Guardian Cryptic 28,766 by Qaos

87 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 28,766 by Qaos”

1. This was a challenging but enjoyable solve. I missed the theme completely. Of course the iceman @4 doesn’t arrive until late on in the play and there were shocks when he “finally arrived “.

2. Finally, I saw the name Qaos and remembered for once to look for a theme. Having got CHARLES and DARWIN early on it made life so much easier in being able to look for thematic answers and then working out how the clue fit.
   I always struggle to justify be=is in BEAGLE and I wondered about the “finally” in ICEMAN as if it was a long wait between writing and performance.
   Favourites were PRECISELY for the nicely hidden “see” and CLICK which appealed to the mathematician in me.

3. A nice challenge this morning but, as usual, the theme completely passed me by. Thanks to Qaos and loonapick.

4. I wish I remembered to look for themes!

   Thanks Qaos and loonapick

5. Missed the theme again! Oh, well. Very enjoyable, and mostly understood, but several reasons to scratch my head. I wouldn’t have got the wordplay for 3d in a fit. In 16a, Ely = see? I didn’t think a tor was a cliff. In 11a, “a” for acting?! In 20d, “o” for ordinary?! I managed to guess Eeyore, but my memories of A A Milne have faded too much to recall that said donkey was depressed. And it took me a while to work out why my fish was the correct answer for 18d.

6. The DESCENT of [ice]MAN. I spotted the theme about half way through, and it certainly helped on the east side. I enjoyed this one – CLICK was lovely, though I had doubts about loi OPERETTA (the A comes from acting?). Thanks, Qaos and loonapick.

7. Geoff DU @5 – I agree that ‘cliff’ is a very poor definition for TOR. Ely = see (a C of E term for a bishop’s seat or similar) is a very common crossie trope, especially to clue ELY).

8. I think 4 down might contain the final part of “The Descent Of Man” and if you squint your eyes you can just about see “Theory” in 14 across.

9. Geoff Down Under@5, ‘O’ for ordinary makes more sense in the UK where there used to be GCE “O” levels (ordinary) equivalent to year 10 in Aus and “A” levels (advanced, year 12).
   “a” for “acting is in Chambers (shrug)

10. Saw the theme about halfway through via BEAGLE and DARWIN, and it did help to get EVOLUTION. Couldn’t parse TOR at all (no, it isn’t exactly a cliff), or PRECISELY because I was too busy trying to make “see, I” into the CI in the middle.

    I know INANEST is probably on the official Old Chestnut list, but I liked it, along with ASPIRIN and SPECIES.

11. Liked the theme which had no direct references in the clues. I also wondered about TOR for ‘cliff’ and half-guessed the ICEMAN “Cometh”.

    Favourite was OPERETTA, especially for the misleading ‘Peter Pan’ bit.

    Thanks to Qaos and loonapick

12. Nice puzzle. I’m another one who spotted the theme when it was too late to be of any help!

13. Plenty of fun today with a non-intrusive theme (which would be a lovely way of disguising the fact I didn’t see it … though, on this occasion I did but about three (non-theme) answers from home!) ROLLER COASTER, STURGEON, NATURAL, WHIRLS and EYESORES were my favourites with SPECIES being COTD. The reverse acrostic was nicely done, if clearly signalled; the ‘a’ for ‘acting’ didn’t come to mind so went in unparsed and, no, I don’t see TOR and cliff as synonyms at all but daresay there will be a justification somewhere. I wonder how difficult is is for Qaos to continue to come up with mathematical clues? And whether he ever curses the Romans for not using more vowels in their numeric system …

    Thanks Qaos and loonapick

14. In many organisations the use of A for acting (meaning someone doing a temporary job) is widespread.

15. @Shirl I was about to make the same comment. Extremely common in the public service (in Australia).

16. Agree with Tim C regarding be=is. I can’t think of a sentence where they could be swapped.

17. I would add ‘genera’ hidden in 3d to the list of themed entries. (Though I actually missed the theme myself).

18. New for me: MEL = honey (although I know French miel and Italian miele) which I found in soME Like. In what language is MEL = honey?

    Liked ORIGINS, INANEST, TOR, EYESORES, AGGRIEVE, SPECIES, NATURAL, DESCENT (loi).

    I did not parse 3d.

    New for me: 4d reference to The Iceman Cometh & Broadway (thanks, google); ARCTAN.

    Forgot to look for a theme until the end and then I saw the Charles Darwin theme which would have helped me solve a few clues if I had spotted it earlier!

    Thanks, both.

19. Very enjoyable. The only time that BE can substitute for IS that I can think of is when be is an obsolete subjunctive. e.g. “Qaos, however inventive he be/is, will run out of numeral clues one day..” I dismissed ARCTAN as a solution twice, before I realised that it was a mathematical function.

20. Michelle @18 – I wondered the same thing about mel, but Chambers gives “mel (esp. pharmacy) = honey”.
    Add me to the list of those wondering about cliff = tor.
    A great deal of clever stuff here – DESCENT combines being precise with being short; AGGRIEVE, IN GENERAL, ROLLER COASTER, CHARLES and others beautifully constructed; lots of lovely surfaces.

    Thanks to Qaos and loonapick.

21. I also agree that BE does not equal IS, unless the speaker be from the West Country.

22. Mel = honey in English michelle @18 from the Latin for honey, usually used for purified honey or honey from a particular flower source used in medicine and cosmetics. It also appears in the name for Mead (a wine made from honey) to which fruit has been added and which is called Melomel.

23. Nice!!!

24. My very unmethodical “system” of just glancing at the clues at random led me to get DARWIN at the start, which was very helpful.

    “Be” for “is” is archaic and dialect usage, as in Blackadder:

    Blackadder: Tell me, young crone, is this Putney?
    Young Crone: [cackling] That it be! That it be!
    Blackadder: “Yes, it is,” not “That it be”. And you don’t have to talk in that stupid voice to me, I’m not a tourist!

    Many thanks Qaos and loonapick.

25. Another enjoyable solve for me. I couldn’t parse TOR exactly, although I suspected it had something to do with Torso. Tried to convince myself that Torvs might be an archaic plural. Doh!

    Also not convinced that TOR=Cliff. And nor do I think PRECIS=Abstract. I think PRECIS is a summary, but Abstract is a small section of a larger work. Willing to be corrected of course.
    But this is just nitpicking, and the definitions were close enough to allow me to get the answers.

    Missed the theme, but I usually do.

26. Re be = is: Petert has gone for obsolete, Gladys has gone for dialectal, and Lord Jim for a combination of the two (with comic effect thrown in for good measure). I’ll go for poetry (where many a linguistic relic doth yet live)

    “If there be a paradise on earth, it is this, it is this, it is this.”

    That example is rather old as well, but the ‘be’ goes on…
    If There Be Thorns (2015 film)
    …although in that one it’s plural as well as subjunctive, so the modern English would be ‘are’, not ‘is’.

    My other raised eyebrow was for ‘carrying’ in NATURAL. In a down clue I’d expect the thing being carried to be on top (or possibly inserted). But on reflection I carry a shopping basket (suspended beneath my hand), and a plane carries luggage (in the bottom bit), so all be well.

    Like others I thought PRECISELY was great, and I also liked the alien abduction producing CHARLES.

    Thanks Qaos and loonapick.

27. Insertion via ÷ was cute, but I forgot about the gloomy Eyore, so 24ac was a 25d. Otherwise all parseable, but agree about tor not=cliff. Well spotted re genera, George C @17. Nice to honour Darwin, truly one of the greats. Anything special about today re him? Probly not. Thanks both.

28. Actually, Peter T @19 and others, I think the subjunctive ‘be’ is in quite common use where there’s uncertainty or choice, as in ‘Whether it be …’ this or that.

29. Moth @25, having had to write an academic essay not that long ago, I can confirm that ‘abstract’ is used to describe a PRECIS of a longer document.

30. essexboy @26, thanks for the quotes about “be”. I just couldn’t get there with what’s in the BRB for ‘be’ and ‘is’ but then I was more Maths than English at the O for Ordinary level stage of my education.You’ve swayed me to almost accepting the equivalence, although I do find myself in agreement with Blackadder’s opinion in Lord Jim’s post @24.
    grantinfreao @27, moth @25 and others re Tor. I just gave 25 down when I inserted TOR as I was more worried about how to parse “very small trunks” and couldn’t get Tony Abbott and his Budgie Smugglers out of my mind. Chamb*** has Tor as “a hill, a rocky height” but I must admit cliff doesn’t come to mind when I’m thinking of a tor. It’s from the Latin word meaning tower and appears in Spanish as Torre as in the musical piece by Isaac Albeniz called Torre Bermeja (Vermillian Tower) which can be seen here.
    moth @25 Chamb*** has precis = “an abstract, a summary”

31. This was a DNF for me today (but I’m still relatively new to cryptics so it happens quite a lot) and had to reveal the last six. Five of them were ‘I should have known that‘ forehead-slappers, but ARCTAN I would never have got in a millennium.

    The parsing of TOR (a lucky guess) was TOR-tuous. I need to remember the other meaning of ‘see’, although even if I did, I’m not sure I would have landed on ELY straight away. I liked LEATHERY, INANEST and EYESORES. Minor (irrelevant) quibble but I think ROLLERCOASTER is generally one word, not two?

    Anyway, my education continues so thanks both.

32. ginf @28 /Tim C @30
    I think ginf’s point is a fair one, about ‘be’ still being current after ‘whether’, especially in language which is consciously a bit old-fashioned.
    Whether it be for good or ill…
    and of course, Whether the weather be fine…

    If crosswords be the food of thought, solve on.

33. I don’t think I’ve ever stared at a three letter T-something-R solution and thought, I have no idea what the answer is. Surely TOR can’t be a cliff? Apart from that, strictly a DNF by a single letter, I found the rest of the puzzle was excellent and great fun in places. Thought the clueing for AGGRIEVE extremely convoluted…totally missed the Charles Darwin theme.

34. NeilH @ 20 and Tim C @22
    thanks for explaining re MEL.
    Luckily it sort of made sense to me as I knew the Italian and French words for honey.

    I only have access to Chambers online and they do have the word mel there. I think that it is an abridged version of the dictionary.
    https://chambers.co.uk/search/?query=mel&title=21st

35. Thanks Qaos & loonapick. I saw the theme and it helpeth me.
    I loved that like a ROLLERCOASTER (did the BEAGLE mostly ROLL around COASTs?) we had a bit of up and down in ASPIRIN’ and DESCENT.
    And this reminded me of Jacob Bronowski’s TV series ‘The Ascent of Man’, the title of which alludes to Darwin’s book.
    Also liked ORIGINS IN A NEST, if only because I can be a birdbrain sometimes!

36. michelle @34 (and NeilH @20 & Tim C @22): and that same ‘mel’ is at the root of ‘mellifluous’ which is, technically ‘as honey flows’ or something like that which is just lovely.

37. eb@26 – yes slung like a bomb carriage
    eb@32 🙂

38. For those struggling with the concept of tor referring to a cliff.
    Towering over the river Derwent at Matlock, Derbyshire is High Tor. A cliff popular with rock climbers.
    There are other examples.

39. [wynsum @35: I have a signed copy of a book by Jacob Bronowski with a lovely personal message. I was about 10 when the series was broadcast and had written an essay for school on the ‘Descent of Man’ (full of – slightly premature – teenage angst!). My father sent it off, without my knowledge, to the BBC noting the contrast between the two sentiments and a few weeks later, we received the book. A lovely touch from a great man. ]

40. michelle @34, did you mean they don’t have the word in Chambers online? When I click on the link it says “no exact matches for mel”. I’m surprised that I have access. The Chambers app seems to be based on the 11th edition (2008) although it’s surprising if a word like mel is not in there but it is in the 13th (2014) edition and the 1983 edition (both hardcopies of mine)

41. PostMark @36, what a lovely word mellifluous is. Sadly, in order to keep an eye on the diabetes I tend to avoid being mellivorous and just use it in the Elderberry wine I make.

42. [PostMark@39 that’s amazing! a priceless and timely gift – you’ve inspired me to order the book adaptation]

43. Thanks for the blog, I actually got the theme with one clue left to go. CHARLES and DARWIN right next to each other near the end of the Downs .
    MEL for honey often used by Azed , it does turn up inside a lot of words.
    I thought INANEST was very clever, and PRECISELY nicely misleading.
    ARCTAN an usual function, it actually maps all the real numbers to a very restricted range.

    Thank you Umberto @38 , over-ruling my quibble with a very nice example.

44. MEL=honey is in Chambers 93 which of course is the definitive source for all crosswords.

    Commercial break, Blah and MrPostMark have produced more puzzles for MyCrossword, The links are on General Discussion. Highly recommended although one of them is a little too highbrow for me.

45. GinF @28: Spot on re the subjunctive “be”. I would add “So be it”.

    If you have to have a theme (I’m not a fan, surprise, surprise) then Qaos’s clever, non-intrusive way of slipping one in is most agreeable.

    Another tor=cliff doubter here but otherwise an excellent crozzie.

    Thanks both.

46. Another good one from Qaos. When I started I made a mental note to look for a theme – then promptly forgot as soon as I got stuck in to the puzzle. Sigh 🙁

    Favourites already lauded and nothing much to add, except that I parsed ‘Lassie on vacation’ as BE(L)LE – which isn’t fully evacuated, but gets round the indicative/subjunctive issue (the parsing ‘is’ = BE didn’t even occur to me). Although it almost certainly isn’t what Qaos had in mind!

    Thanks to S&B

47. BTW, isn’t INANEST an ugly word?

48. I was happy with CLIFF/TOR on the grounds that the it made the surface funnier and, if you look up TOR in Chambers Thesaurus the first entry is CLIFF so I’d excuse it on the grounds of categorical equivalence. And it was the second double-subtraction of the day

    COTD for me was IN GENERAL for the double cricket reference and double subtraction

    Was it coincidence that INANEST came right after BORIS?

49. Thank you RobT and TimC for sorting out Abstract for me. I think I must have been mixing it up with Extract. Oh, and RobT, you will surely begin to think of Ely as soon as the word See appears in a crossword clue. It occurs often.

50. William@49 – it’s certainly the most non-sensical

51. @49 – thank you!

52. Some fun, some tor[pun intended]tuous clues. I may as well start with my doubts about the definition of TOR, Matlock Tor notwithstanding as an exceptional example of a cliff-like structure with the name. And my usual bugbear of using the first letter of a word as a clue – in this case ‘acting’ as the clue for a in OPERETTA. Never heard of ICEMAN as homonym for assassin but no doubt someone can find it as a definition in some dictionary.
    Also not sure what ‘finally’ is doing in the clue, although I am not familiar with the play itself, only the title.
    Favourites that I parsed were LEATHERY, CLICK, EYESORE and CZECH. Thanks to loonapick for explaining those that I could only guess, BEAGLE, AGGRIEVE and IN GENERAL (as well as ICEMAN). Thanks Qaos for an entertaining puzzle

53. Michelle@34 just for interest, honey in Welsh is mêl

54. A super crossword, where I would have been very embarrassed if I hadn’t seen the theme.

    I be thinking that there’s not much wrong with BEAGLE. I liked OPERETTA because of Peter Pan, WHIRLS because of the whirling clothes in a launderette, IN A NEST, even if it’s a chestnut, and SPECIES and CHARLES for the surfaces.

    Thanks Qaos and loonapick.

55. It’s the anniversary of the ‘Scopes Monkey Trial’ verdict, if you want another thematic connection. On “be”/”is”, no one’s mentioned the mandative subjunctive yet, which is far from obsolete: “I demand that he be/is punished.” Agree that 30a’s clue was a wasted opportunity to be more topical…

56. Paul@52 I do not think that ICEMAN is meant to be an actual definition for assassin , more a whimsical allusion. ICE is slang for kill ( mainly US ) . I always think I have heard the phrase – put him on ice – in various films.

57. I accept that I should never have attended a leaving party for the subjunctive. I was only trying to show my support for all its hard work.

58. Roz @56 – Chambers has ICE MAN for a professional hitman

59. For what it’s worth the Iceman of the play was himself a killer, unless I’m misremembering how it ends.

60. Wait I am misremembering, the character in the play isn’t the iceman himself, but rather the iceman figures in a rambling story whose details I’ve forgotten.

    Though I’m not sure it makes sense to say the Iceman “finally” arrived on Broadway!

61. Thanks Qaos for an excellent crossword. I was looking for a theme and I spotted it early with BEAGLE and SPECIES in the NW corner. That helped with solving some of the other themed clues. Favourites included LEATHERY, TSARS (nice surface), PRECISELY, EVOLUTION, CLICK (love the numerical clues), and the simple INANEST. I needed a look-up for AGGRIEVE. Thanks loonapick for the blog.

62. I don’t understand how see = ELY — any help?

63. Umberto Nobile @38, yes, a good example. With my climbing helmet on (I am, after all, a monkey), I certainly think of cliff, crag, creag, craig, boulder, pinnacle, tor etc. as similarly climbable stone features, along with rib, chimney, slab, wall, edge, bastion, and many others.

64. Terry @52, a See is a diocese, and Ely is one such.

65. I got the theme nice and early with DARWIN and BEAGLE but completely forgot to make use of it. I got SELECTION and thought “of course, why didn’t I think of the theme?”
    ABSTRACT = PRECIS is in the online dictionary.
    I remembered ARCTAN from trigonometry at school but have no idea what it is.
    Thanks both…

66. Terry@62: tassietim@7 has explained it; an “episcopal see” can be the domain of a bishop, and Ely Cathedral is a well known see. Or something like that. The most common use of “See” in this sense that I’m familiar with is the “Holy See” meaning the Pope’s jurisdiction as Bishop of Rome, but really I’m just used to “see” = “Ely” in these puzzles now.

67. @62, of course!

    More accurately, a See is “the place in which a cathedral church stands, identified as the seat of authority of a bishop or archbishop.”

68. Thanks Qaos & Loonapick. I always enjoy a Qaos and this was no exception. Lots of fun. DARWIN and BEAGLE gave away the theme, and that helped me spot a couple of other solutions, eg ORIGINS.

    Couldn’t parse ICEMAN though (didn’t think of the play) and completely failed to spot OPERETTA – A for acting is unfamiliar, and I’m not wholly persuaded that “Peter Pan” works grammatically, but it’s a clever trick so I’ll turn a blind eye to that.

    As for TOR… well, I don’t think I’ve ever seen quite so many people being wrong on one crossword blog. The definition “cliff” is absolutely fine, for the reasons Umberto Nobile @38 and Monkey @63 spell out. Maybe not *precisely* the same thing, but certainly close enough.

69. Great puzzle, excellent parsing, thanks Qaos and loonapick

70. HYD@65 ARCTAN is just the inverse of tan from trigonometry.
    At school you will have done tan= opposite/ adjacent. I will use degrees ( radians are much sounder but not at school I think )
    Tan 45 ( degrees ) = 1 so ARCTAN of 1 means the angle must have been 45 degrees.

71. [On ‘see’ = diocese, last year one or two of us tried to come up with clues in which ‘see’ meant a diocese other than Ely.

    Pino suggested
    Crazy about crew member? We’ll see. (4,3,5)
    See without whiff of American night time visitor (7)
    (solutions @248 if you follow the link)

    I responded with
    See more bananas (4)
    See and hear authentic Greek character (5)
    Crushed ice? Er… let’s see (9)
    …to which I unhelpfully gave no solutions, but they’re easier.]

    [Petert @57: 🤣
    At least you left before the imperative threw up all over the indicative.]

72. Thanks Qaos and loonapick
    I haven’t commented yet, as I had nothing in particular to contribute,, but now I have – I’m in awe of all of you who spot themes because you remember solutions you have already written in! This theme was right up my street, but I didn’t see it, of course.

73. Roz @70 – Thanks for that, opposite over adjacent rings a bell, though radians were a bit of a mystery.
    I recall that the mnemonic for sine was, OHMS (Opposite over Hypotenuse Means Sine).

74. Eb@71 They were all in a mood.

75. HYD we were taught SOHCAHTOA to remember all three. It is much easier these days , calculators are used instead of tables and they have the inverse functions as well.

    MrEssexboy @71 thanks for the reminder , I remember this . Think it cropped up because of the IofM and Sodor appeared in a puzzle in some form.

    RobT @ 31 watch out for ELY , it turns up a lot because it is the end of so many words. Often SEE as today, also CATHEDRAL , rarely DIOCESE or BISHOPRIC.
    Yoy need to treat every word with suspicion when reading the clue.

76. Thanks loonapick as I had no idea where TOR came from and fixated on the C I in PRECISELY rather than the funky cathedral city. I agree that “Pan (Peter)” would be clearer but that it is less smooth. Enjoyed the grammatical enlightenment and the trig blast from the past, and had a lot of fun solving esp the Qaotic maths ( has it been a while?) thanks Qaos

77. [@59 & @60 Matt W: It is Hickey for whom the collection of drunks in the saloon are waiting and who, indeed, *finally* arrives. He is a traveling salesman not an iceman. But yes, he is a killer: he killed his wife, tormented by her constant, saintly forgiveness of his infidelities while on the road selling his wares. Before the days of refrigeration, the Iceman was the one who made daily deliveries for the iceboxes that homes used to keep food fresh. Much like the English popular reference to the milkman (when a child is born who bears no resemblance to its father, we are instructed to check the looks of the milkman), the iceman had the reputation of keeping housewives company while husbands were away at work and the marital bed was empty. Thus Hickey is a figurative iceman, for his infidelities, not a literal one]

78. I’m usually fairly philosophical about synonyms that aren’t exact but my eyebrows did shoot up at Tor = Cliff! I put in TOR as the answer because I couldn’t think of anything else. I am not convinced that the two are equivalent. I would suggest that High Tor is a (sort of) Tor that has a cliff on one side. The Tors I am familiar with in Scotland are “towers” that may have cliff faces on one or more sides.

79. I don’t really have a strong opinion either way in the TOR/cliff debate, but I thought I’d just put in a little plug for Mam Tor in the Peaks in Derbyshire, known somewhat romantically as the Shivering Mountain. Here is a link to it showing a rather cliff like face.

80. Crossbar @79 Good photo which I would say backs up my argument.

81. I come from Devon, and Dartmoor is full of tors (I think it has almost all of them). None of which you’d call a cliff though. They’re just big-ass rocks, sitting on top of hills. Fun things to climb as a child, nice tourist attractions (you’d often find an ice-cream van near a popular one, and be able to grab yourself a Mivvi), but they’re absolutely not a cliff.

82. Last time I was reading the fifteensquared comments on a Qaos puzzle, someone pointed out there’s always a theme. So today I was on the look-out for one. When I had finished, I thought “Qaos is having a laugh – he’s not used a theme this time!” I guess I’m not very observant. Thanks Qaos, and loonapick for parsing TOR – I got the answer as it’s a sort of cliff, but couldn’t see why.

83. Never heard of Ayrton Senna, and really, I think expecting solvers to follow F1 Racing is a GK too far. I don’t follow football/soccer or cricket either, but I know they’re widely discussed so that’s okay with me, but F1 (or snooker) are a bit specialized, no?

    I couldn’t assemble the bits of AGGRIEVED or WHIRLS, and didn’t see the division sign in CLICK (thought it was another plus sign), so thanks loonapick for that plus plenty more.

    “If this be treason make the most of it!” is something American schoolchildren learn about Patrick Henry saying in revolutionary times. Having just googled it, I found ti’s cleverer than I’d thought as a way of avoiding a charge of treason.

    Mr Smeam @55 I would say “that he be punished,” but English writers seem almost always o say “I demand that he is punished,” which sounds to me like insisting on a statement of fact. I’d concluded that the mandative subjunctive (never heard it called that before) didn’t exist in the UK and was probably protected by the Official Secrets Act.

    Thanks for the puzzle, Qaos, wonderful theme that I totally missed. Thanks for the blog, .loonapick.

84. Valentine
    There’s actually been a film made about Ayrton Senna, so he is probably the best known F1 driver.

85. Completed, despite missing the theme completely. Ben Stokes is getting a lot of use at the moment, isn’t he?

86. Loved INANEST and ARCTAN. Don’t like “acting” for A or “ordinary” for O or (obviously) “cliff” for TOR. Had heard of Senna but had to Google to remind myself of his name. Even despite all that this was a fun one – thanks.

87. It’s sad that nobody has questioned why “evolution” is assumed to be a synonym of “progress” (19ac). I suppose we’ve all been conditioned by those car adverts.

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