Guardian Cryptic 28,328 by Nutmeg

61 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 28,328 by Nutmeg”

1. I liked this a lot. I thought it was interesting how many different meanings there are of “get on” (8d).

   I have a couple of questions. (1) I’ve seen it said that in “hidden” type clues, the word that is hiding has to touch all the words in the phrase it is found in, with no extraneous bits. This didn’t happen in 2d GENERA (“by” gets left out and doesn’t get to play). So is this a general practice (I hate to say rule) or not?

   (2) I thought a realm, when referring to a country, had to have a king or queen as its head, but EGYPT doesn’t any more. Chambers allows it to mean “region”, but that is itself a bit ambiguous – is it to be taken as any possible expanse of land, including countries, or any such area that is not a country, since if country was allowed it probably would have said so. Confused.

   Thanks.

2. Found it hard to get started on this. Solved 13 clues and gave up.

   Guessed but did not parse BAKER.

3. Nice puzzle, even though it didn’t last very long. Easy entry via two in-your-face anagrams, then some worthy challenges. I enjoyed BEEKEEPING and HUDSON BAY. LOI was PULL ONESELF TOGETHER, good advice since at that very moment I’d finished the last helping of left-over Christmas pudding. Thanks setter for tiding me over to whatever New Year’s fare may bring.

4. As always Nutmeg leaves me quite satisfied — favourites included AXLE, FOWL, BAKER (guessed then parsed), SUPERNOVA, and CLERGY. Great surfaces throughout. It seems ALGEBRA has been in multiple crosswords lately and I came across BEEKEEPING recently. Thanks Manehi for the super early blog.

5. Nutmeg pretty smooth as per. Seen a bit of algebra recently. Bunged in baker unparsed. Stared for ages at the crossers for loi genera before working out what it must be, only then seeing the hidden…dim! Always thought of gyp as physical, eg my arthritis is giving me gyp, but a mere quiblet. Pleasant fare, thanks both.

6. I parsed 14,7 slightly differently: number=ONE, one=SELF.

7. @TonySantucci Not just algebra, but also deal as a type of wood has come up in a recent guardian crossword too.

   I found EGYPT unsatisfactory because GYP derives from Gypsy, which itself derives from Egyptian!

8. PH: I also found 17dn unsatisfactory, because it was just police -> DIS -> negation of the first part to give the last part, when they were pretty much antonyms anyway. The majority of 19dn was also “which one of the multiple variants of gosh/golly/gee etc. is it this time?”

9. Wondered about Egypt as well — it’s certainly a former realm (remember King Farouk?)

10. 6dn: Also LouLou or LewLew

11. A most enjoyable crossword with some neat clues – I missed the subtlety of “living” in 9ac, and I really like the tautness of anagram clues like 11ac and 18ac.
    I wasn’t aware that a realm strictly had to have a monarch, which I suppose on reflection is logical (compare “Real” Madrid, for example) – but another meaning is an area of interest so perhaps we can think of Egyptologists?
    I don’t share the discomfort of Dr WhatsOn @1 with 2dn – which I read as “retrospectively brought in” by “fare negotiators” with all the words earning their keep. For myself, I’m not terribly keen on 8dn or 14,7, but that’s just a matter of taste.
    I had supposed that the BAKER of 28ac was BACKER (i.e. a [bank-]roller) from which “c” (about) had left, but Manehi’s parsing is much more convincing.
    Thanks to Nutmeg and Manehi – I had thought the blog was pretty early at 7.30 a.m. but having it up by 2.25, as was evidently the case, is remarkable.

12. A mixture for me – some quite easy clues but also some demanding a bit more thought. BAKER and HECKLE kept me occupied for ages.
    An enjoyable puzzle and no real quibbles. Though, as manehi implies, a manse isn’t necessarily north of the border.
    Thanks to Nutmeg and manehi.

13. Beyond my ken today, got about half way. Not sure I would ever have the brains to solve a Nutmeg crossword.
    Thanks for the explanations of the many I left.

14. A joy which is par for Nutmeg
    Nice blog
    THanks Nutmeg manehi

15. Found NE corner hard to crack because I’d pencilled in TOP-DRAWER for 10a; lots to savour including HUDSON BAY, SUPERNOVA and BEEKEEPING. Lovely puzzle. Many thanks to Nutmeg and manehi.

16. Thought this TOPFLIGHT… not too tough by Nutmeg standards, w/some STELLAR cluing, esp: SPLOTCH, GENERA, SUPERNOVA

    GENERA: Think “by” specifies where answer is held… i.e. GENERA is reverse-contained by (so “retrospectively brought in by”) the fodder (specifically “fare negotiators”).

    LULU: Heard Lou-Lou… as a USian, loo is never 1st to mind.

    EGYPT: Gyp as noun here (as in pain, discomfort) ostensibly derives from “gee up”, not Gypsy. It’s the verb (to swindle, cheat) which derives from Gypsy, and may be considered derogatory or offensive (shades of the recent welsh/welch discussion). The noun is a Britishism unfamiliar (in my experience) in the US; always reflexively balk a little at gyp refs in UK puzzles and have to remind myself the noun is unrelated to the verb.

    ALGEBRA: Artist=RA is often parsed as Royal Academician (and well supported by refs), but curious if anyone recalls it as Resident (or Residential) Artist from long ago? I vaguely recall old Times puzzle collections fr/50yrs ago or so included a “how to” section incl common abbrs, with the latter sense of RA listed; will have to see if I can dig that up.

    Hats off to Nutmeg for a fine puzzle, and to blogger/commenters for the always interesting discussion.

17. Pleased to complete a Nutmeg without any assistance and able to parse the majority – though I made exactly the same mistake as NeilH with BACKER/BAKER (having previously considered rocker/raker before I had the initial crosser). Although there is good interlinkage, this solved very much as four distinct quarters with the SW and DISLODGE being last. Unlike yesterday when the wavelengths were at odds, today I found myself thinking along Nutmeg lines from the start leading to a very pleasant and, for Nutmeg, reasonably quick solve.

    Favourite was probably BEEKEEPING though – along with others here – I enjoyed ALGEBRA, HUDSON BAY, SUPERNOVA and HECKLE amongst many others.

    I share Dr Whatson’s discomfort about realm (having failed to uncover the bottles/dead men connection yesterday I now have no faith whatsoever in my abilities with Google – but most of the sources I’ve consulted today confirm that a realm has a monarch or quasi-monarchical ruler.) Whilst I shall probably continue to refer to a jippy/gyppy tummy in the future, as PH points out @7, gyp is derived from gypsy/Egyptian and is, apparently, yet another racial slur (like welch) so it’s probably one more word the politically correct should be avoiding in these sensitive times!

    Thanks Nutmeg and manehi

18. [Otter @16: I know we’re not meant to acknowledge crossing any more but, given you made a similar point to me re gyp/welch, I apologise for the inadvertent doubling up. Thanks for clarifying the distinction between noun and verb which I had always assumed to be related. There were only 14 comments up at the time I began writing my post.]

19. Dr. WhatsOn @1:
    I would imagine you’re right but in this case at least, GENERA is taken in by ‘fare negotiators’

    Some tough ones here and I do not quite see that you can call an axle a rod.

20. Very tough, especially after yesterday’s pleasant stroll but some top clues including BEEKEEPING, LOUNGE BAR, SUPERNOVA and the lovely SPLOTCH. I also thought MANSE needed a qualifier as it is not just a Scottish residence. Well done Nutmeg for not offending anyone with EGYPT and thanks manehi for the excellent blog.

21. Lovely puzzle, great blog.

    Many thanks, Nutmeg and manehi.

22. Never on the Nutmeg wavelength and it took me quite a while to get going this morning. FOI was HIT IT OFF and the other expressions fell in quite easily as did the anagrams. Then stuck for ages on the rest! DNK MANSE (have put that in the memory bank). COTD BEEKEEPING even though it is corny…

    Thanks to Nutmeg for the fun and manehi for the blog!

23. Great puzzle, thanks Nutmeg.

    Couldn’t parse LOI BEEKEEPING but now manehi has explained it I think it’s a great clue.

    Favourites (for their surfaces) were 1ac ‘symbolic subject’ and 9ac ‘living’.

24. I hesitated about DEAL because it’s a soft wood and I can’t see it being used for furniture-making. However, as it’s easily worked, I imagine a GREAT one might be worth bidding for.

25. That kept me entertained as I watched the snow fall.

    Favourite was BEEKEEPING, but I also enjoyed HUDSON BAY, SUPERNOVA and HECKLE.

    Thanks Nutmeg and Manehi.

26. Thanks Nutmeg and manehi
    Great fun. Too many favourites to list them all, but I must mention BEEKEEPING, ANTIC, and ATTACHES.
    I didn’t parse BAKER either, and I was confused by the HIT OFF part of 8d – does it really mean “mimic”? I would say “take off”.

27. muffin, re HIT OFF: Wasn’t familiar w/this either, but refs support it…

    Collins online: “to represent or mimic accurately”

    Chambers online: “hit someone or something off – to imitate, mimic, or aptly describe them or it.”

28. Agree with yesyes @23 about the surface of 1ac. A rural idyll, an old cottage, slightly ramshackle… an artist, a hint of deeper spiritual meanings lying beneath the brush strokes… and all to convey the scientific rigour of ALGEBRA. Just beautiful.

    Thanks Nutmeg and manehi.

29. Thanks OddOtter

30. PostMark @18 – crossing can usually be avoided altogether by saving your intended text and refreshing the blog just before you press “post” to see what has been happening whilst you have been typing. It is also pleasant for those that have some catching up to do not to make unnecessary references to solutions in the previous day’s puzzle.
    Whilst I am having a bit of a moan, is it not the case that for 26a rolling and breaking are two separate parts of the life of a wave and thus not at all interchangeable?
    And as a son of the manse, none of the ones I grew up in were within 150 miles of the border. So unless all religious ministers’ homes in Scotland are manses (perhaps they are?) the clue doesn’t work.

31. Today I learned that ELL is an old word for ARM, and thus ELBOW is the bend in the arm. Lovely!

32. Did anyone else think the solution to 12ac was SOME (= ‘figure’ and also homophone of ‘incomplete’)?

33. More precisely, (= ‘figure’ and also homophone (‘report’) of ‘incomplete’)?

34. VW @30: apologies. ‘Twas a bit of self-deprecation and not really intended to be comment upon a clue of yesterday though I’ve clearly made reference and trust it doesn’t ruin yet another post dated solve for you. There is hope yet: I appeared to be one of the very few for whom a particular nugget was not GK and hence my need to (unsuccessfully) Google. There’s a good chance your pleasure won’t be wholly spoiled.

    BTW, on your rollers/breakers point, is the white water we see during a heavy sea the result of breaking or is breaking just when the wave meets the shore? If the former, Nutmeg’s in the clear.

35. [PostMark @34: It was a piece of GK unknown to me as well but one I inted to put to much post-pandemic bar time use…]

36. Thanks Nutmeg and Manehi,
    Great fun and I won’t repeat what’s already been covered. The blog doesn’t show it, but in 6d I’m sure ‘possibly’ is part of the definition, as LULU can be both a wonderful thing and something outstandingly bad.

37. Caught between admiration for Nutmeg and frustration with myself for missing the most obvious of crossword staples. I have a particular weak spot around flower = river and exclamations like “eek” and “my”. While I admire contributors’ knowledge of fine distinctions, such as breaker/roller realm/country, I think we can get excessively finicky. You can’t have crosswords without approximate synonyms, it seems to me.

38. From Keats:
    Much have I travelled in the realms of gold
    And many goodly states and kingdoms seen

    Does this solve the realm/kingdom conundrum?

39. Been inducting my 28yo son into the dark arts of the cryptic today – it’s all quite legal, he’s in our ‘bubble’. He volunteered the GYP bit of EGYPT but couldn’t see where the ET came from – until I said the word alien. And he twigged what was going on with A GREAT DEAL. So maybe there is another generation ready to take up the mantle!

40. Liked this very much. All of it. Though I did create problems by convincing myself that Ork was some kind of bird that was required for 24d, with the resulting wrong insertion of Fork instead of the excellent FOWL, and therefore taking a while to complete the SW corner finally…

41. Thank you, Gerardus@38, that totally muddies the waters!

    PeterT@37 makes a good general admonition about being too finicky, but it might not apply here. One way to judge an approximate synonym is to ask oneself if the situation is closer to “people say that all the time” or to “you just don’t hear that”.

42. Another great Cryptic from Nutmeg and many thanks to Manehi especially for explaining BAKER which, like others, I got but could not parse. Favourites were BEEKEEPING, SUPERNOVA and CLERGY. Had never heard of AITS, so learnt something new today. Ronald @40, I too had FORK to begin with, so you are not alone! I was pleased to solve it all without help, other than with parsing.

43. Thanks manehi, I guessed and had no idea how to parse MANSE (went to one every Bonfire Night as a kid, many miles from Scotland, but appreciate the deeper meaning of “Living” now!) and a few others (I was another Backer), can only very vaguely recall LULU in that sense and always think of SPLOTCH as Splodge which held me up a while. I tend to use Gyp for a milder annoyance than anguish, and thought DIs for Police was weak BUT when i tried to equate “get caught” with LODGE was soon reminded of the child that had become lodged in the tunnel of goats, and for that memory I am thankful, as well as for many other fine clues – CLERGY flummoxed me for a long while, the anagrams were snappy but SUPERNOVA wins today, thanks Nutmeg.

44. I don’t share the joy some people get from Nutmeg’s crosswords and struggled to finish, having to switch from paper to online for the use of the check button to get myself restarted in the NE. Favourite was MANSE, last one in was DISLODGE, and I had to read manehi’s blog for the parsings of CLERGY and BAKER. Didn’t bother parsing PULL ONESELF TOGETHER – once I had got draw=PULL, the rest followed.

    Of the present bunch, I think Nutmeg is the setter I have most difficulty with, though the only actual unfairness I detected was the use of ‘distance’ to signify ELL. This obsolete unit was used to measure the length of cloth, typically; it would therefore be incorrect, surely, to ask “what is the distance from one end of this cloth to the other”? Distance and length are not interchangeable. (Someone is bound to prove me wrong, so I’ll call back later.)

45. Am I the only person who is uneasy about 23, because a realm is a country ruled by a king or queen whereas Egypt is a republic? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realm

46. PostMark @34 – no actual harm done, but I have a habit of jumping on all spoilers as a hoped-for preventative against someone dropping a really ruinous one (such as revelation of a hidden theme). Apologies that you suffered for the future sins of others.

47. sheffield hatter@44: I will be that person: “Before creases were marked in whitewash in 1865 they were cut into the earth and were, as W.G. Grace remembered from his early days, one inch deep and one inch wide. With allowance made of 1/2 inch from the centre of each crease the distance between the inner edges of the creases was thus 45 inches, that is the length of an ell.” https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/the-measurements-of-cricket-89685 So there is one case in which an ell was used for distance. (I hadn’t realized it was primarily for length, I had thought it was architectural because of confusion with the building extension.

    Lovely puzzle overall though I do share my fellow USians discomfort with 23d. In addition to the other clues people have praised I particularly liked 5d. Thanks Nutmeg and manehi.

48. [VW @46: no probs. In fact, I feel I’ve become a member of a rather exclusive club. I think I’ve been individually Winkled twice now (the other occasion was a contribution to a musical digression) and I’m sure I’ve been included in a general Winkling on a couple of occasions too! I shall endeavour to steer clear of a third. 😀 ]

49. matt w @47 Some think 23d is fair, others that it is foul

50. Thanks both,
    I share VW@30’s concern about roller vs breaker and manses. Although OED has a citation talking about rollers breaking on a beach, not all rollers are breakers, nor are all breakers rollers. Rollers are long-period oceanic waves whereas breakers, IME, tend to be short period waves.
    Manses are the residences of non-conformist ministers but livings tend to be associated with episcopal churches. I’ve never heard ‘living’ referred to a non-conformist appointment, but I’m open to correction. Moreover the clue was a cd worthy of Vulcan.

51. matt w @47. Nice research, and interesting that the crease on a cricket pitch used to be just that. But I think the quote rather makes my point than undermines it: “…the distance between the inner edges of the creases was thus 45 inches, that is the length of an ell.”

    Note, not “…the distance was an ell” but “45 inches, the length of an ell.” By contrast, you wouldn’t say “the distance was the length of a yardstick”, you’d just say “the distance was a yard”.

52. I didn’t quite finish this, but I liked what I managed to complete (all but four clues). I got PULL ONESELF TOGETHER quite quickly from the definition, but I made the parsing of it more difficult than I needed to. I got PULL from ‘draw’, but I thought ‘number’ had to be ETHER, and I couldn’t accept that ONE would be in both the clue and the answer. Anyway, I got it in the end.
    I struggled with both EGYPT (realm?, as discussed) and MANSE, which was a better clue than I thought, with that meaning of ‘living’.
    Thanks to both Nutmeg and manehi.

53. EGYPT: Clue doesn’t specify timeframe, and for much of history it was a kingdom, so I think realm ok. (Months ago, was discussed whether a nation no longer in existence could still be ref’ed as such; think consensus was yes, w/historic context presumable if not otherwise specified.)

    Re ell, L(ength), D(instance): Despite lexico (whose L/D defns muddy it up), L typically measures along a thing, while D measures btw things. In that sense ell, typically a textile measure, can be seen as L; yet if describing D’s of a textile (e.g. space btw: cut ends, creases/pleats, elements of a fabric pattern, parts of a tapestry) one might also use ells? Also, much as “yard” was originally based on D (fr/king’s nose to thumb), the Viking ell (a ref to ulna/arm) was originally D fr/elbow to middle fingertip… so while typically used for L, it is literally speaking a D?

54. Lovely stuff, though I spent far too long thinking that a furniture maker would want A SWEET (SUITE) DEAL. Twigged in the end though, loved HECKLE and SUPERNOVA. Thanks Nutmeg and Manehi both.

55. Tough going on the across clues, but it began to give way on the down clues. I also thought MANSE was not necessarily a Scottish term, so presumably the clue could just be “Living accommodation” which would be rather good.
    I was a bit surprised Nutmeg didn’t use a capital G for Gable in 1a (something like “Gable performing artist’s symbolic subject”) to reference Clark G. Perhaps he’s too old hat these days?
    Nice puzzle. Thanks, Nutmeg and manehi.

56. I could not fully parse a few – thanks manehi for the explanations.
    Fine puzzle, though. My only quibble was with “realm” for “Egypt” – I just don’t like a generic term for a specific proper noun (I know, I’m like a broken record…). And I learned a new meaning for “gyp” – never heard it used in this context in the US.

57. Thanks to Nutmeg for giving me a one snooze workout – the brain did need clearing.
    And to Manehi for the explanations. I parsed 22a differently. Lots are bid for at an auction and furniture makers may well be looking for some deal to use in their trade. But both give the same result. The rest was an enjoyable distraction with my after lunch coffee.

58. MANSE is in common use south of the border as the tied residence of a nonconformist minister: our London Baptist church has one.

59. I solved this without a great deal of difficulty or pleasure, I’m sorry to say.
    22a A furniture maker may want to buy some deal for a particular purpose but would they ever describe it as “a great deal”?
    12a Are “state” and “report” interchangeable?
    13a.Something before one’s very eyes is detectable but would anyone ever describe it a such?
    I could go on.
    9a. One thing I did like was the use of “living” in its specialised meaning then Tyngewick@50 told me that occupants of manses don’t have livings in this sense!
    Thanks all the same to Nutmeg for the worrkout and maneehi.

60. Tyngewick@50, re 9@ MANSE, I agree that it was an excellent cd, and therefore worthy of the estimable Vulcan. (Actually I also agree that “north of the border” was unfairly misleading. We have manses in Canada.)

    Thanks Nutmeg for the fine crossword, and manehi for unpacking a couple of difficult parses.

61. @cellomaniac
    “North of the border/Up Canada way”, perhaps?
    Certainly for me, brought up in S E England, rightly or wrongly, a manse was always considered to be the Church of Scotland equivalent of a vicarage.

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