Guardian Cryptic 28,317 by Tramp

by

THe puzzle may be found at https://www.theguardian.com/crosswords/cryptic/28317.

That took a time to complete – there is nothing outlandish, but a whole lot of meaty clues that too me some work to elucidate, There are also some amusing surfaces thrown in (which perhaps says something about my feelings on the significance of surfaces).

ACROSS
1 ESTHER Atmosphere surrounding son and woman (6)
An envelope (‘surrounding’) of S (‘son’) in ETHER (‘atmosphere’). Many dislike the imprecision of such a definition as here.
4 BRUSHED Did kiss with lots of activity in bed (7)
An envelope (‘in’) of RUSH (‘lots of activity’) in ‘bed’.
9 TWITCHERS Cuckoo with crest? They’ll be excited (9)
An anagram (‘cuckoo’) of ‘with crest’. THe TWITCHERS in question are bird-watchers, particularly those intent on spotting rare species; thus the clue has an extended definition.
10 BIDEN Wait to get new president (5)
A charadde of BIDE (‘wait’) plus N (‘new’). As of now, the definition must be extended!.
11 NEHRU Republican female reflected: ‘Trump essentially a one-time leader‘ (5)
A charade of NEHR, a reversal (‘reflected’) of R (‘Republican’) plus HEN (‘female’); plus U (‘trUmp essentially’).
12 INTERSECT Cross from wing with Italian team taking the lead (9)
A charade of INTER (Milan, ‘Italian team’, which we had just yesterday) plus SECT (‘wing’); taking the lead’ gives the order of the particles.
13 AUCTION Here trade union breaking up conflict (7)
An envelope (‘breaking up’) of U (‘union’) in ACTION (‘conflict’)..
15 PIGEON Detective with details about ordinary victim (6)
A charade of PI (Private Investigator, ‘detective’) plus GEON, an envelope (‘about’) of O (‘ordinary’) in GEN (‘details’); a PIGEON is the ‘victim’ of a scam.
17 HEREOF Concerning this love, female after present (6)
A charade of HERE (‘present’) plus O (‘love’, tennis) plus F (‘female’).
19 BALLS-UP Pubs struggling over complete mess (5-2)
An envelope (‘over’) of ALL (‘complete’) in BSUP, an anagram (‘struggling’) of ‘pubs’.
22 BLUEPRINT Model is erotic type (9)
A charade of BLUE (‘erotic’) plus PRINT (‘type’).
24 EVERT Green on back of course to turn outwards (5)
A charade of E (‘back of coursE‘). plus VERT (French and heraldic, ‘green’).
26 ACRES Loads of room in a short top (5)
A charade of ‘a’ plus CRES[t] (‘top’) minus the last letter (‘short’).
27 WHOLESOME Clean ladies mostly tackling pores (9)
An envelope (‘tackling’) of HOLES (‘pores’) in WOME[n] (‘ladies’) minus the last letter (‘mostly’).
28 ELDERLY Old tree, leafy on both sides (7)
A charade of ELDER (‘tree’) plus LY (‘LeafY on both sides’).
29 DECENT Not completely nude — centrefold’s wearing clothes! (6)
A hidden answer (‘not completely’) in ‘nuDE CENTrefold’.
DOWN
1 ESTONIA Land by crashing into sea (7)
An anagram (‘crashing’) of ‘into sea’.
2 THIGH Model’s tall, showing bit of leg (5)
A charade of T (Ford ‘model’) plus HIGH (‘tall’).
3 EXCLUSIVE Private lives: topless sex club’s regulars drunk (9)
An anagram (‘drunk’) of ‘lives’ plus ‘[s]ex’ minus its first letter (‘topless’) plus CU (‘ClUb’s regulars’).
4 BUS STOP Bowled with field around me: one that’s driven is caught here? (3,4)
An envelope (‘around’) of US (colloquially, ‘me’) in B (‘bowled’) plus STOP (‘field’).
5 UNBAR One pub that’s free (5)
A charade of UN (dialect, ‘one’) plus BAR (‘pub’).
6 HEDGEROWS They might run around a lawn with rackets? Cash ultimately with advantage first (9)
A charade of H (‘casH ultimately’) plus EDGE (‘advantage’) plus ROWS (‘rackets’).
7 DONATE Mafia boss had to chip in (6)
A charade of DON (‘Mafia boss’) plus ATE (‘had’ – “Caesar had some jam for tea”).
8 MEDIAN Maybe press name central figure (6)
A charade of MEDIA (‘maybe press’) plus N (‘name’).
14 CHEQUERED With fluctuations of fortune, order to move money on roulette bet? (9)
A charade of CHEQUE (‘order to move money’) plus RED (‘roulette bet?’).
16 GOLDENEYE Billed one with German antique clock (9)
A charade of G (‘German’) plus OLDEN (‘antique’) plus EYE (‘clock’ in the sense of see), for a duck (with a bill).
18 FAIRWAY Blonde to approach best place for swingers? (7)
A charade of FAIR (‘blonde’) plus WAY (‘approach’); the ‘swingers’ are swinging golf clubs.
19 BUTTON Horn working for racing driver (6)
A charade of BUTT (‘horn’, verb, to hit with the head) plus ON (‘working’), for the British racing driver Jenson Alexander Lyons Button.
20 PATIENT Lace set in short knickers, like one hanging in there (7)
AN envelope (‘set in’) of TIE (‘lace’, verb, of shoes, say) in PANT[s] or PANT[ies] (‘knickers’) minus one – or more – final letter (‘short’).
21 ABLATE Remove organ from dead sailor first (6)
A charade of AB (able-bodied ‘sailor’) plus LATE (‘dead’). I knew ABLATE in the sense of wear down, but it can also mean to remove an organ surgically.
23 POSER Model in advert having no time (5)
A subtraction: POS[t]ER (‘advert’) minus the T (‘having no time’).
25 EVOKE Woman who sinned spread over magazine to excite (5)
An envelope (‘spread over’) of OK (with an exclamation mark, ‘magazine’) in EVE (‘woman who sinned’).

 

image of grid

100 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 28,317 by Tramp”

  1. The SW held me up longest… don’t know many racing drivers and couldn’t get horn as verb = butt, so cheated on that one, so then blueprint emerged, which raised a chortle. Bus stop took a bit of parsing…wonder if other languages have the colloquial ‘us’ for me. Goldeneye was another quirky Trampism..could’t be further from the clue’s surface. Chewy but not at all indigestible, and quite tasty, thanks both.

  2. I got the answers but made a bit of a 19a of the parsing… One French pub might be free; field = stop seems a bit of a stretch; and I doubt that “hereof” read thus would stand up in court. But many thanks to PeterO for making things clear, and only the slightest of grumbles to Tramp about what was otherwise great fun.

  3. I threw in Hedgehogs for the things that run around a garden. Just assumed that the parsing was beyond me and didn’t bother to check all. I felt a bit of a tool when I came here for clarification.

  4. If only my life was as full of models as this puzzle was …

    Some nice surfaces, as PeterO says, but some others, like 4d and 6d, too contrived. Some of the synonyms were a bit too stretchy for my liking (especially us=me in BUS STOP without qualification).

  7. [Clue 11a uses ‘hen’ for ‘female’. I have no problem with that but in this context, please allow me to record an experience of mine.
    As a member of a Facebook crossword group, I chose the word SEX KITTEN and wrote a clue for it. A couple of lady members ‘reported’ me to the owner and moderator as they were offended by my choice of the word and also the clue. They even wanted me to apologise but I said ‘nothing doing’ and left the group. In Collins.
    ‘hen’ for ‘female’ is indeed marked “informal, derogatory, often offensive.”
    Should its use in a clue like this be considered unacceptable?
    Where do we draw the line?
    Is it that some people are more intolerant than others?
    Opinions invited.]

  8. At 4 Dr WhatsOn has gently pointed out the use of T for ‘model’ in three clues. Nothing wrong but avoidance of any such repetition for a single letter component may be advisable.
    However, when we write thirty clues for a puzzle, concentrating on one at a time, we may not notice the repetition. What we could do is to put our finished clues in a ‘word duplicate finder’ which will show the occurrences. We can rewrite the clues if we want.
    I have come across an app called Repetition Detector. There might be others. One such – a nifty one at that – was there but it has since disappeared, it seems.]

  9. It may seem a really minor quibble but I baulk at ALL being synonymous with COMPLETE. I get that ‘completely’ doesn’t help the surface but that is the synonym. ‘All’ doesn’t play for Adjective United or Verb Athletic.

  10. A game of two halves for me . . . quite a few write-ins followed by a lot of head-scratching. Favourites were TWITCHERS, HEDGEROWS and WHOLESOME. Many thanks to Tramp and PeterO.

  11. Rishi: you obviously didn’t do the puzzle, did you? Model might be in three clues but only once does it denote T: unless I’ve miscounted. Thanks for the advice though. It’s always great to see new names on here having a pop.

    All can be an adjective meaning the greatest possible. With complete/all honesty.

    Neil

  12. [So All can turn out for Adjective United then? He should be thankful it’s not Internazionale. Two games on consecutive days and they play Napoli tomorrow night. Conte will be complaining of pre-Christmas fixture congestion.]
    Thanks Tramp and PeterO.

  13. I noted INTER as well Penfold and tittered at the Conte complaint. EVERT was new but no tennis theme after BALLS UP had me searching. Top half went in smoothly but struggled with CHEQUERED and BLUEPRINT, which were both excellent. Thanks PeterO and always a pleasure to have the setter drop in to put us wannabes in our places. Great puzzle Tramp.

  14. Dull brain meant that I did not parse bus stop, but a really nice challenging puzzle. Thanks to setter and blogger.

  15. Phew. That took a while but got there with a couple of parsing head-scratches – found AUCTION difficult to work out and like Andy @3 I had a family of lovely hedgehogs round my lawn (not seen any this year – usually do about now).

    [Rishi @7/8 – The great Rab C Nebitt often refers to his wife as both “Mary Doll” and “Mary Hen” so that’s fine in my book…]

    Thanks due to Tramp and PeterO!

  16. Tramp@11
    My sincere apologies to you, Dr. WhatsOn and others on the wrong statement I made at 8 on the use of the word ‘model’ in the puzzle.

  18. Thanks for the blog, PeterO.

    Lovely puzzle. I particularly liked TWITCHERS, NEHRU, AUCTION, BLUEPRINT, ESTONIA, GOLDENEYE and EVOKE.

    Top favourite was HEDGEROWS, with its three misdirecting tennis references – and I loved the idea of the running hedgehogs!

    Many thanks, as ever, to Tramp for the fun.

  19. Don’t like the use of ‘woman’ to indicate a name, thought one=un a bit of a crowbar. Maybe just grumpy (again) for failing on the obvious 8d. Good fun though, so thanks Tramp and PeterO.

  20. Loved the ALL tennis surface for HEDGEROWS. Holding my breath waiting for that clue to play out.

    And the golfing clue to get EVERT.

    And the cricket clue to get BUSSTOP.

    And the blonde swingers clue to get FAIRWAY.

    Tramp’s invitation for a chuckle made up for other minor quibbles, like the unindicated ‘un’ and ‘us’. Thanks PeterO for the explanation.

    THIGH was entertaining, even if the model T was there. I find model T a bit tedious in its predictability, along with T for time. T for Tesla might be more up to date.

  21. Although not a long solve I really needed some help with parsing and can see why now. I am still non-plusses by NEHRU though. I get HEN and R but U = essentially has me foxed.

  22. I’m not sure what PeterO’s observation on surfaces says about his feelings on their significance: I rate Tramp’s surfaces highly and today was no exception with most of them smooth, coherent and either amusing, misdirectional or nicely topical. I did get off to a bad start, though, entering Babylon for 1d which is ‘by’ crashing into ‘Balon’ which was going to turn out to be a sea I’d never heard of.

    Rishi @7/8 and MaidenBartok @15: I’m surprised ‘hen’ is considered offensive in Collins. I’ve always taken it as an affectionate diminutive and, certainly in Scotland, where I am at the moment, it’s quite widely used and without offence being taken. A hen is, of course, a female bird so can always be safely interpreted in that way if the human association causes offence.

    I rather envy those who came up with ‘hedgehogs’ which is a delightful answer, if tricky to parse. I loved the definition of AUCTION, the relevant surface for TWITCHERS and the misleading ones for PIGEON, GOLDENEYE and BLUEPRINT. The construction of ELDERLY was clever, EVOKE made me smile and DECENT is cunningly disguised. Not a moan about Tramp but I am already getting a tad tired of BIDEN clues and he’s not even been inaugurated! I wondered whether there might be quibbles about the use of ‘un’ without reference to foreign language (I haven’t come across it as a dialect term as per PeterO) and maybe even ‘vert’.

    Thanks Tramp and PeterO

  24. Thanks Tramp, PeterO
    Tramp possibly more than any other Guardian setter makes you get out your thesaurus, whether mental or real. I’m a fan of that.
    It’s a common theme in the comments for his puzzles that there are ‘stretched’ synonyms. Tramp’s always prepared with a rebuttal, though the blogger or other solvers usually like to provide that given a chance. But presumably people wouldn’t be making such comments if there weren’t solutions that induced an eh rather than an ah. The fact that there is a corner of the dictionary that proves the foolish solver wrong doesn’t change that.
    The one that did it for me today was HEDGEROWS, though it wasn’t a stretched synonym. No doubt I’m wrong, but I don’t associate hedgerows with lawns, so eh? was my reaction.

  25. Really enjoyed this with ticks everywhere but CHEQUERED taking best in show.

    “Pubs struggling over complete mess”… my goodness, how ask currant do you want your clues to be!?

    Smashing stuff, Tramp, many thanks.

  28. Jinniecomelately @ 21: The essence of something can be it’s core or heart. The heart of the word TRUMP is the letter U, hence Trump essentially.

    Unusually for me, I was on Tramp’s wavelength and this went in steadily with little stress. Personally, I would plant a HEDGE round a lawn and would have a HEDGEROW round a field. That said, I really liked this puzzle.

    Thanks Tramp and PeterO

  29. My main quibble was the lack of a “French” indication for un=one, as I never thought of the dialect interpretation: am I a wrong ‘un? Thanks to Tramp for [always?] dropping in to elucidate and explain.

  30. Did anyone else follow my false reasoning on 11 across? R = Republican, SHE = female, U = TrUmp essentially, and reflecting them “word by word” gives USHER, someone who leads you into an event and fits the middle crosser, but plays merry hell with 1D and 3D. It’s only when I hit the check button in desperation that my house fell in…

  31. Eileen @27: very droll! I phrased my comment deliberately; neither presented me with a problem in solving/parsing and I often let such things pass but I know there are folk in the community who feel more strongly. Hence, I wondered…

  33. No theme but lots of linkages: EVERT with the “tennis” clue, NEHRU and BIDEN, a generally virtuous SE quadrant, TWITCHERS and GOLDENEYE. Is ESTONIA the most-clued European nation?

  34. Whew, that took me a long time today.
    Couldn’t parse BUS STOP.
    As PostMark has said, you can’t complain about the surfaces. And to me, the surfaces are important.
    Nice puzzle.
    Thanks Tramp.

  36. Dashed in Poirot as the detective with just the P and the O as crossers. So that made the Billed One difficult to solve. LOI was the cleverly hidden DECENT. Couldn’t for the life of me parse BALLS UP, but it couldn’t really have been anything else. Lots of fun today…

  37. I think we need new building blocks for clues. Don’t get me wrong, I still use sailor = AB and model = T etc (as seen in this puzzle) but I have used, and will continue to use:

    UN = one: he’s a big ‘un

    AT = FOR: they sell at/for one pound

    A = PER

    ONE = drink: I’ll come for a quick one (it’s in the dictionary)

    OF = BY: works of/by Shakespeare

    BY = before: home by/before 11

    McDonald’s = M

    You = U (while you wait). This is much better than upper class.

    I realise that use of these makes the clues harder and draws the same comments for every puzzle, but, I’m prepared to accept that.

    Neil

  38. Glad that I wasn’t the only one to have found this one a struggle, but it’s a complement to Tramp that I kept working away at it (albeit with rather more use of the checking button than I’m happy with) – and once things clicked into place it was irritatingly hard to work out what had caused all the trouble.

    With “hen” I agree with PostMark @22 that it’s also the generic term for a female bird, but its use can come across as patronising and dismissive – it’s a question of who’s saying it and in what context – when applied to women. “Pet” and “love” fall into a similar box – lovely from your grandmother, utterly infuriating from your boss.

    Favourite for me was TWITCHERS – just one of those great combinations of clear clueing and relevant, amusing surface. HEDGEROWS was LOI and unparsed because I came to it via HEDGE being something around a lawn and ROWS are raquets, so what the heck was the rest of it banging on about? All revealed now, of course!

  40. Tramp @ 37
    Nothing wrong with any of those, as far as I can see.
    In Dutch, the pronoun for you is U.
    (There are other words for you, too, of course).

  41. As ever, a thoroughly entertaining offering from one of this contributor’s “top favourite” compilers. Can’t agree with Peter O that “meaty” clues demanded “work”; I found this a rather swift, straightforward solve. But quite delightful. (This is exactly the sort of crossword I’d give to a friend who is no longer a beginner, perhaps having solved their first Everyman or Monday Guardian and looking to travel a little further.) Yes, Tramp has a special talent and we’re so lucky to have him (inter alia).

    The “give us a kiss” billet doux has flown over my head – just missing a buss top!

    Many thanks both and all.

  42. Mr Tramp sir. Re: BY = before: home by/before 11. By 11 means by 11 on the dot – no later. Obvs in the real world that means that often it will be before 11 but not necessarily. Am I being too picky? I suspect I am.

  45. I think Tramp@37 has done the community a big service. He is literally rewriting the rule-book: he is saying that, at least for him, certain substitutions are to be considered normal. His explicit comments are much more compelling than just seeing a usage in a puzzle, since if all you have is the latter, you have no idea how committed the setter is to the usage, or if it was (unusually) a slip. Thanks, Tramp!

  46. Re hens: as long as you think of birds rather than people, “female” for HEN is merely literal. I see no reason to be offended.

    [The suggestion of U being clued as “you” is a good one, though it brings back chilling memories of trying to teach students to avoid text speak. Amazing how they could write lucid prose in their papers and then send emails that called me u (“Mr Penney why did u give me a B?”). Well, that kind of email made me wish it had been a C.

  48. Pedro @ 47

    It’s a cricket reference: the batting player hits the ball, and the fielding side try to field / stop it.

  49. Yes, Pedro, as I also suggested @2: for me, “field” prompts some action beyond stopping (a ball; a question…). But maybe I’m just too pedantic?

  50. Peri1561 @ 49: If as happens fairly often one player stops the ball and another throws it back into the centre, I’d say the first player had fielded it.

    Regardless loved this one. Some lovely bits of misdirection and smashing surfaces. My favourite was Twitchers, but there were lots of candidates.

  51. Thanks both,
    Held up by having ‘medium’ for 8d, believing that Tramp was too sensitive a soul to inflict the plural ‘media’ on us for the singular ‘press’. But I suppose usage and dictionaries trump all.

  52. Thanks for the puzzle and the explanation. Not too many where being American was an issue today–the closest was 14d because our spelling “check” lacks the final E and so doesn’t combine with “red” properly, but once I had the crossers I could see it. Used a Wiki list for 19. I was afraid that 13ac would turn out to involve some particular union I’d never heard of, the British equivalent of AFT (my union!) or something, but “U” is something even I can understand. But I’m not sure I can account for the word “here” in the definition?

    For 16d I didn’t know the bird but know the Bond film/videogame, and the parsing made sense once I had the crossers.

    oofyprosser@19: The issue I have with something like “woman” for a specific name is that it could be just about anything, Summer or Kailynn or Rain or Pax are all names women could have (I was going to say “more common than Esther these days” but looks like Esther is making a comeback in the US), not to mention Asha or Ayo or Gugu.

    I do think it’s admirable to come up with new ways of cluing things rather than the old ones that are basically a matter of convention, where the only reason one knows what it means is that one has seen it before.

  53. Thanks Tramp for a stimulating crossword and discussion. Like others I value readable surfaces and I enjoyed clues like ELDERLY, DONATE, and MEDIAN. Some of the parsing escaped me but that’s par for the course. [My 1st exposure to the widespread use of hen for female came when I was on holiday in Britain. We were hiking the Hadrian’s Wall path and spent a weekend in Newcastle — there were numerous “stag and hen” parties all over the city. I also learned why there are so many British slang words for drunk.] Thanks PeterO for the blog.

  54. I’m normally on Tramp’s wavelength, but not so much today. I support the use of colloquialisms like ‘un for one and us for me. Crossword synonyms are about usage and the usages of these are well demonstrated above.
    My favourite was HEDGEROWS until I came here and the extended surface of TWITCHERS was pointed out to me!
    Fun puzzle. Thanks, Dr T and PeterO.

    matt w @52, I saw the definition in 13 as Here trade, as a verb. But on thinking about it, the word “here” is somewhat redundant, since AUCTION can be a verb too.

  55. Wow that was hard. I did a lot of checking. Thank you PeterO for helping me parse 4dnb and 15ac and for confirming my rather hesitant parsings of other clues.

    In the end all the brain-racking was worth it for the joy of 9ac and 22ac and 28ac, not to mention the brilliance of 6db. Thank you Tramp

  56. Top-class puzzle with always meaningful surfaces. Tricky in parts but none the worse for that. TWITCHERS was especially brilliant.

  57. Thanks, Tramp (Neil) for stopping by and I hope to see your new usage in the not too distant future. Thanks, also to Peter O for the blog.

  58. My most difficult solve for ages – I don’t count Saturday’s Paul because I still haven’t finished solving it. Tramp’s surfaces are as misleading as you can get without being unfair, and it’s incredibly hard at times to know what is definition and what wordplay – which is how it should be.

    “Here trade” for AUCTION and “did kiss” for BRUSHED were particularly tricky, but I did enjoy “one hanging in there” (I was toying with PENDANT until I got the crossing EVERT), “best place for swingers” and “with fluctuations of fortune” once I’d solved them. Toughest synonym for me was WHOLESOME – which means healthy or good, so quite a stretch to get there from clean, which is not mentioned in my Chambers or thesaurus.

    James @24 & keyser soze @28. Totally agree about HEDGEROWS – they’re not the same things as the hedges you see around lawns. Like the idea of hedgehogs running around with rackets, though (thanks Andy @3).

    Thanks Tramp for the work out and for dropping in with a handy list of substitutes.

  60. The particular reference to “hen” in 11a didn’t bother me particularly. More tiresome is this setter’s constant diversion with porn mags, strippers and swingers.
    More worthy of comment by us virtue signallers is 9a. Anagrinds dependent on references to mental illness should have been banished from the Guardian Crossword, and this clue shows also why they usually don’t work. TWITCHERS is a perfectly sensible rearrangement of the letters of WITH CREST. Why is it cuckoo?

  61. Quite a challenge (and/or just not in the zone today), so a DNF… -4.5 XOO, and even then a few were guesses and/or DNPs. Yet, tho several initially felt sketchy/stretched, on closer analysis all seem solid enough… a testament to the craftiness of our setter!

    Tho I got it (as a guess), BUTTON was toughest for me… simply DNK the driver, and horn/butt is obscure (tho fair). Really enjoyed (or at least appreciated) many others, esp some simpler ones, e.g. BIDEN, ESTONIA, ELDERLY.

    Re “press”, think it fine as a plural? As in a collective term for all the newspapers? Lexico offers: “[treated as singular or plural] Newspapers or journalists viewed collectively”

    Thx to setter, blogger, and commenters for the workout/enjoyment.

  62. It’s always hard to be critical when so many enjoy the hard work of the compiler. For me, though, this puzzle was one of “guess the synonym” – it was almost all charades with the odd exception.
    Perhaps I just don’t have the time to spend, or the enthusiasm to dig out a thesaurus to look up some obscure references. But with only three relatively easy clues, there were no crossers to get me going in the rest of the guessing game.
    Sure, reading the answers here makes it obvious, but I’d prefer a few more clues that can get me going.
    Maybe I’ll print out Tramps’ list @37 and keep it handy. Or maybe it’s just a case of gradually learning the rules and next time I’ll get 4 filled in….

  63. Interesting discussion/comments here, re “hen” and now “cuckoo”. Reminiscent of my comment not long ago re what I felt were unfortunate (yet completely unintentional) racial overtones in a clue, saying simply I personally wished it had been worded differently. In subsequent discussion, some seemed to feel it problematic to even make such an observation, while others were understanding and supportive even if they still saw it differently. As the comments here show, it’s a challenge to find language that works well across all experiences/ cultures AND doesn’t cross (or at least flirt with) bounds for some.

    Rishi, I didn’t take “hen” in the sense you posit… but do see your point, and do think it’s something for setters/editors to at least he aware of.

    Van Winkle, I didn’t see “cuckoo” as derogatory, but again can see the point. In that regard, anagrinds seem a particular challenge as so many are founded on the concept of confusion. I’m curious how you feel re others like “mad”, “addled”, “nuts”, “daft”, etc? Is there definable a line (even if fuzzy) beyond which you see things as problematic?

  65. I gave up commenting on Tramp puzzles a long time ago because I realised I’m in a distinct minority as someone who’s never liked them very much. Normally, I would have kept silent on this one too but now feel I must react to the sheer arrogance of the setter @11 in tacitly suggesting new commenters on this site be disqualified from criticising his masterpieces. The fact Rishi may have expressed her-/himself a tad inaccurately in the first sentence @8 does not invalidate the underlying point hinted at by Dr. WhatsOn @4.

    I don’t know whether we’re allowed to advertise other crossword websites here, so let’s just say I occasionally visit one where new setters have an opportunity to publish their efforts and receive feedback from experienced solvers who quite clearly know their stuff. One thing the connoisseurs like to pick up on is repetition of any lexical item in a single set of clues. Of course, it’s not wrong as such but it is considered lazy, sloppy, uninspiring, etc., especially when there are always other options available if the setter can be bothered to look for them. So, using “model” three times in one puzzle would definitely be frowned upon; I imagine eyebrows might also be raised at “excited” in 9a, then “excite” in 25d.

    I’m not saying I necessarily agree with such sentiments but nor would I deny they represent a perfectly legitimate point of view.

  66. As regards this puzzle as a whole, once again Tramp did not fail to disappoint. Granted, the surface readings are generally less clunky than back in the days when he was constantly trying to force some thematic element into every clue; nonetheless, there are still some very awkward definitions here, such as those in 4d, 6d or 18d – and, by the way, in the last-mentioned, I have no idea what the word “best” is doing there: from what little I know about golf, I believe the biggest swing is normally on the tee-shot. “Did kiss” in 4a also strikes me as completely unnatural English.

    Another bugbear is the itsy-bitsy nature of the clues, which is a result of excessive reliance on single-letter indicators, whether for addition or subtraction. I seem to notice these more with this setter than any other, which, to me at least, suggests there are far too many of them.

    Worst of all, though, is the gratuitous sexism, which has always been a Tramp trademark. I agree with Van Winkle’s comment @60 on the “constant diversion”. And yes, I know it’s only a crossword but for some of us these things do matter and so it’s slightly disconcerting that a setter who regularly treats women as passive sex objects in his puzzles should continue to be given space in a supposedly progressive national newspaper.

    Anyway, thanks to PeterO for the blog.

  67. phitonelly @54: Maybe it’s “here trade” as an imperative, as in “trade here,” an auction being a place where one trades?

    OddOtter @61: I interpreted the clue there as “horn in” = “butt in.”

  68. Sheffield Hatter. « Tramp’s surfaces are as misleading as you can get without being unfair, and it’s incredibly hard at times to know what is definition and what wordplay – which is how it should be.« 

    Exactly right! And well put. That’s what I loved most about it. Tough – but really enjoyable. Loved TWITCHERS. And I was another one with hedgehogs running round the lawn. What a shame it wasn’t right.

  69. A really lovely solve – many thanks to Tramp – no quibbles from me about your new buidling blocks @37, However, I am afraid I don’t see US in BUS STOP though… Thanks also to PeterO. Favourite was BLUE PRINT.
    [Rishi@7 one of my all time favourite Araucaria clues has SEX KITTENS as the answer and I really don’t have a problem with it although others may.]

  70. Goodness, that was hard, but enjoyable, work.
    I should plead guilty to being a retired lawyer.
    The last one in, after a lot of headscratching followed by a lightbulb moment, was HEREOF. I think I can now properly describe myself as an ex-lawyer…
    Thanks to Tramp for a challenging crossword and to PeterO for untangling a couple I couldn’t parse.

  73. Took me a while to fill this in – some nice surfaces but some clues that were too loose for my liking.
    The dreaded “common noun to clue a proper noun” strikes again with 1 ac. and 1 dn. – I really find these too lazy! Even HEN for “female” is a bit too imprecise – although I admit I’ve seen this numerous times in the past.
    So much nicer when EVE is clued as “woman who sinned” as opposed to “woman!”

  74. Hi Tramp @72

    …and of all the (woefully few) commenters here that I can identify as female, none seems to have objected to ‘hen’ – apologies if I’ve missed anyone. My Scottish husband often addressed me thus endearingly (I think!) and I know it’s used similarly in the North East of England.

    I’ve also met it in crosswords for as long as I’ve been doing them.

    Nil carborundum …, Neil. 😉

  75. Oh dear. It has been said 500 times before, but the nature of words in crossword puzzles is that they have NO specific context apart from the fact that they are in a crossword puzzle. Accusing compilers of sexism, racism, ageism or any other bias (e.g. denigrating people who have mental health issues) is therefore all in the reader´s head, who chooses to provide the incriminated context themselves. Applying words to somebody makes them sexist, racist, whatever. The word hen itself is harmless, as is cuckoo, coloured, faggot or whatever. Of course, derogatory expressions that are meant to be derogatory in all contexts are clearly off, if they refer to groups. You can´t clue paki, for example. As a German, I would be mildly disappointed to see a clue for kraut, but hun would be (or rather is) perfectly fine. It CAN be used to insult me,in which case I would probably laugh it off, but there are lots of contexts where it is harmless. And of course you can clue “slut”, which is used to insult an individual, not a group, as long as you make clear that you are looking for a derogatory term. Rant over, sorry. Thanks to one of my favourite bloggers, PeterO, and thanks to one of my favourite setters, Tramp. Can we have another rock-band themed puzzle like you did in the early days, please?

  76. OddOtter @63. I think that Van Winkle @60 was being not entirely serious with his objectiopn to “cuckoo” as an anagrind. He prefaced his remarks with a claim to be “virtue signalling”, which is normally only used when criticising someone else, and concluded by saying that TWITCHERS was a sensible arrangement of the fodder in this clue. By that argument, the only acceptable anagrinds would be order and arrange. I hope to see cuckoo, bananas, crazy, mad and all the others for a long time to come.

  77. “Woman who sinned, spread over magazine to excite” isn’t male, though the decently clothed centrefold might be. And it’s not difficult to guess who is actually topless in the sex club.

    But I enjoyed the twitchers, and until somebody comes up with another bird that will indicate an anagram, that particular clue needs its “cuckoo”.

    I didn’t see what all the fuss over the hen was about: she’s either Scottish or a bird, and neither strikes me as offensive.

  79. matt w: Thx re horn/butt; still a bit obscure to me, but as mentioned, do think it a fair clue.

    sheffield hatter @76: Perhaps you’re right, though Van Winkle did make a rather direct statement re refs to mental illness; perhaps he will clarify. Either way, my point is to try to hear what others have to say, even if I disagree. Like you, I enjoy most of those anagrinds… though as someone whose brother suffered mental illness (eventually leading to his death) I can empathize with others for whom it might feel a bit too pointed.

    I agree with those saying a little bit of latitude or thick skin or mutual understanding can go a long way… but feel that cuts both directions (i.e. it also helps to be open to the sensitivities of others). One person’s/culture’s “I can laugh that off” may well be another’s “offensive in any context”. Being able to discuss it all openly and without rancor is the only way I know to get through it. To that end, I’d remind all re site policies 1 & 2… criticism is fine, but I hope we can keep things civil and constructive, even where we disagree or find things aren’t to our tastes (both in giving and receiving comments).

  80. Andreas61 @ 75: Well said. If we’re not going to allow “cuckoo” then we’re going to have to rule out “nuts” as well, and there goes an entire food group (and one of the most beneficial ones, too). Even “crazy” is used all the time in various contexts where it’s perfectly acceptable – “the traffic was crazy”, “they were asking crazy money for it”, heck – “crazy paving”.

    Peri1561 @ 78: Definitely. If a player runs along the boundary, dives headfirst and with outstretched arm stops the ball from going over the boundary rope to save four runs, then I would personally consider that a great bit of fielding, regardless of what follows. If they were injured as a result of the dive, and left the pitch immediately I’d still expect TMS commentators to mention the fielding prowess on show.

  82. sheffield hatter @76 – yes, I am making a serious point, but have previous experience that when such points are seriously made they are rapidly dismissed as po-faced. Some self-deprecation necessary. And just to clarify for those who have missed the point… it is not that “cuckoo” is intrinsically not a nice word but why the use of any word suggesting mental incapacity or illness can pleasantly be used as an instruction to rearrange letters without some derogatory implication. Perhaps there are some mental illnesses whose characteristic is to cause their sufferers to anagramatise.

  83. Interesting challenge fr/gladys… cuckoo is acceptable to many, but if we HAD to change it, what might work? Scanning a bird list, several options pop out; not all are direct replacements, but perhaps could work with additional tweaks; and “?” in the clue allows for leeway, including re punctuation (eg plural/possessive). Here are a few:

    weavers (=weaver’s)
    hawk (=sell=trick/deceive)
    goose (=poke at, or invigorate)
    kite (=write/use fraudulently)
    larks (=lark’s=of foolishness)
    thrashers (=thrasher’s)
    pigeons (=pigeon’s=dupe’s)

    Also thought of other attributes besides name, e.g. “webbed with crest”; probably several other options down that path.

  84. matt w @67. Exactly – “trade” as an imperative verb. That choice by the setter defines the answer as a noun, but it could have been treated as a verb and then “here” would have been redundant. I’ve no problem with it either way.

  85. OddOtter @83, I’ve just looked at synonyms for “goose” – and one of them was … cuckoo!

    More seriously, we’re not far from demanding that setters (who are all clearly dogs, by the way) look up every word in every clue or answer or part of answer in Urban Dictionary to ensure that no-one might be offended or hurt. I think that it would be reasonable to expect a little care to try to avoid the more obvious examples of a word being offensive in context, but I do not believe it is possible to avoid every “offensive” interpretation. Is it not also the crossword editor’s rôle to attempt to avoid overtly offensive constructions?

    For what it’s worth, I thought 9a was a fine clue. I was also more aware that there was a somewhat risqué feel to the clues than a sexist one. I prefer to think the best of people until they prove me wrong.

  86. Van Winkle @82. I’m sorry you were not being “not entirely serious”. I had thought better of you. The word “cuckoo” when used as an anagrind in a crossword puzzle is not derogatory to anyone with mental illness or hurtful to their friends and relations. It is a word that would be inappropriate and offensive if used to refer to someone with mental illness, but when used to refer to the fodder in a crossword clue it is simply an instruction to rearrange the letters.

    Like OddOtter @79, I have family members who have suffered from mental illness, some of them fatally, and I would be distressed if anyone referred to them as cuckoo, bananas or nuts, but I can tell the difference between my family members and a bunch of letters in a crossword clue. I refuse to take offence at the use of cuckoo in the excellent clue for TWITCHERS, and I would argue with you about this for as long as it takes until you see my point.

  87. Monkey @85. Your post arrived as I was typing, so I take this opportunity to thank you for your very thoughtful and apposite contribution. (And, of course, all setters are dogs – except when they write crosswords.)

  88. I have just remembered why I looked for synonyms of “goose”. I had an inkling that “goose” had a slightly dodgy meaning; what I was thinking of was “to goose someone”. I hope we wouldn’t expect Tramp to use a term which means “to pinch or touch someone on the buttocks”.

  89. Monkey: Touché… no wait… that won’t do either… 😉 (Ok, sometimes it’s good to try to see the humor…)

  91. Language can be problematic, and it can be hard to listen – especially when people with different experiences to our own speak up. Often it’s possible to hear those voices and also respectfully disagree about the specific instance. It’s also sometimes hard to understand that it’s not the specific instance but the endless repetition that causes the hurt.

    To reflexively dismiss those voices as “trolls”, I’m afraid, puts Tramp down in my estimation and inclines me to no longer extend the benefit of the doubt.

    I write this as someone whose natural inclinations match Monkey’s above, and who is supremely unconcerned by the use of ‘cuckoo’ as an anagrind despite a fair few mental health issues over the years. I’m a relative newbie here and feel uneasy writing this. Perhaps that unease is why it’s important.

  92. Well said, Ben T.

    sheffield hatter, I think Van Winkle’s point is that cuckoo derives its ability to act as anagrind specifically *from* its history of use in ref to “craziness”, and thus for him cannot be separated fr/mental illness. While the word doesn’t impact me the same way, I support his right to have/share his own feelings on the matter, just as I support the right of others like yourself to feel differently.

  94. sheffield hatter
    Thanks for your Comment on the use of ‘cuckoo’ etc by setters. I agree with you totally.
    That is exactly what I said when some lady members of a Facebook group objected to my choosing the word SEX KITTEN and to my clue for it.
    How can such words be objected to when they are not pointed at anybody in particular?
    Can we wish away these words from a dictionary?

  95. This discussion made me think of Pish-Tush’s song in the Mikado…”and I am right and you are right and all is right as right can be…”

  98. Incredible the extent to which some people manage to distort intention and interpretation.

    Bravo Andreas61 @65 for succinctly putting things into perspective.

  99. Thanks, Van Winkle, for clarifying, and linking re Guardian’s own policy, and applicability to puzzles. I think it notable that, to sheffield hatter’s point, the article does say alternate meanings in clearly non health contexts can be ok. Does cuckoo qualify? Bluth makes a relevant point on that. Some refs say noun use for someone silly/foolish/stupid (yet not specifically insane) dates to 1500’s. The adjective, for crazy/insane, apparently originated as US slang, early 1900’s; whether adjective use for silly/foolish existed before that is unclear, but it’s certainly listed in current refs. So a gray area… some will see sufficient latitude, some may not. Still think it important for each to have compassion for the other even while disagreeing.

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