Guardian Cryptic 28,333 by Imogen

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Vulcan's alter ego usurps the Monday slot.

We have become used to Vulcan crosswords on Mondays over the last few years, but our setter (or the editor) may have considered this one a bit trickier, so has used his alter ego Imogen instead. The puzzle was certainly a bit more difficult than Monday solvers may be used to, but it was by no means impossible, and was a pleasant puzzle to solve, with a few "aha" moments adding to the fun.

Thanks Imogen

ACROSS
1 KNOWING Aware of two men down (7)
 

K and N (king and knight, in chess notation, so "two men" ) + OWING ("down")
5 SOAPBOX Programme on TV that may support the Speaker (7)
 

SOAP ("programme") on BOX ("TV")
10 MOWN Cut complaint that’s expressed (4)
 

Homophone [that's expressed] of MOAN ("complaint")
11 SHELL SUITS Hustling, sell us this leisurewear (5,5)
 

*(sell us this) [anag:hustling]
12 CICERO Old Roman company employing decorator (6)
 

Co. (company) employing ICER (cake "decorator")
13 DRIP FEED In small segments, give out last message — fine, in fact (4,4)
 

RIP (rest in peace, so "last message") + F (fine) in DEED ("fact")
14 THEM ASSES Those fools are all ordinary people (3,6)
 

THEM ("those") + ASSES ("fools")
16 KUDOS Credit turning round anti-British slogan (5)
 

[turning round] <=SOD UK ("anti-British slogan")
17 VANYA Virginia houses some titled uncle (5)
 

Va. (Virginia) houses ANY ("some")

Uncle Vanya is the title of an Anton Chekhov play. so Vanya could be described as "titled"
19 OSTENSIVE Showing hammering: it’s 7-0 (9)
 

*(its seven o) [anag:hammering]
23 FALSETTO Not one to lose argument, raised voice (8)
 

FA(i)L ("lose", not "one" (I)) _ SET TO ("argument")
24 ROSARY Promising to hold retreat, initially after a series of prayers (6)
 

ROSY ("promising") to hold R(etreat) [initially] after A
26 HEREDITARY Some peers are at this place, a dirty mess (10)
 

HERE ("at this place") + *(a dirty) [anag:mess]
27 BRIG Run aboard huge vessel (4)
 

R (run) aboard BIG ("huge")
28 PSALTER A belated idea to edit book of David’s songs (7)
 

PS (postscript, so "belated idea") + ALTER ("to edit")
29 INFERNO Fire out of control? Suppose not (7)
 

INFER ("suppose") + NO ("not")
DOWN
2 NEOLITH Hotline fails, something from the Stone Age (7)
 

*(hotline) [anag:fails]
3 WINCE Shrink from cold, tucking into some alcohol (5)
 

C (cold) tucking into WINE ("some alcohol")
4 NO-SHOWS They are missing food with pained expressions (2-5)
 

NOSH ("food") with OWS ("pained expressions")
6 OIL RIG Youngster to switch positions over in place for drill (3,3)
 

<=(GIRL ("youngster") + I/O ("switch positions"), over)
7 PLUS FOURS Advantage for us sporting baggy clothes (4,5)
 

PLUS ("advantage") + *(for us) [anag:sporting]
8 ON THE GO One third of trimester with head away, I get busy (2,3,2)
 

(m)ONTH ("one third of trimester" with head off) + EGO ("I")
9 NEEDLESS TO SAY IoW feature last visited by people making maps of course (8,2,3)
 

NEEDLES ("feature of Isle of Wight") + STAY ("last") visited by OS (Ordnance Survey, so "people making maps")
15 MAYAS WELL Old American people get bigger: why not? (3,2,4)
 

MAYA ("old American people") + SWELL ("get bigger")
18 AMADEUS Musical film shot in Oz (7)
 

MADE ("shot") in AUS (Australia, so "Oz")
20 EARLY ON Tragic figure not heading to French city in initial stages (5,2)
 

(King) (l)EAR ("tragic figure", not heading) + LYON ("French city")
21 VERSION Dislike not having a translation (7)
 

(a)VERSION ("dislike", not having A)
22 STRIFE With trouble, wife has endless long piece to iron (6)
 

[endless] STRI(p) ("long piece") + Fe (chemical symbol for "iron")

Trouble and strife is Cockney rhyming slang for "wife"
25 SABLE Black book central to special offer (5)
 

B (book) central to SALE ("special offer")

59 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 28,333 by Imogen”

  1. Yes, my first thought was that the gremlins had struck again and this should have been credited to Vulcan – which seemed to be confirmed when NO-SHOWS, CICERO and SHELL SUITS went in very quickly.

    After that however things got chewier. Loved AMADEUS and MAY AS WELL, and kudos for KUDOS. Nice to see another outing for the Needles, though the combination of IoW and Ordnance Survey must have made it tricky for our overseas friends. VERSION was helped along by the French practice of calling translations into one’s mother tongue ‘version’, while the other way round is ‘thème’.

    Thanks Imcan/Vulogen and loonapick

  2. Yes, good to see our favourite Aberdonian beat combo, The Needles, getting another gig ?

    Enjoyed THE MASSES, MAY AS WELL and KUDOS.

    Thanks to Imogen and Loonapick

  3. I think loonapick hits the nail on the head – not easy, but a pleasant and rewarding solve which steadily went in. Just a few easy ones – CICERO, BRIG, PSALTER, PLUS FOURS – to get you started, and then the work begins.
    No iffy ones, and the one unfamiliar word (OSTENSIVE) had a sufficiently clear wordplay that it didn’t matter that the solution was unfamiliar; though essexboy @1 makes a good point about the extent of local knowledge required for 9dn. Is that legitimate in what is, after all, a British newspaper? Discuss.
    Couldn’t help wondering whether the wordplay for 14ac and 15ac (the latter being a laugh out loud moment) was a low-key comment on recent idiocies.
    Thanks to Imogen and loonapick.

  4. I solved this one at a steady pace but there were several that I couldn’t parse so thanks loonapick for the help with 6dn (obvious when you see it) and 9dn and 23ac. Favourite clues? 8dn but especially 16ac which appealed to my childish sense of fun. Thanks Imogen for the challenge.

  5. Yep essexboy, IoW’s geography plus OS were beyond parsable for this Oz boy, and ditto fa[i]l set-to, tho both solutions obvious. Fun Monday fare from the I/V, thanks to them and to Loonapick.

  6. Lots of good clues, but I’m not sure about the “to” in 22D. It’s clearly there for the surface, but I don’t see how it can legitimately serve as a link word, as it doesn’t mean “leading to”.

  7. Thanks Imogen and loonapick
    On first read-through I spent some time trying to parse HOI POLLOI for 14a! That and the other run-together, MAY AS WELL, were favourites.

  9. This was a nice steady solve for me, too. Lots of ticks, with EARLY ON and THE MASSES being my favourites. AMADEUS was rather clever (“Aladdin” wouldn’t parse so I then cast around for musical terms that might fit) and it took me a while to realise that Shaffer’s brilliant work could also be loosely classed as a musical. Fortunately, The Needles are (is?) pretty much the only feature of the Isle of Wight I’d heard of.
    Many thanks to Loonapick for help finishing the parsing to ON THE GO and ROSARY (both guess first, semi-parse later) and to Imogen for a fun start to the week

  10. Thanks Imogen and loonapick.

    I still don’t understand 6d I/O – how is that switch positions? I took the youngster to be “Girl aged 10”, and reversed that.

  11. I rather struggle with Imogen usually, so wasn’t expecting much joy here, but was pleasantly surprised. I enjoyed it and also the blog that helped to demystify the parsing for ON THE GO. I took an altogether more literal approach to the ‘third of trimester’ and took the first or last three letters. It’s obvious when you see it. Put a smile on my face. Thanks to both.

  13. Came on here this morning feeling like the class dunce I was expecting an “easy” Monday solve and would therefore be met with people telling me this was a walk-in-the-park (not that we are allowed to do that any more, of course).

    So rather relieved that I was not alone!

    COTD was 9d – FOI 11a in true Harry Enfield style.

    Many thanks to Imogen and loonapick.

  14. journeyman @ 11 – exactly how I feel about Imogen’s puzzles.
    Today I never gave up and the answer was there. Some very subtle clues suggest nothing at all on the first read – this was how I remember crosswords from my youth. Cryptic bit leading towards the meaning. So many nowadays work the other way round for me! Well done Imogen and thank you.

  15. Due to the grid, It was like solving 4 small puzzles, especially as I could not solve 9 down until googling IoW places.

    NEW: shell suits, ostensive, Needles, IoW = Isle of Wight

    Liked ON THE GO, KUDOS, DRIPFEED, EARLY ON, INFERNO, FALSETTO

    Did not parse OIL RIG but guessed that ‘girl’ had something to do with it. Like Dave @ 10 I guessed it might be reverse of girl 10. What is the I/O? I do not understand the blog.

    Thanks, Imogen and blogger

  16. Enjoyed this. Didn’t parse 9dn, though recent discussions re The Needles helped me to work out what IoW was; I failed on OS. Also do nit understand I/O but the in/out and binary interpretations work. Fav clue THE MASSES. Ta tp Imogen and loonapick

  17. Okay, I just looked in my dictionary

    I/O
    abbreviation Electronics
    input-output.

    Is this ‘switch positions’?

  19. Armadeus, of course, was not made/shot in Aus but, at least partly, in Wolfie and Connie’s Vienna house, aka the Mozart museum. [It has a hifi console with headphones; a young woman said to Mrs ginf and I “try this track, it is the best”. It was the Kyrie of the Requiem. We wept. And bought the cd, Deutsche Grammophon].

  20. A tour de force in setting and comedy.Best Monday puzzle in ages
    2021 good so far with Brendan and Vlad. May it stay so.
    Not a problem is sight.
    Thanks to Imogen and loonapic

  25. Like copmus @20 and Eileen above, I thought this was a fantastic puzzle. Lots of ticks, particularly INFERNO which kept me from finishing for about half an hour. Many thanks to Imogen and loonapick.

  26. This seemed to be midway between Vulcan and Imogen (see essexboy @1) and very enjoyable.

    I was another to try an anagram of tri/ter and head for 8D.

    I particularly liked DRIP FEED, KUDOS and FALSETTO.

    Thanks Imogen and loonapick.

  27. I saw Imogen on a Monday and thought ‘really?’. But this was OK, roughly in the spot for the day.

    I’m with Loonapick @18. I’ve several electrical appliances on which the switch is labelled 1 for on and 0 for off, my kettle as an example, so OIL RIG was parsed in a flash.

  29. Wonderful treat for a Monday.

    Failed to parse ON THE GO and the “switch positions” gag meant that OIL RIG went in only partially parsed.

    Many thanks, Imogen.

  30. Thanks loonapick, I had many problems parsing this and you have sorted them all out very clearly, my already high appreciation of the puzzle has risen considerably as a result of fully understanding OIL RIG, ON THE GO (favourite) and my LOI, KNOWING (probably should have parsed the latter but blame it on Monday after a long weekend). And nice to see unambiguous NEEDLES this time!
    I may have commented previously that I think Imogen uses more religious references than many setters, does anyone else think this? EG Psalter, rosary here. (I know the occasional book or abbreviations of NT&OT crop up everywhere but I think today’s require more specific knowledge.) Not a complaint though-because I could just about stretch to the solutions!
    Anyway thanks for the wake-up call Imogen.

  31. I enjoyed this, put in some last night, some this morning and the rest with loonapick’s help. Thanks to him and to Imogen.

    After a recent discussion, the Needles were more top of mind than usual. So I biffed 9d in, having heard of but not remembering the Ordnance Survey.

  32. PS RichardCV22@6, maybe I don’t understand your query but isn’t that “to” just indicating that the two wordplay parts STRI and FE are to be placed adjacently so they are touching, thus giving the solution? Like when we put pen to paper or pedal to metal – these imply that the two parts will touch each other?

  33. Lots of fun today. I enjoyed NEEDLESS TO SAY very much and the surface was great. I found it interesting in AMADEUS that the shot/made pair are best understood as synonyms in the context of the film making as in the surface itself. Makes the clue rather strange to read.
    My only quibble is with INFERNO. I went with loonopick’s parsing too, but I don’t really see how “not” can be no. Any explanations?

    Thanks, Imocan and loonapick. Love the on/off switch picture – the perfect explanation of the clue.

  34. Good to have a proper crossword on a Monday. Thanks, Imogen and loonapick.
    I couldn’t see where the I/O came from, despite having several gadgets with power switches so labelled.

  35. I thought this a classy puzzle, as it seems many others here did, but I have a usage question prompted by the fact that I don’t live there any more.

    Is “SOD UK” something that people actually are known to use, or is it just a possible, plausible slogan? I ask because the word slogan to me conjures up associations of actual, frequent use.

    Thanks

  36. Gazzh@32. Thank you for addressing the enquiry I made. I see what you mean, but I should find it a bit of a stretch to agree that the use of “to” in this way, without more, can be unquestionably justified. The word “to” does not appear in the list of juxtaposition indicators in Chambers XWD Dictionary. I think something further would be needed for it to be able to be used for this purpose – such as, for example, “applied to”, “going to” or “next to”. In the examples you give, the word “put” seems to me to form an essential part of the construction. I wonder whether Imogen in his former role as editor would have permitted “to” as a juxtaposition indicator in a Times XWD.

  37. Thanks to several above about OILRIG I/O – I was reading “switch” as a verb, and as soon as I realised it was a noun it was clear.

  38. phitonelly @33, re no = not: D’ye no ken yer Scots? 😉
    Scottish usage aside, there’s no good and no different, where I think we could just about substitute one for t’other.

    Dr W @35: I’m tickled by the idea of SOD UK being an actual slogan. Alas, as far as I am aware, no political party or advertiser has yet adopted it.

  39. Tough nut to crack for me — I eventually revealed what I could not get such as NEEDLESS TO SAY and KUDOS — without the proper (British) background these were beyond my reach. I expect this to occur from time to time so it’s not a issue. I thought THE MASSES and MAY AS WELL were very amusing; AMADEUS, EARLY ON, and VERSION were favourites as well. Thanks Imogen and Loonapick for untangling so much for me.

  41. essexboy @38. Both the Scottish dialect argument and the no good/different usage argument make sense to me. Thanks for responding.

  42. FOI was SHELL SUITS, immediately followed by PLUS FOURS. Oh goody, I thought I’ve spotted a theme for the first time ever. Alas, another false dawn.

  43. [bodycheetah @28: I had “IO” down as “10” and therefore two or to or too…

    As for Mr Coren; Oy vey, that is one broigus mensch…]

  44. Thanks Loonapick for a few parsings. Lovely crossword which I nearly finished (3 short). This represents a success for me.

  45. In your list of the posted answers — the blue text in all caps — you show 14 across as ‘THEM ASSES’ and you show 15 down as “MAYAS SWELL”

    While those are indeed the parsings of those answers, the list should probably display the actual 14 across and 15 down answers ‘THE MASSES’ and ‘MAY AS WELL’

  46. phitonelly @33. “I don’t really see how “not” can be no. Any explanations?” I hate to argue with essexboy, so I’m not rejecting his explanation @38 for INFERNO, just suggesting what I think is a better one: I saw the whole word split into INFER NO being equivalent to ‘suppose not’ (ie deduce a negative). Works for me, anyway.

    INFERNO was my last one in, preceded by the equally reluctant VERSION and ROSARY, those three in the SE taking about as long as the rest of the puzzle. This left me in no doubt that we were looking at an Imogen rather than a Vulcan. Enjoyed the ‘titled uncle’, ‘with trouble, wife’ and of course the imagined valedictory slogan from Dominic Cummings, SOD UK!

  47. essexboy@1, I wonder whether Imogen, having been outed as Vulcan (or is it the other way around?) has decided to drop the no longer effective subterfuge.

    In any event this was a gem of a puzzle, not too hard for a Monday, with many excellent clues, my favourites being THEM ASSES and INFERNO (which I parsed as sheffieldhatter@46). Thanks Imogen for starting 2021 Mondays in such fine style.

    I got the IoW part of 9d NEEDLESS TO SAY thanks to the discussion of an earlier needle manifestation, but the OS was beyond the ken of this Canuck, so only partial parsing perceived. I also had to come here for the parsing of 23a FALSETTO, so thanks loonapick for the illumination.

    [ And thanks bodycheetah@28 for the Coren link – hilarious and deadly at the same time. ]

  48. sh/cellomaniac @46/47 – “suppose not” = “infer (the answer) ‘no’ ” – yep I agree, that works better. [As for not wanting to argue with me, you know you enjoy it really 😉 ]

  49. Many thanks to Imogen for the lunch time coffee accompaniment and Loonapick for the parsing. I really did need a couple explained although the answers were clear. I am amazed it took until comment 45 for someone to mention the unusual answers to 14a and 15d in the blog.
    Terms like NEEDLES, IoW and, yes even, OS for the mappers have all turned up in previous crosswords so add a degree of extra thought for someone not British (I live in NZ) but they just add to the fun of the chase. They might not be immediate general knowledge for someone like me, but they are not unfindable. Now, British politicians are another matter.

  50. Mystogre@49: Yes, ordinarily I have trouble with these, but after the Scottish Rock Band discourse of a couple of days ago I just wrote in “NEEDLES” for that.

    Had a great time with this, thanks Imogen and loonapick. A lot of nice ones like 18d and 8d and 20d where the wordplay crosses syllabic lines in logical ways.

  51. Most enjoyable. Too many favourites to mention. Thanks very much to loonapick and Imogen. Bodycheetah @28 still smiling at the link, now there’s a man who’s not one to lose argument…

  52. By ‘eck, that were a toughie. It would have been a little easier had I seen all the anagrams, which would certainly have helped me to get into it. Got there in the end, working through the clues on and off for almost 24 hours!

  53. There’s a difference between clever and tortured, and the construction of many of these solutions is waaaay tortured. Get a grip, guys.

  55. Thanks loonapick and Imogen.

    Apologies for delay in posting but thought I’d give it a second bite today to see if it was as tough as I thought or if I was being a bit slow yesterday!

    Whilst I can understand why experienced solvers, as most of you are, prefer something like this to the normal Monday fare, to my money was a bit too tough for Monday and it is nice to have one puzzle a week that intermediate solvers have a chance at completing. This wasn’t it. Quite a few subtractions (some then with added elements eg reversals) which aren’t as intuitive as additions, and leave less skilled solvers in ‘guess from the definition/see if I can parse’ mode at best.

    Not saying it wasn’t a good puzzle, just not sure if it was appropriate for the Monday slot.

  56. Feeling quite proud of myself for finishing this. A couple of tentative guesses thrown out by ‘Check this’ then solved with a bit more thought, and a few visits to the Anagram helper. But no use of google, morewords, or ‘try every letter until one is correct’. Either I’m improving or I was on Imogen’s wavelength for once.
    Husband tried the paper version and only got two answers last night so I’m feeling smug.
    LOI 16a
    Favourite 14a which made me laugh.

  57. RichardCV22@36, yes I take your point and maybe this is too little too late but if one ‘has ONE’S NOSE to THE GRINDSTONE’ – hopefully not actually touching it! – aren’t we doing the sort of thing Imogen is asking of us here?
    If you don’t allow that (and the only other example I could think of is again PUTTING boot to ball) then I will have to concede that “to” is purely there to relieve surface tension – but even as a relatively new convert to crosswords I have already seen far more glaring examples and couldn’t bring myself to get worked up about this one.
    (The only other crossword I solve regularly is Private Eye and I am sure it would not even raise an eyebrow there, i wonder about the other dailies though.)

  58. I’m afraid I agree entirely with Jackie Clare Wood on this one, albeit there are some lovely clues, but for me interspersed with too much tenuous stuff. As a paper solver, I think this was yet another crossword designed for the CHECK button (which isn’t really cheating, of course!) and it would have been interesting to see the commentary on this had it been a prize puzzle.
    Come back, Vulcan!

  59. Gazzh@57 I fear your further examples also seem to require something more than just the word “to” on its own. I think we’re in agreement here that this is, to some extent, an editorial thing. I appreciate that Hugh Stephenson takes a much less Ximenean view of clue construction than do some other crossword editors, and some years ago I was rather less bothered about this sort of thing than I am now. But, as I have become more discerning, I do think that it is unfortunate that more notice is not taken by commentators on this site of the fine detail of clue construction – very few comments ever deal with an analysis of the make-up of clues, and I am grateful to you for entering into this discussion. Setting good concise cryptic clues is a difficult art and there is no excuse for experienced setters to introduce extraneous words just in order to improve surface readings. In this instance, as I said, it is all the more strange, given that under Richard Browne’s editorship the Times puzzle was fairly strictly Ximenean (and, in my view, all the better for it).

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