Guardian Prize No 29,081 by Paul

69 comments on “Guardian Prize No 29,081 by Paul”

1. I thought this was Paul at his most playful and punnish. Expecting some liberties helped with the solving, even the initially intimidating circularity of 10, 27, 17 and 3. I also contemplated CILLA BLACK, but it was only thinking it didn’t quite fit, even being stretchy, that got me to CELIA & ALICE.

   I agree with bridgesong’s reservations about TEA COSY and fUN ITEm, but it didn’t spoil the enjoyment.

   Thanks P&B

2. Thanks, bridgesong. You found this tougher than I did: BANANARAMA opened 10 27 up for me, I knew THE BANGLES, perhaps not to my credit, and I was just a bit disappointed that no other GIRL BANDs were namechecked in the end, besides the Spice Girls in the clue for 14a. If Paul had been able to fit them in, All Saints would have been fun – “1 11 10 27 (3, 6) “.

3. Thanks, Paul and bridgesong!

   Liked DOG FOOD, MANICURED, UNITE, CELIA, OVEREAT, INCESSANT and LIBEL.
   Found the puzzle quite challenging, but enjoyed solving it.

4. I love Paul’s trickiness, but I have lived all of my life in Australia and have never heard label pronounced as libel. Perhaps that is because I come from around Adelaide, which we do not call Adelide.

5. Thanks bridgesong. Too hard for me to be enjoyable and, completely ignorant of the band scene, I only got there through sheer doggedness and courtesy of Google which leaves me disappointed. Put me down as another who flirted with Cilla Black in 3 and 17. I’m not keen on circularity of clues, I’d prefer each to stand on its merits.

6. The LABEL/LIBEL clue annoyed me (maybe Droitwich radio?)
   which lead me to put CILLA instead of CELIA
   Which left a choice of ALICE or BLACK.
   If I had been a bit more lenient about LIBEL I might have noticed
   that CILLA had been already covered and I could have worked back to CELIA
   But a good theme otherwise

7. So much fun doing this crossword. I come from a family of punners and I’m almost sure my Uncle Phil told the shallot joke or at least wished he had.

   Bridgesong, I’m impressed that you took 1 hour 40 minutes. It took me all week, finishing yesterday afternoon, with a sigh of relief. Like you, I had CILLA and it messed up all the associated clues. The clanging that occurred when the pennies finally hit the teatray and they all fell into place, scared the crows.

   GIRL BANDs not being my thing I had to check what THE BANGLES meant only to find I’d walked like an Egyptian on many a Manic Monday, I just didn’t know who supplied the music.
   I thought DOG FOOD was a standout clue. I was really pleased with myself for getting it fairly easily. SET MENU on the other hand, was my LOI. Just couldn’t see it, no matter how I looked. Felt rather foolish when I finally got it. Quite straightforward, really. Sigh!

   Paul, thank you once again for a super puzzle and thanks to Bridgesong for clarifying the bits I couldn’t parse fully.

8. Like Valesman and copmus (and I guess, other Aussies), I initially took umbrage at the label/LIBEL clue, but then I remembered that Paul had the Queen saying “Hind” for hound earlier in the week, so I didn’t feel quite so maligned. I know no one who would speak like that, except in jest! And it was such a fun puzzle I excused Paul his little tease!

9. Like Biggles A @ 5 I found this a bit of a slog.

   The circularity of 10, 27, 17, 3 took me a long time to work out and even once I’d finished there were around 6 I couldn’t fully parse.

   Loved DOG FOOD

   Thanks Paul and Bridgesong

10. Fortunately I had just enough solutions (three I think) to make me feel like it was worth it to keep going after the first pass. But I also found this whole grid tough and lost the enjoyment of some clues due to taking so long to complete it. I didn’t mind the 10,27 GIRL BAND theme though. Favourite was the ALICE band at 17a, for that little play on the hair accessory. Thanks to Paul and bridgesong.

11. I had CILLA BLACK instead of CELIA ALICE. I found this extremely difficult to get into with the self referencing core clues and did it by solving BANANARAMA. THE BANGLES took a long as I did not remember them and was thinking that a native of Thebes would be a Thebian. I had to have a break and then almost everything fell into place. I wasn’t happy with CILLA BLACK, but could not fathom what the CELIA clue wanted me to do,

12. SHALLOT
    Annotated Solutions on the Guardian site:
    ’29 shallot ’s your lot (hom)’

    bridgesong! Are the old joke you hinted at in the blog and the breakdown above in sync? What is that joke?

13. I like an excruciating pun (“F in”, “Celia lips”, “That’s shallot”) as much as the next Dad, but having to work them out in reverse is another matter. And I don’t mind clues that refer to other clues, but circular references in a set of clues that form a theme that’s way out of my area of expertise… Well, let’s say I struggled. I did get there; eventually I had enough crossers for 26a – every one of them an ‘A’ – that I thought “good grief, it’s going to be something like Bananarama”, and at that point a number of dominoes started to tumble. Then this all became rather less frustrating, and actually quite satisfying to finish. I did enjoy the puns, once I got the answers, and things like the misleading “university courses”, but I failed to parse OVEREAT, and I’m not quite sure about the clue for ALICE – is ‘another’ both literal and the anagram indicator here? Still, fun in the end, so thanks, Paul, and thanks bridgesong (my solving time was much longer than yours!)

14. A fabulous puzzle and tease for the third and final UK bank holiday weekend of the month. Like Rosella2 @7, this took me until Friday to complete. Being an inveterate punner, it was right up my street: just very hard. Eventually I parsed all except LIBEL. My favourite of favourites was OSCILLATE.

    Not sure I will follow the blog closely this time. There will be differing views and the discussion may itself get too obscure.

    I say huge thanks to Paul for this unique and funny peculiar, funny ha-ha … challenge. I always smiled when the penny dropped, which is the key.

    There were many false turnings to take: including digging out a list of the BFG’s expressions. Wrong Dahl giant! Just great misdirection from the SETTING (across not down) in this instance. Entirely fitting that SHALLOT appears in the bottom RH corner. That’s my lot.

15. In today’s episode of Two Countries Divided by a Common Language:

    (1) In American English, nana means grandma (cf. British nan). I was mystified as to how grandma was an ass, as she had to be for the BANANARAMA clue to work. My dictionary doesn’t even list the British meaning. Learned something new there.

    (2) We pronounce shallot to rhyme with ballot, and I’ve not often heard British people discussing vegetables, so it hadn’t even occurred to me that that wasn’t universal. A friend from over there set me straight when I asked, though.

16. Kva @12:

    Customer: Have you any more onions?

    Greengrocer: That’s shallot!

17. I parsed 16a as (f)UN ITE(m) as well. I think it is an expression that crops up occasionally and I can’t see any other way to arrive at the answer. Took me two days to complete the crossword as I’d never heard of THE BANGLES and I set off in the wrong direction by thinking of names of ancient Egyptian pharaohs. Once I got that clue the NE corner fell into place. In the end, enjoyed it after being twice dismayed, first by the circular clues and then second by the theme when I finally saw it (by way of BANANARAMA who I never realised were a girl band). Groaned when I finally saw LIBEL. Thanks to bridgesong and Paul

18. Thanks for the blog, brilliant puzzle, like SC@2 BANANARAMA helped me a lot, not many words with BAA round the edge and RAM inside. DOG FOOD is very neat and a clever Playtex for “effin” . LEAKAGE and OSCILLATE are superbly constructed, THE BANGLES also plus a nod to Egyptian.
    Minor quibble for TEA COSY , mayba Paul means the temperature is cold for the picnic but the drink is warmer because of ….
    ALICE a little loose, another girl? CELIA another ? easy to get from10,27 =17 especially for someone who still wears Alice bands.

19. Thanks, bridgesong@16.

20. Thanks bridgesong as I never parsed the BANGLES, having heard of Thebes but not knowing where it was. Also thanks KenMac for 19a! Plenty of cheerful groans here but only one real gripe as I used to work with an Elica who would also be a solution to 17a – by also linking to 27a as hinted by Julie and Roz above this admittedly unlikely ambiguity could have been completely avoided. But I thought there were some excellent cunning clues eg 18d and really enjoyed the gradual emergence of solutions, thanks Paul.

21. Thanks Paul and bridgesong
    I thought the “homophones” were particularly awful, and I agree about f(UN TIme. I did like DOG FOOD.
    I’m only posting to include this earworm, form that great group. the Saw Doctors.

22. Mrpenney @15: Chambers gives NANA as “An idiot, fool” but labels it as slang. In my view it is now somewhat dated. The American meaning is also given by means of a cross-reference to NANNY.

23. [fUN ITEm – fat fingers]

24. Having had a good whinge about Paul’s midweek puzzle, thought I’d come here and say I enjoyed this one a lot more.
    Re The Bangles, we also have MANICured, as in Manic Monday.
    MrPenney @15. Nana can also mean grandma in the UK.
    Thanks to Paul and Bridgesong

25. Araucaria produced a themed puzzle on girl bands some thirty years ago, and, although it was greeted with some astonishment at the time, he won almost universal approval for having some interest in popular culture. These days I’m the one out of touch and needed my daughter’s help with THE BANGLES whilst falling into the Cilla Black trap. OSCILLATE eluded me but I greatly enjoyed the rest with LEAKAGE and DOG FOOD standout clues.

26. I’m glad I’m not the only one who took ages on this. I saw THE BANGLES very early, but took a while to parse it to my satisfaction so I could enter it into the grid. This was my way in to solving all the GIRL BANDs.

    I ended up early on with a completed top half, barring the long down clue, and gaps across the bottom half. Several sessions later I checked yesterday to see SETTING, my LOI with a tea tray clanging moment.

    Thank you to Paul and bridgesong.

27. Bridgesong and KVA @ 16. I remember Jimmy Wheeler (a violin-playing comedian from the days of variety) finishing his act with a tune and then telling his audience “and that’s you lot!” Exit.

28. Not being a fan of Paul’s puzzles especially those with interlocked clues, I found it very hard to get started on this. My way of getting into the theme was via 11ac THE BANGLES (Thanks, wikipedia). I’m surprised that I could finish this puzzle.

    I needed to check the parsing of
    29ac SHALLOT – I still do not get the joke…
    3d CELIA
    25d LIBEL – is that supposed to be the way it is thought that an Australian pronounces LABEL? I’m Australian and I found this clue to be weak.

    Thanks, both.

29. @ 27 me… Actually Wheeler finished his act with, “aye aye, that’s yer lot” Exit.

30. Perhaps I was fortunate in (very unusually, for me) spotting the theme early and having very clear memories of BANANARAMA and THE BANGLES, but I didn’t think this was Paul at his most difficult. Actually I thought it was Paul at his best, he is the setter that most consistently makes me laugh. A real pleasure.
    And as for the objection to TEA COSY, with it your drink is warmer than without it.

31. Initially of course very difficult to get into the theme, because 10,27 refers to 17, which refers to 3 and back to 10, with 3 also referring back to 10! But like others I got into it via 26a – a 10 letter word with BAA apparently providing the exterior. All great fun.

    I enjoyed LIBEL which brought a smile, though perhaps it is more of a joke Australian accent than a real one. And there was clever misdirection in 20d where the most obvious Dahl giant is the Big Friendly one – did anyone else try to do something with Imbfg…?

    Many thanks Paul and bridgesong.

32. 23 ac F(ine): is F used for fine anywhere? I couldn’t think of any.

33. Well I found this extremely hard, like untying a complex knot on a shoelace to a pair of shoes that you end up throwing away!

    Fun item, really! I knew exactly what Paul was doing with this clue, but even If you guessed this, you would still be unsure if it was intended?

    There were a lot of tricky clues, often overlapping, making this the most difficult puzzle I have ever done, well not actually, as it was a DNF.

34. Croc@32 F=fine for pencils .

35. LIBEL – ah yes, is this an example of Australian strine? Read about it in books.
    Couldn’t parse UNITE.
    Never heard of the bands, Mr Google came in handy.

    An excellent puzzle, and for once a puzzle worthy of the prize slot.

    Thanks Paul and bridgesong.

36. chargehand@25 and 27!
    Thanks for the info.

37. Thanks Roz but I found F or pencils means Firm.
    But it does mean Fine for ballpoints so I withdraw my query

38. Thank you Paul and bridgesong.

    The Britannica Dictionary gives for warmer, noun, ‘something (such as a device or piece of clothing) that is used to keep something warm’.

39. michelle@28
    SHALLOT
    ‘That’s your (ya/yer) lot’ and ‘that’s shallot’ sound alike.
    There is no onion left. That’s your lot.
    There is no more onion. That’s shallot.
    I was looking for a homophone, but could not arrive at ‘your lot’.
    Knowing the joke could have helped.

40. Paul’s got a thing about supposed homophones and pronunciation in dialects of English. That seems to be his new fetish after dropping the naughty words lately. Message to self, careful what you wish for.

41. essexboy would be able to give the linguistic explanation of:
    that’s your lot>thatshallot. However I think it comes across better in dialects of British English, mainly because it’s a phrase that’s more familiar there than in this neck of the world.

42. Or imagine if the speaker had had a tipple too many and said “Tha’ sha lot!”

43. paddymelon@41
    I agree. It is applicable more to me (not being a native English speaker) than to you.
    There is a temptation to post what I understand without waiting for an expert
    on the subject to post her/his explanation. 🙂

44. I struggled with this but got there in the end, but only after ditching Cilla Black.

    I liked the effin’ chow chow, Posh and Ginger, OSCILLATE, the university courses in SET MENU, and LEAKAGE. I got a bit lost at times with the parsing, thinking the ass in BANANARAMA was a banana, the ‘something enjoyable’ being IT in UNITE (but grumbling that that was unequally stripped), and the ‘warmer’ in 1A (keeping drink warmer might have been better.)

    Fun in retrospect but frustrating at the time.

    Thanks Paul and bridgesong.

45. Certainly a tough one and a clear case of 2 heads being better than one. Just to be clear, I have never been ‘familiar’ with The Bangles (Bridgesong @ blog). I think I heard “Walk like an Egyptian” recently on the wireless (BBC Home service, possibly) which led, eventually to a light bulb moment staring at 11 A. Thanks to Bridgesong, as ever, for his many insights and the blog, and to Paul for his brilliant puzzles.

46. KVa@43. We’re all experts here. That’s what makes 15sq so much fun. 🙂

47. KVa @43, and other 15 squarers who are non-native speakers of English, kudos!

48. I like most of Paul’s offerings and admire some, but not this one. I’m with those who found it all a bit of a slog. Unfortunately, I got far enough into solving it to persevere with help from Google and a word-filler. The circularity of the GIRL BAND clues was too obscure. I didn’t want to waste any more time, and so I stuck with the unsatisfactory CILLA and BLACK, wondering if there was a circular reference to the band BLACKGIRL which I found via Google. I filled out the other clues correctly but some others with incomplete justification. I will count this puzzle as solved as the circularity by the setter was unreasonably obscure. Thanks for the complete explanations for a few other clues from Bridgesong and other bloggers. I probably enjoyed some clues, but I forget which, and I just want to put this one away.

49. paddymelon@46
    Fun, for sure. And a great deal to learn every single day.

50. I’ll have to remember JohnJB@48’s justification for counting a dnf as a completion: the setter’s abject failure to set clues that the potential solver is comfortable with. Next time I’m a few answers short on an Anto it’ll be the setter’s fault not mine. 🙂

51. Enjoyed this one, though I found some parsings rather difficult. I can’t for the life of me see how the anagram is indicated in 17a. Is it just “another” somehow?

52. A couple of people have queried the anagram indicator in 17a. I see that I have not helped matters by mistakenly underlining 10, which is just the definition (“girl”). I took the view that “another” was shorthand for “another spelling”, so Samsa @51, yes it was the anagram indicator. But as KeithS points out @13, it’s doing double duty as part of the definition: “another girl”.

53. I think it could be – Celia (becomes) another girl – just read as one with the substitution for the numbers. Still not great.
    I solve it from 10.27 – 17? giving GIRL BAND so the 17 must be Alice.

54. Yes, I agree that 10, 27’s clue ’17?’ implies that 17 must be ALICE, but did anyone get 17 first and then go to 10, 27? I must admit that having written in GIRL BAND with a shrug and not stopping to parse it, it never occured to me to go back to it for confirmation that it is in effect a reverse clue for ALICE.

    The actual clue for ALICE doesn’t really work, does it. ‘3 another 10’=’CELIA another GIRL’, so it’s ‘anagram of Celia’ (indicated by ‘another’, implying another spelling using those letters) and definition ‘another girl’, using the word a second time. Or if we disregard the second use of ‘another’ then the definition for ALICE is the rather feeble ‘girl’. It’s only by putting this together with 10, 27’s clue ’17?’ that we get a clue that satisfies.

    Very tricky, these setters.

55. Thanks Paul and Bridgesong. Great puzzle but have to admit defeat on this one. Never got as far as even pencilling in CILLA BLACK because it just didn’t parse. So I didn’t get 12a or 18d either! Strangely I have no problem with TEA COSY and fUNITEm, despite the implied breaking of the laws of thermodynamics.

56. SH@54 I got BANANARAMA to give 10,27 GIRL BAND to give 17 ALICE to give 3D CELIA . Possibly opposite to the intended order .

57. The discussion from 51 to 54 has made me realise that, as I arrived at GIRL BAND “in reverse” from 11a, I missed the ref to ALICE in its definition, thus ELICA would not be a suitable answer to 17a. Thanks everyone for putting me right, gripe withdrawn. But I agree wholeheartedly with the final remark of Sheffield hatter@54!

58. Well Sheffield Hatter@50, I usually admire the trickiness of Paul’s clues even when I don’t manage to solve them, but this puzzle crossed the line into irritating time-wasting. I was expecting a cryptic crossword, not a 3-point circular riddle. I got 10,27 without using the clues by considering possibilities for -i–/b-n- and compiling a shortlist for the second word.

59. pdm @41, re shallot –

    Gotcha! It’s our old friend yod coalescence 🙂

    Lots of folks round here say ‘label’ in away that RP speakers might interpret as ‘libel’.

    But of course, Cockneys would never say that they pronounce label like libel, because for them the two words are entirely different. For ‘libel’, they use a vowel sound which approaches the one RP speakers use in ‘boy’. If I were being slightly mischievous, I might suggest that the same phenomenon is affecting the perception of our Aussie commenters – and indeed our perception of them.

60. (Think Eliza Doolittle and the rine in Spine.)

61. KvA @39 thanks for explaining the joke about the shallot – I never would have guessed that it sounded alike!

62. [eb @60
    Hardly Australian, though.]

63. [vhargehand#27, Tennyson probably ended his poetry readings with that Shalott.]

64. [muffin @62 – true, although historically, Australian English pronunciation was heavily influenced by Cockney.]

65. [Thanks for that, eb – I didn’t know that]

66. Great puzzle (which I rather romped through (I know! (I don’t know!)), super blog and v entertaining contributions all round.

    Doesn’t surprise me that Araucaria (per lenmasterman@25) led the way here, although he might have had trouble (from different perspectives) accommodating Fanny, who – athough the quintessential ‘GIRL BAND’ – would have been pretty well old hat in the 90s (I suppose). I will check out ALICE for music; I just hope they actually play their instruments. (My own personal favourite GIRL BAND is Sweet Sue and her Society Syncopators – every one a virtuoso!)

    My experience of that puzzle was congruent with that of Charles@30.

    And I share the admiration distribution of Roz@18.

    cookie@38 beat me to it in re of ‘warmer’.

    TILT: ‘yod coalescence‘ (Now to introduce it into conversation. (Would ‘How’ya‘ be a good opener?..))

    Thanks all (incl Timon and Kenmac!!).

67. TimSee@63: 🙂

68. [Alphalpha @66 – Wotcha might getcha there more directly. Or howd’ja do? 😉 ]

69. […and talking of GIRL BANDS, don’t cha wish your girlfriend was hot like me?]

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