Guardian Cryptic 28,533 by Brummie

83 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 28,533 by Brummie”

1. Not as extremely easy as Monday, nor as tedious as yesterday – yet still somewhat on the easy side — but worth it, if just for the loi (DAD’S ARMY). I understand there was later a movie (filmed in Bridlington old town?) — but it hasn’t reached here yet.

2. Enjoyable puzzle. Favourites: EXALTATION (foi), AD HOC, MURDER, PARLIAMENT, CHARM, GAGGLE.

   I did not parse: 24/10 DADS ARMY apart from anagram of mary.

   New: WHITE FRIAR, SPENDALL (only knew of spendthrift in the past, but the word spendall makes a lot of sense).

   Thanks, both.

   * I missed the theme.

   RIP Charlie Watts.
   I think there are quite a few Rolling Stones fans on this blog.

3. Yes, vale Charlie. ABC’s brekky programme played Satisfaction.
   Knew most of the collectives, tho not building, exaltation or prance, but still didn’t twig… dim! Spendall and White Friar I hadn’t met before, but no prob, in a puzzle with few probs … took a bit to redirect from ‘spell of cold weather’, but again that’s just me being gluey-brained. Buckle as anagrind was neat, but no doubt not a first. Enjoyed it, ta Brum and Peter.

4. Nice puzzle.

   I too wasn’t 100% sure about the rambling nature of GAGGLE, so I looked it up and found not that, but something else maybe of interest to others. A gaggle describes geese only when they’re on the ground; when they’re flying, they form a skein. Never knew.

5. [Yes, very sad about Charlie. It was a coincidence that Yes appeared in one of Boatman’s clues yesterday (or should I say Yes Tor day), because I was sitting with Chris Squire, whom we sadly lost a few years ago, in box seats at a Stones concert at Wembley in 1974 I think it was. I thought we were going to meet the Boys after the show, but it never happened.]

6. Thanks Brummie — I missed the theme but I often miss things I’m not looking for. I still enjoyed the crossword even though the NW corner gave me problems with TELEGRAM, IMPASSE, and BEVY (a drink?). I loved ADVERBS as well as MURDER (play the bongos again — RIP Charlie Watts). Thanks PeterO for the early blog.

7. Good theme. I had no idea about a BUILDING of rooks, but, yes “it’s in…” (at least one of the usual references anyway). Thanks Dr. WhatsOn @4 for pointing out the difference between a GAGGLE and a “skein” – new to me too.

   I wasn’t a big fan of PRANCE. I wondered if the anagram + N might come into it, but couldn’t fit this in to the wordplay. I did like the ‘(Say,) rather badly’ def for (Go easy on the) ADVERBS.

   Thanks to Brummie and PeterO

8. If we’re allowing part of a word, FALL may well qualify for the theme – a fall of woodcock?

   DrW @ 4: You are not the only one to learn something new from 12ac. I had RAGGLE which seemed to fit – rag being joke and I thought of the ‘raggle taggle gypsies oh’ which seemed to define a rambling group. However, it turns out that, as well as not fitting the theme, a raggle is actually a groove cut into masonry into which roof flashing might be set! Who’d a thunk it?

   Even with all the comment out there about Charlie Watts, I suspect DAD’S ARMY may well provide the earworm for the morning. Who DO you think you’re kidding, Mr Hitler?

   Thanks Brummie and PeterO

9. Lots of fun today, thanks Brummie. Of course, I didn’t get the theme. Never do. Well, hardly ever. But it’s great to have it pointed out afterwards on this blog. So thank you PeterO (and also for correcting my misparsing of DADS ARMY: I used Mary’s for the anagram and wondered why ‘music’.

10. TonyS @6. I had the same last three in. I’d normally write BEVVY for the drink, but BEVY seemed reasonable and necessary. Pleased to finish with IMPASSE which I enjoyed.

    Thanks Brummie. A nice level of difficulty for me. It’s satisfying to manage with just a pen! But I missed the theme completely and now have added to my collection of collective nouns. Thanks PeterO

11. Haven’t met SPENDALL before: didn’t get the parsing of DAD’S ARMY right. I saw the theme fairly early, so I was on the lookout for some of the familiar ones like MURDER and PARLIAMENT (how many times have we seen OWL clued as “member of Parliament?), but some I wasn’t sure of like BUILDING and PRANCE, and I thought FRIEZE might be one, but apparently not. Favourite was ADVERBS.

    [Yes, a sad, sad day for Stones fans: the heart of the band has stopped. I last saw them in 2018 – everyone having such a great time on stage.]

12. Thanks Brummie and PeterO
    I didn’t find this much fun – a lot of loose definitions and clumsy clueing. “Results” in 21d is odd; surely the clue would have been much better as:
    Caper when country’s leader is replaced
    Some indication of the abbreviation for “state” in 23a, and “old mesage” in 8d, would have been preferable.
    I liked WHITE FRIAR and GREEN ALGAE.

13. Thankfully, back to an enjoyable puzzle after yesterday’s slog.

14. Thanks to PeterO and Brummie. I enjoyed solving this especially 25a CHARM and 4d IMPASSE. I also appreciated finding the unexpected/prescient reference to drumming in 22a with REDRUM/MURDER. Dreadfully sad about Charlie Watts who epitomised 25a CHARM. I have been listening to my old Stones favourites all day and feeling so nostalgic. I was only consoled by the fact that I book-ended my long love affair with the greatest rock’n’roll band in the world with a live encounter in 1973 here in Australia and another in the US in 2019.
    Vale Charlie Watts and thank you for the great gift of music. Tributes that precede mine here are much appreciated.

15. The blog cleared up the parsing of 7 down for me, thanks. Was stuck on “SOL” for sun, which left me stranded…
    I must say I can’t stand the collective noun game, though. To me, pure sophistry, its only purpose being to correct others with all the smugness of Gerald the gorilla. A “flange of baboons” indeed.
    Thanks nevertheless to Brummie for a crossword at a manageable level for the likes of me.

16. I missed the theme too michelle@2 but enjoyed finding it by coming here.
    [And I am sorry – I meant to square bracket my comments about Charlie Watts]

17. [And I apologise for not saying I had the same experience as you, yesyes@9]

18. Missed the theme, of course. How do these terms arise?
    Is there a Society for the Promotion of Whimsical Collective Nouns?
    Thanks to PO abd Brummie.

19. I managed to miss the theme even after thinking, “How nice to have EXALTATION clued without any larks,” [ The Rolling Stones at Epsom Baths Hall in 1963 was the first gig I ever went to. A hard act for anyone else to follow] I liked DIGS.

20. Enjoyed this more than I usually do a Brummie. Perfect midweek puzzle IMO.
    (white friar new to me)

21. Obviously, I missed the theme as usual. No real problems apart from not having encountered SPENDALL before (word checker puts in a space, but I would have expected a hyphen). I thought “zips by” at 19D until realising it doesn’t fit.

    [Charlie was possibly one of the most underrated drummers of his generation, maybe because he wasn’t given to doing flashy stuff but was massively efficient in keeping the whole shooting-match together.]

22. Thanks for the blog , enjoyed this but very annoyed at myself for missing the theme completely.
    I know all the bird ones and I love terms like exaltation and charm
    Agree with J in A @14 that RE-DRUM is a nice original touch and strangely appropriate for today.

23. [ TR@21 , SPENDALL is in Chambers 93 with no hyphen , maybe once but lost over time. Most hyphens seem to disappear. ]

24. Eggs @15 (excuse the abbreviation 😉 ) /Auriga @18

    “its only purpose being to correct others” – I think that’s pretty close to the mark. Terms of venery (so says wiki) “can be shown to have already been part of French and English hunting terminology by the beginning of the 14th century. In the course of the 14th century, it became a courtly fashion to extend the vocabulary, and by the 15th century, the tendency had reached exaggerated and even satirical proportions…

    “Even in their original context of medieval venery, the terms were of the nature of kennings, intended as a mark of erudition of the gentlemen able to use them correctly rather than for practical communication.”

    Nevertheless thanks Brummie and PeterO (and Gerald). (And RIP, sadly departed member of the henge.)

25. Petert @19 I had the same thought but with PARLIAMENT / owls – the penny actually dropped for once

    There are a couple of newer collective nouns; an IMPASSE of Brexit negotiators, a SNOWFALL of millennials, and a MATRIX of Keanu Reeves obsessives 🙂

26. I enjoyed this, despite only getting the theme thre from the end!
    Auriga@18 I have long suspected similar. I’m convinced that the advent of the internet has enabled all sorts of pseudoetymologists to shoehorn their pet collective noun inventions into the public consciousness without a shred of authenticity!
    Thanks to Brummie and PeterO

27. I was diverted while typing and ended up posting after essexboy@24
    So it seems my suspicions were correct but the phenomenon much predates the internet!

28. I’m not a fan of collective nouns. Who on earth is the arbiter of these, and who gives a damn anyway!

29. I wouldn’t say that CARTLOAD would spring to mind quite as much as the oft used Shedload or even S***load these days, so was one of the very last ones in today. Liked the colour provided by both the GREEN ALGAE and the WHITE FRIAR, and I suppose I should also include SNOWFALL…

30. This passed the time pleasantly, despite some bizarre surfaces, although I didn’t clock the theme (as per usual).

    The most dubious of these collective nouns are those for birds such as larks and owls which are normally solitary and never seen in large groups. However, EXALTATION seems to be a long-standing usage; PARLIAMENT is much more recent (for owls, but not for rooks) – CS Lewis’s playful reference to Chaucer’s poem ‘Parlement of Foules’.

    Thanks to S&B

31. Unlike Tony Santucci @6, I was looking for a theme – Brummie’s puzzles have one more often than not – and I had an inkling at my second entry, EXALTATION, soon confirmed, as for others, by MURDER (refreshing, though poignant today, to have it clued by RE DRUM, rather than RED RUM) and PARLIAMENT.

    I couldn’t disagree more with Eggs etc @ 15: these seemingly random (I prefer Auriga’s ‘whimsical’) collective nouns are part of the CHARM of our language. We learned them in primary school for the 11-plus exam – totally illogical, I know! – so I’ve always known the difference between gaggle and skein, which always seemed to sound right to me, contrasting the ungainly movement of geese on land with their smooth and graceful progress through the air.

    I really enjoyed the solve (loved the clue for DAD’S ARMY).

    Many thanks to Brummie for the fun and to PeterO for the blog.

32. Enjoyable puzzle, easier than yesterday.

    Particularly enjoyed ADVERBS.

    I only spotted the theme towards the end as usual (for those I manage to spot at all)

    Interesting info EB thanks for the link. I wonder what a suitable collective noun for cruciverbalists would be?

    Thanks Brummie and PeterO

33. .. matrix maybe, except bc@25 has bagged it already..

34. … a griddle?

35. .. lattice … mesh …?

36. … a crypt?

37. A crypt @ 36 , brilliant . It works on so many levels.

38. Thanks for the crossword, Brummie. I didn’t realise there was a theme till I came here. I agree with previous comments about the uselessness of collective nouns. Incidentally, Gervase@30, long-eared owls tend to roost together – I was fortunate, many years ago, to see 7 roosting together in the Lee Valley, and I’ve been told that in some European towns you can see scops owls on every lamppost.

39. Eileen@31, I find myself firmly between two camps. Some collective nouns have an appropriateness that can add to descriptive writing, but others appear to be just an affectation (unless, as is likely, I am missing some clever allusion). And they seem sometimes to be used to demonstrate one’s “superior” knowledge.

40. I totally failed to spot the theme until checking here, but enjoyed the crossword. I use some of the collective nouns, walking fields to an exaltation of larks or spotting a charm of goldfinches sums up the birds. I did know that geese were only gaggles on land and skeins in the sky. I use those collectives too, along with herds, but not so much for rooks, because the one that actually applies to them is a clamour, which is uncommon.

    Nice suggestions @25 of additional collective nouns, love the IMPASSE and SNOWFALL. Can we add a FRIEZE of nudes?

41. Thanks Brummie and PeterO.
    Nice crossword. Completely missed the theme – so obvious once I came here and had it pointed out. I, too, like ‘whimsical’ collective nouns. Can’t remember where I came across it, but I always chuckle at a conversation of barbers.

42. [off topic]
    Eileen@31 Fair enough, if you enjoy the whimsicality. But to test school kids on them seems arbitrary and slightly cruel.
    In the spirit of goodwill, I will suggest “a Chamber of cruciverbalists”

43. [ …or “a Bletchley”? ]

44. Yes, I like both of those. 😉

45. A dawdle of solicitors.

46. Thank you Brummie and Peter O.
    Loved this, and the collective nouns. I wonder if other languages have such similarly absurd words, but they’re so telling of English heritage, and sense of humour (well I hope humour is what it is).

    Knew DAD’S ARMY, not only because my Dad loved the show, but also when I lived in London, as Australians were wont to do in the 70s , I stayed in a place in Maida Vale, with Arthur Lowe above me, and I heard him speak ( I won’t say what I heard him say to his wife) in a beautiful, mellow voice.
    [And Doris Lessing’s mail still came to the garden flat I was living in, below Mr Lowe, almost across the road from Lords. Those were the days. Sigh]

47. The exchanges above re collective nouns have given me slightly more pleasure than the crossword. I’m rather on the side of “charming and harmless enrichment of our language”.

    I think my favourite is the rather more recent coinage of a wunch for bankers.

    Many thanks both.

48. Eileen @42: love your chamber!!

49. Spelling not being my long suit, was moved to check EXALTATION v EXULTATION to find that they can both express joy but come from completely different Latin roots. The first from altus on high; and the second from salire to leap.

50. Sourdough@ 41. Tickled by the thought of a conversation of barbers. We can’t have a conversation with our barbers or hairdressers at the moment. We’re in lockdown and some of us for months. Wild, hairy colonials.

51. Hi William @48 – I can’t claim credit for that!

52. I enjoyed this, especially after yesterday’s failure. I did require a half-time stretch though, hence the PM post. [For some reason I was really saddened by the newsflash last night about Charlie Watts. The RS were never my favourite band but there was something so unRockandRoll about Charlie that made him stand out in his field. May he rest in peace. BTW loved DrWhatsOn’s story connecting Yes and the Stones.]

53. Eileen@31. I too remember learning the collective nouns for 11 plus,all lovingly listed in Angus McKiver’s book “First
    Aid in English”.

54. A giggle of schoolgirls?

    The RE DRUM/RED RUM/MURDER brought back that scene in The Shining!

    I saw The Stones in 65 and twice in 69.
    The basics were Mick, Keith and Charlie but Bill was a constant factor and Brian was great in early days.
    Charlie was unique!

55. I enjoyed the puzzle, completely missed the theme.

    I like the old collectives from venery days (people are still hunting, but not in the cultish fashion of old). I resist ones that somebody made up last week to be clever. They’re fun in conversations like this one, but I don’t think they get to become common parlance.

    Bletchley of cruciveralists seems a bit recherche (sorry, can’t do the accents).

    The original terms were from hunting, but who hunted larks or owls? What did those galloping toffs hunt besides deer? I don’t think foxes were on the menu back then.

56. Roman @53 – I remember that book. I’ve just done a bit of digging and I reckon you could make a killing if you have an original copy!

    Valentine @55 – try here .

57. Valentine @55 , lark’s tongues in aspic was a royal delicacy ( as well as an album by King Crimson ) .
    Animals were not hunted just for food but also for “sport ” , it still happens to some extent.

58. [I’m a little surprised by the dislike of collective nouns, they’ve long been a source of amusement to me, even some of new pun based ones.

    Eggs@42, I particularly enjoyed your suggestion of “A Chamber of cruciverbalists”

    Eileen@56 thanks for the link, I was acutely aware of missing accents when replying to EB a few days ago. (Pun not intended)]

59. [So many comments on collective nouns — a clutch of pearls comes to mind.]

60. Excellent.
    I tumbled the theme early which didn’t really help as my knowledge of collective nouns for birds is pretty poor, though I did get MURDER via the theme.
    Much to like, I completed about two-thirds for the puzzle, which is two-thirds than more than usual for a Brummie puzzle.
    A few parsings to check, thanks all.

61. Lovely crossword today, thanks Brummie! I particularly enjoyed the Mere Man and the joke leg for the ramblers.

    [ I’m also enjoying everyone’s memories and tributes to Charlie Watts. The Stones have always been been a big part of my life, and I actually met them when they were playing my local concert hall in January 1964. During the interval I just made my way backstage and there they were in their dressing room – those were the days! Not a Hells Angel in sight! – and made a beeline for my favourite Brian Jones, who was combing his long blond locks. An irate security guard then appeared and demanded to know what I was doing there, and Keith Richard (bless him!) said Ah leave her alone, she’s just a kid. Which I was – bespectacled and flat-chested, and clearly not groupie material. So I finally found some advantages in being a late developer!]

62. Simon S @45 I am trying to move house at the moment and I could think of several unprintable words for a collection of Solicitors.

63. Great stuff. Thanks to Brummie and PeterO.

    Not a fan of collective nouns as I find they are unnecessary baggage in life – how often are they needed? Nonetheless I propose a “battery” of watts given the day that’s in it.

64. A singleton of robin – would that work as a collective noun?

65. I’m not sure what happened to my post this morning. Anyway, what about a badelynge of ducks? If you want more of that ilk, please see here.

    I, of course, missed the theme but enjoyed it nevertheless. I liked SNOWFALL, CHARM and DAD’S ARMY.

    Thanks Brummie and PeterO.

66. What a fascinating site, Robi! Thanks so much for the link.

67. William @49 – I did the same check! Somehow exUltation seems more appropriate than exAltation, but apparently the latter also means joy. Who knew…

68. Got the theme early but didn’t help much apart from the obvious MURDER and PARLIAMENT. A mixed bag for me today.
    [Roz @ 57: you mention one of my favourite bands and with Yes in the frame yesterday my nostalgic juices overfloweth. Strangely, I was rereading Nick Kent’s ‘Apathy for the Devil’ yesterday (the title refers to Lou Reed’s sour appraisal of the Rolling Stones in 1975), so last night’s announcement about CW was particularly sad].

    Ta Brummie & PeterO

69. [On Charlie Watts, I heard on the radio this morning that, on Desert Island Discs, he said that the only radio station he ever listened to was Radio 3.- he had to have how to listen to Radio 6 explained to him. Mind you, it was on Radio 3 that I heard it!]

70. [ AlanC @ 68 I inherited all the early albums, Pink Island label , proper vinyl. My parents tell me I was born on the same day as In The Wake of Poseidon. On today’s topic they used a percussionist Jamie Muir on just one album – Larks ………..- very talented and strange, the story is that he joined a monastery straight after. ]

71. [I’ve a rock-related comment in General Discussion.]

72. Thanks Brummie and PeterO. Managed to solve AND parse everything today, so was feeling smug until I came here and discovered I’d missed the theme entirely. Doh!

    Some very nice clues here – particularly enjoyed ADVERBS. (And because I enjoyed it overall, I’ll excuse Brummie for a few nonsensical surfaces, eg 19dn)

    Alphalpha @63 – how often are they needed? Every time someone uses them as a theme for a crossword…

    I’m in favour of whimsicality, on the whole. It’s one of the reasons I like doing crosswords.

73. By the way, am I the only one who saw “…classic sitcom (4,4)” and instantly thought ALLO ALLO?

    Luckily the crossing letters quickly disabused me of that notion.

74. Sufficiently chewy for my lunchtime solve, but no real parsing hang-ups. I tried DRAW ARMS the first time through, which works in isolation.
    I enjoy collective nouns, so liked the theme. MURDER was my way in. I find the concept of collective nouns for different circumstances, like Eileen’s GAGGLE/SKEIN, particularly amusing. A raft (in the water)/waddle (on land) of penguins is another example.
    Thanks, Brummie and Peter.

75. widdersbel@72: Tou (so to speak) ché.

    For all that they just clutter up the language: to pick one at random how lagging must the conversation be for one’s recent observation of a multiplicity of, say, eels to require that they be described as an “array” rather than just a plethora, a multiplicity, an abundance, loads, lots, plenty, very many (and swan).

    “I saw an aurora of polar bears once.” “As many as that, Lord Chief Justice? That must have been a fascinating sight.” “Well yes it was.”

    I had a DNF on CARTLOAD, my bad (it was around recently enough), and am inclined to suggest that its use should be expanded to replace all collective nouns; as it is the word is confined to the plurality of plague victims and condemned prisoners (before and after). It’s a fine old word: think of a cartload of humming birds – how poetic.

76. Thanks Brummie and Peter O! I solved and parsed them all but got stuck on DADS not knowing the show, and like others missed the theme. I dug DIGS and was charmed by CHARM.

    I’m on team collective nouns, but mostly just to have conversations like the above consisting in “did you know a group of X is called Y?” and “what should the collective noun for a group of Z be?”

77. Tsk Tsk my favourite fesnyng was not included. JK a great puzzle even I had to reveal a couple.

78. It is perhaps surprising to find a grumble of curmudgeons claiming, here on a website dedicated to what can only be described as playing with the words of the English language, that they find nothing amusing about collective nouns. “Unnecessary baggage in life”, indeed!

    I thought the suggestion of a “Bletchley of cruciverbalists” was very clever, and would (with an explanation of how the Enigma codebreakers were recruited, perhaps) have been appreciated by the people that are known to have played the Venereal Game more than five centuries ago, when English was almost unrecognisable to our modern eyes. No doubt there were some even then who said “I must say I can’t stand the collective noun game”.

79. [My wife’s eldest brother went to school with Mick Jagger and so her family knew the whole group in the very early days. One of her “claims to fame” is that Mick slept in her bed. (She wasn’t in it and was eight at the time.)]

80. Somebody commented that this venereal collectivism must be unique to English, but I see from Robi’s site @65 that it originated in France. They probably have quite a collection too.

81. I assumed CARTLOAD must be monkeys, but that’s more usually a wagonload, isn’t it.

    Alphalpha @63: a battery of watts is wonderful: the drums in French are la batterie and at concerts in French-speaking venues, Mick will do the introductions in impeccablw French…
    À la batterie…. Charlie Watts!”

82. Grrrr. My impeccable is not impeccable.

83. A late comment on collective nouns: if they were taught at certain primary schools for the 11+, that rather reinforces the point that their purpose is just to prove ones superior knowledge because one went to “the right schools”.
    According to wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_noun) when applied to animals these are “terms of venery” and derive from hunting traditions. Wikipedia says “Even in their original context of medieval venery, the terms were of the nature of kennings, intended as a mark of erudition of the gentlemen able to use them correctly rather than for practical communication.”

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