Guardian 28,286 / Carpathian

93 comments on “Guardian 28,286 / Carpathian”

1. There are 11 Robbie Williams songs threaded through the answers. Angels, Strong, Kids, Millennium, Bodies, Feel, United, Tripping, Gospel, Losers, Eternity.

2. Thanks to Carpathian, and of course to Eileen, who I had nailed on as as ardent Robert Williams fan

3. Thank you, Andy. How wrong can you be, baerchen? 😉

4. Well spotted Andy. I was thinking it was themed around the defeated incumbent with BITTER, SUPEREGO, TEST CASE, COMBAT, LOSERS and dare I venture KNOB. He also owns a golf course in the BRONX, which didn’t bring him any CHEER, as he lost stacks of money on it this year. Ta Eileen and Carpathian for a very enjoyable solve.

5. Andy @1 Good spot. Some might think that SUPEREGO and KNOB may also relate to the theme.

6. Nice one Penfold!

7. Eileen. You may be interested to know that Julius once had the clue “Palestinian community in Texas famous for producing raspberries” with THE BRONX as solution. (This was way back on March 29, 2017.)

8. Obviously on a totally different wavelength today – needed quite a bit of help with that and really see now that I shouldn’t have done.

   Not a snowball’s of ever getting the theme so won’t even try!

   Thanks Carpathian and Eileen!

9. Yes this was a very likeable puzzle. I ticked 11a BELL RINGER too, Eileen, as well as 24a KIDS, 26a SEASONED and 5d BRONX CHEER. I totally missed the Robbie Williams and Trump themes!!! Never mind; I still had fun. Thanks to Andy, Alan C and Penfold. [I am not ashamed that I didn’t know the Robbie Williams songs as I am, like Penfold and Eileen, not a fan.] Thank you also to Carpathian for the crossword. How lucky are we to have Eileen for three blogs in a row! Many thanks to her for the time and effort she puts into writing up the solutions.

10. Thanks both. Robbie who?
    Congrats, Eileen, no typos!

11. Shirl @10 – and today I feel no shame re the theme!

12. Am I the only one who thought there were too many loose definitions for a Monday?

13. I missed the theme because I don’t know any R Williams songs!

    New for me: BRONX CHEER

    Thanks, Carpathian and Eileen!

14. It’s certainly a BRONX CHEER from me to Robbie Williams.   Last but one in and needed all the crossers before working out where the X might fit.  The theme, as identified by Andy, is certainly a way to be brought down to earth after the joys the weekend delivered.

    I’m in agreement with our blogger on SUPEREGO which has a nice surface and GREETING which assembled nicely.  Favourite probably TEST CASE for the anagrind, surface and the potential to be misled by ‘action’.  (At least, it misled me initially).  For an unusual word, it’s interesting that variants of TESSELATE/tesserae linked with tile have arisen several times in my recent solving experience.

    AlanC @4: I have to say I think I prefer your theme to the one the setter seems to have had in mind.  And throw in BEAT IT as kindly advice to the Loser.

    Thanks Carpathian and Eileen (have you gone full time?)

15. JinA and PostMark – this has been one of those weekends where my weekly blogging slot, which advances by one day each week, coincides with my monthly Saturday slot. I haven’t worked out the Maths as to how often. You’ll get someone different tomorrow, then me next Tuesday.

16. As a fully paid up wrinkly, I didnt get the theme either. I’m not sure we should be quite so keen to celebrate our ignorance. Mr Williams is most likely to be fondly remembered by someone in their late thirties or early 40s. I think they deserve a look-in now and again. As Guardian readers we should welcome leaving our comfort zone. Unless of course crosswords are only somebody with a bus pass. Well done Carpathian. How about some hip hop next time you are allowed out. Thanks as always to Eileen.

17. Yes, precise point about envelop[e]s, Eileen, though I didn’t notice it at the time. Quite a chewy Carpathian I thought, not at all a Monday write-in (cf the Quiptic where you can feel Pasquale taking his foot off). Wondered a bit about the etym. of knob for idiot. Love how local argot works its way into the lexicon, eg Bronx cheer [and Fremantle Doctor, ta for that steer to the Sunday Indie, PostMark!]. Thanks both.

18. Good, precise cluing as ever from Carpathian.

    I took longer than I should have to get the 24s dds. Having said that, I particularly liked KIDS, and GELATO.

    I think there should really have been a US indicator for BRONX CHEER – I’ve never heard of it but the dictionaries seem to indicate it’s NA.

    Thanks Carpathian and Eileen.

19. Phillip@16, as a recent sexagenarian, I am prepared to admit that RW is one of my guilty secrets. He has written some excellent toons over the years, although I totally missed the theme in this offering.

20. Thanks to Carpathian and to overworked Eileen for the excellent blog as usual.

    ‘A real Bronx cheer’ was printed on whoopee cushions.

21. Pedro @12 – No.

22. A trickier Monday puzzle than the norm and the better for it.  I took a while to parse the crafty GREETING.  The theme wouldn’t have dawned in a thousand years as I’m not familiar with the gamut of his work.  Worked out the BRONX CHEER without knowing the expression which was satisfying.

     

23. Grantinfreo @ 17, the etymology is one of the hundreds of slang terms for the male anatomy.

    Thanks to Carpathian for the fun and Eileen for the blog.

    Theme? What theme?

24. I take no interest in Robbie Willams (Tony Williams is very special however)

    but i did like the puzzle, blog and comments.

    Thanks y’all.

     

25. I was on the setters wavelength, so this went in very quickly. Although at the easy end, the cluing was still tight and precise (for example, I’ve never heard the phrase BRONX CHEER but the cluing still allowed me to get it – an appropriate response to the outgoing POTUS?). Fun start to the week.

    Obviously, I never got the theme, even though the current Mrs Soze has seen him live several times!

    Thanks Carpathian and Eileen.

26. Enjoyable shift up from the usual Monday fare.

    Theme blind, of course, never thought to look.

    Not sure about KNOB = idiot.  Can’t see it in Chambers but perhaps it’s yoofspeak.

    Many thanks, Eileen and Carpathian.

27. This was a delightful start to the week. I am proud to have missed the theme. I didn’t click that bar = cake but guessed 3dn from the rest of it. Favourite clue was 20ac.

     

    Thanks Carpathian and Eileen.

28. William @26 – Chambers 12th Edition: ‘a stupid person (sl)’

29. Wiliam @26. It’s a very, very long time since I was a yoof, but KNOB for idiot has long been part of my vocabulary (and so have other slang synonyms for the male generative organ). Perhaps it’s a (lack of) class thing…

30. William @26 & gif @17: I think it arose not that long ago in the blog in reference to Lord Hereford’s Knob which is both a modest mountain in Wales – with superb views, a Half Man Half Biscuit song and the source of many a fit of schoolboy giggles.

31. Did the quiptic first which I enjoyed then turned to this. Found it more difficult and did resort to a few reveals at the end (I was getting tired) – but after they were revealed I managed to parse them all and so wondered why I had not managed to work them out in the first place. The exception was GREETING which I guessed from the first bit – but did not spot the tin/can.

    Thanks to Eileen and Carpathian

32. One of the things I miss during lockdown (and indeed the lesser restrictions which preceded it) has been bellringing, so BELLRINGER pleased me.

    I got 1dn 2dn 3dn fairly quickly and was looking forward to a Nina along the lines of GOD BE PRAISED TRUMP HAS LOST but it was not to be. Which will have been good for the blood pressure of at least one of our number. Though as AlanC @4 points out, you can find the orange toddler in there if you look.

    Enjoyable crossword. Thanks to Carpathian and to Eileen for pointing out the theme to this musical ignoramus (I don’t affect pride about it, I just acknowledge it)

33. While not quite a protracted struggle, for me this was the trickiest Monday for some time. Maybe just a wavelength thing. My theme-spotting is moderate at the best of times and it sure didn’t help me here!

34. A bit of a workout for Monday perhaps due to loose definitions as pointed out by Pedro@12 – “Infernal” for CURSED, “Fixed” for STEADIED and “main parts” for BODIES.  Loved the economy of KIDS.  On balance an enjoyable test.

    Thanks Eileen – you deserve a break – and Carpathian.

35. Eileen @15:  whenever someone says ‘I haven’t done the maths’ I get an uncontrollable urge to do just that, even when I know that others are better qualified.  If your Fri/Mon appearances are on a lunar cycle, and ‘Eileen Saturday’ happens once a calendar month, that would suggest that our ‘three-Eileens-in-a-row’ treat, like Christmas, comes but once a year (?)

    Regarding envelop/envelope (you and ginf @17) – I thought it was wrong, but wiktionary says the latter can be an archaic spelling of the former, and has a lovely quotation from 1877 to back it up, which I can’t resist citing in full:

    ‘Again, if the plane of the impressed couple intersects the mean plane between N and C, it will envelope the cone whose focals are ON, ON?, and whose internal axis is therefore OA.’

    Alan C @19, glad you put your head above the parapet!  Though from the majority reaction it looks like you, me, Mrs Soze, Carpathian and Kylie are the uncool kids.

    Thanks Carpathian and Eileen.

36. Penfold @20 – and still is https://www.partydelights.co.uk/product-detail.aspx?ProductID=FAVOCUSH&gclid=Cj0KCQiA7qP9BRCLARIsABDaZzis8XOqyR2bn8bDee9nSWQ8EdUD5kgg_po09OHyvjPExt0Iih6-KKAaAp3cEALw_wcB

     

37. When my first solutions that went in were GREETING, TRIPPING, FEEL, BITTER and TESSELLATE I began to think that there was going to be some kind of double consonant theme here. Soon realised that was not the case, and completely missed the Robbie Williams one…

38. Double letters, in fact…

39. Ronald @37. Ah, but Robbie Williams himself has double letters, so you were not wrong!

40. …and MILLENNIUM has double-double letters! (And you didn’t mention ESPRESSO & BELL RINGER, either.)

41. essexboy @35 – you’ve got me started now!

    ‘If your Fri/Mon appearances are on a lunar cycle …’ They’re not. The last time this happened was June 22, twenty weeks ago.

42. BRONX CHEER was one of my first in, and a bit of a gimme (definition, enumeration and an X in the fodder) – it’s just one of those things I came across a long time ago and have never forgotten. I thought the two 24s were the hardest clues to unravel, which can often be the case with four letter words. I also struggled with LOSERS and CURSED, which both required thinking of a word (with a loose definition), changing a letter and making another word (also loosely defined). But don’t think I’m complaining: I’d much rather be racking my brains over this sort of clue than a cryptic definition or Spoonerism.

    Many thanks to Carpathian and, once again, to Eileen.

43. With a Quiptic from Pasquale and a cryptic from Carpathian, along with election results over here, the week is off to a great start. [Regarding the last, it’s been good to confirm that commenters around the world share my joy and relief. Apologies to all for the last four years!]

    I agree with Eileen about the clue for BITTER; perhaps ‘back of car’ would have been better. I also raised an eyebrow at ‘flowering’ as an anagrind and wondered briefly if I had been misspelling ‘envelops’ for all my life. A lot of fun on the whole, though, and I’m in a forgiving mood, so thanks to Carpathian and Eileen.

44. Doh, I considered rams for 24 but didn’t think of kids.

45. This was fun, and of the right difficulty level for a Monday (I clocked in at 14 minutes, which is fast but not particularly close to my record).  The theme eluded me, though to be fair, Mr. Williams doesn’t seem to sell very many records over here.  (I’m of the right age to have heard his music if he had–I’m 46, so when he was apparently big in the 90s and early 2000s, I was still going to the kind of bars and clubs where you hear current music–and even today, we make some effort to stay current.) His discography page on Wikipedia doesn’t even list US chart performance.

46. I’m glad nobody’s been unkind enough to suggest that 20a, 5d and 24d could be part of the theme.

47. I did actually have MILLENNIUM as well to begin with, but omitted to list it. And yes, sheffieldhatter@39 and @40, maybe there is after all another subtlety involved there. I notice too that you are rather well endowed with this double consonant possession! I hadn’t got as far as ESPRESSO and BELL RINGER initially to expand my suspicion further, however…

48. Peter & Ant – good thinking, but I’m afraid AlanC @4 got there first!

49. Eileen @41. By my reckoning it’s your Saturdays that are on a lunar cycle (20 June, 18 July, …7 November). Your weekdays come around every 35 days. So the next Fri/Sat/Mon should be 26, 27 and 29 March, 20 weeks away. (Common factor of 35 and 28 is 7, obviously, so 4×5=20.)

50. [Ronald @47. Nice one! My real (first) name also has a double consonant.]

51. Since the puzzle drops at 7pm Eastern (US) time, and I don’t usually see the blog till the next morning when there are tons of comments already, part of my puzzling amusement is to predict what the main discussion points will have been.  This puzzle seemed quite uncontroversial, so apart from possibly KNOB I couldn’t imagine what I’d be reading about.  You guys came through, anyway.

52. AlanC@4 and PostMark @14 – I agree with your preferred theme, but I wonder whether PostMark’s generous BEAT IT could be split more in line with the parsing BE A TIT to describe the reference?

53. DaveinNC @43. I liked flowering as anagrind. It seems to me that it channels the way that a bud changes as it opens, ending up with something that no longer looks anything like a bud, having become a flower.

54. Anyone who didn’t enjoy KNOB has a heart of stone, I say.

    I completely missed the theme, and my favourite non-genitalia-referencing clue was TESSELLATE. A very nice construction from Carpathian, I thought.

55. In general, a clockwise progression from SW to SE for me. An easy start getting harder and harder, with, as has been pointed out, some loose definitions and tricky four letter words in the south east. I did eventually reason my way to KIDS.

    I enjoyed BE( )A( )T IT, which was nicely self-referencing (with apologies to all Americans bar one).

56. [Eileen @41 / sh @49, oops!  Thanks sh for getting the maths right.]

57. NeilH at 32.  Did you know that you can ring on line?

    https://www.ringingroom.com/

     

     

58. A tricky Monday for me with the SE corner requiring several reveals — there was much to enjoy — BEAT IT, SEASONED, ANGELS, and the popular SUPEREGO. [The latter reminds me of a beer vendor at a baseball game who’s beverage box had “No ID, NO BEER” printed on it. I remarked that it should have read, “NO SUPEREGO, NO BEER.”]
    As far as the theme goes, I never heard of Robbie Williams so the names of his songs were just words to me. Thanks to both.

59. DNF because of the SE corner. An early class distinction for me was between those who thought a /nob/ was an aristocrat (from nabob) and those who thought it was an idiot from … (best not say)

    Funny how it’s always the four letter words that stump you.

60. Anybody besides Tony Santucci and me who’s never heard of Robbie Williams?

    Eileen’s link to BRONX CHEER has a further link to Joe Btfsplk, a character in the long-lamented Li’l Abner comic strip.  Joe was a one-man jinx who traveled with a permanent raincloud over his head and brought bad luck wherever he went.  He is also the source of the curse called a “whammy,” and the particularly malevolent “double whammy,” a phrase still used today, probably by many people who don’t remember Joe at all.  He’s in the BRONX CHEER paragraph because that’s how his name is pronounced, as he explained once in the comic strip.

    I don’t think any birds in the US are called “tits” (though I defer to ornithologists or birdwatchers); we call them chickadees, whose name derives from its parent language Chickadee; the bird call sounds like “chick-a-dee dee dee.”

    In the UK I think “tin” and “can” are interchangeable, but in the US they aren’t.  A can is what comes from the supermarket with soup or sardines in it, and which you throw away or recycle once you’ve eaten the contents.  A tin has a separate, removable lid which you can store things in (a deflated balloon, for instance, if you’re Eeyore, another link on the BRONX CHEER entry).  Some food, mostly cookies/biscuits I think, comes in tins, which you can then reuse.  I have one in my fridge that I refill with dry cat food — I keep it in the fridge because my last cat could find it on any shelf, no matter how high, and knock it off to make it spill.

    Neither tins nor cans are made of tin these days, but steel.

    Thank you Carpathian for the puzzle and Eileen for the ever-delightful blog.  I’m glad somebody has done the math for the puzzle cycle.  I’m glad it wasn’t me.

61. Valentine @60, until today I hadn’t heard of him.  Like I said, he never managed to make a dent in the U.S. market.  This article says he is a one-hit wonder in the US–apparently he’s almost literally given up trying here.  It’s funny how things like that work–some British artists get huge here, and some just don’t translate.  There doesn’t seem to be any rhyme or reason to it.  That works in reverse too.

    [And on the subject of your cat food–we keep ours in a top cupboard.  The cat in question can climb on shelves, and open cupboards, but can’t do both at once.]

62. Valentine @60

    Tin can have both of those meanings in the UK. In the Picaroon puzzle that I blogged on Saturday, we had ‘one baked in a tin’ as part of the clue for BEAN (confusingly, a loaf tin is what you bake bread in!) but we also have biscuit tins like yours, to store biscuits in. We also store cakes in them, in which case we call them cake tins – but a cake tin is also what you would bake a cake in (cf loaf tin). I hope that’s clear. 😉

63. [Gerardus @57; What with Biden, a COVID vaccine and online bell-ringing, you’ve just made my day complete.]

64. Crumbs Eileen @62: have you gone cream crackers?  Or are you just trying to get a rise out of our US friends?  Can can be tin or half a can can, can’t it?  Tin’t right.  It’s just some half-baked theory, if you use your loaf.  Doesn’t that take the biscuit…  I’ll get my coat…

65. [PostMark @64: Far too many puns to DIGESTive.  Of course, in the US, biscuits really aren’t biscuits at all but you’d be COOKIE not to know that.  Borrow your coat?]

66. [MB @65: gateauxone of your own!]

67. Valentine@60 The tit part are not ‘American’ birds, ‘American’ is the ‘a’ part of the solution. See Eileen’s hint, she explains it far better!

68. Enjoyable Monday fare which I did not find any more difficult than normal.
    No idea of the theme, but I did start humming ‘Millennium’ as I entered the answer in the grid. So half a point for that.
    Had not heard of the raspberry, particularly enjoyed 24a.
    Thanks to Eileen for the blog.

69. Valentine @60

    “Tins” were never made of tin – they were made of steel with a very thin coating of tin on the inside to prevent the iron from reacting with the contents. (Incidentally that’s why they used to break down so quickly; water in scratches created an electrochemical cell in which the more reactive iron was eaten away.)

    Nowadays many are made from aluminium, as it’s in practice unreactive and much lighter.

    Thanks for explaining BITTER. Eileen. BELL RINGER was my favourite too. Thanks also to Carpathian, my favourite Quiptic setter.

70. [MaidenBartok @65: when speakers of eastern-hemisphere English hear that a popular breakfast here is called “biscuits and gravy,” I’m sure they must throw up a little.  Here, what you call a biscuit is a cookie if it’s sweet, and a cracker if it’s not.  So, we’re CRACKERS over here as well as pretty COOKIE.]

    [Eileen, what we bake in here is usually called a baking pan, or maybe a baking dish if it’s glass or ceramic. You can get more specific:  a pie pan is shaped like a pie, a cake pan is designed for making cake, etc.  The generic “pan,” though, is usually used for the type with a handle that goes on the stovetop–the other types need a modifier.]

     

71. MaidenBartok @63. Delighted to see your response. On line ringing is not quite the same as real ringing, (in fact hugely different), but just as challenging. I hope NeilH picks up the link.

72. [mrpenney @70

    You’ve  reminded me of when I was staying with a friend in Minneapolis. She had a Minnesota recipe book. Everything in it was called “hot dish”, and it appeared you just put more or less what you liked in a pan and shoved it in the overn until it was soft enough to eat!]

73. Quite enjoyed this, esp: SEASONED, BRONX CHEER, TESSELLATE, ETERNITY

    I read BELL RINGER as a dd (thus each half of clue underlined)… but yes, could also see as cd (in which case shouldn’t whole clue be underlined?).

    Valentine, re birds: Here in CA we have the wrentit and oak titmouse, which I think are close enough… though really doesn’t matter since the parsing isn’t “American bird”=TIT, just “bird”=TIT, with “American” separately providing “A”.

    And speaking of that, have a much greater appreciation of the nuance in BEAT IT… thanks, Andy Luke, et al 🙂

    Echoing DinC, after a BITTER year (seemed an ETERNITY), I FEEL STEADIED by recent events; hope we all find our better ANGELS, and stay UNITED in COMBAT against the KNOBS who would make LOSERS of us all.

    Hats off to our setter/blogger/commenters. And with US Thanksgiving just around the corner, SEASONED GREETINGs to everyone 😉

74. mrpenney So what is the Tin Pan in Tin Pan Alley?

75. [mrpenney @70; I’ve had said biscuits-and-gravy many times Stateside – I’m (usually) a very frequent visitor and lived for a few years in the Bay Area.  I sit here with a bowl of tortilla, some Gold Fish and a vat of Pico de gallo.  The one I still can’t get on with though is grits – sorry!

    When my son went to school in the US aged 9, he came home first week and said “hono(u)r roll breakfast, 7am Friday; bring cider.”  CIDER???  Over ‘ere that’s the stuff drunk by the yobbos on a Friday evening.   Turns out that “Cider” over there is non-alcoholic.  Whoops.

    “Two nations separated by a common language” but we’ll have your PEOTUS any day over our hapless dimwit.]

    [Geradus @71; I’d just started learing change-ringing pre-lockdown…  Can’t wait to get back to it.]

76. mrpenny @ 70 – so now you’ve thrown pans into the pot. [I really didn’t intend that pun but it’s reminded me that, when I lived in Northern Ireland, I found that folk there called what I knew as saucepans ‘pots’ – but let’s not go there.]

    I’ve done a bit of research and discovered that the waters are muddier than I thought. I’d dismissed your pie / cake pans but now find, on one of my favourite websites madeleine pans – but muffin tins.

    I’m going to leave it there – it’s clearly a can of worms.

     

     

77. One more note… thought “bottom of car” was fine, taking “bottom” as rear or butt, rather than underside.

    [MaidenBartok, I think we have US temperance/prohibition to thank for the cider conundrum. As I understand it, in early American days apple varieties were prolific, and true (i.e. alcoholic) ciders were the wine and champagne of the day. But with prohibition, cider became essentially just fresh pressed apple juice. Recently there’s been a trend around traditional “hard” cider over here… not unlike our craft beer movement though not nearly so widespread (yet?).]

    [Eileen, we also have cookie sheets, baking trays, cake rings, and even the Dutch oven… all about as clear as mud-pie 😉 ]

78. [And speaking of pie, how could I forget to mention the humble “pie plate” as well…]

79. [Eileen @76: Wouldn’t that be a “tin of worms?”]

80. [Tony Santucci @79 – not over here it wouldn’t! See here.]

81. Surely time to can this discussion?

82. Hear hear.  Tinnie anyone?

83. I loved this! I’m afraid, however, that once I had BRONX CHEER, LOSERS, SUPEREGO and KNOB, I had the same idea about the theme as Alan at 4…
    Even though I quite like Robbie Williams’ stuff. Admittedly the guy himself can be a bit of a 24D at times, but he’s come out with some brilliant songs which I’ve been known to hum (though I’ll never manage that interval in Angels with his aplomb…)
    Hearty thanks to Carpathian and Eileen

84. Got the theme, but have to admit that my initial reaction was to shout ‘minnellium!’, in honour of the late great Victoria Wood in ‘dinnerladies’!

85. Thanks to Eileen for the excellent blog and to PostMark/MaidenBartok for the belly laughs.
    What a great few days we’ve had … first Biden, then a COVID vaccine. It feels like Christmas!

86. Like Dr WhatsOn@51 I come to the blog late, so I am seldom able to participate. But I thoroughly the conversations, which prompts the following pair of quasi-haiku – 2 575’s for 225:

    essexboy, PostMark,

    sheffield hatter and Penfold

    keep the blog witty

    Eileen, JinA

    Anna and Dr WhatsOn

    Keep blog erudite

    (With apologies to all the other w & e bloggers whom I couldn’t fit into these six short lines.)

     

     

87. [Princess V@85: Having lived in Washington, DC for 40 years I’m afraid that neither Biden nor the COVID vaccine will work as promised.]

88. [OddOtter @77: I’ve just written to Mr Biden suggesting that he should consider introducing Hard Cider at Santa Clara Unifed School District.  I’ll let you know how that goes…  I do miss Martinelli’s fine apple juice and they also have a sparkling hard cider but it is far too sweet for my tastes.  I prefer the still, very dry cider we have form Kent and Somerset].

89. [MaidenBartok: Was initially surprised/puzzled by the Santa Clara Unified ref, then reread your earlier comment… PDM as I realized I’d overlooked your Bay Area comment.  Have been in the area 30yrs myself, having worked in Santa Clara, Cupertino, Mtn View, et al… currently live near Redwood City.  Have nephews in Sunnyvale who love Martinelli’s… almost always on hand at family gatherings.  But my own fond memory is of childhood in Michigan, where fall meant trips to the local cider mill for fresh pressed hot cider and hot-from-the-fryer donuts…mmmmmm!!!  More recently, have enjoyed some quite sophisticated still/dry ciders… almost white wine like, and apparently reminiscent of some of the pre-prohibition brews.  Anyway, thanks for sharing… helps me feel a bit less distanced from the 15^2 community.]

90. [OddOtter @89: Spent 2010-2015 living/working in Santa Clara for a large 5-letter networking company who’s theme song was very close to the Ottawan’s 1980 hit.]

91. Eileen @62 Over here we bake cakes in cake pans.   I don’t know what we store them in — I’ve never heard of a cake tin.

    HoofitYouDonkey@67 and OddOtter@73  I understood the parsing, I was just sprinkling in some ornithonymics.

    Eileen @76 — great fun on the cake pan/tin website.  But why is the muffin tin called a mini sandwich tin?

    OddOtter @77 I think these days “cider” means unfiltered apple juice, usually most available in the fall after the main apple harvest, and “apple juice” means the pallid filtered stuff.

92. Valentine @91 – I’m not sure how your comment also ended up on this thread !

    This is what our cake tins (for storage) look like.

93. [Valentine, re cider: Yes, I think that’s essentially correct. E.g., in Pennsylvania (much in the news of late) apparently the legal defn of apple cider, while not explicitly mentioning non-filtration, does require it to be “opaque”. Also of note: in areas where soft cider is common, “cider” alone often implies hard cider, while “apple cider” implies soft.]

    [MaidenBartok: DNK Ottawan… but had a guess re the company, confirmed by googling the group 🙂 For my part, worked several places, incl. an iFruit industry leader (tho in pre “i” days), and an “exceedingly small and squishy” SW giant.]

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