Guardian Saturday Prize Crossword 28,859 by Picaroon (10 September 2022)

49 comments on “Guardian Saturday Prize Crossword 28,859 by Picaroon (10 September 2022)”

1. Many tas for the beaut humerous summary, rapper! My patchy knowledge shown up by Pickers here; Eliot’s Four Quartets rang only a faint bell (but the clue was great fun), and ditto that Mozart work. Dosser, one of those Brit-isms learnt from cop shows, always takes a minute to click. Haven’t played chess since school, but do remember that pawns reaching the other end turn into a queens! All fun, thanks both.

2. Thanks Picaroon and rapper though for a change all parsed.
   Nice to see Cervantes as reading Don Q again at the moment.

3. Thank you mc_rapper67 and Picaroon.
   Loved this. So many good clues with amusing surfaces and particularly apt indicators: had vexed, larks around giddily, installed in … laptop, revolutionary English Left, with ignored, reversing car, love-filled poet, over-turned ikon, offspring hugs, reformed Greens, mounting attack.
   A Master Class in setting.

   Hard to pick a favourite. DIARRHOEA and ALLERGENS were hilarious. Liked GRACELAND and FRETBOARD.
   CHARLADIES took me a while as I was misdirected by the def. Will the PC brigade try to eliminate Charlie for twerp now? … especially if what I read as its origin is true…. (unprintable) rhyming slang? Had no idea.

4. Very likeable challenge. I had trouble with seeing the parse for 20d NISSAN. 17d was a largely unfamiliar Mozart work, as for you, gif@1, so I was chuffed to work out IDOMENEO from the wordplay and crossers and have it verified by Google. I really liked 13a CHARLADIES, 27a DRUNK AS A LORD and 14d DIARRHOEA. Many thanks to Picaroon and mc_rapper67 (Lovely blog, Mike – made me laugh out loud!)

5. [Crossed with you or I would have acknowledged some similarities, paddymelon@3)

6. Enjoyed this though didn’t quite finish in the SE as not heard of 17d or 26a and didn’t get PASSED PAWN or GRACELAND.

   Favourites included: FOUR QUARTETS, CHARLADIES, FRETBOARD, TROPE, URGENTLY, BUDDHA

   Thanks Picaroon and mc_rapper67

7. [Had no idea either, pdm@3 … always thought of it as much milder, like twerp in fact…]

8. I can’t remember much about this solve except I did have a mark next to DIARRHOEA as a favourite.

9. Thanks Picaroon for another masterwork. I thought the surfaces for TITTER and DOSSIER were superb; UGLY, NUMBERS, TROPE, OSPREY, and DIARRHOEA also earned ticks but there were no substandard clues when I think about it. The only clue that baffled me was CHARLADIES — Charlie=twerp and “daily” as the definition were both new to me. Thanks mc_rapper67 for your thoughtful blog.

10. I too thought this was pretty easy for a prize, although the clues were clever and mostly fresh….well, the osprey and roe deer clues are as old as the hills, and an antelope is nearly obligatory nowadays. I did learn a few passages from Eliot’s Quartets when I was in college, some 50 years ago. Some of the vocabulary still pops into my head occasionally – where else can you see an example of sempiternal used in a sentence?

11. Thanks for a great blog , I really enjoyed this , I could mention many clues but a lot mentioned above. Just a few, PASSED PAWN is a great definition,NUMBERS for elegant simplicity, HONKY-TONK for deception and NOKIA for a great Playtex.
    I can even forgive the reminder at 9AC.
    Qu – Why did Nick Clegg cross the road?

    [mc sorry to nitpick , a couple of minor typos, both for HONKY-TONK but different ]

12. Still don’t get why DES is article in Le Monde. Surely des is “of the”, not just the?

13. Great thanks Picaroon and mc_rapper67. Quite a struggle for me … only just concluded … but much enjoyed. Good to see TONK for hit. Being a chess player, PASSED PAWN fell easily. Such a fine but sadly apt clue. Crossword editors must be working hard to vet at the moment, however long puzzles have been banked.

14. Hmm, good question, Crispy …what part of speech is ‘des’, or ‘du’… ? Anna … essexboy … anyone?

15. crispy @12, grantinfreo @14… French singular definite article is la, le or l’ (plural is les). Singular indefinite article is un or une. Plural indefinite article is des, translated as “some”. That is if my 50 year old schoolboy French is remembered correctly. The only person more surprised than me when I passed French O level was the French teacher!

16. All solved and parsed, although I had to Google IDOMENEO.

    I do know that DES is used far more than we use some in English. A lot of the time we don’t bother with articles, whereas the French always do, and DES is often the article used. It’s not just some or of them but also from the as in partir des États-Unis for leaving the United States, and no doubt other meanings I have forgotten or have never known.

17. And thank you to Picaroon and mc_rapper667

18. Indefinite article, that’s the term, remember now, thanks Tim C.

19. Thanks Tim @16 and Shanne @17. I thought LES was the plural definite article, as in “Les Miserables”, bur French O level was a long time go.

20. I enjoyed the puzzle but it was over fairly quickly if I remember right.

    DES is regarded as the plural of the Partitive Article (du, de la etc, as has been said), so I think Picaroon is justified in calling it an Article.

    I don’t know why our blogger says that Nokia is defunct. Nokia is actually the name of a place near Tampere, the factory was established many years before mobile phones and produced hardware and kitchen products. Nokia phones can still be purchased here in Finland. I understand that they are no longer made in Finland, though, and the last time I was in Nokia the place, it was looking very shabby and run down, as are many small towns here. (There is also Nokia Renkaat, making tyres, but I think they are another company altogether).

    Thanks to Picaroon and tomc_rapper667

21. A brilliantly constructed puzzle that ended very satisfyingly for me with the topical and clever PASSED PAWN the LOI. This may have been the best of many lovely surfaces: CHARLADIES, FRETBOARD, DIARRHOEA, BIDE, NYALA, NISSAN, LIBYAN and TITTER.

    I greatly regretted the passing of Araucaria, and had there been a queue in which fellow cruciverbalists could have paid tribute by sharing their favourite clues then I would have joined it. But in Paul, Brendan, and Picaroon we have setters who regularly produce work that in their skill and craftsmanship I find as satisfying to engage with as miniature works of art. The great man’s legacy is safe in their hands.

    Thanks to Picaroon, mc-rapper67, and everyone contributing to this excellent blog.

22. Good to get a language and geography lesson from Anna @20 . I had not heard of the phone or the town and I would have put NOCIA if the K was not in place from HONKY-TONK .

23. [Nokia very familiar … a Finnish colleague of Mrs ginf used to train their execs]

24. An excellent puzzle, as so many have said. I liked CHARLADIES and PASSED PAWN best.

    As chess players know, a passed pawn when promoted does not necessarily become a Queen (it can be any Piece), but the definition ‘possible future queen’ clearly allows for that, as it does for the fact that a pawn most often does not get promoted at all.

    Thanks to Picaroon and mc_rapper67.

25. An excellent puzzle and blog. Thanks. I am pretty sure “des” is a French article, though not definite.

26. Nice one, Petert

27. Cervantes’ title is usually given as Don rather than Señor, but more to the point the ‘ñ’ in Spanish is a separate letter, not an ‘n’ with an accent. The clue doesn’t work for me.

    Aside from that, an enjoyable puzzle.

    (By the way, Nokia is not defunct.)

28. Pt @25 🙂
    I thought this was a lovely, beautifully constructed puzzle but I’m not convinced it was challenging enough for the prize slot

    Many thanks mc&p

29. poc @ 27

    You’re quite right about Nokia. I’m sure you have seen my comment @ 20.
    Totally agree about the n and ñ too. But this is a British newspaper, such things are beyond the editors.
    Actually I wonder if it’s actually an american newspaper these days.

30. 1@ being the first I tried I wasted time trying to fit in “gallon” – like many others, I suspect. When I got it the answer reminded me that for some foreign speakers two pints make one cavort, though it would have to be stronger than my usual tipple.
    Anyone else try DEBASES @ 11 until 2d ruled it out?
    Plenty of chuckles here, as in the headline in the paper, “Coffey urges staff to be positve, be precise, and not use Oxford commas”.
    Thanks to Picaroon and mc_rapper67.

31. Pino@30
    Ms Coffey at least got something out of her Oxford education, even though it may not have been a degree.

32. Thanks Picaroon and mc.
    14d is now officially how I will remember how to spell DIARRHOEA from now on, should I ever need to.

33. Started off slowly and barely got a foothold in the first pass, but then most things clicked into place with a bit of thought and by the end I agree that it was at the lighter end of the prize difficulty spectrum. New to me but gettable: NYALA and IDOMENEO.

    Particular favourites: PASSED PAWN, NOKIA and NUMBERS.

    Cheers both!

34. RobT @33 you will need to brush up on types of deer/antelope, many fill a difficult spot in the grid. Eland , oribi , impala …….
    I agree that IDOMENEO was ell clued for something pretty obscure.

35. Thanks for the summary mc_rapper, o am another who really enjoyed this for great clueing, whether for the wit of 14d or the fairness of the new-to-me 17d and more besides. Nearly fell at the last with an unparsed RAISED PAWN but luckily decided to check chess terms online, and there is some interesting reading on the choice of piece to which a successful passed pawn is raised (although with my chess ineptitude I am unlikely to put this knowledge into practice). Thanks Picaroon for another fine experience. PS fans of Picaroon should check out the current Genius puzzle online which is one of the more approachable ones and contains many more clues of the standard we have come to expect.

36. 11ac I was with Crispy@12 in wondering whether ‘des‘ is really an article. However, as Picaroon is a modern languages teacher, I guessed it probably really was and Anna@12 has given us the technical term: ‘partitive article’ (although I’d already bought into Tim C’s “indefinite plural article”).

    19ac I thought PASSED PAWN was tough for non-chess players, although none seem to have complained here. Perhaps we all play chess?

    25ac Didn’t know the word TONK before, but correctly inferred its existence after working out HONKY.

    5dn The word TITTER always makes me think of this old joke.

    17dn, for me, IDOMENEO was, as for Julie@4, a ‘jorum’.

    Paddy melon@3, your comment would have been easier to understand if you’d mentioned the full expression, ‘Charlie Hunt’, which isn’t in itself unprintable (and nor is what it stands for, if you’re Collins writing a dictionary entry).

    Poc@27, “the ‘ñ’ in Spanish is […] not an ‘n’ with an accent”. Technically, maybe not, but in fact, that’s exactly what it is, just as RR is two actually R’s (just look at them!). It’s customary in crosswords to ignore the accent letters carry in their original language. Putting it another way, ‘senor’ is the English way of representing the Spanish word ‘señor’. I don’t think Picaroon should have to find another Spanish word to cross with it

37. Good puzzle. Failed to get 1d and two cross clues, and to explain a few others, all obvious and doable in retrospect, so kicking myself.

38. Tony Collman@36: I’m not sure what you mean about RR being two R’s. Of course it is. No-one (in Spanish or English) would say any different. Ñ is not the same. It originally stood for NN (thus Donna became Doña) and is now legitimately a separate letter in the Spanish alphabet. In fact a similar thing happened with LL , though that never became popular. If Picaroon didn´t want to use another Spanish word as a crosser, he could easily have avoided the necessity by changing the clue.

39. Poc

    If you follow the link I gave to the Spanish alphabet set to music, you will see that, as well as classing Ñ as a different letter from N, it also treats RR and LL as separate letters. I haven’t made a formal study of Spanish so I’m not sure how legitimate that is, but that’s what I was referring to.

    It seems to be your in-depth knowledge of Spanish philology that has got in the way of your solving this clue, as I don’t think anyone else had a problem with it (nor should they, given that Collins gives SENOR as an English version of SEÑOR).

    “If Picaroon didn´t want to use another Spanish word as a crosser, he could easily have avoided the necessity by changing the clue”

    Do you mean by changing the fill to use a different answer (SANER or SONAR)? Or by changing the clue to indicate somehow that it’s the English version that’s required?

40. Tony Collman@39: The linked video is a guide to pronunciation, not a correct listing of the alphabet (note that is also includes CH, which was retired as a separate letter several years ago). More to the point, the actual alphabet (see https://www.spanishdict.com/guide/the-spanish-alphabet) doesn’t include CH, LL or RR, but still includes Ñ. In other words, it’s the same as the English alphabet plus one extra letter.

    What I meant was that Picaroon could have chosen a different answer (SANER or SONAR would work), and of course alter the surface to suit.

    I’m sure this is all as dust in the wind. People have complained about it for years to no effect. At least the Grauniad has, I think, so far managed to avoid the contentious ANO in place of AÑO (look it up), which the New York Times features fairly regularly.

41. Thanks for all the comments and feedback – seems like a well-received puzzle…typos corrected, thanks, Roz…

    Beaucoups des comments regardant 11A!

    Apologies to Anna at #20 (and others) for consigning Nokia to defunction…from a UK-centric point of view, they are no longer in the mobile phone market, and I have a drawer full of defunct Nokia phones! I have amended the description slightly.

    I’m not qualified to enter into the lingusitic debate about squiggly ‘n’s at 23D, but I will point out that it was me that linked the clue to a specific Spaniard…Picaroon may have been using ‘de Cervantes’ as a generic Spanish name (and just leading us in a certain direction by using ‘writer’ elsewhere in the clue…)

42. mc_rapper67@41: I’m sorry to be That Guy, but according to nokia.co.uk the company does still sell phones in the UK. I’ll get me coat …

43. Poc@40

    Thanks for the link to the actual Spanish alphabet. I think it’s established that SENOR is an English word and that was the word in the grid. Still, it has been interesting learning something about the Spanish language, for which, thanks.

    I haven’t looked up those words but I think the problem may be related to the late Queen’s ‘anus horribilis‘?

44. Tony @43
    … annus horribilis, please!
    I was particularly interested in seeing senor (without the tilde) as the headword in the Collins online dictionary entry (which I saw via your link), which goes on to say “Also señor“. The pronunciation (with the embedded ‘y’ sound) is the same either way.
    My Collins print dictionary (sixth edition 2003) has the spelling with the tilde, with no alternative, and my Chambers (2016 edition) is exactly the same.

45. Tony Collman@43: In fact the Latin phase is annus horribilis, but if you remove one of the ‘n’s you get the idea.

    Alan B@44: Indeed. Both the the online Chambers and the mobile app only have Señor and don´t offer Senor as an alternative.

    As an aside, and to further confuse the issue, the word tilde in English refers to the diacritical on the ñ, but in Spanish tilde means “accent mark” (it comes from tildar, meaning to tick). However in Spanish the diacritical on the ñ is not called a tilde but a virgulilla, and has nothing to do with stress. Just thought I´d mention that 🙂

46. [poc @45
    I found your ‘aside’ to be of great interest! I did not know that Spanish word virgulilla – which incidentally is itself devoid of any diacritical marks only because that modified ‘l’ sound is represented orthographically by doubling that letter!
    While reading up about all this I learned that the marks we are discussing are called ‘diacritics’ or ‘diacritical marks’, whereas ‘accents’ are a subset of such marks, typically indicating stress or possibly a different vowel sound.]

47. Looks like this side discussion will be going on ’til de’ cows come home…(;+>)

48. Alan B@46: as I mentioned earlier, the double L was at one time regarded as a distinct letter with its own glyph (which I can’t reproduce here), but those days are long gone.

    mc_rapper67@47: point taken. I’ll stop now 🙂

49. Alan@45, Poc@46, yes, thank you, I am aware that the late monarch referred, in fact, to an “annus horribilus“. I was making a joke (perhaps first seen here) based on my hunch that in Spanish año means ‘year’ and ano, anus.

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