Azed 2633

15 comments on “Azed 2633”

1. Thanks Andrew.
   24ac “a crisp summing up of the evidence” for brief?
   PLANTAR I got from the American for verruca.
   Thanks as ever to Azed.

2. For BRIE, one of the definitions in Chambers for crisp is “(of wording) neat, terse…” which I think fits better than the ‘(of pastry) short’ and ties in with Gonzo’s quote @1. The short in (shortcrust) pastry is more to do with either a lack of flour compared to fat or the smallness of the pastry crumbs depending on who you read.

3. Thanks for the blog, the top left needed thought, not just unusual words but rarer meanings of common words like mother.
   GIROLLE not in my Chambers 93, I was surprised as I do know the name.
   PARTIE CARREE is one of the headings for a page in my Chambers so fortunately I have read it many times before.
   PLANTAR warts are verrucas so seen that on the cream the sprogs used to have.
   SACKFUL is clearly indirect and deserves a severe Paddington stare, unusual for Azed.

4. [TIM@2 , my views for short. It is more the type of fat, lard makes the “shortest” pastry . Also the amount of water, for the shortest use the minimum water that will just about let you roll it. ]

5. I’m familiar with the word CACK, but my C98 only mentions it as a source for the expression cack-handed – and gives a more robust definition than ‘nonsense’! I agree with Roz@3 about the indirect anagram for SACKFUL and the surface meaning of the clue doesn’t quite work, either – something would be poured out ‘from’ or ‘into’, not ‘in’. Just a quibble, though; it was an enjoyable puzzle overall and thanks for the blog.

6. Thanks Azed and Andrew

   24ac: I agree with TimC@2 on this one.

   28ac: I was completely happy with this as consistent with Azed’s previous practice. He set the standard in a clue discussed in the August 1973 Azed slip, having clued MORONIC in an earlier puzzle as
   Stupid, getting what comes before pi wrong (7)
   I agree that we can reasonably take “what comes before pi” as the only letter immediately before pi in the Greek alphabet, to form an anagram of omicron.
   The alternatives rejected by Azed are
   Stupid, getting Greek letter wrong
   This would be an unacceptable indirect anagram. My comment: although there are only three Greek letters whose English names have seven letters, that is still two too many.
   Stupid, getting omicron wrong
   I agree that this would be too easy. It would also have been nonsensical in 1973, but would of course now be topical.

   Let us apply those principles to the clue in the current puzzle. Copper is a chemical element which has its own symbol. It is not asking too much to replace the name of a chemical element by its symbol. Using “small metal flask” would be an unacceptable indirect anagram, and I would be astonished if Azed ever did that. Finally it would look ridiculous to put “poured out in Cu flask”.

   My understanding is that Azed’s more general writings say something to the effect that the letters making up an anagram must either be present in the clue or easily deducible.

7. Hmm….is a precedent from almost 50 years ago still valid? My observations would be: first, the clue doesn’t have to be an anagram. If it doesn’t quite work, maybe try a different approach. Second, ‘small copper’ is not necessarily CU; it could be PC or even AS (the Roman copper coin). Third, as above, the surface here isn’t ideal.
   Nevertheless, the clue didn’t trouble me or spoil my enjoyment of the puzzle, so I don’t feel up in arms about it!

8. MunroMaiden@7 re 28ac:
   First I cited the 1973 case as when Azed set the standard. I agree it would be out of date if there were any reason to think that Azed may have changed his mind on this. My understanding, as indicated in the final paragraph of comment 6, is that he has held to this position, although I cannot give specific references for this.
   Second, PC is an abbreviation and AS a word that could be defined by “copper”. I think that use of either of those would make it an unacceptable indirect anagram by Azed’s standards. Only Cu stands for copper itself.

9. I never claim indirect anagrams are wrong but I do frown at them, I think all the letters should be in the clue. For this one , small copper=CU is also very weak.
   I would estimate that Azed has less than one per year, over 1500 clues, so not part of his normal repertoire.
   The “easily deducible” is the problem , it is so subjective there is no criterion for judging fairness. A classic example.
   Tough form of monster (5) from Ximenes who hated them.

   My own take on them – This provoked resistance (8,7)

10. Pelham Barton@8: If CU stands for copper, rather than being an abbreviation (which I would agree with), what is ‘small’ doing in the clue? I have to agree with Roz@9 that small copper = CU is weak.

    Roz – your clue took me a bit of working out, but was very clever!

11. Roz@9: I think “less than one a year” is probably correct by a substantial margin. “Unusual for Azed” is also certainly true. My point, which I think I have made sufficiently, is that they are not outside Azed’s own rules.

12. I suspect that Azed does not approve of indirect anagrams but very occasionally goes against his better judgement, just speculation of course.

13. Thanks for the blog, Andrew. One tiny point which makes no real difference is in 6d where MM is, I think, not two Monsieurs but one “Messieurs” (given as such in eChambers). It makes the clue slightly better.

14. MunroMaiden@5, how about “at the reception, the champagne was already poured out in the glasses”? Just one small glass (or flask) might get messy though.
    I was willing to accept a common shorthand for copper as a fair construction of the anagrist – a bit more, perhaps, than an abbreviation, but comparable with a NATO alphabet indication. I struggled with the “small”, trying to make it stand for the crossing “S”, and ultimately decided that Azed was being helpful.

15. Roz@12: We can distinguish between the boundaries of what is acceptable and the boundaries of terminology (which in my view are far less important). The 1973 Azed Slip which I referenced earlier begins to set out Azed’s position as to what is acceptable, but also he effectively defines the term “indirect anagram” as only covering the ones that he considers unacceptable. I would agree with you that the term “indirect anagram” most naturally covers anything in which the letters of the answer are not all in the clue. However, I would then allow some indirect anagrams to be acceptable.

    However, there are two recent clues that I actually expected to cause a discussion about indirect anagrams. They did not do so. I was happy with both the following clues – perhaps I was not the only one who preferred not to open the topic.

    The more recent is 11dn in Azed 2631, which read
    Graceful Linda, six, in new guise (11)
    The “six” was a reference to 6dn, and the anagram fodder was “LINDA MEREST”. At the time, we commented on Azed giving a cross-reference from one clue to another , which is also unusual for him. Certainly not all of the letters of the answer to 11dn are in the clue.

    A few weeks before that, we had 24dn in Azed 2627:
    What gallery displays in reproduction of it – see plaque (6)
    The parsing was ART in anagram of ART. Technically, all the letters of the answer are in the clue, but the anagram fodder is not there in any coherent form.

    Before starting to type this comment, I had put a comment in the blog for Azed 2631, and the blogger on that occasion (bridgesong) has responded, including a quotation from Azed’s book. For the last paragraph in comment 6, we can now substitute what Azed actually said, which was
    “The component letters of the anagram, or an unequivocal indication of them [I have reproduced bridgesong’s emphasis], must be given explicitly in the anagram-based clue”.

    I am now going to put a comment in the blog for Azed 2627.

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