This page is for the discussion of general crossword related matters and other topics of interest.
Comments posted before 14/11/2021 can be found here.
This post is now closed. New comments can be posted here.
225 comments on “General Discussion”
Comments are closed.
One for Blah, or anyone else who likes this kind of thing – a sneak preview from a puzzle I’m working on right now. I was determined to fit one of these in somewhere…
Deciphered this hack’s paper note to read ‘sea buckthorn’, perhaps (4)
Or, more succinctly:
Sea buckthorn in this cake not cooked? (4)
Not sure which I like best. Both are probably flawed in some way.
Spotted the flaw: I can’t count. Should be (5). Doh!
I thought it had to be (5) . the second is much better. Sea buckthorn is a bit of a nice bonus for this type of clue.
I have to confess I did peruse an online horticultural catalogue looking for suitable candidates – another I considered was butcher’s broom.
I think you’re right, more succinct is better.
I can’t get the first to work so I must be missing something, assuming both clues lead to the same answer.
The second is a better surface, I agree.
Maybe the question mark or ‘perhaps’ needs to be nearer the definition to be fairer:
Sea buckthorn in this cake? Not bad
Sea buckthorn? In this cake, not bad
I changed cooked to bad because I think it sounds more natural. Sea buckthorn would be small berries or a puree in a cake, so the idea of saying they’re not cooked seems odd. If it’s actually the cake that’s not cooked it’s an awkward way of phrasing it.
Just my point of view of course, not necessarily an improvement!
^ Second of my suggestions might be okay – not sure if my first quite works.
That’s great, thanks Twmbarlwm – I love your version! Second take works especially well as it puts the question mark in the right place.
Agree about the awkwardness of the phrasing in my version – I need a lot more practice before I get as good as Azed at this… for me, this is mostly a useful exercise in properly learning how this kind of clue works.
As for my first attempt, it’s [THIS]HACKSPAPERNOTE = SEABUCKTHORNPERHAPS
Thanks. I overlooked ‘perhaps’ as part of the fodder, thinking it was modifying the definition. Again a matter of taste, but the more letters you have to delete, the weaker the clue. It’s relatively easy to have a long word or short phrase that also includes the letters of something you can use as a related definition, which is why I think composite anagrams are best when they’re concise, ideally when the clue is also an &lit. Otherwise the solving can be a chore and not always worth the pay-off at the end.
I don’t think I’ve ever submitted a composite anagram to the Azed competition (or used one in a puzzle) because they’re so hard to do well. I certainly would if I could!
This is why I need to get in some practice – preparation for the next Azed prize puzzle! Making it &lit as well may be beyond my capabilities right now.
Completely agree on the phrase length – should be proportional to the length of the solution.
Good one widdersbel, definitely the second one. They are very hard to get right I’ve certainly tried and failed on a few attempts.
Here’s a slightly different take on the same subject
Sea buckthorn? Snack out chewing this. (4)
I prefer your second one also Twmbarlwm, bloody good effort from both of you!
Cheers, Blah. I like yours too – neat. Who knew sea buckthorn would provide such rich pickings!
So what’s the answer
Brush and herb, Tony,
Sorry I meant shrub and herb.
Thanks, Roz. Since there doesn’t seem to be a distinct definition, wouldn’t either of SHRUB or BRUSH do?
Sea buckthorn is the definition , when I first did the anagram I though BRUSH , many plants often called BRUSH or BROOM , but I looked it up and it is not BRUSH and it is a SHRUB and a HERB.
It’s a fair question. Always a danger with anagrams that there could be more than one solution, and clearly something to be wary of as a wannabe setter.
I was just sorting the papers for recycling and was interested to come across an article by Simon Jenkins on Europe’s great cathedrals (Guardian, 13 November). Was my interest because I wanted to read his thoughts on these architectural marvels? No, of course not. It was because of possible implications for a crossword-related issue.
We occasionally get clues where for example “Ely” is defined as “cathedral”, or “Rialto” as “bridge”. There are usually objections on the grounds that Ely is not a cathedral, it is a city, and the Rialto is not a bridge, it is an area of Venice, the correct names of the cathedral and bridge being “Ely Cathedral” and “The Rialto Bridge”. A recent debate about this was on the blog for Guardian 28,585 a few weeks ago (eg comments 40, 52, 65, 87, 92).
So what does the article say? Amongst other things: “Durham’s Norman nave is titanic”; “Milan can be an unnerving cathedral”; “Amiens is the supreme expression of the golden age of French cathedrals”; “Amiens’ interior is a symphony of height and light”; “Ely is often pictured floating across the Fens like a ghostly ship”; and “Down the centre of the vault run Exeter’s celebrated carved roof bosses”.
I suppose people could try arguing that Jenkins is using sloppy or incorrect language, but I think the article does at least provide evidence that “Ely” to mean “Ely Cathedral” is (in the right context) quite normal and accepted usage.
widdersbel@20 I think the point Tony was making, and with which I agree, is that it is not clear from the structure of the clues what the definition is.
Compare these two most recent examples from Azed:
Where to find dinghies at? It’s this lough I’d plied (5) for NEAGH
This fortune-teller calls art? Is crystal ball possibly (5) for SYBIL
In each, the ‘this’ signposts the definition. In yours, the ‘this’ is detached from the definition. I can see that your clues have their own logic, but I’m not sure it’s conventional.
Lord Jim @21 Excellent research, you can present that to muffin next time it comes up.
What I meant was that “sea buckthorn” is the anagram you get when you jumble SHRUB with “cake not”, so if it is simultaneously the definition, it is doing double duty, something I believe Azed disapproves of.
I don’t do hard crosswords like Azed’s and very seldom meet compound anagrams in the wild, though I sometimes see them in cluing competitions I follow (where they’re usually explained). I’m not even sure of the breakdown of the two examples you give, James@22 and I really can’t be bothered to sit down with (virtual) scrabble tiles and try and work out what you have to jumble with what to give what defined by what. However, I would guess, on the basis of examples I have seen, that they have the structure: ‘The solution, when concatenated with this other word or phrase produces an anagram of this second word or phrase, and the the definition of the solution is this third word or phrase’. Am I wrong? Widdersbel’s example, however, has the structure: ‘The solution can be exemplified by this word or phrase, which is also an anagram of the solution concatenated with this second word or phrase’.
James – yes, I see what you mean, thanks for the pointers. I’m going to have to work on this some more…
Tony C – your assessment looks more or less right to me (not that I’m any kind of expert, obviously).
Widdersbel@24, thanks. What I would say is that Roz, whom we know as a strong solver, was sufficiently sure of the answer to distinguish between the two anagram possibilities, so it seems it’s a solvable clue with only one answer. Whether Azed would accept it as well-formed, I am not really sufficiently familiar with his boundaries to say, but I’d say it’s possible your clue would not be in the running for an accolade from the start. I look forward to hearing more expert opinion.
Given the very valid comments above try this.
This herb comes from shrub beneath rock when gleaned. (12, two words)
widdersbel
In this one (Azed 2572), the this is on its own:
Osteal places may afford space to this (5) for SELLA
Because ‘this’ is non-specific, the whole clue provides the definition. I think that’s what Twmbarlwm was nudging you towards with ‘Sea buckthorn? In this cake, not bad’. Alternatively, something like ‘Sea buckthorn in this cake not misplaced?’
James – yes, it’s making the link between the definition and the fodder that’s tricky, and there are subtleties to how Azed does it that I struggle to grasp as a solver – trying to come up with a clue myself is mainly an exercise in trying to get to grips with the format to make the solving experience easier.
How about this for a revised attempt:
Could that plant yonder be houndsberry? (5)
(not entirely sure if houndsberry fits the definition – need someone like gladys to adjudicate on that – but I’m more interested in the mechanics of the clue at this point)
Blah – I hesitate to say that works, because I may well be wrong, but I like it!
Tony @25 – I sometimes wonder if Azed pushes his own boundaries when it suits him.
Lord Jim @21. Well done for spotting that. I skimmed through the article without even considering its possible relevance to crosswordland. Here‘s the online version of the article on the Guardian website.
“I suppose people could try arguing that Jenkins is using sloppy or incorrect language.” I really don’t think so!
Thanks Widdersbel, I was trying to get an &littish surface and as sea buckthorn grows as a shrub
in both the Alps and the Himaylas I thought shrub beneath rock might work. I’ve heard an herbalist talk about gleaning as in gathering, but as its also to learn by laboriously scraping together pieces of information I thought it should work as an angrind. My clue deals with James’ point about this and the definition being together. My only concern is that if its not &littish enough then herb is effectively doing double duty as definition and removal fodder and then falls foul of Tony’s concern.
For your revised attempt I think there may be the problem of brush and shrub. Using just the Chambers app, houndsberry gives only dogwood which then has both 1 the specific tree and 2 extended to many other shrubs and trees. So far so good, but under brush(12) it gives an area of shrubs and small trees, a thicket. Maybe I’m being over picky, I’d quite like Roz’ take on them both (and anyone else who’s interested)
widdersbel, that works for me in terms of structure. The whole clue points towards something of which houndsberry is an example. As to this/that I don’t know how important it is. I suppose you don’t want to say this yonder. Could plant you’re looking for yonder be houndsberry? You’ve also the option of omitting plant, depending on how helpful you want to be, as the clue makes it clear that it is a plant that is wanted.
Blah – I think strictly speaking, brush is plants (plural). It would definitely be ambiguous if I’d used ‘greenery’ instead.
Also, in a real world crossword situation, the potential ambiguity would be resolved by crossing letters, but I can imagine Azed frowning at that attempt at a justification.
Thanks James. I like ‘Could plant you’re looking for…’ – that feels very idiomatically Azedlike.
blah@26 very impressive for the anagram and GLEAN can mean gather or harvest, not totally sure it can be used to indicate an anagram but this seems very lax these days even for Azed.
widdersbel @ 28 I am fine with this, using THAT is actually a nice change.
Houndsberry is used quite a bit for various plants. Huckleberry a garden soft fruit, black nightshade a wild plant but also dogwood and this is definitely a shrub.
Widdersbel, I think a clue whose answer was ambiguous, even if the ambiguity would be resolved by check letters would not win commendation from Azed.
I like the new clue as improved by James.
Regarding the piece on cathedrals, it would be an ugly piece of writing that kept repeating the word when it is clear what is meant. It’s a form of ellipsis, isn’t it?
Also, re this and that, setters often use ‘that’ to point to a definition, disguised as a relative pronoun in the surface.
Agreed on the ambiguity thing, Tony – it would be ok in a regular puzzle, but I wouldn’t try to get away with it for a competition entry.
This shrub talk is all just sandbox stuff anyway – strictly non-competitive.
Widdersbel@33 I agree completely, I was being overly critical, and yes I think Azed would frown.
Roz@35 thanks, I can usually find a fitting anagram, as before (hands-on springs to mind) it’s the rest that let’s me down. I was a little doubtful about gleaned as an anagrind myself, but talked myself into it from two of the definitions in the Chambers app.
James, I was very tempted given your post on yesterday’s Indy blog to use tits instead of this 🙂
Just in case anyone didn’t know, another method of casting a composite anagram clue is to elide the solution and leave a blank instead. You don’t have to worry about demonstrative pronouns that way.
Second place in the Azed competition for PARTY-POOPER:
‘ ______ vanishes – is person happy to rave liberated? ‘ (Don Manley)
It’s not as neat a comp. clue as John Tozer’s winner
‘ Pater’s poor potty training results in this tot’s wet blanket ‘
but Azed obviously thinks it’s acceptable.
http://www.andlit.org.uk/azed/slip.php?comp_no=2049
Thanks Twmbarlwm,
Very interesting, potentially a useful trick when cluing something other than a noun, I wonder whether the Don used it because the blank suited vanishes?
Pater’s poor potty training is excellent!
Nice examples, thanks, T. Not sure about DM’s clue – if it’s supposed to be &lit, I’m not 100% convinced it defines the solution. And I have one small query – is ‘is’ doing double duty as both link word and part of the fodder?
JT’s clue is a lot more satisfying, and I love the misleading surface.
The blank method would work nicely for my revised clue, I think, viz: “Could _____ yonder be houndsberry?” – which is pleasingly concise, at least.
I’m surprised at that winning clue. It reads ‘An anagram of A results in B is C’, which would get red ink if it were English homework.
Scratch that, the s in pater’s cancels the s in tot’s.
Thanks Twmbarlwm, that’s interesting to know about. In fact, I don’t do Azed and the like and I think most of the compound anagrams I’ve come across were composed by Don Manley in the Guardian’s cluing comp. Don’t recall any in that format with the blank, though.
Is it a coincidence that Picaroon/Rodriguez/Buccaneer crosswords so often appear at the same time?
No idea, Petert, but thanks for alerting me – I didn’t realise Rodriguez was another alias of my favourite Guardian setter. I shall download yesterdays FT puzzle forthwith!
Petert@46, it seems highly unlikely that the editors of the respective organs would conspire to achieve that. To what end, anyway?
Tony Collman@48 Of course you must be right. The mind (or mine anyway) always looks for an explanation of coincidences.
I was talking about the Goal of Quiptic in this week’s Quiptic board. Someone suggested this is probably a more suitable board for that.
But this place seems to be grad students discussing serious stuff. Anyway, I go marching boldly where angels fear to tread. Why should this place be spared? Here you go:
I said the goal of Quiptic is to entice a new generation of fans and aficionados to the delights of cryptic puzzles. Quiptic should be as funny and as delightful as any full cryptic, but be accessible to novices. Even if the newbie does not crack the clue, when the answer is revealed, he/she should agree, yeah, i could’ve gotten it Not go “Seriously? You need to know the first and last names of some B-list TV celebrity from the 1960s to crack this? I am outta here”
A setter might think setting Quiptic is like teaching kindergarten and fancy themselves to be college professors. But there are college professors, and there was Richard Feynman. Nobel prize winning physicist who saw it as his job as a college prof to show youngsters physics can be fun. I say we need Feynman aspirants as setters for Quiptic.
[Pl forgive mistakes, English is not my first language]
Welcome Ravilyn@50 , this area is of course open to everyone and covers many issues. It just seems we have hit a patch of Azed discussion , particularly compound anagrams, but not often like this.
I never do the Quiptic as it is not in the newspaper ,which is the only place I solve , but I do agree with your sentiments. Newer solvers do need entry level puzzles of high quality but not high difficulty. This role used to be filled by the Everyman crossword from The Observer, I would imagine you can find older puzzles in this series. It had for a while just one experienced setter, Custos from the Guardian, who would set perfect puzzles for newer solvers, I learnt to do cryptics from his crosswords.
The current Everyman is still useful I think but the standard is more variable , both week to week and within each puzzle. Maybe newer solvers will give their views on how useful it is now.
Some setters can be quite tricky, when I was learning I would always try the harder setters, fail miserably but still learn a lot when checking through the solutions on the next day.
Ravilyn @50. “Quiptic should be as funny and as delightful as any full cryptic, but be accessible to novices.” A good point and well argued. I love the analogy with Richard Feynman.
Fun is what we should all be looking for in cryptics (and Quiptics too) but somethimes the comments under the blogs here are filled with curmudgeonly grumpiness and discontent. And people who make puns and jokes are told they should do it somewhere else. Helping each other to appreciate the wit and skill of the setters, and having fun while doing so. Sounds good to me.
[Couldn’t see any mistakes in your use of English! Oh, and welcome to fifteensquared. 🙂 ]
Ravylin@50, this is the ideal place to make your remarks and I don’t think you will find many here who disagree (or find fault with your English, btw). The fact is, it can be very hard to set a whole puzzle with only accessible cryptic clues and any setter who thinks that is below them should try setting one!
Also what you say about B-list celebrities from the sixties (to which I might add demiurges once feared and respected by some ancient people, etc.) doesn’t only apply to the Quiptic!
#53 @Tony Collman
Yes, it would be difficult to set a full puzzle all accessible to newbies without making it ridiculously easy for others who have progressed to Monday Cryptic level.
Some statistical measure, like every clue should be in the “I could have gotten it” category for lots of solvers and in every puzzle lots of clues should be in this category.
The solution progress is an S curve, like most things in life. Initially lots of difficulty in getting a few clues in, getting some traction. Then a critical mass of crossing letters are posted. At this point lots of remaining clues fall apart and reach 90% soultion. Then the last few will again take some time. (This S curve describes lots of things, like the adoption of electric vehicles in the market place, or the progress made in writing code, or building a bridge or home. Lots of ground work seemingly without progress, then sudden spurt, and a long home stretch).
If setters set clues with some metric, like 10 to 20% should be easy to give newbies nice traction at start. Then it is the judgement of the setter and how long he/she is willing to devote to finesse the clues.
#51 @ Roz
My entry to cryptics is quite unusual. Hailing from deep rural South India, going to Tamil medium schools, I could not even read English newspapers till 10th grade. In college, in the hostels, found urban English medium educated students doing these cryptic puzzles. Was very intrigued. Learnt that there is a widespread belief among English medium students in India, “Doing cryptic puzzles will improve your vocabulary and English”. That’s how they got started.
Ravilyn @54 – as yesterday’s Carpathian Quiptic so capably demonstrates, it is possible for a well-crafted crossword to be both easy (for experienced solvers) and enjoyable. I love clues like “Apply wash to top of granary loaf (5)” – and I can admire the craft that has gone into composing it even if it didn’t take me very long to crack it.
Ravylin@54, I think you misunderstand me. I’m not saying ” it would be difficult to set a full puzzle all accessible to newbies without making it ridiculously easy for others who have progressed to Monday Cryptic level“, just that it is difficult, full stop. Whether it is suitable for people who are not its target audience is irrelevant. People who don’t get enough satisfaction from solving the Quiptic should not bother doing them. There are plenty of puzzles out there for them anyway. In any case, “clue that’s difficult to solve”, as widdersbel points out, is not the same thing as “clue that’s enjoyable to solve”.
Anyway, it seems that doing cryptics has led to you writing impeccable English, so carry on!
I thought I would pick up on a good point made by Dutch on the blog for Guardian Cryptic no. 28,616 by Paul (30 November – comment @88).
The crossword had the thematic word COMPOSER at 2 down, which was referred to in a number of other clues simply as ‘2’, and I should mention that ‘2’ always did mean COMPOSER – Paul was not playing any tricks with that number! One example of such a clue is “2 shut up (4)”, to which the answer was CAGE (meaning a composer, also ‘shut up’).
As well as making a more general point on the quality of clues’ surfaces, Dutch made the specific point that the use of clue numbers to refer to other clues’ solutions does not excuse the setter from writing a clue that is sound and reads well as presented, that is, before the number 2 in these thematic clues is effectively replaced by the word COMPOSER. Another clue from the same puzzle is a more spectacular example of its kind: “20 down, 19 and 12 across in Dutch village once (6)” (HARLEM). It goes without saying that the surface reading of this clue is nonsense, but it is my belief that the clue to be read both for its surface and for its deconstruction and solution is really “Mahler, Brahms and Liszt in Dutch village once (6)”, which is blameless (because the setter clearly intended all three of those numbers to be clue references).
In seven years of doing these crosswords I have always assumed that if a substitution of the kind I have described is necessary for the clue to be solved as intended, then it is the clue as modified that needs to be sound and to read well, not the clue as presented.
That’s an interesting thought, Alan B. Like you, I’ve always taken it as a convention that references to other clues are to be read with the number substituted with the relevant word and aren’t required to make sense with the literal reading (but all the better if they do, I guess). This feels like the kind of thing Azed might have an opinion on. Has he ever pronounced on this?
Of course, it gets complicated when setters use tricks like a reference to ‘1 across’ to mean the letters IAC, for example.
I’m also reminded of when Araucaria announced his terminal illness via a crossword, and the preamble referred to the crossword having previously appeared in ‘the magazine 1 Across’ which led to several confused solvers wondering if there was a magazine called MUNICIPALISE.
Alan B, say 3 down (there being no 3 across) was PLEDGES. What would you think of the clue ‘3 stooges (5)’ for PAWNS? It makes sense with the number, but not with the substituted solution. I don’t think saying it must be one or the other is particularly helpful, or that there’s an obvious principle at stake. It’s nice if it is sensible one way or the other or both, though, and not neither.
James @60
If I were to encounter your clue “3 stooges (5)” I’m sure I would (1) solve it correctly and (2) tut-tut at the surface – purely because I would have read the clue as “Pledges stooges” (not “3 stooges”) in order to solve it!
Thanks for your response, and thanks also to widdersbel for the preceding comment.
James
I may not have done full justice to your response. Your “3 stooges” is in fact a very neat misdirection in that example, because it reads well and makes sense. I may find myself coming round to your view as expressed in your last sentence.
Alan B – There’s an interesting one in today’s Vlad, where the surface reading makes a kind of sense if you substitute the solution to the cross-referenced clue, but all may not be as it first appears…
widdersbel
I know which clue you mean!
I don’t get much time for the daily puzzles, but I managed to make time for today’s and was really glad that I did – albeit finding nothing original to say on the blog so late in the day.
Cross Posting from recent Monday Nutmeg: http://www.fifteensquared.net/2021/10/26/guardian-cryptic-28586-by-nutmeg/
Comments on that page likely to close soon. So…
Topic: Cryptic Crosswords in other languages.
@pdp11 Most of the restrictions of Hindi applies to most Indian languages. But …
There is a pioneer named Vanchinathan, (mathematician, programmer, professor) who has been setting cryptics in Tamil. Vowels and consonants are combined into a glyph, so much reduced anagram possibilities. And isolated vowels are not allowed in the middle of words, and words can not start in consonants. So highly restricted in these dimensions.
But Tamil has some grammar not found in English. Rules on word combinations and word splitting. So many one letter words exist. So if you interpret a letter in the middle of a word as its own word, it can lead to fantastic surfaces.
So it is possible to create fantastic surfaces and clues. When I solve Tamil cryptic I get the taste of what the serious top level English cryptic solvers are enjoying. My own brain will dredge up words not seen for 25 years, poetry read in high school, characters from Mahabharata not known to most people. It is fascinating to watch my own brain. And a little discouraging too, I will never be able to perform like this in English.
Ravilyn @65 – many thanks for describing Tamil cryptics. Apart from anagrams, are the other wordplay types used? Are there wordplay types that are (more) available in Tamil? Finally, can you translate two or three of the more interesting Tamil clues into English? I appreciate they won’t work in English but I’m curious 🙂
Lord Jim @21 – thanks for sharing the reference. I forgot about this forum until Ravilyn mentioned it on today’s Quiptic blog.
When I became curious about cryptic crosswords many years ago, I bought a book called How to do crosswords faster by May Abbott (published 1982 by The Daily Telegraph). It was the only book I could find at the time and is, despite the title, an introduction to cryptic crosswords for the complete beginner.
Since, until about three months ago, I only dabbled in cryptics, I still find the glossary in the book useful. Here is one entry:
Cathedral city: frequently Ely or York
There is no entry for “cathedral”. So, at one point (at least in The Daily Telegraph), there was a fuller clue for Ely (and York). Over time, I’m guessing, the association between Ely and its cathedral became sufficiently strong to allow “city” to be dropped, as can be the way with metonyms.
@pdp11
Most interesting extension in Indic languages (Sanskrit derivatives and Dravidian languages) is the concept of letter conjugations. Let us take the phrase “trauma induced by ..” If you read it fast, between trauma and induced, there is a y sound, at least in the Indics. It is legal to drop the space and add y+i glyph and write it as traumayinduced. These two are equivalent. Indic verse lines can be split “on meter” or “on words”. For singing and chanting it will be printed on meter with breaks happening based on meter. For reading and understanding it will be split on words. Text books often print the same verse in both forms. Very literate people can read out a “on meter” line breaking at words, or “on word” line breaking on meter!
This allows for a great source of word play, split a phrase one way you get one meaning, the other way you get a different meaning.
Wordplays are very common in Indic poetry, some are just amazing and incredible! I will cite one example.
Vedanta Deshika (14th century) gave the solution for the Knight’s Tour problem on a chess board in poetry. But how? First four lines, each with 8 letters assigned a letter for each square on the top half of the chess board. The second four lines, each 8 letters, describe the move of the knight starting from the top left square. Most amazing part of it is, the poem makes sense, it is a prayer to Lord Vishnu. (Rudrata did something similar even earlier 9th century) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight%27s_tour
Given the long history of word plays, it is surprising Indic languages have not developed a big body of cryptic cross word puzzles. Let me see if I can find examples that can at least be explained in English.
Ravilyn@68 – thanks for the enlightening post; the mind boggles at the Knight’s Tour solution being given in a poem!
When I was in Kerala (in 2017), I came across Malayalam script in a bookshop and being mesmerised by its beauty. It looked alien! I remember speaking to a (local) stranger in the shop about it. I hadn’t realised that Tamil and Malayalam are both Dravidian languages and have similar scripts.
@pdp11 Dont want to stray far from cryptic clues and cross words.
One wordplay possible in Latin, Sanskrit and Dravidian is based on vocative declensions. In Latin, Brutus, is addressed as Brute. Thus to drop a “us” and add an “e” to adjust the anagram fodder or to construct a charade, Latin cryptics could use this in their wordplay. Tamil can go one more step, it has both near-address and far-address. Dr Vanchinathan has used the near address form of vocative case to clip the last letter from a word on a few occasions. Let me think of other such examples.
Does anyone here enter the Prize Crossword? Many, many years ago I was so sure that scarcely anyone would have completed an Araucaria Christmas double with wild flowers as a theme that I entered. With the results came an announcement that there had been, if I remember correctly, 753 entries. I haven’t bothered since.
Pino @71 – I think the one and only time I’ve submitted an entry for the Guardian prize was back when I was a student in the early/mid 90s – it was an Araucaria alphabetical jigsaw and I was so pleased with myself for actually completing it that I just had to send it in. Didn’t win, of course.
The X entry in that puzzle was XANTHOMELANOUS – a word that has stuck with me, though I’ve never had cause to use it before or since.
Pino @ 71 , before Covid I would send off the Guardian , Everyman and Azed every week without fail .
I have won the Guardian prize twice, one a very nice Collins dictionary. Everyman twice, book tokens.
I used to win for Azed about once every 18 months, much lower entry.
I think it is just a matter of the odds and reliably posting off every week, I am sure my postage costs outweigh my prizes.
Perhaps , surprisingly, the Christmas double has a much higher entry ?? People get together, have more free time and actually bother to post it.
Pino@71 I won the FT weekend prize at my second attempt (received a very good book, history of the OED, of course this discourages re-entry). Have been entering Private Eye almost every fortnight for a few years now but never won and we have occasional debates on the forum here on the correct format for online entry (screenshot as attachment vs in body of email vs Across Lite format) and how they choose between paper and email entries when that was a factor (and I wonder how many correct entries they get, given no purchase is required). Failed to win G Genius a couple of times but doubt I will ever enter the G Prize for timing/tech reasons as it is snail mail or fax only, but maybe if I get up early feeling sharp one saturday…
There’s no prize available for this except maybe the chance to tell me I’ve wasted my time (and if you find that to be the case then also yours) but if anyone fancies having a go at it I’ve just published my first ever crossword here
Well done Blah, I will get someone at work to find this for me and print it out, tomorrow I hope.
Blah @75
Indeed well done!
I solved this today and would like to recount, briefly, my experience.
After getting a few toeholds in different parts of the grid, this flowed very nicely and was not too easy or difficult. I used no references, simply because that is my approach to all daily (Guardian) crossowrds, as opposed to the weekend thematic puzzles that are my main diet these days.
My only blank was 4d. I also could not understand, or at least not fully understand, 11a, 13a, 22a, 2d, 7d, 8d, 18d, although I’m pretty certain of all those answers.
There were many good clues, and I must highlight two absolute gems: 5d and 14a.
As you see, I have given nothing away in this comment. If an annotated solution is or becomes available I would like to see it. (I can easily ‘reveal’ 4d in the interactive grid if I wish to, but it would be nice to see some explanations at some point.)
As an occasional amateur setter (unpublished, not counting a few social occasions), I applaud your (original?) idea of taking an actual gridfill from long ago and writing your own clues.
While we’re doing shameless self-promotion, Alberich has very generously seen fit to publish one of mine as a guest puzzle on his website – also an opportunity to see the previously discussed compound anagram clue in the wild, if you’re so inclined:
http://www.alberichcrosswords.com/pages/widdersbel.html
(Thanks again to everyone who contributed to the discussion and helped me polish it into shape – I don’t think I’ve fully mastered compound anagrams yet, but I definitely feel like I have a stronger grasp on how the format works now – might at least help when it comes to solving Azed.)
The guest puzzles on Alberich’s site are generally well worth checking out – there’s a recent one by Gonzo that has a particularly wonderful clue that’s far too good not to share:
Tops up Her Grace’s rum (9)
Alberich also has lots of excellent advice on various aspects of setting that are essential reading for anyone who aspires to try it for themselves.
Blah – re Alan B @77, if you go into Options > Solution Settings, you can make the annotations available to solvers (if you wish!)
Alan B – you’ll kick yourself when you get Blah’s 4d! I thought it was a very nicely done clue.
Actually, Alan B – I just checked and the annotations are already available on Blah’s crossword – there’s a link at the end of the clues.
widdersbel @79
Thanks for the tip. I’ll go back to the page and follow the link. (No chance of kicking myself, though. I fail equally and at random on all types of clue! But I have just got Gonzo’s clue – thanks for sharing.)
Roz,
Thanks for the comments, I would welcome your feedback, I’ve tried to be Ximenean-ish but there are a few where I let my libertarian side show. I’m aware of several extraneous words that I’m afraid are there for the sake of the surface. Mea culpa
AlanB,
Thanks for the feedback, I’m glad you found it palatable, also thanks for not posting spoilers.
As Widdersbel says there are annotated solutions available if you scroll to the bottom of the clues.
There’s actually an egregious anachronism with 4D (I’ve been time travelling again, Roz will get the reference) this time by 40 odd years. I read somewhere that’s where the idea for the story came from and I couldn’t resist the surface.
If the annotated solutions aren’t clear, I’d be more than happy to answer any queries if you’d like to post on the site itself. There’s a very nifty feature where if you refer to a clue as e.g. 5A or 14A etc, you can toggle them to be solutions or the clue number. The default is non-spoiler.
I must while I’m here recommend Raider’s site. It’s extremely well put together. Perhaps you might consider putting one of yours up?
And lastly well done Widdersbel on getting a puzzle on Alberich’s site. You’re in very select company there.
widdersbel @78,79
Your ‘shameless self-promotion’ didn’t put me off at all! I put in some (enjoyable) overtime and solved your puzzle too.
Like Blah’s puzzle, this one made me think, but I got there, all bar one clue, after getting temporarily stuck in my last corner (23a, then 26a, then 24d). The one I failed to solve was 7d, which I would never have got. There was another I did not fully understand (18d), but I was in no doubt about the answer. There were many good clues, and the ones I liked best were 15a, 18a, 23a, 3d and 17d. Well done!
I like Alberich’s site, although I have not made many visits. I once solved a guest puzzle there that included a clue considered by Alberich to be one of the best he’d seen in a while. I got it only after giving myself the middle letter (as a crosser):
“One who does not tell the truth is a fool (7)”
Thanks to you and Blah for the puzzles.
Thanks Alan B – glad you enjoyed it. 18d relies on a less common variant of a term for ‘pub employee’, if that helps.
And yes, that fool clue is fabulous! Really clever misdirection.
Is anyone else having trouble accessing the 15^2 site? Sometimes – not every time – I click on my bookmark, or go to refresh, I get the following message:
Error 1016
Ray ID: 6bf366e0b9b23e63 •
Origin DNS error
What happened?
You’ve requested a page on a website (www.fifteensquared.net) that is on the Cloudflare network. Cloudflare is currently unable to resolve your requested domain (www.fifteensquared.net).
Usually, waiting and trying again later works, but it is pretty annoying. Any advice?
I get this all the time, Tassie Tim. Exactly the same error, and I have to refresh several times before the site loads. It seems like Cloudflare discriminates against non-UK IP addresses (I’m not in the UK, and I’m guessing from your moniker you’re in the same position). A VPN which offers a UK IP address gets round the problem – I had no issues when using my VPN to listen to Test Match Special this morning, other than the England team being humiliated!
Thanks, Alberich. Not in the UK – well spotted. Nice(!) to know it isn’t just me – or not, for others affected. Not sure I want to go down the VPN route. Gaufrid, is there anything you can do?
Tassie TIm @84 , sorry I can’t help at all but there is a section called SITE FEEDBACK and I know that Gaufrid often gives technical help to people on there.
Blah@81 , printed off and done, I must say what a splendid effort, hats off to you.
10 12 and 22 are the pick of the Across clues , great idea for 10.
2 5 and 18 for the Down, 2D is the best clue all week.
Minor quibbles, some just my personal taste not actually anything wrong.
6D 25D I like hidden words to stay hidden, not end on the end of a word in the clue.
4D , yes Mary Shelley was after , and influenced by Galvini, replace wannabe by prototype ? or a better word ending in E.
13A and 15D both ingenious constructions but I am not totally convinced by either, cannot say much without giving too much away .
I hope you see my praise far outweighs my minor grumbles.
Thanks Roz, that’s high praise from a solver of your calibre.
I thought you might like 2D and 18D when I came up with them, and 10A was originally a lot simpler and shorter but the recent inexactness of CAM inspired me to greater efforts.
I think your minor grumbles are completely justified, and I take them as fair and constructive criticism. I was aware of the shortcoming of 6D and 25D (Gaufrid had pointed this out), and it’s a mistake I’ll try not to repeat. Excellent advice for 4D I hadn’t thought of it but will consider and make an edit.
13A and 15D were originally my favoured clue type but I was unable to do them convincingly enough so recast them to a simpler form to improve the grammar. I completely agree they’re not quite right yet.
Again thanks for the feedback, it’s very much appreciated.
Roz@73 and others. Thank you, I rather suspected that the odds against winning would be long. Even so, I might enter if there is a prize that I might like to win. Of course I would have to solve it first!
What’s the prize these days? The one time I won, I got a Guardian style guide and editor Hugh Stephenson’s book on how to solve cryptic crosswords! I envy Eileen with her Collins.
Btw, the puzzle with the clue AlanB mentioned is here.
Tony I won the same as you once but I did also win a lovely Collins. Current prize is a rubbish puzzle book, I have not got into the habit of sending off again yet.
Talking of prizes, it’s looks like they’re back for Azed puzzles. Might just be a one-off for Christmas though.
Azed is submit a clue today , Christmas special, and they are still a prize once a month,
The monthly clue-writing competitions also suspended prizes (except for the cup that changes hands as usual).
Pretty sure today’s competition is the first one for ages that lists prizes alongside the puzzle. (There weren’t any prizes for last year’s equivalent Christmas competition.)
I see what you mean now, yes there is money as well. I do not usually read the bit about prizes because I never write clues, was just aware of it once a month. I would like to send off this one because I think the entry could be low.
Cash prizes! That’s worth entering for. I’ve already got an entry written for the Azed special, don’t think it’s a likely winner but it amused me so I’m going with it.
Still working through the Private Eye Christmas special, which also has a decent cash prize.
Haven’t looked at yesterday’s azed yet and won’t get a chance until later this week, what’s the deadline for entries?
Saturday Jan 1st, so an extra week as usual for Xmas.
I’m still making a pig’s ear of the puzzle, so any clue-writing will have to wait!
Closing date 1st January. £100 £65 £40 prizes.
I always have a break for Azed after an hour if I have not finished, had done most of it and thought second go would be very quick but that was nearly an hour as well.
Twmbarlwm, I made such a mess of it that I will need to print out a fresh copy before sending it off. Think I’ve got there in the end, though – just one letter I’m still slightly unsure about…
Roz, I finished the last handful off this morning after sleeping on it. Seemed to do the trick nicely.
Widdersbel@97
Private Eye Christmas Special? When did that come out? No edition due till Thursday, surely?
Tony C – Mine arrived in the post on Friday. Cover date is 18 Dec-6 Jan
Mine just come today, they have put it out early but it depends on your postal service.
widdersbel@101 taking a break is very under-rated, I used to do an hour a day on Azed, all week, when I was learning.
That’s my Christmas day / Boxing day put aside and written off for Azed. Fantastic. I have the perfect excuse to be completely unsociable plus I can even have a proper drink early with it surely that’s allowed at Christmas?
The website still has Cyclops 717, with a note that they’re no longer accepting entries. I expect the website will be updated before they knock off for their holidays, though. Wasn’t expecting to see it till Friday, anyway.
Blah @105 – it’s what the baby Jesus would have wanted.
Private Eye Christmas special – no spoilers, but I’ve got one entry left to fill in and I’m baffled. I’m sure I know the answer. The problem is that if I’m right, the word is defining itself in the clue… shurely shome mishtake?
Not started yet , saving for tomorrow , day of terror with JWST launch, of all the days to pick.
Happy Holidays to everyone!
Bit of a long shot this, but has anyone been solving Araucaria’s 1990 Jumbo Christmas Crossword?
It was mentioned in this Guardian article, back in February, on the 100th anniversary of the Great Man’s birth.
I saved it till now, thinking it’d be fun to do it at Christmas time as originally intended. And it was. A tour de force. Never seen anything like it! Provided several hours of fun (in installments over these last few days). Highly recommended.
I’ve now completed the puzzle (Hooray!)… BUT there are four clues I simply cannot fully parse. So I’m hoping someone here on FifteenSquared might also have tackled it be able to enlighten me…. The ones perplexing me are 33a plus the letters H, K, and O.
If you ARE that person, let’s see if we can find a way for you to help me that avoids “spoilers” in case others are still hoping to do the crossword. (Mind you, the closing date was January 1991… so maybe I’m being over fastidious with that suggestion???)
Anyway, if you have been, thanks for listening!
Andy.
PS: The bits I can’t figure out are:
33 … Last start covering
H. … M.N.D.
K. … Toy with key
O. … string for herb
In a spirit of goodwill to all at Xmas, I have bought the Spectator Xmas edition as well as my usual New Statesman. I hope this won’t count as asking for help with a current prize competition, but I am baffled by the instructions – perhaps someone could enlighten me. “Thirty three special clues include a definition and a hidden letter mixture of the light”. Does this mean there is an anagram but the letters involved are continuous but across the end of one word and start of another, or perhaps every other letter , or some collection of devices with different ones for different clues. Or perhaps anagrams are nothing to do with it. Any suggestions welcome.
In case in engenders any sympathy, while writing this post I have let my turkey curry burn.
AndyR – just had a look… intriguing. I’m going to print it off and have a go myself. Shame we’ve missed the deadline for submitting entries – that £30 cash prize would have been useful… 😉
For O, string might be ‘something in the air’, so to speak, and the herb is one that is most commonly used for its seed. ‘For’ is strictly redundant.
The others aren’t leaping out at me.
Thanks for flagging it up. Looks fun.
Hmmm…have consulted Don Manley’s book and I think I’ve got the drift.
widdersbel @113 – Hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
It took a bit of “chewing” in a few places but all fell into place eventually.
There are some obscurities (not surprising considering the structure Araucaria had imposed on himself!) but all fairly clued, I felt.
Thanks for the hints. Don’t quite understand at the moment, but it’s been a LONG day and my brain is very tired. Won’t get another chance to look at this till Tuesday, as I’m “on the road” most of the day tomorrow.
Lord Shortcake@112 , I have seen this type of puzzle before. You need to find an anagram of the answer, the letters for this will be CONTINUOUS in the rest of the clue. Unless there are more specific instructions these letters can be hidden anywhere, in one word or across two or even several.
AndyR, your post prompted me to take a look at the Araucaria. I agree with Widdersbel’s parsing for the O clue. I have parsed the others you mention thusly:
33 “Last start” is the first three letters of the previous answer, then word for covering, plus A plus last letter of the alphabet
H mail pronoun + Christian name of an actress called Horne (thanks to the fuzzy print I saw this as Home initially)
K The best I can do is a triple definition: someone who stops poachers (man with gun), a member of a cricket team (or gloves, with man implied), and there is a type of toy with a key that has the same name (though usually with a slightly different spelling). Hope this helps.
Correction: H MALE pronoun… Flipping autocorrect!
widdersbel @113 – Thanks for the extra hints on the O clue. Your hint “The string might be ‘something in the air’” was like a fresh cryptic clue, so good fun since it took a wee while for the significance to sink in. Must say, I thought the final component was a spice rather than a herb! TILT.
cruciverophile @117 – Thanks for your help. Much appreciated.
Just to clarify, the “PS” on my posting @111 gives the aspects I hadn’t grasped.
For H, I did understand the wordplay “man with Horne”, but it’s the “M.N.D.” that continue to elude me. Presumably it’s the definition, but the only association I have is a medical term, which seems to have no relevance to the solution!
Again, with K, I had spotted a double definition – i.e. the two men – after a GREAT deal of head scratching and repeated visits! Which made it all the more pleasurable when those two pennies dropped. But the “toy with key” just wouldn’t yield. Thanks for alerting me to the existence of those particular toys, although the difference in spelling is perplexing. (There’s no “sounds-like” indicator, is there?) In any case, I feel ready to let this one go…
And MANY thanks for pointing out the significance of “Last start” in 33. I don’t think I’d have spotted that in a month of Sundays. And I’ll be honest, even as a huge Araucaria aficionado, I am raising an eyebrow just a smidge at this moment! But actually it’s what I so loved about The Rev’s puzzles; every so often he just did something completely off the wall.
Maybe I’d have cracked this one if I’d spotted the “covering” but I was fixated on it being an envelope indicator. Doh! (In my defence, the fact that the “a last” component actually appears in the middle of the solution (as well as at the end) helped confuzzle me. So, thanks for unconfuzzling me!
So it’s all ‘done and dusted’ except fo definition in H.
I’m possibly stating the obvious, but I can only see that M.N.D. is Midsummer Night’s Dream, where Helena is one of the characters.
I suppose it’s meant to be a misdirection to those three clues; I can’t see anything beyond that, apart from Dream being similar to Drowse.
Glad to be of help, Andy. As Twmbarlwm rightly says, Helena is a character in Midsummer Night’s Dream. These days most editors would frown on “in MND” as a definition for “someone in MND” but Araucaria, being Araucaria, had the wit and charm to get away with what most setters wouldn’t!
Thanks, Twmbarlwn. That’s a relief! I had taken “in” as just a redundant linking word so the idea of a character IN a play (or film or whatever) simply didn’t occur to me.
And thanks again to cruciverbophile and widdersbel. Our job here is done! It’s good to feel completely complete.
And to all our other readers (winking face) can I recommend this crossword again. Lovely to have a “lost” Araucaria restored to us.
Roz @116 – many thanks for that. I have made a little progress now, but a long way off finishing. I am saving the New Statesman Xmas special for the Year holiday – it is a double alphabetic, a type I’m a bit more at home with.
LS @124 , one approach is to see the number of letters needed and then move along the clue looking at groups of these letters looking for likely anagram combinations. Of course it is much easier when you have some letters crossing: the classic situation, you need to get started in order to get started.
For those here who are struggling with the new Independent app, herewith some excerpts from correspondence with Arkadium, the developers, which may be of interest. In sequential order, beginning with me to them. I shall post this again on tomorrow morning’s Indy blog.
I am sure you are familiar with the fifteensquared website? If you go to the discussions of both yesterday’s and – particularly – today’s Independent, you will see the issues people are reporting there. Only a modest number, true (there are quite a lot of comments yesterday but only a few of the earlier ones refer to tech problems. Most of the comments today are tech-related). Useful feedback for you, I hope.
=====
Regarding your question about default settings, this function is always turned on, however, I’ll pass your suggestion to our developers’ team. As for the fifteensquared website, we are familiar with it and we’ve already made a task for our developers’ team. I hope all suggestions will be taken into account. Unfortunately, this is the end of the year and the game won’t be updated as fast as we wish. Do you have any other questions?
=====
The posts on fifteen squared may only be the smallest of straw polls but, if there’s smoke, there’s fire. I’m unaware of any other site that allows feedback on Independent puzzles. You may have your own test audience. But, if what I’m reading is anything to go by, the new format and technical configuration is giving a lot of regular solvers a lot of problems. To the extent that some are talking of giving up on the puzzle. Which surely cannot have been the intent of, presumably, a lot of work that went into the redesign.
So I guess, if I have any other questions left, it would be whether you have tested the new arrangements on a big enough sample of regular Independent solvers and will you take the feedback on board and tweak the programming?
Thanks for your speedy responses and positive attitude. I don’t want to come across as negative, nitpicking and Luddite but a site that worked for most people most of the time is now causing many of those people problems.
=====
As for your question, our test team always checks games before launching/updating. However, tests usually touch only the technical side. So we don’t have a special audience. After the game is launched, we gather the players’ feedback and make changes according to it. Crosswords are an important product for us so there definitely will be changes.
I’m sorry to hear that some people want to leave our game, but at the same time, I’m happy that we have such a patient and understanding audience who gives us detailed feedback about the game. I believe together we’ll improve this game.
Please inform me if I can do anything else for you 🙂
Thanks PM. I’d not seen the new app yet but just had a look… wtf? How am I supposed to solve it when all the clues have their ends cropped off? Ridiculous!
Thanks PostMark for sharing this. Hopefully we will see improvements soon – having to scroll through single clues is hopeless.
The user acceptance test strategy of just releasing the site and gathering feedback is interesting – a cunning way of gathering a targeted email list?
DuncT
“a cunning way of gathering a targeted email list?”
More likely a highly effective way of improving a product in accordance with customer expectations. Storing the email addresses of those who write in, for a significant period beyond what is necessary to deal with the enquiry and/or for other purposes would be illegal under GDPR unless specifically consented to. Suggesting in writing in a public forum that a person or corporation is breaking the law is, I believe, at least prima facie, a libel. You should not be so free with unevidenced allegations of impropriety.
Tony Collman@129 – I really wasn’t trying to suggest that there was any malicious intent. But I do not think that leaving everything to feedback is, on its own, a good test strategy. It’s a great way to identify potential improvents, but major flaws should be picked up before release through user testing. I’m sure there would be willing volunteers to be found on this site.
Tony & DuncT: my view is that it’s an odd way to go about releasing software of any kind. Particularly as there is no real forum for discussion other than the totally independent (excuse pun) site that is fifteensquared. And even that only garners a relatively modest amount of interaction with the solving public. So they are largely dependent on those who take the trouble to email to complain (or compliment?) them on the changes. Given human nature, a small minority.
Arkadia advised me that “crosswords are an important product for us.” I’d have thought testing the new site on crossword solvers would be a logical step. And I can’t imagine many of them declaring it as fit for purpose
I find the app unusable on my iphone. Even after I realised you could scroll to see the rest of the clue, it’s too painful an experience to be worth the effort. So I’ll not be bothering with the Indy crosswords until it’s fixed.
The Guardian app works really well, even on a small screen – text size is adjusted to fit the whole clue in. And the whole grid is visible too. Take note, Arkadia.
widdersdel @32 You and me too.
I’ve even given up on their other games.
Postmark@26, I’m not really sure whether you’re talking about a downloadable app for doing the Indy puzzles, or the software they use on their site.
I don’t often do Indy puzzles, but the last one I did was the recent Hoskins on Sunday and that seemed to work the same as usual.
I do the Guardian online and if that’s on my phone using the website, there are problems with long clues, where you have to rotate the phone to landscape view to see the whole clue. That’s not always obvious, because the incomplete clue is indicated by ellipsis at the end, which can also be the way to genuinely end a clue. Also, either the top or bottom row of the grid is not displayed in some circumstances.
Just to contribute to the interwoven thread concerning the prize puzzle, and the odds of wining. For, I estimate, thirty years and more I used to send a completed entry most weeks – postage was comparatively cheap once upon a time. Custos cropped up once a month, and was always very easy.
Never won a thing.
Happy New Year to all
The new Indy app is indeed a disaster, I’m currently only on a smallish android phone as was waiting to buy a new mac or PC in the sales, and now unable to catch up with this week’s Phi or Eccles as I’d planned for my one day off this week. Thanks a bunch Arkadia. *mentally composing a really snotty email while posting here*
nametab@135 I think perhaps you were a little unlucky, or did you send off every week without fail ? I have won the Guardian twice in about 25 years but never missed sending in. Odds roughjy about 1 in 3250 , sound about right for entries ??
Azed I won fairly often ( low entry ) but it did become less frequent with the advent of the internet.
I used to love Custos when I was learning to solve, he used to set the Everyman as well.
nametab @135, Roz @137: I began my attempts at solving British puzzles when I retired in May, 2018. One year later I completed my 1st FT prize unassisted and I excitedly mailed my entry to London from the U.S. As luck would have it, I was one of the three chosen winners.
Well done Tony @138 , beginner’s luck. Of course the chances of winning are roughly the same each week, we just need to be fortunate.
Is FT 16,981 (Julius’s random alphabetical) not blogged on this site? I can’t find it. At first I thought perhaps it was a prize puzzle but the solution was printed with FT 16,982 so I’m wondering why there’s no blog here.
Verbose @140
Yes the Julius will be blogged, probably on 13/1/22. The online version of FT16,982 gives the solution to FT 16,980. The FT has got its numbering mixed up recently. Hopefully it will return to normal in the coming days.
Thanks Gaufrid @141. My printer was on the blink and I am a few days behind on the crosswords, so I missed the discussion of this in the comments to Turbolegs’ blog post on Redshank’s FT 16,982 until just now.
Widdersbel (et al)@1ff
Good to see that all that discussion led you to a very satisfactory clue for your puzzle at
alberichcrosswords.com/pages/pdfs/widdersbel.pdf
Also pleased to say it meant I got the answer at a glance without being quite able to remember why it was! Haven’t finished the puzzle yet, but it’s an absolute delight so far. Thanks!
Thanks Tony, glad you’re enjoying it!
Was anyone else here getting a download warning when trying to access fifteensquared late Sunday night?
Might have been a server glitch, but it could have been something dodgier.
Yes, I got that too. I did wonder.
Twmbarlwm@145
Maybe one for Site Feedback?
Thanks, both. I maybe should have posted there as well but I wasn’t sure that it wasn’t just me. Dormouse has flagged it there now. Cheers!
Does anyone know why we haven’t seen a crossword by Puck/Wanderer/ Hob recently? He’s always been on my list of favourite setters.
Tony, if you look at the Guardian Round-up 2021 at the top of the homepage you’ll see there’s mention made of Puck being in poor health at the moment. All good wishes to him, one of my favourite setters too.
I remember him giving some very useful advice here about adapting Crossword Compiler for use on a Mac, and of course he’s very involved in the RNIB charity 3D Crossword Calendar.
Twmbarlwm, thanks so much for steering me to the Guardian Round-up. I certainly hope the best for Puck.
Hello all, I love the site and it’s really helping me make progress. I was wondering if it is OK to post a few clues from older crosswords here that I’ve managed to solve but can’t really parse? Or would that be spamming? Not being able to work out the mechanism for them is driving me crazy!
Dave@152 it is up to Gaufrid really, I do not think anyone will object , people like clues. It is just if there are any site issues ?
I think in crossword terms it is a very good idea.
Dave@152
As Roz@153 says it shouldn’t be an issue, especially if they’re from old crosswords, and if its a crossword that’s blogged here then the answer may already be on this site, the archives go back a fair way. Have you tried searching here already? If you want to double check with Gaufrid first (never a bad idea) then send an email to admin(at)fifteensquared(dot)net
Has anyone heard anything more from the Arkadium people? As Ekbol says on a recent post the Independent site is still not fit for purpose. It’s hard to see how their update has achieved anything except driving some users away for good.
I’m sure this has been asked a million times in the last few weeks, but is there any way to print the Indy cryptic?
A quick update on the Independent’s interface issues. I sent the Arkadium support team a fairly lengthy email a few weeks ago listing out some technical suggestions and they got back in touch today. Looks like the fixes are in the pipeline and should hopefully be pushed out in the next couple of weeks. Here’s the reply:
Hi Tom,
Thanks for additional information and gif!
Regarding your question, we’ve split your feedback into 6 tasks and 5 of them are in the process of testing now. Unfortunately, I can’t provide you with an exact date of release, but it is the beginning of the February.
Thank you for your help again. We appreciate your efforts and observations.
Arkadium Support
I recognise I may open myself up to some leg-pulling with this question, but can anyone recommend crossword compiling software for a Mac? I’ve searched the web and can’t find answers to that simple question. Some mention of Cruciverbalist but the website just takes me to AOL homepage. Most others appear to be US style/wordsearch or they’re Windows based and need me to install that onto my Mac – which is too much faf. Given Mac’s reputation and positioning with the ‘creative industries’, I’m quite surprised it’s so difficult to find anything out there.
Thanks for any suggestions.
PM @158 – I wish… I used to have CC back in the days when I had a Windows computer, but I’ve been Mac only for a long time, and this is a real cause of frustration.
There is Crossfire, which I have tried a free demo of but I didn’t like it – the interface is clunky, and it seems too geared up to American style crosswords. Maybe there are more options if you get the full paid-for download, but I wasn’t inspired enough by what I saw to want to find out.
http://beekeeperlabs.com/crossfire/
Running Windows as a VM is not a route I want to go down either. But if you could be bothered to go to the trouble of setting up a partition on your computer to install Linux, there’s QXW, which is supposed to be very good, and is also free:
https://www.quinapalus.com/qxw.html
If you create grids the old-fashioned way, using pen and paper (or as I do, using a blank template I created in Indesign), it’s actually quite simple to generate an Across format using a text editor. I’ve had some success doing this (it has enabled me to recreate some old crosswords I made years ago and upload them to mycrossword.co.uk). Instructions here:
https://www.litsoft.com/across/docs/AcrossTextFormat.pdf
(For some pointers on how to go about setting manually, I recommend this excellent piece by Anax: http://crypticcrosswords.net/crosswords/from-the-top/ ).
Mostly, though, I just use the stock grids on mycrossword.co.uk – they’re generally fine for my needs.
Also, there’s Crosshare, which I’ve not used but it looks like it has good potential. It’s online only (at the moment) but unlike mycrossword.co.uk it gives you full freedom to create your own grids – including UK style blocked grids, although most of what you’ll find on there is US style. I think it even lets you create barred grids. Any crossword published on Crosshare can be downloaded in Across format, and I think can also be embedded elsewhere, eg on your own website.
https://crosshare.org
Thanks Widders. I’ll explore. Frustrating to discover no-one has thought Mac users deserving either of their own decent quality software or at least a Mac friendly version of a Windows app.
I seem to have been the spider to hopkinb@115’s Miss Muffet in the blog of Pasquale’s Guardian 28,665 but have no idea why.
I realise you’ve said you don’t want to go down this route, but I use CC with Parallels (Windows 10) on my Mac and it really is very straightforward and seamless when it comes to moving between operating systems
me@162: Matter resolved
PostMark @159, this probably isn’t that helpful to you but I was in the same boat, hesitating to order Crossword Compiler because I thought of all the things that could go wrong if I tried to use it on a Mac, especially with software and hardware updates (although it can be done, of course – the setter Puck uses CC on a Mac using virtual software).
In the end I downloaded CC and bought a very basic, cheap on-sale Windows laptop, which I just use for CC and email, and that works for me. I print out a first draft of the crossword so I can refer to it if I need to do further word research on the Mac.
Another quick note of acknowledgment and thanks to Jayjay and Twmbarlwm.
As I lie on my couch I’m reflecting on what muffin@76 (in the linked blog) said about the Quick crossword. It seems to me that cryptics may win out over more “straightforward” crosswords because they exercise reasoning (whereas such as the Quick merely exercise memory (in saying this I feel I may be quoting someone else)) and may therefore act as a constraint to the onset of senile dementia. I was wondering if the general staff here would argue that muffin should motion his son-in-law towards cryptic crosswords celeriter? It is axiomatic that many contributors to the hallowed exchanges in this forum are “getting on/of a certain vintage/let’s face it: antique” but all seem to have retained their grip on reality – just lucky?
Does anyone have a relevant insight?
Those who saw my recent query about crossword software may have anticipated that the day would come when I, in all humility, post a link to a puzzle what I wrote. Here it is. It’s actually, my second on MyCrossword.co.uk, having learned lots from feedback on the first (Monday) and from the constructively critical test solve by Blah who has been down this route before me. And it leaves me realising just how far I have to go…
Bravo MrPostMark , on Monday I will try and get someone at work to print this out for me.
Roz – it will probably take you less time to complete than it does to print out the blank puzzle!
I am sure I will enjoy it but I will have to suffer talking to the IT staff to get it printed.
Roz, would it be unkind of to wonder if the IT staff might feel the same way? 😉
Blah I am sure I annoy them sufficiently, they are actually very kind and helpful, but they do insist on trying to explain things, it is worse than cricket.
MrPostMark@168 , managed to get it printed with minimal suffering, did need my Paddington stare. I think it is hats off and round of applause, I genuinely admire you and Blah and widdersbel for making such splendid efforts.
I always circle/good and cross/bad some clue numbers as I solve, the Guardian today got 33 crosses.
Circles for 15,21,27,28AC 2,4,16,17D
Cross for 13A – I would not use ROOM in the clue, SPACE would do, make people think of the homophone themselves, Sellers is very clever.
Cross for 19Ac – It is not technically wrong but I like hidden words to stay hidden, not end at the end.
20D I like but HEARING gives too much away, use stimulus or something like that.
3D I also like but MOST CARD GAMES too obvious, put BRIDGE , does what you need but has other meanings to mislead.
Roz – many thanks. Given what I often read – and write – in the daily blog, it was with some trepidation that I broke cover and invited feedback. And all is welcome. It’s only my second so I feel I’m learning with each and my third, in development, is – I think – an improvement on its predecessors. And counsel from others – including Blah – has been exceedingly helpful. I take all your criticism/constructive suggestions – you make improvements to 13a and 3d that I really like. For my part, I’m rather more forgiving about containment coinciding with beginning or end. 20d was my least favourite clue. Thanks for some circles; it’s encouraging that commenters on MyCrossword and you have actually circled a range of different clues between them which suggests I’m going in the right way. ATB
I’m afraid I probably won’t find time to attempt PM’s puzzle. Nevertheless, it does seem a shame that spoilers get printed here when it’s possible to comment under the puzzle itself. Roz, I know you like to solve on paper, but I don’t see any reason you can’t put comments where they belong. If you can’t bring yourself to do that, it would be better to confine yourself to comments which don’t spoil. You can still give an overall impression as well as saying which clues you liked and which not. At the very least you could introduce your remarks with a spoiler alert.
TC @176: worry not on my account. I don’t think there’s a huge amount of crossover between here and MyC and the puzzle has only been attempted by a modest number of folk, as far as I can tell. And more puzzles appear each week so anything current soon ages and probably won’t be attempted in the future. (I wonder if there’s some kind of limbo where old clues go and join, presumably, odd socks in quietly gathering dust?) As a rank beginner, I’m grateful for all feedback at this stage and appreciate Roz taking the time.
Tony I only solved on a piece of paper which someone printed for me. I have no idea where the puzzle is or where to put comments, it is certainly not on this site. It was published last week and is not a “prize” so I hardly think spoilers applies. Since you have not seen the puzzle you may not realize that I do not refer to any ANSWERS at all , just suggestions to improve the CLUES.
TC @176: Following Roz’s riposte, I have to say that’s you trussed, stuffed and ready for the oven! 😀 All fair points – and, indeed, you’d need an impressive memory to take, from her comments, enough to be of great value in the solve. I appreciate you were being thoughtful in advising against spoilers – and I’d be less impressed if someone commented on MyC with obvious spoilers – but, as we’ve said before, on GD anything goes!
And, seriously, if you are ever looking beyond your normal sources for a puzzle, there are some tremendous efforts that appear there. Mine are somewhat stunted seedlings at this point in time. As well as our own widdersbel and Blah, Conto is worthy of a namecheck, along with Gollum. I have certainly seen challenges that compare well with late in the week in the Guardian.
Mark, I don’t feel in the slightest bit stuffed by Roz’s riposte which seems somewhat disingenuous. If she doesn’t know where to find the puzzle, how did she direct the person who printed it? It’s at the link you gave @68. If Roz can understand the movements of the heavenly bodies and how a cyclotron works, it shouldn’t be too difficult to work out how to click a link.
I thought people who know you here might want to try your puzzle. That’s why I thought this wasn’t a good place to mention clue types and so on.
Anyway, if you’re not bothered, I’m certainly not.
Clicking on links is well beneath my dignity. It is why we have IT staff, it makes them feel useful.
Roz @174 – Oof! That’s rather harsh. There weren’t even 33 clues in Monday’s crossword. Did some get multiple crosses?
PM @175 – I did note the non-containment but that’s not enough of an offence to get a cross from me. Just a half-raised eyebrow.
I second the recommendation for Conto’s work on mycrossword – also note that he has now graduated to the pro ranks, making his debut in the Indy last week as Bluebird. There’s also a competition puzzle (closing date 8th March) from him at The Crossword Centre, which has a neatly implemented theme –
https://crosswordcentre.blogspot.com/2022/01/crossword-centre-prize-puzzle-february.html
(available to download as a PDF if you want to get the IT boffins on the case, Roz)
widders@182: the containment thing is interesting – is the objection (on the part of those who object) to the positioning of the word within the fodder or to the fact that such situations do not strictly deserve the term ‘containment’? I would have thought those who enjoy word play would happily find solutions wherever they might be placed: “Ra, in anger, produced downpour” ought to be able to deliver RAIN in my book so I’m genuinely intrigued as to why it’s not deemed acceptable.
It’s not that it’s unacceptable per se (hence no cross from me), it’s just that it’s less satisfying for the solver. In his book (if you don’t have a copy, get one), Don Manley talks about words being “overhidden” – where the containing phrase includes superfluous words that don’t include any part of the hidden word (the example he gives being “Idle in the United States of America (4)” for ERIC). In your case, the problem is perhaps that the solution is underhidden.
To go back to Monday’s Guardian cryptic, there was a solution that was a 5-letter word similarly underhidden in an 8-letter word. I imagine that was not Roz’s favourite clue! But the fact that the pros do it too shows that you’re in good company at least.
Don M also cites an example that I’m sure we can all agree is an absolutely first-rate hidden-word clue, by Brian Greer:
“Some job at hand? We’ll soon see (4,3,5)”
– to properly hide a longer phrase like that is impressive enough, but it has the added bonus of a misleading definition too.
Your “Ra in anger” example is both under and over hidden!
I did say the hidden word was not “wrong” just not my personal taste, more elegant if totally hidden.
I do not like the BATH AND WELLS clue since AND plus WELLS are poorly hidden.
widdersbel thanks for the link, I am sure the IT wizards will be able to print this although I am in their bad books now, they are trying to introduce something called MFA and I am the only person who is a problem.
Monday was 35, 15Ac and 18D , unusual number of short down clues, at least the week has improved.
PM@177, I suspect there is considerably more crossover than one might realise, I’m sure you’ve worked out the 225 username of at least two mycrossword (differently styled there) contributors that I’ve twigged so far, and there are probably more. I shall not air my suspicions as I feel that would be even more egregious than a potential spoiler to a clue.
Roz@81, lol, at least your scribes know they’re not going to be redundant any time soon! I know posh people at one time could never be seen pushing a button or pulling a lever, but lots of them even drive their own cars now (on the chauffeur’s day off).
Mark@183, what Widdersbel follows Mr Manley in describing as “overhidden” is really just a special case of the general need to avoid surplus material in wordplay because it distracts the solver without adding anything. I think it’s perhaps considered poor to have a “hidden” answer that starts or ends on a word boundary, though, because it makes them easier to discover. Anyway, that is the accepted convention, despite Pan’s breach on Monday. I thought the clue for CLASS there was far worse, btw.
I solved Widdersbel’s puzzle after finding a link here but never mentioned anywhere on 15² one word that would give away anything about it, even though I was bursting to say something about one of the clues when he mentioned it in relation to another puzzle (can’t remember what it was now, though, I’m afraid).
Blah @187: I will probably have to remain in blissful ignorance. Just as, whilst I drink plenty of red wines, I would very very rarely be able to identify in a blind tasting, so I am not sure I would spot setters or commenters by their style. And, of course, on MyC they tend to be both. I’m not surprised that there should be overlap; when I first used MyC (solely as an occasional commenter), I opted for a different pseudonym but, at the beginning of this year, concluded there was no point so renamed myself with the moniker I use on here. And then bravely decided to stick with it as a trainee setter.
PM@190 et al: Were one (or two?) to consider embarking on the trainee setter path is there software for compiling crosswords that would bear recommendation?
Alphalpha@191: I think I wasted a lot of time looking for software. With prompting from widdersbel, I went to MyCrossword.co.uk and the Create Crossword button gives you a selection of grids, you select one and start entering words into a grid. Simples! The software is pretty intuitive, there are word-fill tools that will give you what still fits in the spaces you have left and the clueing/annotating is straightforward. A guide to it all rests under the Help button. Honestly, it’s dead easy and no need for extra software. True, you don’t end up with your own stuff saved on your own laptop which may be something to explore in the future. Happy clueing! It’s nice that a sudden rash – in every sense – of us seemed to have been inspired to explore this route. My learning curve feels almost vertical and it’s brought a different perspective to solving too. I’m appreciating everything, from grids to crossers, from grammar to vocabulary, in a different light and I think I’m becoming a slightly better solver. So, all good! So far!!!
PM@192: Thanks. Don’t watch this space though – it’s a passing thought. Going to print out yours for the weekend. Oh – I don’t need to….
Alphalpha@193, give it a go the community at mycrossword is friendly and helpful and will give constructive feedback on what worked or didn’t, and is usually positive and supportive, at least I have found it so. I can’t speak for others, but I’m more than confident that both Postmark and Widdersbel would agree.
PM@: I enjoyed that v much. Wouldn’t be out of place beside my segg. I enjoyed the nice slow finish and the wit in 1a (by no means my FOI) inter alia.
One clue stood out for me though. 🙂
If you want a smile Alphalpha, after all this focus on crossword setting and solving, I looked at your comment about ‘beside my segg’ and thought “Huh?” And that must be one of the oldest chestnuts of all time. Glad there was one clue that stood out and I make an assumption about your probable gender as a result 😉
PM@: That did make me smile.
It seems I have gotten worse at cryptic crosswords the past month. I am completing puzzles a lot less frequently than in past months/years 🙁
Do other solvers ever exprience this? I start to wonder what is wrong with me!
michelle @198
Perhaps the distractions of the Lake District and Cambridge, and the change to your usual routine and location, have meant that you are less able to concentrate on cryptics. I know from personal experience that a change in circumstances, other priorities/intrusions, have meant that my solving abilities have been reduced.
There’s nothing wrong with you, I’m sure things will get back to normal when you return home.
michelle @198. I echo what Gaufrid has written. I’ve recently had a couple of short breaks (in London – I will be going for similarly short breaks in the Lakes in March) and found it difficult to get the requisite opportunities to concentrate.
Two of the most important ways that we crack the codes in cryptic clues are a) identifying a possible definition and trying to recall synonyms, and b) identifying the word play and trying to work out what it means, while c) (sorry, three ways!) remaining flexible enough to change your mind about which is which. Most of this goes out of the window when confronted with (in your case) the beauty of the Lake District, or (in mine) some very fine pubs in London. 🙂
The way that you set out your regular contributions suggests that you are a very organised person, so the change of scene will have been especially disruptive in your case, I would guess. I hope you find yourself back on form before long.
Very wise advice for you Michelle from the two posts above, in the week I can only do the Guardian on the train on my way home and I have to even be holding a pen or I can’t concentrate.
Also it is really more important that you have enjoyed the Lakes compared to finishing crosswords.
Thank you for your kind words and good advice. What a wonderful community this is.
Yes, it is probably the distractions of travelling although I seemed to do better when I was in London for 3 weeks and Beeston, Nottingham for 2 weeks. It might have something to do with the beauty of the Lake District but I have no similar excuse here in Cambridge. The Lake District is a hard act to follow. Cambridge is nice but it seems very touristy and sadly, most of the colleges are closed to the public. For me, the best thing about Cambridge was wandering through the courtyards of the various colleges in the past. I was not prepared to pay £10 to wander through King’s College yesterday.
Good news is that I finished the Guardian Prize. My post yesterday was maninly due to being stuck on it after solving a measly 8 clues, but I persevered and got it done last night.
And now to look at the Everyman.
Well done Michelle , the best quality for a solver is being stubborn. Taking a break is very under-rated and often highly productive. In the past I could spend all week on the Everyman , off and on.
Another trick if you are really stuck is to treat it as a quick crossword , just look for definitions at the start and end of each clue. Ideally we want to solve all clues cryptically but sometimes you just need to get started in order to get going.
I couldn’t agree more about taking a break. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding a puzzle that completely stumped me at first becoming much more tractable either that evening or the next day. Probably the subconscious mind working away in the background. I’m sure one our psychology trained or practising colleagues could supply the correct term for this. Keep at it Michelle, and if you find it a struggle know that you’re not alone.
It’s no doubt been asked before – perhaps even in this thread – but can somebody point me towards some decent online daily crosswords from outside the UK?
My very limited foreign language abilities preclude anything other than those in English, I’m afraid.
Penfold @205: I can’t name publications/sites but I do recall several contributions from some of our Indian colleagues which suggest there are English language crosswords available there. Plenty of others who can comment on Australia/NZ and North America (though you may not be looking for US style puzzles?)
Thanks, Roz @203 and Blah @204, Your comments and advice make perfect sense to me.
Hello Penfold @205. It’s been a long time since I’ve done any of their puzzles, but the Canadian paper The Globe and Mail has a daily cryptic which can be done online for free. You can find it here.
I don’t know if you’ll find it too easy, but maybe worth a try anyway.
I’m curious whether anyone here knows about the setter(s) of the Viz Craptic. Are they known to be recognised setters who do work elsewhere?
A group of us spent an hour or so last night at the end of a virtual pub meet completing one and it seemed the same sort of standard as a crossword from one of the broadsheets except that the clues are like those from Private Eye with the lewdness turned up to 11.
All those I’ve seen are by “Anus” but whether this is a house name or an individual setter, I do not know.
Peter @209: there’s occasionally debate when national publishers decide to relocate the crossword within the paper. I assume the Viz Craptic is firmly located on the backside of the comic? Or maybe at the arse end? Fnarrh, Fnarrh! Sorry I can’t help with the serious query – there would seem to be one or two obvious contenders from the G and I…
Thanks PostMark & WordPlodder, I’ll see what I can find in India and I’ll definitely have a bash at the Globe & Mail in Canada.
Cheers.
Further to my post at @205 I’ve found this online from Anax.
“When it started I supplied some clues to the main setter. The name was a nod to my pseudonym used elsewhere with ‘US’ as a nod to the collaboration. I haven’t supplied clues for a long time though.”
So “Anus” certainly has collaborated with one of the broadsheet setters.
Peter, I think you mean your post @209, re Viz’s Craptic Crossword? Have you got a link for the Anax quote?
Peter @209, Paul sheepishly owned up to this identity in one of his early Zoom sessions.
Penfold @211: crossword(dot)thehindu(dot)com appears to have regular crosswords.
Widdersbel – if and when you are next passing/parsing through – I don’t often do puzzles on paper and rarely get around to printing anything out. But I was conscious of never having tried your crossword from the Alberich site. Just did it today and wanted to note my congratulations – as I can’t find anywhere to do that on his site. I won’t go into detail – others commented much nearer the time – but it certainly compared well with our regular fare on the G and I sites. As Alberich said, a lovely range of clueing. I must, however, confess to failing to parse 17d. I don’t know if you feel comfortable, this long after publication, to give me a hint? If not, Blah has my email address and I know you two are in contact. Quite happy for him to pass it on.
PM – parsing through, indeed… very good. I’ve actually put all the solving notes in a post on my (very occasional) blog, which you can find here:
https://cruciverbosity.wordpress.com/2022/01/08/guest-puzzle-annotated-solutions/
You’ll kick yourself when you see how 17d works! And thank you for the kind words – glad you enjoyed it.
Thanks widders. Have commented on the site.
I did manage to get this one printed, at the expense of a lot of IT talk I must say, but it was worth the annoyance. Well done widdersbel – especially the compound anagram and the divided clue.
Tony Collman @213 Anax mentions his former involvement with Viz in a comment in this thread https://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Quizzes-and-Puzzles/Crosswords/Question1450863.html
Gobbo @214 Thanks.
Thanks, PM. And thanks Roz – particularly glad you liked the “divided” clue, that’s had a mixed reaction. And I can see why, to be fair – it looks at face value like nothing more than an unsubtle, not-very-cryptic definition. The wordplay element lurking under the surface is perhaps a bit too well hidden!
Peter@220, thanks.
Postmark@216, although Alberich doesn’t want the bother of monitoring comments on his site, he is usually happy to explain the parsing of a clue which is beyond the solver or even to pass on a message to the setter if you write to him. There is a contract form on his site which allows you to do that at http://alberichcrosswords.com/pages/contact.html
Peter @220, Anax’s comments there make me wonder how he defined Euphrates to go with the anagram!
widdersbel @221 it depends on solving style I suppose, I tend to go for word play rather then definitions.
On another issue, you were discussing clues with two valid solutions, this was discussed on here last June , including a Ximenes puzzle for April 1st, I suspect you may be able to find it on here somewhere.
Peter – thanks for the link, that’s very funny, bravo Anax! (Twmbarlwm – I dread to think what the definition might be!)
Roz – yes, I think you’re right. I’ll have a look at the ximenes, thanks for the tip.