put me right.

    Favourite was 9a ARABLE (one of the traditional two clues featuring the word “Boatman”.)

    (Re your opening remarks, Eileen, as I said in the discussion a few days ago, personally I would rather that bloggers refrained from making general “didn’t really enjoy it” type comments.  Criticism of the working of individual clues is always welcome, but general negative comments do seem to me to set the tone rather unfairly.  And I think surface themes of this type are just as valid as hidden / ghost themes.  Hidden themes are sometimes so well hidden that they add nothing to the experience for me!  Anyway, as I said the other day, that’s just my view.)

37. A DNF from me. I like opinions so keep up the good work Eileen.

38. As an ardent sport-ignorer, I enjoyed the theme even though this was a DNF for me.

    Count me as another one caught by the DELIVER/REVILED ambiguity, though that was far from my only missing answer.  I parsed DZHO but couldn’t verify the definition even after checking multiple dictionaries; and forgot about “LET” in 23a, leaving me trying to make an anagram from D SERVE IN IT (the crossers don’t rule that out).

    Also failed in the top-left corner.  I got tunnel-vision on 12a, assuming it must end “-ED”, and therefore not solving 3d either.  Coming back a week later and abusing the “Check” button, I realised I’d missed the obvious tennis connection, but still don’t get why it’s “dismissed”.

39. BiglyNifty @38: CAUGHT is way of being out, or dismissed, in cricket.

40. Enjoyed this, some tricky wordplay. Thanks Boatman and Eileen.
    Auriga @31: that reminds me of
    1ac (1,6,3,1,4)
    (Araucaria?)
    JinA @ 16: ” I am not a setter’s bootlace” – you intrigue me, that’s not in Chambers 🙂

41. Thanks, all, and commiserations, Eileen …

    As you’ve probably realised, I hadn’t spotted the fact that both DELIVER and REVILED could fit equally well with the crossing lights, otherwise I might have worded the clue slightly differently. I think it’s just about clear that REVILED is the intended solution, on the basis that to make DELIVER work as the solution, you’d have to read “of” as the link between wordplay and definition, in the sense “[wordplay] of [definition]”, which to most people would be the wrong way round – but, all the same, I was slightly relieved that prizes were not at stake this time.

    And – Eileen – you’re quite right that the clue would have been lifted to another level if only there had been a tennis pro called Spenser. I looked, too, and found several Spencers, which I thought might be enough to lead a few dedicated tennis buffs momentarily in the wrong direction.

    Jaydee @3 on whether “under Prohibition” was fair as an indication for BANNED – DaveInNCarolina @11 explained my thinking perfectly, but you may like to know that my first draft had “in bar” instead, which I liked (for obvious reasons) but which Hugh felt was a little too tangential – I wonder whether you’d have preferred it that way … ?

    Also from my first draft – whether you liked or loathed my clue for CLUE, you may be relieved to know that my first draft had simply “Solution!” but I was persuaded that I might have gone too far in this case …

42. I think Eileen’s lack of A-level Spencerian recall is an example of merciful oblivion – but in my year we had Marvell in compensation, whom I still read with pleasure.

    Yorkshire Lass and I look forward to a Boatman, not least for the childish fun of coming here to see how fiercely his detractors will pile in. Sadly restrained today, with M’s complaints other than the main being unheard melodies . . .

    Thanks to setter, revered blogger and all here who brighten these dark days.

43. Thanks for dropping by, Boatman, with helpful elucidations.

    Regarding CLUE, I suppose I must be thankful for small mercies. 😉

44. Thank you Gonzo @40. I’ll add that to my collection of quirky clues.

45. I put in DELIVER @15a without parsing it. It means serve and I didn’t know the Spenser reference which I agree with others is expecting too much. I left it in when my son told me what Chambers said. Pleased that Boatman agrees that it is possible.
    Eventually parsed 26a but not happy about “kind” = “set”. Both are groupings of a sort but I can’t think of a sentence in which one could be substituted for the other without a change in meaning. Could well just be me.
    Thanks to Boatman and Eileen, with whose comments I agree.

46. For once I spotted a theme early enough for it to be useful in helping me solve a puzzle!

    I also thought there was a surplus A in the clue for 11ac, BLACK MAMBA, but can just about accept the definition being “a snake”.

    I didn’t get 12ac, CAUGHT, despite studying a list of words that matched the crossers and I think the clue is defective, because “Frequently found with grass” doesn’t define a ‘court’ but an attribute of some of them and although being “dismissed” is a consequence of being CAUGHT in cricket, they are not the same and being caught is not an example of being dismissed but an example of a reason for being dismissed, so neither the wordplay nor the definition works imo. Thanks for explaining, Eileen.

    I thought it was clear that for 15ac, REVILED, I needed a word for a Spenserian (sic, Irishman @42) use of “miscalled” and when I eventually turned to my old paper Chambers, there it was in black and white. It hadn’t occurred to me that the clue could cut both ways, although my natural (or learned?) aversion to [wordplay] of [definition] will have steered me away from thinking DELIVER was the answer. However, on being alerted to the problem, I wasn’t at all sure Boatman would have the same aversion and I’m glad to read that he does. I didn’t understand what you meant, @ Eileen, by the words “of course, it can be taken – as it must be – as ‘Spenser’s miscalled’ = (to others) REVILED”.

    I also object to the “to” in 16ac, ENTITIES. It’s surplus verbiage and although the anagram is obvious,so it doesn’t seriously interfere with solving the clue, it’s still an irritation to me. I don’t see how “Objects to set in tie-break” implies  “‘Objects which are ‘set in tie’, broken’”, as sjshart @22 states.

    I thought 17ac, ADDRESS, was a brilliant clue with such a meaningful surface. I am surprised to see no one else picked it out.

    I think I first heard the expression THE MAN (22ac) in about 1973 in the Curtis Mayfield song, Freddie’s Dead (YouTube, 5’29”):

    “Everybody’s misused him
    Ripped him up and abused him
    Another junkie plan
    Pushing dope for the man”

    where I suppose it stands for “some other authority in a position of power”, to quote Eileen.

    I hadn’t seen the spelling DHZO (24ac) before and it’s not in my old Chambers, although zo, dzo and dso are all listed as alternatives under zho. Stil,l I wasn’t really in any doubt about the answer and found that spelling in WIktionary.

    I couldn’t work out the wordplay for 26ac, SET POINT, but got it from the definition taken together with the theme and the crossers. I’m not sure SET is quite the same as kind (people of that kind/people in that set?) and I think if you’re going to use elisions like that (not quite the same as lift-and-separate, @Eileeen, though often so called), you really have to be very precise with synonyms, but maybe I’m just annoyed at not getting it?

    I didn’t know the term LOVE GAME (1dn), but guessed at it from the wordplay, vaguely remembering the card game from childhood, and confirmed it with the dictionary, the theme helping at assure once again. Another type of person I can’t really understand is, like one commenter above, one who will drop a crossword if they can’t solve it without resorting to references works. Presumably they do possess a dictionary and/or other tools they would need to get the job done? Are they just too posh to use tools? Don’t those unfilled spaces glare at them all week, begging to be filled if at all possible?

    I thought 2dn, CLUE was excellent. I don’t see it as a double def, because “the solution” doesn’t define the word CLUE — they’re only the same thing in this one particular case. I’m glad Hugh Stephenson, who is often accesed here of not living up to his job description of ‘Crossword Editor’, did well to persuade Boatman that “This?” wouldn’t do. Re the clues it reminds people of, the answer to ” (8)” is obviously BULLSHIT and couldn’t be anything else and who knows with the Araucaria someone set for us (and the one Eileen gave us). I wonder why, on a page where people come to have clues explained, some think its great to set old clues with no solution, no crossing letters and no obvious way of looking up the answers? I came here for illumination, not more mystery.

    I had heard of GLIAL CELLS, although I’m not surprised others haven’t. The wordplay was quite clear though, as others have mentioned — although only really if you accept that “middle age” means ‘the middle of the word “age”‘ (which, patently, it doesn’t), or you’ve been trained to this dog-whistle.

     

     

47. Tony Collman @46

    Ouch! – my apologies: the answer to the Crucible clue is POPEYE.

    As for my ‘Spenser’s miscalled’ comment, I’ve tried to think of another way of saying it but failed, I’m afraid.

48. Late to the party, maybe someone will read this — Eileen will, for sure.

    Would somebody please tell me what LOVE GAME means?  Is it something you play online, as Eileen’s blog would imply?  The closest I could come in the grid was HOME GAME, which vaguely fit.

    And can we have the solutions to the mystery clues in31 (Auriga) and 40 (Gonzo)?  Thank you, Eileen, for POPEYE.  I was going to hunt it down (I do remember it now) but you’ve saved me the trouble.

    SET POINT made no sense at all to me until Eileen explained it, and now I think it’s my favorite.

    I couldn’t have told you what GLIAL CELLS were, but the phrase sounded like something I’d heard — more than I can say for DZHO.  Being a Yank, I find things like “stick it to The Man” very familiar.

49. Valentine @48

    A “love game” in tennis is a game in which the loser doesn’t score any points (love means nothing to tennis players!)

50. Thank you, muffin!

51. Hi Valentine – I’m sorry, I just assumed that people would know tennis terms 🙁

    I hope you understood muffin’s punning explanation of the seemingly bizarre scoring system – if not, this might be of some help: it’s the best I could find.

    My comment in the blog refers to the wordplay part of the clue: Hearts the card game is available online and, to my shame, I tend to fill in too many odd moments playing it.

     

52. Eileen — I know of course that “love” stands for zero, as it does somewhere in practically every Guardian puzzle, it seems, and muffin’s pun was nicely put.  But I’d never heard of a “love game” before.

53. Pun not original, I’m afraid!

54. Tony @46, re Spenser and REVILED

    I think the problem is that the clue could theoretically cut four ways, not just two:

    (1)  The admittedly rather strained [wordplay] of [definition] construction, which I wrongly went for and ended up with DELIVER;

    (2)  The correct solution – a reversal of a synonym for ‘serve’, giving a modern word which means the same as what Spenser meant by ‘miscalled’;

    (3)  As for (2), but with the solution being a hypothetical archaic word, as might have been used by Spenser, meaning the same as our modern usage of ‘miscalled’ (misnamed, or wrongly predicted);

    (4)  As for (1), but with the wordplay element being a reversal of [archaicised ‘modern miscalled’] rather than [modernised ‘archaic miscalled’].

    Eileen’s comment in the blog, if I understood her correctly, was to distinguish between (2) and (3).

55. @Eileen, thanks for saving me the trouble of looking up POPEYE. I was trying to remember it from another recent mention (when I think I did look it up). All I could recall was that it was really good and involved the solecistic ‘ye’. Thanks for bringing it to mind again. Definitely one for the little book.

    I’m sorry you can’t think how to rephrase about “miscalled” — I’m almost certain I’d agree with you if only I understood.

    I’ve just realized, looking back, that I wrongly remembered Boatman’s first draft of 3dn as not “Solution!” but “This?”, which I now think would have been ok, if too ambiguous compared with the final clue probably.

    @mffin, must remember that one. I’m guessing it’s well-known amongst tennis-lovers? Hats off if you just made it up.

56. *muffin*

57. I hadn’t solved Auriga’s clue when I posted the other ( did you purposely type 8 spaces Auriga?) but they are basically the same I think. Ask yourself “why have I not got the answer?”

58. @essexboy, thanks, we crossed. I think your analysis of the possibilities is right. I leave it to Eileen to say whether you’ve correctly interpreted ber words. In fact, in the ‘correct’ parsing, the word “on” makes me slightly uncomfortable, but I’m not sure why. I think I personally would prefer just ‘Spenser’s (or Edmund’s to add someone else idea in) miscalled returning serve’, with the surface meaning that a tennis player ‘has miscalled’ when returning a serve. I’ve never played or followed tennis seriously, so I don’t know if that works really though.

59. Thanks Tony.   From a ‘surface’ angle, I think I’d prefer the ‘is’ interpretation to the ‘has’ because to my mind miscall requires an object, grammatically. You would then, as with Boatman’s clue, have a picture of Spenser’s return shot being declared out by the line judge, even though clearly HE CANNOT BE SERIOUS, as the ball hit the baseline and THE CHALK FLEW UP!!  😉

60. Sorry, everyone – I got  lost along the way: essexboy seemed to be on the right lines, as far as I understood him – I really had expressed myself as clearly as I could – but Tony Collman’s and essexboy’s additions made me think we were not really talking about the same thing.

    After spending a considerable time during the past week pondering and revising my initial draft of last weekend, written immediately after solving the puzzle, and coming up with what I thought of as a fair appraisal, giving credit where I thought it was due, I don’t really have anything else to add, so I’m going to call it a day now.

    Many thanks for all your comments. 😉

61. In support of one of Tony’s points @ 46 it seems to me that leaving a crossword without understanding an answer is more of a dnf than confirming that answer in a dictionary.

62. Re Gonzo@40 and JinA@16: A characteristic of most solvers (especially those who come to 15squared) is that we don’t like to move on until all has been explained. So can someone please tell me where “I am not a setter’s bootlace” comes from, and/or what it means?

    I hardly ever watch tennis (although I suspect live matches would be good therapy for my arthritic neck), but I did enjoy the theme – pace Eileen.

    Not knowing The Faerie Queen, REVILED remained undelivered, therefore it’s a DNF for me. Nevertheless an enjoyable and informative puzzle and blog, so thanks Boatman and Eileen.

63. The “return of serve” idea is great, so it seems perverse therefore to spoil it rather with such an obscure definition for the answer. As boatman himself admits, there is no player called “Spenser”, so why go there

64. The answers, for what it’s worth:

    (8) is CLUELESS and

    (1,6,3,1,4) is I HAVENT GOT A CLUE

     

65. Thank you, Auriga.

66. Biggles A & Tony @46. We all have different standards, as was discussed exhaustively in May, to the irritation of some! I don’t like trawling through a dictionary unless I have already accepted defeat. Similarly with googling. This is not to say I disapprove of those who do so. It’s just my personal way of using the puzzle as a challenge. In the case of miscalled, it was clear that looking up the word would inevitably give me the answer. Or thinking of a synonym for serve and reversing it. But I didn’t. Call me posh if you like! (Sorry, Tony. Don’t understand what you mean by posh any more than you understand me! As Eileen pointed out, we’re all different.)

67. Thank you sheffield hatter. Point taken, that’s why I used the words ‘it seems to me’.

68. [Gonzo@40 and cellomaniac@62: not sure if you will return here to have your curious questions satisfied, but I actually have no idea where that saying comes from – I suspect it’s a variation on one of my Mum’s. (I have three typed pages of things Mum used to say, including many quaint expressions). I could be making this up, but I think she used “I am not a _________’s” bootlace to indicate something where she was not very proficient – in the instances I recall I think the context was about her rudimentary cooking and sewing skills, viz. “I’m not a cook’s bootlace” or “I’m not a seamstress’ bootlace”. But I can’t find any reference to the use of “bootlaces” to describe a situation where one doesn’t measure up or isn’t a patch on the experts, so it might be a saying I just invented for the purpose.]

69. sheffield hatter @66, I don’t usually turn to references until I’ve done all I can without them, and then, having worked out one judiciously chosen clue to take assistance with, I will try and continue without if there are more clues to solve. However, I don’t call it “not finishing” at that stage, but only when I can’t fill in any more boxes even with all the resources at my disposal (as with this puzzle). I’m not quite clear whether you are saying that having declared your blind attempt at the puzzle a failure, you do then go on to use aids to fill in the rest, in which case I think it’s just a question of how you interpret the word ‘finish’, isn’t it? If, however, you just leave the boxes blank and Chambers on the shelf, that is what I’m saying I can’t understand. The reference to poshness was based on the idea that the upper classes do not pick up tools or operate machinery. I’m not sure if that really extends (or perhaps rather, extended) to reference books. I’m happy to accept that you are in fact no posher than me!

    @Julie, I wonder if your mum was using a corruption of the standard(?) formula “not fit to _______ a ________’s _________”? An example with bootlaces would be “He’s not fit to tie a footballer’s bootlaces”. To indicate you have very poor crossword-setting skills, you might perhaps say, e.g. “I’m not fit to fetch a setter’s dictionaries” or similar. Does anyone else recognise this formula or have I just imagined it?

70. Agree, Tony.  I was just going to reply to JinA with a similar theme -“not fit to tie his bootlaces”

71. Dave, thanks. I think now it may just be that fixed expression and I imagined the rest.

72. Thanks JinA and others, it does sound like a variation on ‘You’re not fit to shine his shoes’.

73. Am I the only person who wondered whether Spencer Gore (misspelled) was relevant?

74. Very likely.

75. I’m a non-rhotic speaker (from Lancashire) and ‘caught’ and ‘court’ are still not homophonous to me.

76. I am a non-rhotic speaker, from Lancashire, and CAUGHT and COURT are still not homophonous to me.

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