Guardian Cryptic 28,399 by Vulcan

69 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 28,399 by Vulcan”

1. A fine puzzle for beginners, as long as they like puns, especially not very good ones. Although to be fair, I did like FATHER CHRISTMAS.

   The “on thin ice” definition of SKATER is itself on thin ice, imo.

2. Fun and easy-ish puzzle.

   Favourites: ROOF GARDEN, NOONDAY, BLOTCHY, NEAR MISSES, OPTIMUM.

   In my opinion, the clue for 12ac was quite creepy.

   Thanks, Vulcan and Peter.

3. Yes michelle, first glance at 12ac had me thinking something p[a]edophile. Otherwise, pleasant enough. Funny how the brain works…first look at 20ac went ‘probly a complex anagram’, but with just the g from roof garden it jumped straight in. I quite liked the wall of corn, and Bertie Russell’s whisper. Thanks V and P.

4. [For posters on the Everyman, I’ve been doing old Araucarias and the one I did straight after the E had “Father keeps intermediary that eats shoots and leaves (5)”. Weird hey]

5. A pleasant solve with OPTIMUM, WORK-SHY, and FATHER CHRISTMAS being favourites, the latter for its sinful surface. Had trouble coming up with CORNWALL despite the fact that it was the destination on my first trip to Britain and JUROR despite the fact that I’ve served as one on numerous occasions. Have to dig deeper next time. Thanks Vulcan, and PeterO for the early blog.

6. Like michelle @2 and gif @3 I thought 12ac unsettling.

   I found this a bit heavy going unlike Saturday’s Prize strangely.

   Can someone please explain why MISERLY means NEAR in NEAR MISSES. Thanks

7. Fiona Anne @6: near is in the dictionaries as an archaic synonym for mean or stingy. Similar to ‘close’ which can mean uncommunicative – stingy with information.

   I recall some time ago encountering ‘car bomb’ clued in a crossword and somehow, no matter how cleverly it was done, it just stuck out as something deeply unpleasant in a pastime that’s meant to be pleasurable. Sorry, Vulcan, but I just find the same with 12ac – pretty sick imagery to support a rather weak definition.

   Thanks Vulcan and PeterO

8. 12a, unfortunately, then skewed my interpretation of the clues for 21a, 3d and 5d, too

9. I’m not at all easily offended. But I found the surface of 12ac quite unpleasant.

10. Thanks to Vulcan and PeterO.

    A pleasant solve for a Monday morning, although 12A felt a bit like the dodgy uncle at a jolly family get together telling a joke received in embarrassed silence. Probably best to change the subject and move on……

11. Easy start to the week but enjoyable. I had no problem with FATHER CHRISTMAS and I liked ROOF GARDEN and OPTIMUM.

    Ta Vulcan & PeterO

12. Had someone asked me to predict which UK “broadsheet” would publish a crossword clue riffing on child sex abuse in the Catholic church I probably wouldn’t have put my money on The Guardian

13. A nice Monday puzzle. Thanks Vulcan and PeterO. 12ac is a little bit suspect but ‘toying with’ can just mean teasing.

14. Yep, funny how commenters on the Guardian site get very exercised over non-existent racism but apparently are all quite happy today.

15. Not a write-in, so like PeterO I thought this pretty good for a Monday puzzle. EIGHTY was a bit of an odd clue; liked ON THE DOT, HOPE AGAINST HOPE and OPTIMUM. Yes, 12a was rather off. Thanks to V & P.

16. @JerryG….well, you don’t get sacked from the priesthood for teasing. Strange that anyone would attempt to defend this clue. It’s quite a good cryptic definition, but the editor should have binned it instantaneously.

17. Thanks Vulcan and PeterO
    I agree about 12, and would add that it isn’t a good clue either; “holiday” for “Christmas” is more or less the same thing twice, and “toying with children” only makes sense in the unpleasant meaning.
    ROOF GARDEN favourite.
    For anyone who wants a further challenge, the Quiptic is much harder!

18. What baerchen said @12 and 16. I was put off finishing this puzzle.

19. Thanks, PeterO, sorry about your daylight.

    Another who felt queezy (sp?) about the FATHER CHRISTMAS paedo reference, but it didn’t spoil the puzzle.

    Favourites included CORNWALL, EIGHTY, & HOPE AGAINST HOPE.

    Many thanks, Vulcan.

20. Yup, 12ac spoiled the puzzle for me.

21. Bravo for FATHER CHRISTMAS and ROOF GARDEN, both of which really tickled me.

22. Well said Baerchen at 16.
    The editor should have rejected 12a.
    It is deeply offensive.

23. Pleasant start to the week. I read 12ac quite differently, a character with a sack containing children’s toys. But I can now see another interpretation. I’m always delighted to see a Monday Vulcan as I know I’m in with a chance of completing, today’s a bit too quickly. Thanks to PeterO and Vulcan

24. I didn’t want to think about 12a, so I just left it until the crossers made it obvious, but I wouldn’t say the clue spoiled the crossword for me. A discussion of what is and is not suitable fodder for clues would perhaps be skating on thin ice.
    My thanks to Vulcan and PeterO.

25. Nice Monday puzzle slowed down by having to take son for a COVID test at 6.30 this morning (ugh). Luckily Maccies was open on the way back so I was in a sinful mood and was able to snigger (just) at 12a.

    Otherwise, reasonable Monday fare with a couple of slow-downs, no DNKs and some shocking puns.

    Thanks Vulcan and PeterO.

    [Shameless plug – if you’ve been using http://www.mycrossword.co.uk we have a new open forum forum.mycrossword.co.uk Feel free to stop by to discuss anything you like about the main site or in fact anything crossword-related. I’m not proud…]

26. Good Monday fare.

    Maybe people do not wish to be reminded but there are a lot of priests out there who have been sacked (or not!) for toying with children. Yes, it’s deeply unpleasant but that doesn’t stop people talking about it. I don’t think the setter should be given too much grief about this. It is, after all, unfortunately reported far too often in the newspapers.

    I did like ROOF GARDEN.

    Thanks Vulcan and PeterO.

27. baerchen @16 That’s right, you don’t even get sacked from the priesthood for child sex abuse.

    On a lighter note, I do think that thin ice could be introduced to Olympic figure skating to liven things up a bit.

    Thanks Vulcan and PeterO

28. Re 12ac: Dr. Samuel Johnson, having published his dictionary, and receiving congratulations by a group on his decision to exclude all indecent words answered, “Ladies, I congratulate your persistence in looking them up.”
    (With thanks to Christopher Hitchens.)

29. My mum always says if you’ve got nothing nice to say say nothing. So, it’s lovely out and I’m going for a bike ride 🙂

30. [Penfold @27: cracking suggestion!]

31. As a beginner I love Mondays! Only a Couple I couldn’t do, e.g. juror. Just a question of thinking a bit more laterally obvs. I even had passing thoughts about several being TOO EASY, with attendant eye rolling! I must be progressing A little.
    Ref. Fr Xmas – it’s strange how our collective consciousness changes over time. This clue would not have raised any comments some years ago. Now it causes Intakes of breath. etc. I once heard someone say that any myth that thinks putting an elderly man in the bedrooms of all the children in the world is a bit weird anyway?
    Anyway. Enjoyed today’s puzzle.

32. [Penfold @27, PostMark @30: Yes, intoducing that could be quite a breakthrough].

33. To sum up FATHER CHRISTMAS was SKATing on thin ice, and I was pleased to get to CORNWALL in the end in spite of a number of road blocks.

34. As a bit of an amateur, I look forward to Monday’s puzzle, but the surface on 12a was enough to put me off today. It didn’t even work that well as a clue, almost designed to offend.

35. I liked ROOF GARDEN, CORNWALL and also found 12ac icky.

36. Hilt @28: Thank you for your contribution of perspective. So annoying when contributors manage to turn innocent clues into something unsavoury.

37. [Petert @33 Road blocks – now there’s an idea.

    F1 could also do with a few changes, so that spectators can relate to it better. There should be traffic coming the other way, plus a few lorries and a caravan to overtake. Hamilton would be running away with the race, but then he comes up behind the caravan just before he reaches the chicane!

    As well as having to change their own tyres, drivers should fill up with petrol themselves and pay for it, so part of the strategy would be getting to the kiosk when there’s no queue at the till. Just a suggestion.]

38. 12a raised a dark laugh here once I got it, but I’m not sure that justified its inclusion – my LOI as I really didn’t want to engage with it, frankly.

39. Thanks Vulcan and PeterO!

    This blog is very interesting! Thank you all.

    HOPE AGAINST HOPE: A reference to Bob Hope. Right? A quarrel in Bob’s family will be (one) Hope (quarreling) agaist (another) Hope. Elementary? Sorry. Just wanted to check…

    That Samuel Johnson bit…ha ha ha. Liked it.

40. I entered my clue on the Guardian’s crossword blog for SCAPEGOAT, which I confess had similar undertones as 12a. It was promptly removed for being against community standards!

41. I solved 12a and thought ‘In the Guardian? Really?’ and moved very quickly on to the rest of the puzzle. Say sorry please, setter and editor.

42. essexboy@14 – That’s funny, as I saw a lot of complaints about 12a over at the Graun. Which gives me a good idea of how to read the rest of your comment.

    I’m torn over this. I thought it was a rather clever surface, but definitely near the knuckle, and likely to cause a degree of upset to some. Then again, the nature of crosswords is that clues hint at (and even refer directly to) sex, violence, disease, murder and plenty more. I’ve definitely read plenty of clues with a sharp intake of breath at the (presumably) intended surface implication, and I’m struggling to come up with a coherent reason why this one should be singled out as unacceptable.

43. This would have been a perfectly pitched Monday crossword with plenty to enjoy apart from 12a which was unexpected, to say the least

    Thanks to Vulcan and Peter O

44. The one I had trouble with was 23a: seeing “pieces” in the clue and knowing the first word to be **N, it was obviously MEN something – until it wasn’t.

    Same reaction as many to 12a: very clever clue, shame about the distasteful references.

45. [Penfold@37: I like your idea for adding a dose of reality to what I find possibly the world’s most boring sport. How about some roadworks and a coned off lane?]

46. Surely the whole point of cryptic crossword clues is that they use language in a surprising way which rarely if ever conveys the surface meaning. Isn’t that exactly what 12A does? Lots of people here choosing to take offence where I imagine none was intended.

47. left 25a blank because I couldn’t think of a homophone for wheeze – duh

    many thanks Vulcan & PeterO

    ps always did think elves were child substitutes

48. [gladys @45 Welcome to the Design Team.
    I’m just trying to figure out what to do with The Boat Race. Ideally I’d like some rapids by Harrod’s Depository, but I’m not convinced that’s entirely feasible. Maybe introduce a few crocodiles on Chiswick Eyot?]

49. [Penfold@48: there are already several seals resident in that stretch of the Thames – or perhaps sharks would add that little extra frisson of excitement, especially when the winning cox is thrown into the water.]

50. Thank you for the blog. I will follow bodycheetah@29 with my views on the crossword. Bring back Rufus, all is forgiven.

51. As Bodger says @42, with so many clues that can cause a sharp intake of breath with their surface imagery, it’s interesting to see what it takes to get near universal condemnation. I was horribly shocked by one in an Imogen puzzle a couple of months back: ‘Death – by hanging? (8)’, but as far as I can recall mine was the only voice raised to express abhorrence for the mental picture that it brought up.

    In the case of 12a here, I solved the clue so quickly that I barely had time to register the surface meaning, but on subsequent reflection you’ve got to ask yourself what the setter (and, assuming that he read the clues, the editor) thought they were doing. Is it meant to be funny? A priest dressed as Santa Claus with your seven year old daughter sitting on his lap? No, it’s really not funny.

    Olympic skating on thin ice – now that’s funny!

    I did like OPTI-MUM though – that raised a smile.

52. [Pl see my post under GD]

53. I took “toying with” to mean teasing, as in the supposed naughty-vs-nice suspense.

54. I am not easily offended, but let me add my weight to the criticism of 12a. Cryptic definitions are kind of like jokes, teasing you with an unexpected or unusual use of language. That some priests are child abusers seems an odd topic to joke about.

55. Nice easy start to a Monday. Initially a little surprised by 12ac as many others had commented. Was I the only one to put BIG BANG for 18dn?

56. 12ac….. Shock for a criminal revisited.
    I have to say the answer jumped out very quickly and the initial thoughts were that it was very clever, then the alternate version of toying leapt forth and I thought oh no. As a child of the 60s and 70s when this sort of stuff was very prevalent, especially amongst ‘authority figures’ it jarred. I won’t get offended on behalf of others, just say that it was in very poor taste. Grauniad has been rent asunder again. Thought medvedox, purplefluorspar and bingybing summed it up nicely.

57. I’m not sure how anyone can claim to know what was in the mind of the setter regarding 12a but it does seem like the editor was asleep at the wheel. Personally I saw SACK HOLIDAY TOYS and CHILDREN and biffed in FATHER CHRISTMAS and thought no more of it. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anyone use the word TOYING in a sexual sense but Chambers has an archaic definition for it. It’s entirely possible my offence threshold has been raised by too much Frankie Boyle and Bill Hicks

58. Think this belongs in general discussion now.

59. I am interested in BigNorm @46’s “choosing to take offence…”. That’s a weird way to put it. I am reading that many solvers had a visceral reastion to the surface (as I did) that it was unpleasant. Choosing to take offence implies that one reads it neutrally and then says to oneself “should I be upset by this? Not sure… oh well, I guess I will be”. Indeed, in all the cases I can recall of commenters “choosing to take offence” (including my reaction some time ago to a clue that referenced John Barnes, for which I received plenty of flak), it is this instant emotonal reaction that people are reporting on. Any choice is only in the choice to include one’s reactions in a comment. Perhaps that is an unwise choice sometimes, but what is this forum for, if not for solvers to report and discuss their reactions to the crossword?

60. [Tassie Tim @59 and anyone else interested in this, I have followed Taffy’s suggestion @58 of moving any further discussion on 12a and whether the clue was offensive or upsetting, or whether we “choose to take offence” to General Discussion.]

61. Tassie Tim @59 – there is a difference today in that some people are clearly taking offence, in that their concern is limited to finding the subject matter distasteful. Big Norm and the others can make battle with them. For us veteran virtue signallers of this site, there is no offence – more regret that insufficient consideration was given to the possibility that people whose lives have been impacted fundamentally by sexual abuse might be crossword solvers and that it is unlikely that they would find this trivialisation particularly therapeutic.

62. Like me, PererO didn’t know (Bert) Russell had a double L. Unfortunately I put it down as my answer to 11, but managed to correct after spotting hidden word in 7dn. Otherwise managed to finish -just! Thanks Peter and Vulcan.

63. Not sure why anyone should be heading over to General Discussion. For once we are actually discussing the content of the day’s crossword.

64. Van Winkle: It made sense to me because not everyone is a night owl like you and me, and if the discussion continues to the next day then GD is a more suitable forum. But perhaps there’ll be no need, as most who have commented here have been of one mind.

65. MikeH @55: Knowing that there are lots of Australian followers of these crosswords, and cricket references in the clues I went one mistake further and originally put Big Bash, until 26a went in, anyway. Wish I’d done this one before the quiptic this morning, although in a funny kind of a way everyone complaining about the quiptic cheered me up, a nice moment of solidarity in a troubled world.

66. Well, I finished this very quickly, with no visits to word lists or google. OK, I was held up for a while by ENORMOUS at 26a – memo to self, check anagrams properly. And I can’t spell RUSTLE. But otherwise I’m feeling proud of my achievement. (And happily ignoring the fact that it was a pretty gentle Monday puzzle.)

67. Thanks to PeterO and Vulcan . Standard Monday fare, I thought, with a few headscratching moments before light dawned. I too was mildly surprised by the Cyclops-style clue for 12ac, but didn’t think about it again after solving it. If I were wont to take offence I would have given up reading the Guardian long ago, but thankfully I’m the sort who laughs heartily at Steve Bell while wondering how he gets away with it.

68. Is 9A an extended definition? “Many more” being the straight part, because EIGHTY is many more than four, but we need the four for 20 X 4 = 80?

69. It looks like a cryptic definition that someone got cold feet about. Shame someone didn’t get cold feet about the other one.

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