Guardian 28,704 / Carpathian

76 comments on “Guardian 28,704 / Carpathian”

1. Nicely done, for my money a bit tougher than standard “Monday morning fare” but well up to Carpathian’s usual standard. Especial favourites PARANOID, NO SHOW, SOB STORY, COMPLEXION, ELOQUENT, DOGGEREL.
   Thanks both

2. I agree Eileen that we should see more of this setter. Pleasant start to Monday morning with some amusing surfaces. I liked PARANOID, CARELESS, SOB STORY, MENACE, APOCRYPHAL and GENIUS (if only..). NW held out longest and I was looking for a J to complete the pangram but no cigar this time.

   Ta Carpathian & Eileen

3. Thanks Carpathian and Eileen
   Mostly very good. Favourites PARANOID and CARELESS.
   I finished in the SE, having spent some time trying to justify PUNKAH around the N in22d!
   I raised an eyebrow at Z for sero. Is there a source to back it up?
   I didn’t parse DEMISE, and don’t think that “London area” for SE is fair. SE could be the south-east of anywhere, not just London; also the London areas all have numbers following. I have lived in SE5.

4. I always enjoy Carpathian’s puzzles. This one felt like a definite step-up in difficulty from the Quiptics. PARANOID and SOB STORY and WINNOW were among my favourites. I had CART for RAFT for a while.

5. Started out with some very easy ones and I thought it would be a breeze, but the second run through turned the screw. A very pleasant solve, with some holding me up that should not have: ZEST – ESTO connected with PESTO? BOVINE – trying to fit OB (climber) rather than the straightforward BO.

   Thanks Eileen and Carpathian

6. Just one J short of a pangram. I liked CARELESS and WINNOW.

7. Chambers 2014 has z for zero muffin@3

8. muffin @ 3 I checked google for Z abbreviations and found this site. I have no idea of its authority, but it suggests writing, multimedia, texting and real estate

9. [Thanks Tim C @7]

10. […and Dave Ellison @8]

11. Nice to come across a Monday puzzle with a greater degree of difficulty, I thought. The twin B’s, BUMF and BLUR(b) made me smile. Very much liked – when I finally parsed it – DOGGEREL, with the cutely hidden definition “lines”. Last one in was RAFT. Not sure that everyone will agree with PARANOID and BOVINE as definitions of highly suspicious and thick. PARANOID having such complicated and sinister other meanings. Enjoyable start to the week, nonetheless…

12. Like muffin, I questioned Z for zero but it’s there in Chambers.

    Not convinced by grave for SEDATE but perhaps should check the big book for that one, too.

    Liked DOGGEREL among others in this enjoyable crossword.

    Many thanks, both.

13. Got to admit I struggled to get on Carpathian’s wavelength. Maybe because I’ve not seen many of their cryptic puzzles.

    I questioned Z too. Also whilst you can regard paragliders as airmen, in my experience PARA is exclusively reserved for paratroopers. They may spend time as passengers in planes but they are members of the army – at least in the British armed forces.

14. Like Petert I had CART at 2dn; unlike him I kept it there. Actually I think it works just as well as RAFT, not as a dd but a cd. What a cart can transport is a cartload, which is a large number.

    muffin @3 – I thought SE = South-East England , which is. loosely speaking, the London area.

    Other than that, happy to agree with everyone else that this was very enjoyable; thanks Carpathian and Eileen.

15. I had to check the calendar this morning because the NW quadrant seemed impenetrable at first glance. So I followed my usual strategy in such cases and started at the bottom of the puzzle and worked up. The NW was the last part to yield and LOI was RAFT, as I couldn’t get CART out of my head 🙁 .

    Some lovely clues here – I liked PARANOID, NO-SHOW, CARELESS, ESCRITOIRE, APOCRYPHAL (yet another Duke of York reference?).

    Z = zero seems an unnecessary abbreviation, pace the dictionaries, and one I have never encountered before.

    Thanks to S&B

16. Lots to like. I was ok with bovine for thick Ronald @11 as both are substitutes for ‘stupid’. But like William @12 I am deeply suspicious (although not paranoid) about sedate/ grave.

17. 24 a- I am intrigued by acronym for BUMF.
    Someone told me it was abbreviated from bumf(odder) , i.e. toilet paper/to be treated as such.
    I think we need a ruling from Paul on this.

18. William @12 and Paul @16 – I can’t find sedate = grave in either Collins or Chambers but see here: https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/sedate and here:
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/sedate

19. Yes I liked this too, with enough to challenge me as well as to enjoy. Thanks to Carpathian and Eileen. I thought 22a WEEVIL was very good, and agree with many of the favourite choices cited by Eileen and other contributors already.

20. Eileen@18, Paul@16 and William@12, SEDATE is given as a synonym for “grave” in my Chambers thesaurus app.

21. Failed 2d, 24ac (never heard of BUMF), 24d.

    This grid meant that it was like solving 4 mini puzzles. I solved the NW corner last.

    Liked PARANOID, CARELESS, MENACE.

    Thanks, both.

22. Thank you, Julie @20.

23. Bit hard for Monday but I did enjoy the ones I got.
    Thanks both.

24. Just good entertainment – all this body could want. Quiblets have already been addressed. In my life BUMF is spelled ‘bumpf’ (but have I read that or just heard it?) so the derivation proposed by Liverpool Chris@17 doesn’t work for me.

    Thanks Carpathian and Eileen.

25. Like many others, I started quickly but then got to some more chewy ones. Very enjoyable with Carpathian’s nice surfaces. As I know she often uses pangrams, I also went hunting for the non-existent J.

    I can’t quite see the context of SEDATE=grave but it’s in the Chambers Thesaurus both ways round, so I suppose it must be kosher. I liked DEMISE despite the rather loose London area, having racked my brains for places in the capital. I also liked CARELESS and the no id in PARANOID, and also DOGGEREL for the clue surface, although ‘lines’ seemed to be a trifle vague as a definition.

    Thanks Carpathian and Eileen.

26. thanks Eileen @18 and Julie @20

27. Tougher than the average Monday but a fun, inventive and fair puzzle from one of the lesser spotted setters from whom more would be most welcome.

    Like others I was a CARTer, though I wasn’t convinced, and RAFT is better. Z for zero was underwhelming but if the authorities say so….

    Thanks to C & E

28. In what context would you use Z for zero rather than 0?

29. Not sure what the problem is with “grave”. No need to consult a thesaurus. There are 5 headings for the word in Chambers Dictionary, and the second of these has “sedate” as its third entry.

30. Rudolf @29 – thank you. I don’t know how on earth I missed that: it’s there plainly enough now!

31. Mark @13. I took the PARA reference to be from the fact that they spend time in the air themselves (out of the aircraft) skydiving/parachuting.

    Thanks to E & C

32. muffin@3 and others. The full OED only acknowledges Z=zero in the initialisms Z-Day, ZBB (zero-based budgeting) and ZPG (zero population growth). I’m not keen on its use here.

33. Alphaalpha @24: BUMF as an abbreviation of ‘bum fodder’ (ie bathroom stationery) is the etymology given by all the dictionaries I have consulted. Your spelling looks like an attempt to disguise it! 🙂

34. Haven’t we been seeing BO (smell) as in 3d a lot lately?

    Love the surface of 13d — the dancing royal chap in front of the palace!

    Yes, Dave@5, ESTO fit the bill perfectly except that it doesn’t mean anything in either Frenchor English.

    I was stuck on CART too for a while.

    What a pleasant puzzle. Got the whole thing done last night, after thinking for a while that i was stuck at 2d (CART?). Then got it. Thanks, Carpathian and Eileen.

35. Thx to Carpathian for a thoroughly enjoyable start to the week. Slightly more challenging than the usual Monday fare but we all need a jolt sometimes. Some excellent surfaces and constructions. Share all of the same favourites as Eileen, to whom many thanks for the blog.

36. Thanks FumbleFingers

37. Yet another CART(load of monkeys) here, and a weary “well, I suppose it must be in the Holy Book” for Z(ero).
    But I did enjoy this, especially PARANOID, WEEVIL, DOGGEREL and SHIPMENT.

38. The Chambers app does give Z = zero (as well as zenith, zone and the wonderful zepto-) but I’m with FumbleFingers in believing that it is only really used in combination with other initials.

39. Gervase @38 – my Chambers dictionary gives the same four words but the entry is for a lower case ‘z’, which suggests a stand-alone abbreviation.

40. Gervase@33: I’m amazed at the underlying vulgarity. Now to introduce it into a conversation…..

41. Collins online dictionary has “z” = zero as being US, not UK, usage, but, as the entry in Chambers to which Eileen refers makes no such distinction, that must be sufficient to justify its use in the clue for 10A here. I’m aware that different crossword editors apply different rules as far as the use of single letter abbreviations is concerned. Both the Telegraph and Times have their own pretty restrictive lists. The FT allows anything given in the main UK dictionaries in general use, which, I assume, means Chambers, Collins and the Oxford Dictionary of English. I don’t know what the Guardian policy is, but guess it’s the same as the FT.

42. Thanks Carpathian & Eileen, I really enjoyed this.
    Loved DOGGEREL with that ‘party’ again (& maybe a tribute to Shirley Hughes?)
    and NO-SHOW is very neat.
    Also liked the possible references to a certain modern-day Tsar: a PARANOID ROGUE, an UNSTABLE MENACE and an ..EVIL GENIUS.
    Carpathia lives on.

43. Thanks both.
    Just DNF in the NW due to a dearth of brain cells, but pleased to have got so far, with only 3 left unfinished. A rare Monday success for me as it seems to have got trickier of late.
    22d was a new word for me, but fairly clued.

44. Thank you Carpathian and Eileen. A lovely start to the week – and there’s sunshine.
    Bradford gives z for zero, but not grave/sedate in either direction.
    Sadly z/Z now has a much more sinister pro-war meaning.

45. Thanks Carpathian for a better-than-average Monday crossword. I enjoyed many clues including PARANOID, SOB STORY (great surface), the very compact and readable NO-SHOW, and FELINE. I was another who did not see SEDATE as “grave” and I didn’t get “throw”as meaning “shy” in SHODDY. Thanks Eileen for your blog.

46. I had few minutes to kill so I thought I’d look up BUMF in my OED, which I view as more definitive than Chambers (Oxford were apparently unwilling to pay off the crosswording powers-that-be to have their work be the go-to reference. Either that or they don’t care. Or not enough people have it.)

    The OED says bumfodder. So I’m convinced.

47. Tony @45 – do you have these in America?

48. Thanks, Eileen, and yes, I agree – I’d love to see more Carpathian in the Monday slot. This was excellent all-round, as I know to expect from Carpathian, though I found it somewhat harder going than her Quiptics – but maybe that’s just down to me being bovine today.

    Being late to the party, I’ve nothing new to add to what has been said already but I’m fascinated to discover the origin of bumf – I’m always skeptical of these plausible-but-unlikely etymologies, which usually prove to have been made up much later than the word coming into circulation. But as per Dr WhatsOn @46, the OED does indeed provide plenty of evidence to support it. Well I never.

49. Muffin@3, essexboy@14
    SE is the post code prefix for the are south of the Thames eastern London.
    SE7 Charlton, SE8 Deptford, SE10 Greenwich, etc, where I was born, raised and educated, acceptable as an area of London.?

50. Cliveinfrance
    Yes, that’s what I said, but SE isn’t a “London area”. Our SE5 was Denmark Hill; that is a “London area”.

51. Muffin@50
    The original postal areas of London were set up in 1857 without any numbers, these were only added in 1917 to improve efficiency and were where the sorting offices were, SE was a postal area ( district) of London. The others surviving were E, NW, N, SW, WC, EC. THE NE and S districts were abolished.
    The numbers were allocated alphabetically except the suffix 1. SE5 is Camberwell.

52. My SE London area is Bermondsey, home of the Lions.

53. Now I think about it, I do know Z from ZHC – the dreaded Zero Hours Contract that I’ve had foisted onto me ever since the end of lockdown.

54. Clive @49/51 – true, but would a setter clue, say, ‘W’ or ‘E’ as ‘London area’? That would have to be legitimate, if Carpathian intended SE as the sector of London comprising the SE postal districts.

55. I’m another CARTer, but I couldn’t convince myself. I’m grateful to essexboy @14 therefore for doing just that! So I’m calling this a DF 🙂 .
    I so wanted the answer to 9 to be Heung-Min! Another clue, another time I guess.
    Quite fun and nicely chewy. Fave was 11 – the clocks went on here yesterday and I only realised at 4 pm, so the clue surface made perfect sense!
    Thanks, Carpathian and Eileen.

56. Muffin@54
    They would be legitimate, they were collectively known as the London Postal Area WC and EC often occur in crosswords but E and W are usually clued as compass points
    Hoofityoudonkey
    True Millwall fans still regard the home of the Lions to be Little Millwall in New Cross SE14, where The Den was.

57. Eileen @47: Thanks for the link. I haven’t been to a carnival or fair in decades so I know don’t know what we have in the US for such games.

58. Cliveinfrance
    Not me @54!

59. Muffin@58
    Sorry, that should be Essexboy, apologies

60. Didn’t know ACE.
    Good ‘un

    Thanks Carpathian & Eileen

61. Cliveinfrance @56 – surely *true* Millwall fans know that their spiritual home is E14 (the Isle of Dogs)? The real south-east London football clubs are, as any fule kno, Charlton and Arsenal.

    To get back on-topic, I parsed the clue the same way as essexboy, with “London area” meaning the south-east generally. Maybe Carpathian did mean the London postcode. No idea. Doesn’t really matter either way – there’s enough in the clue to point you towards the right answer. Solve the clue. Move on.

62. [widdersbel @61 Charlton and Arsenal? Charlton and Palace, shirley.]

63. [phitonelly @62
    Arsenal were originally Woolwich Arsenal, definitely SE London!. They sold out, though….]

64. Muffin @ 63

    But now definitely North London!

    (Marienkaefer, Gooner)

65. Ahem, not really welcome in Norf London actually.

66. Not in your part, certainly, Danny @65!

67. Fun puzzle, with 12a and 14a particular faves. Like many, I struggled with RAFT, my loi, but got there in the end.

    I remain unconvinced by Z = 0. The “it’s in Chambers / Collins” justification seems backward to me; if regular solvers have to look it up to verify that it’s a standard abbreviation, then it’s not one.

    Thanks Eileen and Carpathian.

68. Muffin@62
    Arsenal were originally Dial Square then Royal Arsenal. They changed to Woolwich Arsenal but never played in Woolwich, they played in Plumstead. Somewhere in my family history one of my uncles claimed to have played for them in the early 1900’s., my grandfather and father watched them until they moved after the suffragettes burnt the stand down, the insurance money paid for the move. Charlton became our club once they got into the league and were the real SE London club, Crystal Palace were outside the LCC boundary and were regarded as a South rather than a Sarf East London club.
    Widdersbel@61
    They moved in 1910 so any true supporters would need to be spirits by now.

69. [Cliveinfrance
    We soon learned that, when arriving at Euston from Lancashire, to get into the taxi before saying we wanted to go “sarf of the river”!]

70. Late here, but I don’t share the general enthusiasm – though I see many of my quibbles are scattered around: Z=zero?, RAFT (instead of CART), London = SE, SEDATE = grave??? – but especially ‘good government’ = GG – really????

71. I think RAFT works better than CART, as “a raft of measures” for instance, works by itself, but you would need “a cartLOAD” to mean a large number.

72. Dolesn’t BUMF = BUMFluff?

73. Nothing too taxing, and quite enjoyable. I’m not entirely comfortable with grave/sedate and suspicious/paranoid, nor Z for zero. Didn’t know “bovine” could mean “thick”, nor “rook” could mean “cheat”, and hadn’t heard of “bumf” — a term I shall happily add to my lexicon.

74. muffin @71 – yes, and for that reason CART clearly doesn’t work as a double definition.

    However, I’d suggest that it would be fine as an all-in-one cryptic definition:

    “It” – the cart
    “can transport” – what can a cart transport? – answer: a cartload, obviously
    “a large number” – a common colloquial expression for which is precisely the aforementioned cartload.

    Perhaps a question mark should be added to signal an allusive or whimsical definition, but even without I’d say it would be just as satisfactory as many Monday CDs I’ve seen.

75. TassieTim @ 70

    G = good as in G, VG etc

    G = government as in HMG

    Those were the least quibblesome

    And as previously pointed out, London is in the SE of UK

76. Thanks, essexboy @74. That’s exactly how I saw 2d, but I wasn’t totally convinced and didn’t write it in. Also didn’t get BOVINE and MENACE. Too many dubious (or hard to reach) definitions/synonyms for me.

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