Guardian 28,581 — Brummie

102 comments on “Guardian 28,581 — Brummie”

1. All my friends from Mars call themselves Martians, not MARTIALs. (Some of the female ones still stick with Martianess, but the more progressive element, especially readers of the New Martian and the Mras Grauniad, tend to eschew gender-specific titles.) And I thought FLAGEOLET was a bean. But I wrote both of them in anyway with what ginf calls a shrug and bung, so I’m going to count that as a win.

   I got the COURTS too late for them to help, but I enjoyed spotting them afterwards. Thanks Brummie and Andrew.

2. P.S. The blog doesn’t seem to be listed in the ‘Guardian’ category?

3. Fun puzzle. Most of the GK references were familiar to me.
   I spotted the theme after I finished the puzzle. The 10 theme-related words that I saw are the same as Andrew’s list, along with COURT itself.

   Solved SW corner last.

   Favourites: SAMOSA, APPEAL.

   New for me: NAUTILUS submarine; CHANTRY = chapel.

   Thanks, both.

4. essexboy: it should be categorised correctly now, thanks for pointing out.

5. A lovely uncomplicated offering this morning with a nicely unobtrusive theme (which means I didn’t spot it til too late). LEG IRON a particularly smooth favourite. I suspected MARTIAL might court controversy – it had to be what it turned out to be and I assumed it would be archaic. As eb says (with a nod to ginf), entered with a shrug and a bung – a shrung?

   Thanks Brummie and Andrew

6. Very enjoyable crossword and an amusing posting by essexboy @1, so thanks for that.

7. The theme totally escaped me largely because solving was over in a flash. Very unlike Brummie I thought.
   Thanks all.

8. What, no “Margaret”? Er…, no I’m afraid not these days. If no one else does, ginf (another mention) will know what I’m talking about.

   Surprisingly benign for a Brummie and I was able to (eventually) spot the theme which helped with JESTER. I learnt a new word in BANDEROL and liked the ‘Prone to an outburst’ def for VOLCANIC.

   Thanks to Brummie and Andrew

9. Some help, please!

   24 AC: The complete clue indicates ‘jester’,

   but I am missing the cryptic part…

10. I thought the positioning of COURT as last clue 23D was clever, if you’re a solver who does them in order (which I never do). I had a bit of trouble with that clue, thinking that the def was at the other end.

    My ‘in’ for the theme was KANGAROO COURT and EARLS COURT, which as an Aussie I’m familiar with, {having lived in Earls Court in the mid 70s]. Now working in the legal system helped as well for some of the others.

    I also had a quibble about MARTIAL, and couldn’t find an online dictionary/thesaurus, except etymologically, which gave that, but I’ll pay it anyway.

    FLAGEOLET my favourite. Never heard of it, but the cluing was inspirational.

11. And at this time of year downunder we’ve got the TENNIS, GRASS, SHOE and COURT associations. What no CLAY, formerly known as?

12. Complete theme bypass here but maybe it explains why this felt a bit pub quizzy at times. I do enjoy FLAGEOLET beans but they’re weirdly hard to get hold of round here

13. Thanks Brummie and Andrew
    Quick, but I was so thrown by MARTIAL that I tried MARSHAL first (I think that’s the sports’ event official, Andrew – your is the lawman), which delayed NAUTILUS.
    “Broad” is superfluous in 6a and also confused me for a while.
    Lots of nice ones, though. KANGAROO was favourite.
    Didn’t see the theme, of course…

14. I was grateful for an easier crossword after yesterday’s challenge. Didn’t spot the theme (hardly ever do) but love it. Loved SYSTEMIC for the dystopian images it conjured up.

    Thanks Brummie and Andrew

15. me @14
    Google tells me that both the lawman and the official are “marshal”; “marshall” seems just to be a name.

16. BANDEROL was a new one for me, though the clue wasn’t difficult once I stopped trying to force an unparsed BANNERET into the space. Didn’t see the theme at all, and JESTER was my last in. Kurukveera @9, it’s just a (not terribly) cryptic definition and doesn’t need extra wordplay.

    I’ll accept that MARTIAL is an adjective meaning “of Mars, the god of war” but not “from the planet Mars” as is clearly indicated in the clue. Or were warlike astrological influences once thought to come from the planet?

    I usually write the plant Golden Rod as two words, but I may well be wrong.

17. Well, it may have been almost a write-in but it was a most amusing and enjoyable one, especially as I’m one of those boring people who tackle the clues in order, so arriving at the final COURT was a quite delicious pdm.

    On the way, I enjoyed the lap-dancing, FLAGEOLET, LEG-IRON, ORATORIOS, CADENZA and the quirky MARTIAL (Chambers gives ‘belonging or relating to Mars the god of war or to the planet Mars’, so no problem there)

    Many thanks to Brummie for the fun and to Andrew for the blog..

18. Quick, enjoyable crossword. Like muffin @13 I tried MARSHAL first for 20d. MARTIAL to me is more about the military, but Chambers has pertaining to Mars as the first definition. But then he was the god of war. As ever with homonyms I wasn’t 100% sure whether to enter SHOO or SHOE for 6a.

    This is the sort of theme I like. One I don’t notice at all. Though maybe if I had it would have made shoo/shoe obvious.

    Thanks Brummie and Andrew.

19. I know I’ll be the receiver of wrath for this but, really, this was just too easy to be any fun.
    I wish we could have a toughie for the cryptic every day – and maybe a Quiptic every day too, so everyone is happy. The way the difficulty level veers from one extreme to the other means it’s hard to say ‘I enjoy the Guardian Cryptic ´.
    I really enjoy the Guardian Cryptic, er, sometimes.

20. Fun resonance getting (court) jester after Penfold’s Danny Kaye riff yesterday

21. Enjoyed that

    Favourites: NAUTILIS, KANGAROO, VOLCANOC, ORATORIOS, LEG IRON

    Thanks Brummie and Andrew

22. Eileen@17. I would never consider you as ‘boring’! I’m impressed by your solving the clues in order. I enter a letter here and a letter there all over the grid, depending on things I think I get from the grammar and wordplay. Maybe I should try your technique. It might open my eyes, and save lots of erasing.

23. Most enjoyable but no write-in for this plodder.

    Spent ages looking for a double def in JESTER and completely missed all the courts.

    Many thanks both.

24. Eileen @17: When you say you tackle the clues in order, do you mean you try to finish all the acrosses before tackling the downs?

25. ooops NAUTILUS and VOLCANIC (typing too fast)

26. Over too quick, but fun while it lasted. COURT was my LOI so I missed the theme entirely.

    SANS SERIF had to be favourite as it always conjures memories of the Grauniad April Fools Day spoof, back when people were actually taken in by them.

    Thanks to Brummie and Andrew

27. Even though I looked for a theme it gave me the slip, and I clutched at straws: music, figures, poets & gods.
    Great fun, thanks Brummie & Andrew.

28. [Eileen @17 I always attempt the across clues in order, and then continue with the down clues in reverse order. Which is fairly weird I suppose. ]

29. … not, of course, that I twigged while solving .. with a hey ho and shrug. Liked your f[l]ravioli joke, eb @1. [Reminds me of the late and loved Mrs ginf, who, in Italy, used to say Whatever you do, DON’T try to pun, your Italian’s nowhere near good enough and you’re bound to eff it up and offend someone].

30. [Crossbar@28. Does that explain your moniker?]

31. [pdm @22: as Eileen knows, I follow her technique too. It can be quite fun to impose the self-discipline not to go back to ones you’ve passed over on first glance but to continue to the end. With any luck you now get to look afresh at a grid with a reasonable sprinkling of words and going back over it again can be quite swift as things fall into place. Whilst I rarely consider any puzzle a write in, today I filled in some three quarters on first pass and, yes, those that remained when I returned to the top went in very easily – except JESTER who had the last laugh.]

32. Grrr autothing … f[l]agioli …

33. [paddymelon @30 Must have been subconsciously :-)]

34. What Eileen said

    thanks to Brummie and Andrew

35. [Bother, I’ve forgotten how to do emojis here. One of the following should work ? :)]

36. [No – can someone remind me please]

37. Dictionary.com says cadenza is “Southern African informal for a fit or convulsion”!

38. Straightforward and over too soon. Missed the theme sadly. And another who thought marshal b4 seeing it had to be martial. Chantry was a TILT. Thanks to B and A

39. Oddly enough, I got more without recourse to any aids yesterday than I did today…

40. 16ac Prone to an outburst against rough calico around neck opening.
    I think the V could come from V-necked jumpers, which have a v opening.

41. Did anyone else think that “jumper” instead of “bounder” in 8a for KANGAROO would have gone nicely with the angora in the clue?

42. Kurukveera@9 – the cryptic part of 24A is its superficial reference to the Royal Variety Show. I am unsure if this was still going on pre-pandemic etc, but it used to be an annual evening of entertainment in a West End London theatre, where invited acts from different genres came and performed before an invited audience, including royalty, and it got televised and made money for charity. It was a sort of turbocharged Music Hall evening where the Beatles might do a spot straight after a magician or a crooner (famously, the Beatles were on it one year and John Lennon invited the audience to clap along to the song or, if in the Royal Circle, to rattle their jewellery).

43. What Eileen said

44. [Cross bar @36
    You need to leave a space after 🙂 ]

45. An enjoyable solve and certainly more accessible than yesterday! Top half went in pretty quickly although a handful lower down slowed me up a bit. Didn’t spot the theme until I came here.

    Must confess I only knew FLAGEOLET as a bean!

    Re solving order, I go through all the acrosses then the downs in order, filling in what I can, then look at those with crossers in.

46. William @24 – yes!

    Crossbar @ 35/36 – see here http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/06/19/emoticons/

47. Crossbar @41
    Lovely idea, but do they jump rather than bound?

48. Smooth and lots of fun; stumbled over MARTIAL, but otherwise a gnash-free solve. Thanks to Brummie and Andrew.

49. [Ah. Thanks muffin @44 . Here goes 🙂 ]

50. [On the order of solving, I always start with any there along to the top or down the LHS, to hopefully give me first letters; I find the first letter aids my solving enormously. Do others find the same?]

51. [Thanks Eileen @46. We crossed]

    Muffin @47. Yes bound is the better verb. But jumper amused me.

52. [muffin @50. Oh yes, the first letter is always a big help, as are any more unusual letters such as V J W K even B etc anywhere in the solution.]

53. [muffin @50 – I use the Anna method – never enter an answer unless there is already at least one crossing letter solved. The only problem is getting started… ]

54. Ark Lark @26

    Thank you for mentioning the brilliant SANS SERRIFFE spoof. It always springs to my mind, too, as it’s the first one I remember seeing (in 1977!).
    Since you didn’t provide the link, I’ll indulge myself – again!

    See here – it’s well worth a thorough read.

55. What Eileen said!

56. Brummie is sometimes a test for me so I felt pretty pleased with a quick solve only to find everyone else thought it was quick too. Ah well. Shorter than yesterday that’s for sure.
    Sagittarius @42, yes the Royal Variety Performance is still very much a thing, even though ‘variety’ barely lives on as a genre outside the likes of TV talent shows. I guess it was instituted as a way of letting the royals get down and dirty with common folk, much in the same way that there is a Royal Pigeon Racing Association.

57. I was interested in the way Brummie felt the need to signal the ‘def by example’ of ‘broad brogue’=SHOE with a monitory ‘say’, whereas in yesterday’s Cryptic Imogen didn’t feel that any qualification was needed in defining ‘dress’=SHEATH.
    This wasn’t *too* easy for me — I found the clues to be fair and straightforward, with many slick surfaces and and a satisfying solve.

58. muffin @50 yes, the first letter is a help but not at the cost of spending too long on the clue.

    My current technique is a quick scan of all the clues to see what goes in quickly, which varies from none at all to a large part of the crossword. The I look at where I have crossers for ones to retry or which ones might be more useful.

    When solving online my first pass of the down clues is from left side to right side rather than clue order.

59. [Sag @42, loved Lennon’s royal jewelry joke. It was at one of those shows that I first saw Billy Connolly, who strolled on, strumming his guitar, and said Hi I’m Billy Connolly, the man who put the c… in country music. I think Charles and Di were there, among others]

60. Thanks for the blog.

    Why is GEO George?

    As part of the 1977 San Seriffe spoof there were various other elements, aside from the pics of dictator in sunglasses, puff re terrorism on beaches ‘almost’ eliminated etc, there was a brief aticle from Guinness about their crops which made the bubbles flow upwards rather than downwards and you could send off for some – we did – and received a free Guinness pint mug which was printed upside down. Well done Guinness.

61. Thanks to both and all over too quickly as has been said (although some pause for thought when JESTER suggested the possibility of a pangram and APPEAL took far too long for no reason).

    For those interested the FLAGEOLET is a popular instrument in traditional Irish music and, in spite of appearances, is very difficult to play well (for my own part I cannot play any instrument that involves oral insertion – we was poor and anything that goes in the mouth is taken to be food, with attendant salivation: not a pretty sight).

62. Bill@40: A reasonable hypothesis but then the word “against” would be redundant and we would be shy an “n”.

63. Fairly straightforward but enjoyable, nonetheless.

    I, of course, missed the theme entirely, which had I twigged might have helped with my LOI JESTER. I liked CLEANSED and FLAGEOLET, which I pieced together, and then it looked somewhat familiar.

    Thanks Brummie and Andrew.

64. Andy Smith @60
    Standard abbreviation, particularly with tradesmen: for example
    “Geo. Smith & Sons, Plumbers”

65. Andy Smith @60

    Yes, it’s well worth reading the details in the link I gave @54.

    Correction to my post there: of course, Richard Dimbleby’s spaghetti harvest is the furthest-back spoof I remember. 🙂

66. Thanks for the blog, nice and tidy clues here, only JESTER was a bit weak I thought. There was a theme ?
    A lot of techniques mentioned , I always attempt the Across in order and then the Down in order without looking at the grid, each clue is treated fairly then .I then just tackle corners for whatever is left.
    For Azed I use the Muffin@50 method, first letters are precious and I am solving to time.

67. pserve_p2 @57, I would have preferred the 6a clue without the “, say” which I initially saw as a second homophone indicator, and which left me slightly puzzled as the definition seemed to be in the middle rather than the conventional start or finish of the clue. I also thought it was unnecessary, as “brogue” leads straightforwardly to “shoe”; clueing “shoe” to lead to “brogue” would be rather less kind.

    It’s a little disappointing, though hardly surprising, that everyone else seems to have found this puzzle as easy as I did – even BANDEROL was reasonable, though I had to check that the word existed and what it meant. Unlike trishincharente, I enjoyed solving the puzzle quickly, perhaps because that is such an unusual experience for me.

68. No-one has responded to my comment about the superfluous “broad” in 6a. It’s one of those nouns that implies its adjective – brogues, whether accents or shoes, are always broad (for example, “Startrite brogues” for children with wide feet).
    A similar example would be “eel”. You might say “as slippery as an eel”, but there would be little point in saying “a slippery eel”.

69. What everyone said

    Ta Brummie & Andrew

70. Eileen@65 – Thanks, missed your link. A brilliant spoof, must have been a lot of fun for those involved.

71. As others above have said, the Sans Seriffe spoof was brilliant. I don’t think anything else has ever surpassed it. I knew nothing at the time about fonts and printing so was totally misled at first and thought it was a real Island. The Graun was in the habit of doing occasional several page pull-outs about small unknown countries at the time.

72. I look at the clues in order until I find one that I can solve (which may take me some distance into the down clues on a bad day). Then I work on clues for which I now have crossers, and progress outwards in all directions from there. Only if I am temporarily stumped do I try the next “blank” clue. You will deduce from this that I am pretty useless at solving clues in isolation, which is why I seldom attempt jigsaws. (Yes, I find initial letters much more helpful than any other kind of crosser.)

73. Alphalpha@61: So it’s the original name of the instrument played so beautifully by the (late, alas) Paddy Moloney? Thanks for the link.

74. I usually say “There was a theme?” but I see that Roz @66 has beaten me to it, so I’ll just say thanks to Brummie and to Andrew.

    [pserve_p2 @57. There was no need for Imogen to indicate a definition by example in the clue for SHEATH, as ‘dress’ in the clue is not an example of a sheath; a sheath is a type of dress. In the same way ‘boxer’=ALI, but ‘Ali, say’=BOXER.]

75. Thanks both,
    Pserve_pr @57. A DBE indicator is needed for brogue=shoe because shoe is being defined by an example. But none is required for dress=sheath because sheath isn’t defining dress. Not all shoes are brogues but all sheathes (in this context) are dresses.

76. gladys@73: Indeed it is the flageolet, although I’d say you’d be hard pressed to find anyone younger than me who would call it that – it’s a tin whistle (and a penny whistle back in the day) for general purposes. The linked clip was made to promote a recording by Paddy Moloney and (the, alas, also late) Seán Potts called “Tin Whistles”. Paddy’s musicianship can be judged from the fact that he eventually harmonises the second reel – no mean feat and, fairly revolutionary at the time, is not something that many could or can do. I met him once and he was a thorough gentleman but all who encountered him knew that. It’s nice that coincidence allows him to be remembered in this forum which has noted the passing of too many fine musicians.

77. muffin@68: I think the “broad” in the clue for SHOE is there for the surface – a “brogue” would always have an accompanying illustrator (a “broad”, “rich”, “sweet”, “thick”, whatever…) and would seem naked on its own. I agree it weakens the clue but somewhat inescapable imho.

78. Am I the only person who’s never heard of Charlie Chan…?

    Mostly quite easy (which is good for an amateur like me!) but new words were CHANTRY, FLAGEOLET and BANDEROL.

    Thanks both!

79. Thanks Brummie for some light entertainment — I needed that after doing miserably with Bluth in yesterday’s Indy. Favourites were APPEAL and CHANTRY. Thanks Andrew for the blog.

80. Charlie Chan:

    A pity that a character originally intended to counter offensively racist depictions of Oriental villains should himself come to be seen as a racist stereotype.

81. That was definitely pitched correctly for the day of the week compared to yesterday’s offering.
    Missed the theme, as usual. JESTER really did not leap out as a result.
    Just a few I found a bit taxing (ELS in EARLS and MARTIAL with a T, overlooked the broadcast – again. MERCURY fitted with no reason to), I tried CHANCEL before reverting to CHANTRY.
    I too pass over the across clues, then the down and hope that there are some crossers that then open up other clues. Doesn’t always work.
    There’s a bottom right (SE) corner maxim that the setter has grown tired of convoluted wordplay and clues these more easily. I tend to find the ‘words within the clues’ and simpler anagrams and every first letter types hang out here. (HOUSE and COURT being friendly today).
    Thanks very much to Brummie and Andrew.

82. Without wishing to come over all ‘PC’, I was surprised that ‘exotic’ passed the Guardian Style guide as a description of Charlie Chan?

    Otherwise great fun and an antidote to yesterday’s (which I am happy about!).

83. [Alphalpha @61: he was indeed as sound as a pound. Lovely fella]

84. [I’ve just watched the BBC doc on the Chieftains, great stuff. I grew up in a v Proddy area in Belfast and in lower sixth at school, some of us started listening to trad music much to the disapproval of others. The Chieftains were def our fave]

85. Taffy@81, MrEssexboy added an interesting late post to the Imogen blog yesterday, it was about difficulty depending on setters father than the actual day. Monday seems to be the friendliest consistently but the other days seem to change randomly now. I remember a time when Wednesday and Saturday were nearly always the tough days. Brummie is always good value , even when harder than this because the clues are very fair and interesting. I started on the Everyman and it is still available every Sunday.

86. Sorry Gladys @73: I failed to reference your comment.

87. Thanks Brummie and Andrew. I didn’t find this all that easy, and JESTER completely stumped me. Wavelength issues. Maybe down to tiredness. But at least I have heard of the instrument as well as the bean, unlike some of you! Theme completely passed me by.

    I’m another who always works through the clues sequentially – all the across in order, then all the downs in order. Then if I have one particular area where I have a few solutions providing lots of useful crossing letters, I tend to focus on that area and spread out from there. Today I was left with a big hole in the SW corner after the first pass and it took a while to work my way into it.

    gladys @16 – OED confirms this usage but lists it as obsolete, with the only citation being from a science fiction novel of 1880 – Across the Zodiac by Percy Greg – sounds intriguing.

    Stuart @82 – yes, I also raised an eyebrow at ‘exotic’. Definitely not the preferred terminology these days.

88. I have to agree with trishincharente @19 that “this was just too easy to be any fun”. I’m amazed that Roz didn’t blow a gasket, but she clearly likes Brummie’s puzzles – as do I, normally.

89. WP @8, sorry, bit late, but yes, the Arena argument, whether to honour her skill despite her views, is a bit like the one about Wagner’s art vs his antisemitism…not sure where I stand about either one… (… Jefferson’s statue, though, is coming down, I believe..)

90. As a matter of interest, are the people raising their eyebrows at “exotic” from the USA?

91. Had a horrendously long and confrontational day so this was just what I needed for an evening solve to relax. Nothing too complicated but not exactly a write in either at least not for me.

    I quite liked the cd for JESTER, it made me chuckle when I saw it.

    A couple of eyebrows but Chambers supported them as mentioned a few times above, and I must be getting more socially aware as exotic was at least a double eyebrow. Next I’ll be supporting the suffragettes heavens forfend!

    Thanks Brummie and Andrew.

92. gladys @90 – no, I’m from the benighted kingdom

    It was only a mild eyebrow raise though – I don’t really mind ‘exotic’ here as it seems fitting to describe Charlie Chan. I’d be more troubled if Brummie had referred to DS John Ho as ‘exotic’.

93. Hmm – I have had the impression from conversations on other boards that it was a more sensitive word in the US, originally when applied to an actor’s appearance, but more recently all use of the word seems to now be taboo even to describe less controversial things like an “exotic location” for a film. Obviously the blanket ban has now jumped the Atlantic.

94. It’s not a ban. It’s never a ban.

    The problem with ‘exotic’ is that it is often used in a way that is superficially intended to be complimentary but has an ‘othering’ effect.

    I don’t think that really applies when we’re talking about Charlie Chan, but It doesn’t hurt to be sensitive to these nuances.

95. Roz @85. Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention, I have left effusive thanks to you both there. I agree that one quickly learns to appreciate the setters who appeal to them (Brummie and Brendan amongst others for me).

    Regarding the “Exotic” debate, I had a quick look through my rarely thumbed Chambers and notice quite a few entries along the lines of “Ethnic”, “Foreign”, “Non-Native” so in Crossword terms that, I believe, makes it fine. In modern discourse very much deprecated usage I suspect.

96. I spent some time (but long ago when time was cheap) in Llanberis. What with the narrow gauge railways, dry counties nearby (as in no pubs, no alcohol, nada) and the skinheads speaking Welsh on street corners I found it very exotic. There will be those who find morris dancing (say) exotic. The word has an ordinary function in communication. That Brummie finds Charlie Chan exotic and would expect solvers to reason similarly is surely acceptable.

97. No, of course there isn’t a ban, and I can understand why a British Black or Asian person can be offended by someone describing their looks as exotic. The complimenter means well, but the recipient hears “you’re foreign, you don’t belong here”. I would not now use it in that context. But by extension, the use of the word even in completely innocuous contexts is now likely to be picked up on and criticised. The example I encountered was the description of certain concert venues in India and the Far East as “exotic”. There were immediate complaints from US participants in the discussion that the word was offensive, and it had to be changed.

98. Brummie must be feeling bad for all the anguish he has caused me over the years. Either that or he’s building up my confidence just so that he can crush me with his diabolical cluing on his next venture!

99. Thank Heavens for this after yesterday, chalk and cheese.
    Strange how the difficulty level varies so much.

100. Thanks Andrew, theme did not occur to me but appreciate its unobtrusiveness. Anyway Charlie Chan and Powerslave in one crossword is fine by me, nice work Brummie.

101. Learnt a few new words today, which I may well forget tomorrow. Great comments, thanks all. Re solving strategies (or should that be tactics?) it appears some setters may be one step ahead of us. During his recent zoom, John Halpern (Paul) explained how he adjusts the difficulty of a clue according to its postioning on the grid. For instance he will make clues running along the top or down the left worth the reward, in contrast to a clue which doesn’t offer or receive much in terms of useful crossers. John’s zoom’s are always fun & interesting. His next is Thursday 7:30pm UK time. John says all are welcome.
     Thanks Andrew & Brummie.

102. Thanks Andrew & Brummie.

     This one had a Monday feel to it though I didn’t look for or see a theme. Long time since I solved one this quickly.

Comments are closed.