Guardian Cryptic 28,916 by Brummie

102 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 28,916 by Brummie”

1. That was fun, albeit I forgot to look for a theme. Very satisfying. RED was my last in with a deafening thunk as the penny dropped.

   Thanks to Brummie and loonapick

2. Well it’s a fail for me as I had an unparsed Coal Pit (I googled OAL and wished I hadn’t). And I couldn’t work out the definition for RED, although I parsed it (it’s usually the other way round). So thank you loonapick.

   I didn’t notice the theme, but that’s quite usual for me.

3. I think Mnemonics might be an unintentional themer. Not anywhere near famous enough to count. Having said that, there was a band called Clinic in the late nineties who scraped into the lower reaches of the Indie charts.

4. I enjoyed this. Never heard of dagobas, despite having visited Sri Lanka. I couldn’t parse 18a, knowing nothing of snooker. Didn’t know Sue Townsend, although I probably should have, as author of Adrian Mole (and my predictive text just brought up “Townsend when I typed “Sue”!). Constables for specials was a bit loose, unless I’m missing something.

5. The theme was wasted on me!

6. Sailed through all except RED and made a bad guess… perhaps in future I should look harder for a theme (although I don’t think I’d have connected it to SIMPLY in any case). A really nice puzzle though.

7. A bit gentler than I usually find Brummie, probably due to the theme. Looking up after finishing (I’d never heard of them before), I also found DAGOBA (new word for me too), ANON and STRAY as the names of bands.

   I don’t know if the common subject matter was intentional or related to the theme, but I liked MARBLES and MADNESS as well as RED.

   Thanks to Brummie and loonapick

8. For a change bands actually was the theme, instead of my annoying obsession with trying to fit them in. There is also STRAY (Cats). All parsed with the two obscure words being gettable. Very nice indeed.

   Ta Brummie & loonapick.

9. Well that was fun. Thanks for spotting the theme loonapick. Even though I now know to look for one with Brummie, I missed it as always. Lots to like including ANON (with a bit of a groan!), and PRIMAL (only after getting it did I remember the cockney rhyming slang trick). Can anyone tell me why the capital W for wood in 31A? There was a nice link to that answer and the clue for 27A as Paul Simenon was in The Clash.

10. GDU @4: SPECIALS are voluntary Constables in UK Police Forces/Services but they can also be Sergeants, Inspectors etc, hence the ? I guess.

11. Thanks Loonapick.
    Got BLUR first off from wordplay, and as I’ve learned from British cryptic crosswords, it’s a band. So, as it was a Brummie, I stored this away for a possible themester. Saw PRIMAL SCREAM and thought it was a movie, but was quickly disillusioned. CREAM, COLD PLAY, and SIMPLY RED followed.
    Favourite clues were my last 2 in, the intersecting MADNESS and DAGOBA.
    MADNESS – loved the def, nutty quality, and the refined ‘and’.
    DAGOBA because, despite the alarm bell of a strange surface indicating something is going on, didn’t see the hidden without crossers, and wasn’t going to look up the def.

12. DAGOBA are a French heavy metal band and RECONDITE is a Berlin based ambient techno artist

    For once I got the theme and it even helped although I wasted time looking for the STRAY CATS

    Also, Paul SIMENON was the bass player in the CLASH

    Cheers B&L

13. Paul @9: nice link.

14. [apologies for the crossing. Must learn to type faster!]

15. Good to have worked in so many themers and that explains a couple of very odd words. PRODIGY was COTD for me. As loonapick has noted, it would have been nice to have avoided the repetitions – including ‘Clinton’ which is used twice for fodder.

    Thanks Brummie and loonapick

16. That went in fairly quickly today for me. Favourite was MARBLES.

    Theme… what theme?

17. Also liked the clue for DISINTER , with the positioning of Bury first word, appropriately capitalised, misdirecting.
    Bury’s opposite was a neat definition.

18. Paul @9… the capital W for wood is an attempt at misdirection referring possibly to Tiger Woods or Wood as in golf club given the surface of the clue. Maybe Jonathan Crowther would say that it’s just about acceptable if he saw it!!!

19. Paul@9. Ronnie WOOD?

20. or as paddymelon says…. 🙂

21. I’ll add Irish band ASH or Wishbone for those of a certain vintage (most of us I suspect) 🙂

22. I got everything except Candida, which I knew only as a yeast infection, not a play. Take what you will from that about my education.

23. AlanC @10 – but “you can’t trust a SPECIAL like the old-time coppers when you can’t find your way home,'” as Marie Lloyd sang.

24. Never get themes! TBH never look for them. It would’ve speeded up completion no end if I had. For those unaware, and I think someone has listed it above, Stray were a 70s rock band so there’s no missing Cats! And I think Brummie has unearthed the best ever yet to be used bandname in The Claypit Marbles. (I await their “Hammy Decor” debut on the radio…)

25. SOHO is pure GK isn’t it? Don’t see anything cryptic in it.

26. As usual with bands , almost anything can be one, and I’ve never heard of MARBLES, SOHO or MNEMONICS (my loss, I expect). Saw the theme just in time for it to help get CLASH, though this was a fairly straightforward solve anyway.

27. Thanks, Brummie, very enjoyable. Particularly liked ANON. Mostly plain sailing except I spent far too long staring at R_D wondering what it could possibly be, before the penny finally dropped.

    And thanks, Loonapick, for pointing out the theme, which I completely missed – despite the fact that I got MADNESS from the fact that the band were known as the Nutty Boys. Doh!

28. Jacob@22. Same. I couldn’t get anything with 4 letters that would indicate the yeast infection, either human or animal. Know it from a woman’s perspective, but it’s also a real threat for our koala population.
    https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/589062#:~:text=Professor%20Timms%20said%20the%20research,the%20processes%20of%20gene%20decay.

29. William @25 – I suppose it’s kind of cryptic if you don’t know that’s why Soho is so named.

30. Lupin Decor are a Belgian ambient punk collective

31. As is usually the case with me, I couldn’t see the wood for the trees, and didn’t spot the glaringly obvious theme until I was scratching my head about the provenance of MADNESS, with over half the grid already filled in. Thereon the other bands got assembled in place. Last clue in the nondescript ANON…

32. This seemed to me relatively transparent for a Brummie, so I’m happy to say I sailed through it. Even 23, which shouted out ‘hidden clue’, suggested the unknown DAGOBA as the most likely solution, before any crossers. Of course the only theme I spotted was C-CLINTON 🙂

    Clever to have incorporated so many band names, although a) there are a lot to choose from, and b) they are often composed of ‘ordinary’ words, so it is one of the most promising themes to select.

    Paul @9 & TimC @18: The (arbitrary!) Ximenean convention is that nouns can be capitalised to misdirect, but proper nouns cannot be given a lower case initial.

    DIPHENYL is an old name for what is now more properly called biphenyl – perhaps somewhat familiar as the basis of polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) of unhappy memory.

    Thanks to S&B

33. I checked a track of Dagoba and liked it.
    Nice playlist, Brum.
    Hope there isnt a band called the Diphenyls!

34. Thanks for the blog, saw the theme for once and loved it which is very unusual for me. So AlanC was Brummie all along , he has kept that very quiet.
    Thanks for all the extra bands from everyone, glad to say I missed Coldplay, the students have a great name for those type of bands, they call it bed-wetting music.
    The two obscure words were clued very fairly. DISINTER my favourite, I agree with PDM about the well hidden capital.

35. Yes, Brummie/AlanC certainly managed to squeeze in a lot of familiar faces. Nice move, man.

    I got the CREAM early, like a stray cat perhaps – that opened the doors and then everything came in a rush.

    (I think loonapick maybe included some charlatans, in excess of the intended (c)anon.)

    Ta Brummie and loonapick, and grateful the hammy wasn’t whammy.

36. [Roz & eb: it was only a matter of time]

37. I take The Pretenders to be based in Britain rather than a British band. I don’t believe Chrissie Hynde ever acquired British citizenship ( b Akron Ohio ) although she has been UK for years and years ( Y & Y another band ! / pun definitely intended ) after writing for the NME in the seventies. My favourite mnemonic is Many Vegetarians Eat Mouldy Jam Sandwiches Under New Potatoes. Leave you guys to work out the sequence.

    Thanks loonapick and Brummie

38. My Very Easy Method Just Speeds Up Naming Planets

    AlanC you were just so far ahead of your time and now the world has finally caught up.

39. Tough but enjoyable. Rather Pasqualian – I learnt quite a few new words today.

    Solved NE corner last.

    Liked ANON, IN CONTROL, PRIMAL, HAMMY.

    New: SOHO = hunting cry; SPECIAL = constable; TENDER = boat; DAGOBA; DIPHENYL.

    I could not parse 18ac RED.

    Thanks, both.

    * I did not see the theme until I saw a hint about it in the Guardian blog. I’m not a fan of any of those bands except for Cream and The Pretenders.

40. re. 2d
    At the beginning of the Troubles in NI the RUC was backed up by a band of thugs known as the B Specials – lovely people!

41. I found this to be a breeze, and was completely unaware of the theme. SOHO as a hunting cry was unknown to me, but the 4-letter part of central London wasn’t too hard. It did seem that Brummie was hurrying through the setting, with the repeated Clintons, colleges and circas.
    Oh, and I’d never heard of a DAGOBA but the clue was very straightforward, so no complaint there. I reckon there were a good number of neat, well-constructed clues: MARBLES, HAMMY, CREAM, PRETENDERS, et al. Jolly good.

42. [Roz, Ten Years After]

43. Miss Venus eats Ma’s jam served under no pretences (thanks Mr McInerny, science master; yours is neat Roz … also from a teacher?).
    What a spectrum, from Pretenders and Cream across the decades to Blur, Clash and Primal Munch, plus all the others that you young aficianados know. Lotsa fun, ta Bnl.

44. I had a cursory glance for a theme, but still missed it! Good setting to get all the bands in there.

    I liked MADNESS for the ‘nutty quality’ although some might object and PRETENDERS for ‘before getting on boats’.

    Thanks Brummie and loonapick.

45. Relatively accessible for a Brummie, I thought. I got through it in one sitting, albeit a leisurely one. The theme definitely helped for a change (i.e. I spotted it before I’d finished)

    I had noticed the unfortunate repetition of Clinton and C=college and do wonder if there weren’t ways around those. But a tiny comment in a very enjoyable puzzle. Liked: HAMMY, MARBLES, ENSUE, DECOR and MNEMONICS.

    Cheers both!

46. [ Grant@43 , from Sprog1 so almost certainly her teacher was the source.
    Also – Rabbits Mate In Very Unusual eXotic Gardens ]

47. [My favourite MNEMONIC is:
    Now I – even I would celebrate
    In rhymes unapt the great
    Immortal Syracusan, rivaled nevermore,
    Who in his wondrous lore,
    Passed on before,
    Left men his guidance
    How to circles mensurate 🙂 ]

48. There’s been at least two bands called “Stray” – both heavy rock, one UK early 70’s, one US 80’s/90’s.

49. I felt there had to be some arcane significance in the two Clintons. Band members/individuals in the clues and bands in the answers???

50. I didn’t think DIPHENYL was particularly obscure, though that’s probably because at my age I have a very well stocked medicine cabinet. But my agw did stop me seeing the theme – which was more my son’s taste, for the most part.

    Many thanks to Brummie and loonapick for an enjoyab;e puzzle and comprehensivr blog.

51. Petert @49 – I did idly wonder if George Clinton was going to become relevant, but apparently not…

52. Thanks both – a nice entertainment even without spotting the theme (as usual).

    Donning my pedant’s cap (reluctantly) (it’s too small for my head and doesn’t suit me) (makes me look like a bit of a dork) – in a maximum break in snooker the black will be potted more often than a red.

53. Glad I didn’t look for a theme, I’d never have found this one.

    DAGOBA was a jorum, but easy to spot. Looking it up I did find that it’s also a band.

    There are cricket references I sometimes get, such as “leg” = “on,” but snooker as in 18a will always be beyond me.

    Widdersbel@29 Why is Soho so named? (The one in New York is SOuth of HOuston Street., pronounced How-ston, not Hew-ston.)

    Roz@46 what is that list for? Gervase@47 who the hell …

    The only mnemonic I can reliably remember is HOMES for the Great Lakes.

    Thanks, Brummie and loonapick.

54. Reflecting on the theme, it occurs to me that Brummie could have set a similar puzzle utilising famous Birmingham bands. Such as Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, The Move, The Moody Blues, and more recently Swim Deep. To name just a few from a rich vein of Brummie talent…

55. Another missing theme but very happy to have finished in one go as a result.
    Don’t understand Alphapapa @52’s point. The clue says often. And for the vast majority of us the red will be potted fat more often than any other colour

56. Valentine @53: the one I quoted makes remembering it as easy as pi 🙂

57. Gervase@56 Yikes!

    Then there’s “On old Olympus’s towering top a Finn and German viewd a hop.”

58. Copmus@33: no Diphenyls. Are you thinking of the Divinyls?

59. Alphalpha @52 – to be equally pedantic, the maximum break is a rare event, so over the course of a match/tournament, red will definitely be potted more than black. Anyway, the clue said “often”.

60. I struggled with entering Dagoba, simpy because it’s so close to Dagobah – the planet Luke Skywalker goes to to train with Yoda, in Star Wars. I’m guessing they were named after it.

61. Loonapick@59: I’m squirming here because of course you’re right (as is TC@55). It was the ‘most often’ that triggered me.

    I’m tempted to argue that ‘It’s often potted’ doesn’t necessarily identify the ‘red’ uniquely as some other colour must perforce be potted more often than any individual ‘red’ in the course of a snooker frame – but that game is hardly worth the candle. In fairness the clue works as intended and the comprehensive and very much appreciated blog explains why.

62. Oh well! Pleased with myself on a completed grid, to find our blogger has called it ‘very straightforward’. It probably is, but it does not dull my achievement.
    A few parsings to check, thanks both.

63. HoofItYouDonkey – the term “straightforward” is of course relative to one’s experience. I’ve been solving cryptics for more than 40 years, so it was straightforward in the context of that experience. When I was starting out, I’d have been happy to get a few clues.

64. Loonapick @63 – Totally understand, I assure you no offence was taken, or meant! Thanks to all the bloggers for your hard work.
    I would love to volunteer as a blogger but I would imagine that the first prerequisite is the ability to solve the puzzle, so that rules me out!

65. Alphalpha @61: A red ball exists to be potted. That is it’s raison d’etre. Complaining that other balls might get potted “more often” in any given frame seems needlessly picky. (Especially since, some balls may never get potted in a frame, but most reds will). But the clue never specified “more often” just often anyway.

    Regardless unless when you watch snooker you are tracking each red ball on its journey around the table I’d suggest you’re being deliberately awkward.

    In snooker “red” means any red ball.

66. First two in were 1d and 2d so I saw the theme immediately which helped immensely. I agree it was (for an old hand solver) straightforward. But a very pleasant diversion.

    MADNESS and PRODIGY were my favourites.

    Thanks Brummie and loonapick

67. Thanks Brummie. When I was tipped off by the Guardian blog that there was a theme I immediately saw it but I only found 8 bands. I found this quick going by Brummie standards but no less clever with clues like LUPIN, RECONDITE (I must remember to use that word when commenting on select setters), DECOR, ON THE RADIO, and PRIMAL. Thanks loonapick for the blog.

68. [HoofItYouDonkey @64: You could blog any crossword in the Guardian or the Indy simply by revealing what you don’t know and working out the parsing. The FT is a different animal, however; there is no reveal feature. I don’t envy bloggers who have have to solve RECONDITE setters like Io or Monk.]

69. Ronald@54: Spencer Davis Group always warrant a mention 🙂

70. “You can’t trust the specials like the old time coppers when you can’t find your way home”.

    Leigh & Collins, 1919, popularized by Marie Lloyd.

71. The theme was not looked for or noticed by me but found answers going in readily anyway. Actually did think of band when entering BLUR.
    Thanks both

72. Enjoyed both the theme (spotted immediately) & the puzzle. Good fun.
    Thanks both

73. Just discovered this blog – have been doing guardian cryptic crosswords since the pandemic (I was a beginner back then) but even now like to check one or two I can’t see parse. This blog is perfect. Thank you

74. Can someone give me an example of using “was to be found” instead of “lay” in a sentence? I am feeling particularly clueless today.

    Bingy @30 gets the prize for the day’s most priceless observation: “Lupin Decor are a Belgian ambient punk collective.”

75. The village was to be found to the north of the town versus the village lay north of the town?

76. Shanne @75: I think you have convinced me. I tend to use “laid” as the past tense of lie, so I would say “the village laid north of the town” in your example. Is there any distinction in the lay/laid usage?

77. Perhaps I am confused: laid may be more common as the past tense of the transitive present tense “lay” as in “he laid the table”. So “lay” is past tense when intransitive and present tense when transitive.

78. AT@76 and 77 To expand a bit, “laid” is never the past tense of “lie.” The past tense of “lie” is always “lay.” (Yesterday I lay in bed till ten.) “Laid” is the past tense of “lay”. (I always laid the table when I was a child.) That’s a British usage, since in the US we set the table.

79. Andrew @77,
    Isn’t it that we’re dealing with two different verbs?
    Lie, past tense lay = to exist, as in ” the answer lay/was to be found in… the way the Romans built roads.”
    Lay, past tense laid = to set, as in “he laid the table for Thanksgiving last Tuesday”

80. Sorry, Valentine. We crossed.

81. PS, Thanks for the puzzle and blog, Brummie & loonapick.
    All the snooker talk above reminded me of one of my favourite Not the Nine O’clock News sketches in which Mel Smith plays a snooker referee:
    [Player pots red]
    “One”
    [Player pots black. Smith retrieves, cleans and replaces the ball with bored expression]
    “Another one”.
    I’m sure it’ll be on YouTube somewhere.

82. Thanks Shanne & Valentine & Phito Nelly @75 & @78 & @79: I feel so much less stupid now

83. Thanks loonapick and Brummie. Very much enjoyed today, only falling 3 short.

    Can I just check (if anyone is still around!) a technical Q re 9a. I had thought ‘upset’ = an anagrind or a reversal in a down clue. I hadn’t thought it was a reversal indicator in an across clue – is this common?

84. Valentine @53 – Soho in London supposedly gets its name from the hunting cry. Possibly not entirely true, but who knows? But if you know that “fact”, you might not consider the clue very cryptic, as per William’s comment @25.

    Anyway, the area has been called Soho since the 17th century, so slightly predates the New York one.

85. Stuart @83. I thought of NIL (the ‘duck’) being ‘upset’ by standing it on its head and then letting it flop over so that it was reversed. There may be other ways, but you are probably right that it’s more often used in down clues, or as an anagrind.

    [As pointed out by many, including AlanC @8 and gladys @26, and frequently in previous crosswords on this site (including Bingy @ 30 with LUPIN DECOR), almost anything can be the name of a band, so obviously I didn’t spot the theme and if I had I’m sure it wouldn’t have helped me solve the puzzle. Which was on the easy side for me; so much so that I solved it on the train back from Huddersfield after more than just a couple of beers.]

    [Thanks to essexboy @35 for “Nice move, man“, which I guess will have been over most people’s heads. (These constitute some of the least google-able band names; IF is another one.) Following the death of Nik Turner, recently reported in The Guardian, perhaps there’ll be some clues in future leading to HAWK and WIND.]

86. [Cheers sh @85, I knew someone would notice 🙂 No one’s picked up on The Nice and The Move though, let alone INXS.]

87. I liked PRETENDERS as a reference to Bonnie Prince Charlie, the Young Pretender. I don’t know if he was ever crowned but he did get on a boat to Skye.

88. Very enjoyable. I never remember to look for a theme but that is no disadvantage with Brummie because his logical parsing is so engaging in itself that you don’t have time to look at the bigger picture. To find that there was an obvious musical theme as well made it even more enjoyable, but it just goes to show how blinkered I can be that as a picker for more than 50 years I was completely oblivious to it.

89. [other band names that are hard to duckduck (or whatever your preferred search engine may be):

    Isotope
    Utopia
    Bauhaus
    Embryo
    Fashion
    Tourists]

90. Thanks Loonapick and Brummie ! I remembered at the beginning that Brummie often has a theme, and then got so involved in filling the grid that I promptly forgot until I read the blog ! Easy-ish completion though. DeeGee@24, STRAY were indeed a 70s band and still perform today, led now as then by the seemingly ageless Del Bromham. Not that I was ever a fan, but they come easily to mind because an acquaintance is now their bass player.

91. Loved loved loved it – especially spotting all the band names. As for some others, it was 1d BLUR that tipped me off. Finding CREAM at 13d was a real highlight, but what a great trip down musical memory lane with lots of these bands. A clever puzzle – thanks to Brummie – and also well done to loonapick on a very helpful blog, explaining a couple of things I didn’t understand at the time.

92. Late thanks loonapick, everyone who contributed mnemonics, the distinction between lay and laid, and band puns ( I had no trouble spotting yours essexboy and reminds me to get hold of some Man). Stuart@83 I agree on normal use of upset but suppose reversals are a subset of anagrams albeit a very orderly one so I think it’s ok. Welcome CalMac and thanks of course for the ride Brummie.

93. Sorry MrEssexboy@86, I did notice but I got side-tracked by mnemonics and never came back later, and you missed out the The.

94. [Roz, I had four the’s, hence two the the’s 🙂 Shame I couldn’t smuggle a budgie.]

95. I knew someone who played in Budgie, and Magna Carta. But he lived in some interesting flat shares.

96. Thanks TimC@ 18, paddymelon@19 and Gervase@32; I’ve learnt a new rule!

97. Sorry to be the party pooper, but the bass player of The Clash was Paul Simonon. Anyway – Simply Red, but no Buzzcocks? Outrageous!

98. [Eb@94 it could be a reverse hidden clue – (The)Nice(The)Move

99. Roz @98 – sweet!

100. essexboy @99. Who?

101. biggus56 @97 – good spot! pity though …

102. SOHO had a minor hit in the early 90s with Hippy Chick, sampling The Smiths’ How Soon Is Now. I doubt that’s part of the theme since nobody remembers them!

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