Guardian Cryptic 29,010 by Carpathian

71 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 29,010 by Carpathian”

1. A nice challenge with the long answers being virtual write-ins, except SALESMANSHIP, which was my loi. Curiously, two of the answers appeared in Pasquale’s Friday puzzle. The spoonerism was very neat.

   Ta Carpathian & manehi

2. Well, that was easy! I’d finished almost before I’d begun. Very enjoyable, with no obscurities and only one Britishism (OR in 25a — but I’ve assimilated this by now!). I don’t like “bit of” to indicate a first letter (3d & 24a) but I guess I’ll have to live with it.

   Thanks Carpathian & manehi.

3. Sorry, Thursday puzzle.

4. In general use, ring=group is OK; in maths, all rings are groups but not all groups are rings.

5. An enjoyable start to the week. I’m not sure, however, that the French subject pronoun ‘ils’ in 2D can ever mean ‘those’ which would normally be (c)eux or (c)elles.

   Thanks Carpathian and Manehi

6. Pleasant Monday stroll. I liked HABERDASHERS because it’s such an interesting word (etym dub!).

   I didn’t like ‘those French’ = ‘ils’ – this translates as ‘they’, surely; ‘those’ should be ‘ces’ – this held me up briefly.

   Thanks to S&B

7. I didn’t find it as easy as GDU@2 but I did get a fast start with the lower half quickly completed but the top requiring a bit more head scratching. Putting in Gamesmanship at 1 ac didn’t help! I also wasn’t sure if 9ac was Matches which also slowed me down.
   Thanks C and m for today.

8. Larry @5: We crossed. You have given the pronoun forms, I gave the adjective/determiner form

9. I liked the lost ostrich and the Tardis (like too many phone boxes) being used as a convenience. I was expecting LENTILS to end in -CES, but I suppose you can construct contexts where “ils” would be “those” rather than “they”.

10. I had the same thought as others about “ils” in 2 down but Google translate gives it as a third possible after ceux / celles and eux / elles. Thanks to Carpathian and for the blog.

11. Nice easy solve. Some of it reminded me of the 70’s when CULOTTEs were in fashion and 10 cc’s Wall Street SHUFFLE and DREADlock Holiday were out ( I don’t like cricket and there weren’t cricket words today ! / 10 cc’s “Rubber Bullets mentioned by EB very recently ). Also,
    ARCADIA was a GAME on my BBC Microcomputer.

    Not allowed to say a lot at this stage, but one five letter “partial” towards the right hand side came up in Saturday’s prize puzzle, clued completely differently.

    Funnily enough, there is a HABERDASHERS’ COLLEGE in New Cross, London and HABERDASHERS’ schools in Elstree. They all take DONATIONS and all have noted CHOIRs as well as famous alumni.

    Thank you Capathian and manehi.

12. Another trying to put CES on the end of LENTILS, which made it my last in with a bung and shrug. SALESMANSHIP took me most of the crossers to see, but Carpathian’s usually precise cluing meant I built it piecemeal.

    This was a lovely Monday puzzle that I solved faster than the Quiptic, it felt as if they were in the wrong slots.

    Thank you to Carpathian and manehi.

13. Nothing to get too excited about but felt some of the surfaces a tad dodgy. “Prompted college to replace verb in request by director” for instance.

    Nice spot, Flea @11.

    Many thanks, both.

14. From the Internet ( general ) and also backed up by an online etymology dictionary (etymoline.com) :

    Haberdasher derives via Middle English from hapertas, an Anglo-French word for a kind of cloth, as does the obsolete noun haberdash, which once meant petty merchandise or small wares.

15. Pretty straight-forward, although I couldn’t parse 3d or 24a.

16. SueB @10, thanks for pointing out the Google Translate suggestions for ‘those’ – it’s often useful if you want a quick translation that’s about 90% accurate, but I wouldn’t rely on it too heavily, and today I’m really struggling to think of a context where ‘those’ could be translated as ‘ils’.

    It’s a weird page altogether – it has ils/elles, but fails to mention ces, ceux-ci, ceux-là, celles-ci, celles-là – all of which would be valid.

    Generally I find WordReference much more reliable.

    Otherwise, good Monday puzzle – I’m another who liked the tardis. Thanks C & m.

17. Fun puzzle.

    Liked CHOIR, ILL WILL, SCREWDRIVERS, TEL AVIV, OBVIOUS, ARCADIA.

    As with Gervase@6, I like the word HABERDASHERS.

    Thanks, both.

18. Slightly chewier than one expects on a Monday, I thought; but Carpathian is as reliable as ever and it came together steadily, with some attractive images along the way. I was amused by the thought of the confused ostrich, still more so by the thought of the Tardis being used as a convenience. There are times, admittedly, when having the Englishman’s customary understanding of French (i.e. sub-O level) is useful (2d).
    Haberdashery is a word I always want to pronounce as had-a-bashery, which I don’t think would technically be a Spoonerism but which I feel ought to be a legitimate cluing device.
    Ah well, nothing for it but to face a cold, wet and miserable Monday.
    Thanks to Carpathian and manehi

19. essexboy @16: Me too, re ‘ils’ = ‘those’. Can’t see how one could replace the other.

    WordReference is pure gold. Personally, I only use Google Translate to check the more straightforward things like gender, etc.

20. Another quiblet…not keen on devices like bit of dessert for D; or bit of suspicious for S.

21. “ils” for “those”. I’m confident that Carpathian won’t have used Google translate as a reference tool. If anyone other than Google does find a direct equivalence please share it. Crossword setters really mustn’t add Google translate to their armoury: it would be bad news for solvers.

22. I can’t imagine a more friendly grid than this, even if the difficulty level was a notch above a Vulcan Monday puzzle, I thought. Thought PUFFIER rather a clumsy clue, but liked the smoothness of OUTDOOR…

23. I suppose 2D could read as”those French” who would be referred to as ils if they did anything. To me ils is definitely not ‘ those’ in French, it means ‘they’ .
    Also trying to imagine someone wearing one culotte?
    Otherwise enjoyed this .

24. Chardonneret @23: The French would say une culotte. WordRef gives the example; Elle porte une culotte de la même couleur que son soutien-gorge.

25. No, I can’t make sense of ils=those either. Oddly enough, I was wandering round the haberdashery department in John Lewis a few days ago (there seems to be a world shortage of dressmakers’ pins for some reason) and thought then what a curious word it was.

    Bit of = first letter seems to be here to stay.

26. I like linguee, which gives:
    “those” = ces, ceux, celles, ceux-la, celles-la
    and “ils” = they
    Et c’est tout!

27. Re the ils debate, those can be either a demonstrative adjective e.g. “Those objects are …” or a demonstrative pronoun e.g. “Those who rely on Google translate…”

    Wouldn’t te latter usage be ils or elles in French? At least I think that’s what I recall from long ago French lessons. Happy to be corrected if someone knows better.

28. I also found this quite easy, which was a relief, having failed at a couple late last week, but also queried ‘ils’ as discussed above. Many thanks to both.

29. Much, much easier than the Q. This seems to be a recurring theme.

30. Good easy crossword – nothing much to add to others’ comments except I agree with Chardonneret@23 on both points:
    – ‘ILS’ can be justified as suggested. Also, at least in English, ‘they’ can mean ‘those’ in speech, if accompanied by gesture and/or emphasis to indicate which set of possible ‘they’ is meant; possibly in text too, e.g. a child’s picture book with two images of apples – ‘they/those are red’, ‘they/those are green’ – but I accept it’s a bit of a stretch.
    – ‘CULOTTEs’ is surely plural in English, even if not in French.
    Thanks Carpathian and manehi.

31. I can’t help pronouncing HABADASHERY in my head as ‘Habba da sherry’ 😉

32. Blah @27, “Those who rely on google…” would be “Ceux qui…”

33. Blah/beaulieu – unfortunately the examples don’t work in French.

    Those who rely on = Ceux qui comptent sur / Celles qui comptent sur
    Those are green = Ceux-là sont verts / Celles-là sont vertes

    ‘Ils’ doesn’t work in either case.

34. [Sorry, I crossed with crosser!]

35. Blah @27: I don’t think ‘Those who..’ would ever be translated as ‘Ils qui…’. ‘Ceux qui,,’, surely?

36. And I crossed with everyone!

37. It’s OK, essexboy, your explantion was much more comprehensive!

38. Good, I came here to grumble about “ils” and feel justified to find myself in the company of grumbles.

39. [Flea @14: Wiktionary, not normally equivocal about these things, suggests ‘hapertas’ only as a possible etymology for HABERDASHER, though it does seem highly plausible. Anyone have access to the OED?]

40. Standard Monday fare. Only half a cup of tea and the grid finished!

    Thanks Carpathian and manehi

41. I think Chardonneret @23 has it spot on – it works fine if you read French as a noun, ie “those French [people]”.

    Splendid puzzle as ever, thanks, Carpathian. And thanks for the blog, manehi.

42. Gervase @39; OED: Etymology: Has the form of a derivative of haberdash n., or of the Anglo-Norman hapertas (quasi *hapertassier, *haberdassier); but the actual nature of the relationship between these words is left doubtful by their relative dates, as well as by the undetermined relation in which haberdash and hapertas stand to each other.

43. Gervase@39 OED says “presumably” from “hapertas” and originally a dealer in small wares especially hats.

44. Good Monday fare.

    Even if ‘ils’ can be used for ‘those’, it must be pretty obscure. I tried the translation of those French… and the interweb came up with ces français… And, yes, I spent a while trying to fit ‘ces’ into the answer somehow. I liked the STAPLE GUN for the wordplay and LATRINE for the Tardis convenience.

    Thanks Carpathian and manehi.

45. And OED for haberdash: Etymology: apparently = Anglo-Norman hapertas , of unknown origin, perhaps the name of a fabric, which occurs in an Anglo-Norman customs list of imported peltry, furs, and fabrics, where a parallel and nearly contemporary list has haberdassherie . But the English word may, from its date and sense, be a back-formation < haberdasher n., and hapertas may be only a bad Anglo-Norman spelling of it.

46. Robi: Thanks for explaining the dubiety. And ‘peltry’ is another lovely word 🙂

47. As a general rule French subject pronouns have emphatic forms, and as a result of this you can’t qualify or even stress the words je, tu, il, on, ils. For stressing or qualifying you have to add, or substitute, moi, toi, lui, soi, eux respectively. Shirley Bassey’s “I, I who have nothing” was rendered in French as “Moi, je ne suis rien”. It so happens that the emphatic forms of the other subject pronouns (elle, nous, vous, elles) are identical to the unstressed form (so a multi-tracked Sylvie Vartan might have sung “Nous, nous ne sommes rien”), but I guess a crossword clue that tried to render “those French” as “elles” would still raise eyebrows.

48. Widdersbel @23 : but then it would need to be “those French (in French)”. That’s a bit of a stretch for a crossword in English – are we meant to imagine someone from, say, the French-speaking part of Switzerland referring to other people across the border? If anyone can provide a sentence in which “they” can be directly replaced by “those”, I may be appeased, but, for now, I think ‘ils’ is plain wrong.

49. JorgeRamon @48 – yes, and even then the French-speaking Swiss would say ‘eux’ when gesturing towards ‘those French’ across the border, not ‘ils’ by itself (see King John’s admirable explanation @47).

50. I’ve long been used to OR, so the Britishism to me is haberdashers. I think of it as someone who sells male accessories — hats, ties, etc. –though apparently the American usage is actually a seller of male clothing. British haberdashery — pins, zippers and so one — is what I would call “notions,” miscellaneous bits you need for a sewing project.

    Robi@45 “Peltry” is a word I’ve never seen before. There can’t be many people who need to use it.

    I’m glad the “ils” question has been thoroughly thrashed and I don’t have to get into it.

    Thanks, Carpathian and manehi.

51. The confused ostrich losing its way was fun. But as William says @13, some of the other surfaces were a bit strange, to put it mildly – Colleague of Spooner’s strengthened cry for example.

    As for “bit of dessert” = D etc, this is a convention that seems to go back to the dawn of crossword time. But as Brian Greer (Brendan) says in his book “How to do the Times Crossword”:

    The convention found in some other crosswords that “bit of”, or similar expressions, points to the first letter of a word has always struck me as illogical. I see no strong reason why “bit of cheese” is C rather than H, E or S – or indeed HE.

    Personally I’m a fan of crossword traditions and conventions when they work and make sense, but I’d be happy to see the back of this one.

52. Valentine @50: With respect, the usage of haberdashery to mean menswear is an Americanism (and by extension Canadianism) All other English speaking nations use it to mean sewing paraphernalia 🙂

53. I have come to accept that when I think a setter is wrong about some usage, I am the one who is usually wrong. However, given the number of people who are either challenging ‘ils’ or twisting themselves into pretzels trying to justify it, I can more confidently say, Me too.

    Thank you LordJim@51 for the bit about bit of. Again, me too.

54. BOGOF earworm today – take your pick from Paul Simon’s The OBVIOUS Child or Aztec Camera’s OBLIVIOUS

    Much as I’m drawn to the idea of “those french” = “ils” I suspect it’s connerie rather than craftiness afoot

    Cheers C&M

55. Thanks for the blog , very suitable Monday puzzle, a good variety of clues and techniques, only7D required a frown. I did wonder about warden instead of warder, but Chambers does give cover .
    AlanC starting the week at Number 1 yet again , I make that 15-10 to me.

56. I enjoyed that, easier than the Quiptic again too.

    Tout a déjà été dit sur « ILS » 🙂

    Liked CHOIR, LATRINE and BEDFELLOW.

    Cheers both.

57. Fun, fast first puzzle of the week.

    Loved SCREWDRIVERS and BEDFELLOW.

    Thanks Carpathian!

58. Thanks Carpathian for a pleasant Monday crossword. LENTILS took awhile for the reasons already stated and my LOI, SPONGE BAG was a new term for me. I ticked GODLIKE, OUTDOOR, OBVIOUS, and DREAD as my top picks. Thanks manehi for the blog.

59. On holiday, so will be brief.
    Thanks C and M…
    Great to be reminded of the completely brilliant Stephen Nolan film in 8a…

60. Very clever HYD@59 , pretending to forget it is Christopher Nolan . You need a polaroid with his name on.

61. I found the top half of this puzzle harder than the top half of Anto’s Quiptic, and the bottom half easier, so clearly both puzzles were wrongly placed in part.

    Thanks Carpathian for the excellent puzzle, and manehi for the blog.

62. Very nice Monday…but like others “bit of” doesn’t work for me
    Thanks both

63. Monday may be the starting point of a week’s worth of crossword puzzles but generally speaking the week starts on Sunday. I agree with Cardonneret @23 et seq: culottes — like trousers and underpants and knickers — house both legs and are therefore always plural in English.

64. We were surprised when 1D (embarrassing) turned out not to start with I or A, because we thought there was a vague rule that the anagram fodder had to appear in the clue. That is, the actual letter(s), not one-I.

65. A satisfying quick solve for me, with LENTILS my LOI after a lot of trying to jam “ces” in, as others. Glad to see I’m not the only one who got stuck on that.

    Thanks manehi and Carpathian!

66. Ignorance is a wonderful thing. I happily put in LENTILS, thinking ‘so that’s what the French for those is’. I concur with most that this was both fun and ETTQ (shouldn’t we have that acronym as it is so common?). Thanks, manehi and Carpathian.

67. pianola @64. Like all crossword rules, there is only a vague idea that there is a rule about anagram fodder being apparent in the clue. In fact there is no rule – it’s just a reasonable expectation on the part of the solvers that the setter will be fair. The only thing (slightly) unfair about ‘one’ is that it can be either I or A. Seems all right to me.

68. I thought that 10D was actually cleverer than was possibly intended. A Warden is a term for the chief prison officer and is underlings are Prison officers – also know as Screws so the chief or Warden is in charge of all the screws and hence a screw-driver
    Or is it just me?

69. Vary nice Monday puzzle for us newbies. I always like a Spoonerism and 14a was suitably groany when the penny dropped. Thanks Carpathian and Manehi.

70. This the second time we’ve had SCREWDRIVER this week. It was in last Thursday’s cryptic by Pascale. Also clued as “drink”!

71. TOPsie @68 The clue wouldn’t work if you interpreted it like that because “going to clubs” would be superfluous.

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