Guardian Prize 28,673 by Boatman

85 comments on “Guardian Prize 28,673 by Boatman”

1. Wasn’t sure about trying this – Prize and special instructions ….

   But worked out that DAMSON was an anagram for nomads and wondered if this was another puzzle where themed clues didn’t have a definition (like the wonderful puzzle a while ago where the number of the clue was the definition or part of it).

   Then I got DUBSTEP and MONUMENT which meant DAMSON might be right.

   The lightbulb moment was PEACH my next one in. Then I moved on to 11d convinced it was plum but couldn’t see how lum was the listener. Then of course realised it was PEAR.

   Overall I got 12 of the special clues with a lot of help from word finder etc. Didn’t finish but had fun.

   Thanks Boatman and bridgesong

2. Brilliant stuff from Boatman as usual.

   Re crossword in lychee I agree it’s superfluous to the clue but what a surface the two linked clues make. Quite forgivable for that alone in my book.

   Thanks Boatman and Bridgesong (and Timon)

3. Nice puzzle, but can’t help thinking we’ve seen this theme before (but I also have books of crossword collections, and it might have been there. In any case, it was a famiiar theme for me.)

   So why did the Special Instructions not tell us the exact number of affected clues, as the SI usually do? Maybe it’s because of 8a MELON, which seems to have a little more going for it in terms of wordplay that the other theme clues have – but it isn’t quite a regular clue either, so maybe Boatman didn’t want to commit.

4. I didn’t think that I’d finish this but the penny finally dropped for the necessary dissection of the clue for 4d, and I took ages to get 7a.

5. Thanks Boatman. Getting the theme early helped but this was still a DNF for me with MANGO (did not know Dave Gorman), FIXTURE (the event?), and MEDLAR (?) never dropping. Overall, however, I liked this crossword with BRITAIN, OTHELLO, and the brilliant RYEGRASS being favourites. Thanks Bridgesong for the blog.

6. Thanks bridgesong. I got here in the end but was left with a feeling of rather too much esoteric terminology. My education may have been lacking but I’ve never heard of dubstep, numen, ana, ternate or comedians Dave Morgan or Gorman. An = unnamed girl is a bit of a stretch of the imagination too. There were clever clues as well of course, it took me too long to understand 1a, but I can’t say I really enjoyed this one.
   I’m ashamed to admit my LOI was LYCHEE.

7. Thanks bridgesong. ‘Several’ in the instructions turned out to be a dozen theme words all nicely hidden. Tick for 13A where Wimbledon etc teased for a good while as the likely source for ‘lame-brain’ removal, embarrassingly. Then 4 and 5D took longer than the rest put together: FIXTURE was very nice and MEDLAR was last in.

8. Having persevered to complete the grid, Mrs Plantagenet and I found nothing of merit in this puzzle. A simple and familiar theme made tiresomely difficult by very poor writing.

9. Doesn’t ‘crossword’ in 12A indicate to find the answer across the words, so justifying ‘crossword setting’?

10. First in was LYCHEE so that was the theme sorted. Didn’t know DUBSTEP – who would?
    And JACKFRUIT was nee to me but on the whole a very nice prize and not too tricky.

    Thanks to Boatman and Bridgesong

11. I don’t have to tell you W is next to E in qwerty…but I have

12. Thanks Boatman, this was clever and ingenious, and kept me fascinated for much of the week. Eventually managed to complete apart from MEDLAR of which I had never heard, and TAMARIND. Many thanks for all of the enjoyment.

13. Thank you bridgesong and Boatman

    Like Fiona Anne@1, DAMSON first in, thanks to the anagram. I did know it, probably from crosswords, so alerted to the possible theme.

    As Dr.Whatson said @ 3, I was wondering too why the number of themed clues wasn’t indicated. Maybe just to add to the challenge, which I didn’t mind. Checking off a list may have helped me get MEDLAR , which I didn’t know, and as I pronounce ‘meddler’ slightly differently I didn’t get the homophone. Good misdirect with the phrase putting an oar in.

    I liked the positioning of 7A, although I didn’t get it until later. Boatman’s little joke, and a key to the theme.

14. I thought the same as Willbar @9.

    Thanks to Boatman for the juicy treat.

15. I thought a puzzle where a significant number of the answers were names of fruit would have been easier than this! I got MELON almost straight away, but thought of it as an (almost) normally clued answer. It was only when I got PEACH that I had second thoughts about MELON and realised there wasn’t really a definition there – or if there was, it was a cryptic one. Still a challenge to complete, but I enjoyed the variety of clues, and I learned that Wimbledon uses RYEGRASS (had to check that after the event) and that there’s a fruit called MEDLAR (I guessed there must be one that sounded like MEDDLER, but had to check a dictionary to confirm that it ended -ar and not -er). MANGO I just took a punt on, assuming there must be a comic called Dave whose name would fit, but I couldn’t name him and couldn’t even think of an easy way to check. I liked OTHELLO for the rural surface, RYEGRASS for the complicated way the letters had to be gathered, and FIXTURE (my LOI) for the way they were hidden in plain sight. Thanks Boatman and bridgesong.

16. Mostly very good, and fun. The lack of specificity about the number of undefined answers could be because a couple (JACKFRUIT, MELON) were sort of half-defined. Also it made the crossword slightly more challenging – generally it was on the easy side for me. Ana was new for me, which together with the split word, made BANANA marginally less of a write-in after the crossers were in place. Even though I’m old, I’d heard of DUBSTEP (though could not have said what it meant!). I liked RYEGRASS among others, and would give a special mention to MANGO – the “cycling comic” Dave Gorman did do a 32-day, 1500 mile cycling tour of GB, with a gig every night.
    Thanks Boatman and bridgesong.

17. Thanks Boatman – as far as I was concerned this was a tasty bowl of fruit! Bradman’s Blue Book had to be employed to help me find 5d MEDLAR, which was an unfamiliar fruit to me (as it was for paddymelon@13), but I was pleased to get the rest. Fortunately I had heard of 16a DUBSTEP and retrieved it from somewhere in the dark recesses. Favourites were 12a LYCHEE, the clue for which which reminded me of “BOTTOM” in another recent puzzle, and (to echo molonglo@7), I really liked 4d FIXTURE for the little trick with “changed” in “exchanged”. Thanks Bridgestone for help with some I couldn’t parse fully such as 29a MANGO (sorry to FED that I forgot his real name) – and I didn’t know anything about 13a RYEGRASS and tennis. [I have to say the comment @8 stands out as being “out of step” with most other contributions on here. Some comments must annoy the setters sometimes when they offer their hard work in good faith.]

18. Sorry to be thick, but why is ANA “literary gossip”?

19. Similar experience to Tony Santucci @5, with the DNF failures. Theme was obvious early on but can’t say it made it any easier. Favourites were OTHELLO and RYEGRASS.

    Ta Boatman & bridgesong

20. … oh, I see. It just does. Never heard of that as a word: I was assuming it was some obscure person or abbreviation.

21. Thanks for the blog, another fine Saturday puzzle, I will add to the praise for RYEGRASS , a brilliant extraction anagram, I also like FIXTURE and HEXAGRAMS. Personally I liked the instructions, did not give too much away and I like undefined clues.
    Only one Boatman in the clues, we usually get two. One as a mariner and one as a setter.

22. [ AlanC if you pop back- How would you pronounce LOUGH ? random question I know but refers to the Nutmeg blog this week. ]

23. Many thanks B + b. Really enjoyed the fascinating mixture + variety clues and indicators. Knew MEDLAR but couldn’t quite parse FIXTURE and ONE WAY. Thanks also to Beaulieu@16 for the extra explanation of the ultra-fascinating MANGO clue. Such original stuff.

24. I was puzzled by ANA as well, but on research I realise it is a general term describing Keatsiana, Dickensiana, etc. Fortunately, BANANA was quite clear. (Wikipedia informs there is a Croatian poet called Ban, so what are his anas called? Boatman didn’t go there.)
    It was PEAR which first led me to the fruit theme, but in the end I DNF, as I had not heard of JACKFRUIT , and its crossing FIXTURE I missed also. Thanks for the blog, bridgesong, which clarified many points, eg, the identity of comic Dave.

25. I’m not surprised Plantagenet is the last one.

26. Failed to parse MONUMENT, and took ages to get MANGO, partly because I had UNCLAD instead of UNCAGE and partly because I couldn’t remember the right Comic Dave.

    I liked the clever FIXTURE and RYEGRASS, and BRITAIN made me laugh. Thanks Boatman and bridgesong (and yes, I did know DUBSTEP).

27. I loved this, all done and dusted last weekend, with a degree of looking up unfamiliar words to make sure of the parsing – ANA as literary gossip, because BANANA was one of my last in, and that NUMEN meant spirit to make MONUMENT.

    I too solved MELON early, but left it until later as it looked too simple, but was convinced by DAMSON. DUBSTEP surfaced from somewhere. Dave Gorman needed all the crossers to cycle him into MANGO(r), but he came to mind as a few years back there was a month or so when every show I was part of the recorded live audience had him in and I’ve enjoyed his appearances as Fed.

    RYEGRASS was clever.

28. Mixed reactions in the blog, so far today. Some who loved it, one who hated and a few in the middle. I just know that I spent a very happy time over a coffee last Saturday morning following Boatman’s pretty precise clueing and smiling throughout. OK, MELON and the elegantly clued DAMSON were an easy way in but the undefined clues were all succinct and smoothly done. I don’t mind if the theme has appeared before so long as the clueing gives me some fun. My favourites come from the non-themed section, though: I find I share my nominations with Roz – the ‘hidden’ anagram indicator in FIXTURE, the faultless assembly of HEXAGRAMS and then, to top it all, the fabulous misdirection in RYEGRASS.

    I do take the point made by Biggles A @6 regarding some esoteric elements. I hadn’t heard of dubstep and only vaguely of ternate but crossers and clueing helped me work them out (I suspect the first was all that would fit into the space). ANA was the element I couldn’t place and my sole gripe (or GRAPE): I, like gladys @20, assumed she was a gossiping character in, say, a Russian or Slavic masterpiece of which I was unaware. If it is as sjshart says @24, then it’s a bit meh, but not enough to detract from the overall pleasure.

    Thanks Boatman and bridgesong.

29. PostMark @28; sjshart 26, gladys earlier:

    ana
    /???n?/
    noun ARCHAIC
    1.
    anecdotes or literary gossip about a person.
    2.
    a collection of a person’s memorable sayings.

    Definitions from Oxford Languages

30. ANA (in BANANA) seems to have been new to some. I can’t now remember where I first came across it (doubtless in a crossword), but it seems to have stuck. Chambers gives three separate definitions for it, the first (Latin for “in equal quantities”- in recipes and prescriptions) being even more obscure than the usage in this puzzle. The other two definitions distinguish between its use as a suffix (e.g. as in Victoriana) and its stand-alone meaning of literary gossip (which presumably derives from the suffix).

31. Spooner’s catflap@29 & bridgesong @30: thanks both and fair enough. Apart from the suffix, I find it hard to imagine the word being used in its stand-alone sense but, if it’s in the dictionary …

32. RE: LYCHEE
    … thoroughly cheeky crossword setting (6)
    Hidden in “thoroughly cheeky”. I don’t know what “crossword” adds to the clue

    Without ‘crossword’ there is no hidden word indicator in the clue. The word ‘setting’ seems more superfluous.

33. Jinniecomelately @32: the way I read it, both words are necessary; I just hyphenated the first to arrive at ‘cross-word setting’. The setting of LYCHEE is cross word i.e. the end of one and beginning of the other.

34. [Roz @22: I would pronounce it with a hard gh, almost like ‘lock’ but not as hard. That’s probably as clear as the mud in Lough Neagh].

35. [Tim Phillips @25: now that made me smile].

36. I always enjoy a Boatman puzzle and this was no exception. I too prefer it when the number of “special” clues is not given. I wonder if we only get one Boatman in this puzzle as it could be argued that JACKFRUIT carries both senses Jack the mariner and the setter’s work bearing fruit in this puzzle.

37. Willbar @9 and Postmark @33 both make a good case for the inclusion of “crossword” in the clue to LYCHEE. Although I still think that “setting” on its own would have been sufficient to indicate the hidden word, I can see that “crossword” does add an extra element, as well as improving the surface. So I withdraw my objection!

38. Thanks B&B. Like gladys @28 I was UNCLAD to begin with. Had to double check a couple (ANA and NUMEN) but cheated on the final straight for FIXTURE which I am sure I would have got anyway if I had been a bit less impatient. So I don’t need to apologise!

39. [ Thanks AlanC, I was thinking of Lough Neagh so you have confirmed my memory of people saying it like LOCH, it is another of the ough endings. ]

40. ‘Tim Phillips’ @ #25: I take it, given the absence of any substance to your comment, that you do not share my opinion about the puzzle. That is fair enough, but perhaps you might have articulated it in a more pleasant manner, even where, possibly, what with humour often so difficult to detect in print alone, you were trying to be funny. If you were, my apologies, but in any case it would have been good to hear instead what your thoughts actually are on this Boatman presentation.

    The last plantagenet was referred to on these threads recently as ‘Richard II’. What can one do?

41. (Just for balance, I should say that I’m having a much better time with this week’s prize by Picaroon.)

42. Ingenious stuff from Boatman, and thanks to bridgesong for untangling. I found the whole thing most fruitful and really can’t understand the one very negative response above. As Petert@36 points out, 7A is actually a great summary of the whole puzzle. Lots of good clues and a comprehensive theme.

    MEDLAR, NUMEN and TERNATE needed clarification, but that’s why the gods created Google.

    I’m surprised I haven’t come across this clueing for ANA before as it’s such a common letter combination. I was wondering if my poor knowledge of characters in Russian fiction was holding me back, so thanks to Spooner’s Flat Cap @29 for tracking it down! I shall watch out for it in future.

    At the time I didn’t see the point in “crossword” in 12, but as others have pointed out, it enhances the parsing quite cleverly. Ellipses between clues often puzzle me, but 10 and 12 read well together.

    My only gripe was in 3D: by my reckoning, if you un-name Ann, you are left with A, not AN.

43. Personally I like to see diversity of opinion on here , we all react to puzzles differently . The setters are professionals and must know that each puzzle cannot please everybody.
    There is one setter on here where usually I am in complete disagreement with all the comments, not this week for once.

44. I did know the VictoriANA suffix form, but not ANA as a stand-alone word: so much so that I never thought of Googling it until today. You live and learn.

45. Forgot to mention my favourite clue FIXTURE, for referencing the fruit theme plus clever use of ‘exchanged’, an anagrind combined with two of the letters in the anagram itself. Lovely stuff!

46. I must that usually I like to see a bit more accuracy in the clues! I guess the compilers will get away with as much as they can if they are allowed, as I’m sure I would in the same position. I think others have analysed some of the ‘loosenesses’ so I won’t bore the quorum with duplicates.

    Bring on today’s prize. Which is here now, of course 🙂

47. An enjoyable puzzle. I too initially wondered about the “crossword” in 12a, but as explained by Willbar @9 and others, I think in fact it works really well.

    I was a bit disappointed at the lack of the traditional dual use of “Boatman” (one meaning I/me and one an actual boatman), but I think Petert @36 might be on to something, in that in 7a, which announces the theme, it can mean both. Very clever.

    Many thanks Boatman and bridgesong.

    [the last plantagenet: people might be forgiven for seeing a bit of a theme in your comments. A selection from the last two weeks:
    “nothing of merit in this puzzle” (today)
    “I was not too excited by this effort unfortunately” (10 Feb)
    “not written well, very clumsy in places” (7 Feb)
    “Bit of a tiresome slog for me I’m afraid” (6 Feb)
    “Quite poor, this one for me I’m afraid” (1 Feb)
    “not a particularly enjoyable solve” (30 Jan) ]

48. Lord Jim @47: now may be the winter of his discontent… 😉

49. 19ac BRITAIN was neat and 25ac GAMETE, brilliant.

    29ac MANGO. I believe Dave Gorman took up setting after attending one of Boatman’s workshops. Nice shout out!

    Haven’t got time now to|read all the comments, but up to 28 (apologies for repeating anything coming later).

    BigglesA@6
    “Unnamed girl” = remove the abbreviation for name, N, from the girl’s name Ann.

    tim the toffee@11, afaics, your observation adds nothing to this post and is a water of time and space. Am I wrong?

    Gladys@18&20, ANA was originally a suffix, I believe (Americana etc) which took on a life of its own.

    Roz@21, I wondered about that, too.

    Bridgesong,

    In 1ac, “this” only defines FRUIT (work may ‘bear fruit’ — i.e. produce results). It’s a themer, so no overall def.

    12ac The setting of the answer crosses the two words it’s hidden in (as Wilbar@9 says).

    13ac It’s the “characters” (i.e. an anagram) of LAMEBRAIN that’s removed. I realized exactly what the wordplay meant straight away but took some time to get to the answer, being something I’d never heard of, never mind not knowing it was the main ingredient of Wimbledon’s lawns.

50. I knew that a medlar was some kind of fruit, but nothing more, so I looked it up.Turns out it’s a member of the rose family, something like a rosehip. It reminded me of one of Ruth Rendell’s Inspector Wexford mysteries, in which he has to go to the US and discovers rose hip jam. I hadn’t known that was American particularly — I hadn’t know that about overhead traffic lights either, which puzzle Wexford. Haven’t seen rose hip jam in years. I also learned that medlars, like some other fruit including persimmons, have to be bletter, which is a sort of over-ripening after harvest (I think) that makes them edible instead of too sour. It’s certainly true that under-ripe persimmons are more horrible than you could imagine and ripe ones are delicious. (I disagree with Huck Finn, who said “persimmons ain’t ever good.”)

    Didn’t know Dave Gorman, so had to use “check” and guesses.

    Lots of fun, thanks to both Boatman for the challenge and bridgesong for the help.

51. @ #s 25, 47 & 48: is this another 22/08/1485? What Lancastrian mob are you all from!

    Thank you for quoting only my complaints. You will be attempting to encourage people to see a theme in my comments therby, will you not? I’m not sure I’m always so terribly critical, and seldom actually rude, hint hint, and as I said above, I am enjoying today’s Prize, which is written very well. If you are looking for a raison d’etre in SOME of my remarks, it is that Guardian puzzles are very inconsistent in my view, and I wish, naturally, that they were not.

    So, sticks and stones etc, though a horse at this point I could do with, possibly 😀

52. Thanks to Boatman and bridgesong. This was a treat, sound clueing and an enjoyable theme. Not saying how many were themed was probably because some of the fruits were parts of the solutions.
    Regarding RYEGRASS, bridgesong, who regularly blogs Azed would, like me, not have suspected the “compound anagram” on a weekday.

53. I do remember now that I thought FIXTURE’s “Fruit exchanged” was a bit Guardian-y and never acceptable on Sundays.
    My January clue for BALDERDASH using a hyphen for the DASH was passed over as non-kosher, serves me right.

54. tlp@51: congratulations on a spirited fightback. You clearly want for nothing. I just couldn’t resist what seemed like a highly appropriate quotation. And will look forward to your upbeat post next Saturday, if not before.

55. I thought this was great fun, finding one after another of the fruits. I thought there were 13 but I may have miscounted.

    Lots to like, but special mention for the rather unlikely UNCAGE.

    Thanks Boatman and bridgesong.

56. It will be the turn for the Red Rose to be grumpy next week.

57. the last plantagenet I feel bad now about starting this trend for joking about your nom de plume albeit on yesterday’s Independent and too late for anyone to notice.

58. Yes, Planty, me ol’ China, it was largely meant to be humorous in a kind of Goon Show or Hancock’s Half Hour way. But I struggle with posts like those on a number of fronts. First is that they are literally surrounded by constructive and polite comments discussing relative merits of the crossword, good and bad; putting such blanket, unexpanded and frankly rude comments in a minority of one out of maybe 100. Second, it’s a flamin’ pastime; a free-to-enter diversion (for all, not just 225 contributors) to give entertainment (fun?) in which you don’t have to take part so if you don’t like it, just don’t do it and don’t bother to contribute such abject negativity here. Third, whatever the purists may say, there are no rules other than that the name of the game is to complete the grid from the clues. It is clear that few if anyone here found it ‘tiresomely difficult’ or that it suffered from ‘very poor writing’. It is a bit of fun for discussion and not a literary exercise subject to adjudication. Just saying …

59. Gave up without finishing the NE corner. Did not solve 8 and 10ac or 5 and 6 down.

    New for me: Dave Gorman (British comedian); DUBSTEP; ANA = literary gossip.

    I did not parse 22ac, 30ac, 23d.

    Thanks, both.

60. I too found the NE corner reluctant to yield, but I did finally complete it after returning to it much later. I liked the theme, which added to the enjoyment of the puzzle.

    DUBSTEP and MEDLAR were both new to me.

    Thanks to Boatman and bridgesong.

61. Thanks Boatman and bridgesong.

    +1 for a fruity theme. And joining in applause for RYEGRASS FIXTURE BRITAIN

    Bravo.

62. Thanks Petert @ #57, no need to feel bad, as boys will be boys, especially once they’ve got the bit between their teeth, and I enjoyed your nice spot at the end of the Phi blog. There’s nothing in my pseudonym by the way, it just occurred to me when signing up. I suppose R3 was the last one, he’s often referred to as such, but what was revealed to me most interestingly as I investigated his history is that Henry Tudor came over from France to join the battle at Bosworth Field. Not my field, obviously, but I hadn’t previously realised that.

    Tim Phillips @ #58, thanks for revealing that you ‘struggle with posts like (mine above)’, but if you could try to be less challengingly provocative in your responses it would be nicer for all. It seems the essence of your argument is that only positive vibes are acceptable here, but that’s surely very idealistic, and very limiting. Yes, all right, I didn’t much care for this particular Prize puzzle, but as I’ve said, and as people can easily see when they look at all my contributions, rather than the few that suit the selective moment, I do love a well-written puzzle, and I always say so too.

    I hope we can get along better in future.

63. Good fun, but the theme was rather trumpeted. The MELON clue was ridiculously obvious, as bridgesong says, and DAMSON not much better. I was stuck on the northwest for a while, until JACKFRUIT gave way. Incidentally, I think this is undefined like the rest, with the “work may bear this” part simply being wordplay to give FRUIT.
    Would quite like to see a full-strength Boatman sometime soon.
    Thanks, Bees

64. Thank you Bridgesong for the AN of ORANGE in particular and others above for enlightenment on various specifics. I was glad this was a Prize as, while the theme revealed itself mercifully quickly, it took repeated visits to winkle out some obscurities and I doubt I would have got there on a weekday. While not a huge fan of the genre I do like it when terms like DUBSTEP pop up in the crossword, if only to prove that it was written this century – thanks Boatman.

65. Late to the show but I enjoyed this having finished last night. Challenging for me but doable.

    tlp@62 – different views make life interesting especially if some thought has gone into them. Your initial comment basically said “this was rubbish”. Fine. There will always be people who like or dislike some puzzles. What is more interesting (for me) is why people have the views they do rather than the simple assertion that this was good / bad. You are, by the sounds of it, not a novice solver. Perhaps you could pick out three or four clues and say why they didn’t work for you, especially since your view contrasts so starkly with most people’s for this puzzle. It would be even better, but perhaps not easy, if you hinted at a possible improvement. That way we would understand you better and benefit from your experience.

    BTW, I, too, am enjoying today’s Picaroon and, perhaps for the first time, am on his wavelength.

66. Thanks pdp11, but in my view one can’t really require people to lay out their quibbles and queries in a certain way, according to some format, unless you have the authority to do so. Big Dave’s forum is such a place, but even there one can express a dissatisfaction. So if I may, I reserve the right to speak freely about puzzles as I find them. I would certainly never attack another poster’s views as mine have been attacked here today for example!

    And really the criticism of my remark, which was actually quite negative because I didn’t really like some of the ‘techniques’ deployed in the puzzle, has been selective, thus unfairly representing my stance today as some kind of TLP norm. See my comment on yesterday’s Vlad at #40 for instance, or my comment on the Morph puzzle. You will find that I am honest, not afraid to be forthright, and often complimentary about puzzles.

67. A most enjoyable puzzle, with a theme which neither needed nor encouraged poring through a list. I was happy not to have the number of thematic solutions. Though I didn’t find the puzzle easy, at no time did I get stuck for a long time, which is so discouraging when it happens.

68. I love skanking to a bit of dubstep. It’s good to see some more up to date music references in a crossword. I know it’s a couple of decades old, but that’s young compared to the centuries old bangers that we’re usually expected to recall.

    Lots of of good clues here, finally finished it; the scratches I inflicted on my head are still healing.

69. A week early to comment on Picaroon’s Prize – and a day late to comment on Boatman’s fruity concoction – but since the former has been mentioned in favourable comparison to the latter, I found it practically a write-in and far less entertaining than the Boatman, or indeed most other Picaroon puzzles (which sometimes reach Paul or Brendan levels of ingenuity). I don’t know what light that throws on the occasionally tetchy debate in the comments above.

    Still no support for my opinion that un-naming ‘Ann’ leaves A rather than AN…

70. tlp@66 – I can understand how some ‘bad’ clues can tarnish a whole puzzle. It sounds, from what you said, that other clues were fine. In a world where every clue has equal weight, your original comment might have been at least neutral if not complimentary 🙂

    There have been, here, objections to split answers, homophones, metonyms, and probably other techniques. So you’re in good company. These have, for now, mostly disappeared (they were getting repetitive and not adding much to the conversation). Perhaps in the future you might mention which techniques you find especially objectionable. Then, readers will at least understand where you’re coming from.

71. 1961B@69 – that may explain why, unusually, I found Picaroon doable yesterday!

    There seems to be no agreement on whether “unnaming” means remove one N or all N’s. Would the latter be denoted by “unnamings”? I have seen removals in the past refer to “all” (or equivalent) when we’re asked to remove more than one letter, which may be regarded as the default in the absence of any other indicator?

72. TLP If you will lead with your chin…….
    This was one of Boatie’s good ones

73. why is sketches turns?

74. Morning, Bridgesong & all – sorry I couldn’t drop in and join you yesterday, and glad you (almost) all enjoyed it.

    Tony C @49 – Yes, Dave Gorman did indeed come to one of my masterclasses when he was starting out as a setter, and much fun it was to have him in the group. In fact, he’d been thinking about setting crosswords for a long time before that, and applied his phenomenal drive to learning the craft before he released his first attempt on Twitter.

    That MELON clue – yes, it was ridiculously easy, and that’s part of the reason why I didn’t give away the number of themed clues at the start, but you’ll be amused to know that in testing it was one of my usual checker’s last ones in – an example of hiding in plain sight, from his point of view.

75. Antonio @ 73: think of acts appearing at a music-hall.

    Boatman – always a pleasure to have the setter drop in!

76. Strange isn’t it? Generally I find Picaroon one of the less daunting names to find in the “set by” space: rarely high on the fiendishness scale but almost always delightfully ingenious. I just didn’t get that yesterday, unless I have completely missed some brilliant theme, pangram or Nina!

    Regarding the other thing, it seems to me once something becomes unnamed, then it has no name, and if N stands for name, then all the Ns are removed.

77. I thoroughly enjoyed the challenge from Boatman @ 74 for dropping in.
    Unable to agree with the last plantagenet @ 8 ShropshireLad and myself found many elegant and witty clues. A real Sunday morning treat with too many ticks to mention but particularly liked HEXAGRAMS, SCETCHES and RYEGRASS.
    Thanks to bridgesong for blog and help with parsing a couple I was unsure of.

78. I think the way to get round the “unnamed” quandary might have been to write the clue as “Horrible ogre grabs girl without a name”. Of course, this might suggest that an A, as well as an N needed removing. More accurate, cryptically, but with perhaps an uglier surface, would have been “Horrible ogre grabs girl without one name”.

    @Tlp, I agree with pdp11 that if there are things you don’t like about a puzzle, you should say what they are and perhaps why you don’t like them. What interest is it to readers to know that some anonymous person simply “didn’t like” it? Similarly, there would be no point someone just saying they did like it without specifying what it was they liked about it.

    Also, it’s bad form to mention this week’s puzzle here, even if you don’t give any spoilers as it opens the door to others who might. Best just to keep that door shut.

79. Apologies Tony @78 – though I didn’t start the discussion of this week’s puzzle, I certainly continued it (albeit spoiler-free).

80. Danny@79, you don’t owe me any apology. I was just reminding of site policy … or rather, I thought I was, but checking I see it’s actually:

    4. Prize puzzles should not be discussed, or commented on in detail, until the appropriate post has been published after the closing date for entries. (My emphasis).

    I still prefer not to mention it at all, myself, unless perhaps to draw attention to some defect in the production which could lead unwitting solvers astray.

81. 1961Blanchflower, sorry this is very late (internet problems last night) but I agree with you that ANN unnamed is A – if I were a wild west gunslinger famed for packing a pistol on each hip, and you were a sheriff trying to run me in, and you heard that I was in a bar and unarmed, you would be very disappointed to find that I had only left one gun behind and still had a six shooter in my good hand! I think Tony Collman’s “without a name” alternative is good and the “a” is just misdirection rathar than incorrect so is fine. Thanks again Boatman and interesting to read your thoughts – I also had MELON as one of my last in for the same reason as your tester.

82. Tim Phillips@25 and 58: Greatly enjoyed your contributions.

83. Why “loaves” for regularly seen after meat and sugar? Am I missing something really silly?

84. Ian @83
    As in Meat Loaf, Sugar Loaf.

85. Meat Loaf RIP

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