Guardian Cryptic 29,155 by Soup

by

The puzzle may be found at https://www.theguardian.com/crosswords/cryptic/29155.

Soup, as a Guardian setter, makes the jump from Genius to regular Cryptic, and does so largely successfully, although there are a couple of quite tricky pieces of wordplay.

ACROSS
7 KITTENS
Before shocking treatment clobber animals (7)
A charade of KIT (gear, ‘clobber’) plus TENS (Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulation ‘shocking treatment’).
8 TEENAGE
Such as one born loveless to backward adolescent (7)
A reversal (‘backward’) of EG (‘such as’) plus A (‘one’) plus NEE (‘born’) plus T, which is ‘t[o]’ minus the O (‘loveless’). It took me a while to untangle the wordplay.
9 CHAR
Sear fish (4)
Double definition.
10 ANSWERING
Picking up phone after a news broadcast (9)
A charade of ‘a’ plus NSEW, an anagram (‘broadcast’) of ‘news’ plus RING (‘phone’).
12 PRICE
Damage soft cereal (5)
A charade of P (piano, musically ‘soft’) plus RICE (‘cereal’). The definition is as in the colloquial “What’s the damage?” for “how much is the cost?”
13 STAR SIGN
Maybe Leo Di Caprio’s one chased by Mark (4,4)
A charade of STAR (‘DiCaprio’s one’, to use his preferred spelling) plus (‘chased by’) SIGN (‘mark’).
15 TRUG
Somewhat stout rugged little basket (4)
A hidden answer (‘somewhat’) in ‘stouT RUGged’.
16 GEESE
Birds flying westwards, perhaps over Bavarian lake (5)
A reversal (‘flying westwards’) of an envelope (‘over’) of SEE (‘Bavarian lake’ – German for a lake) in EG (‘perhaps’).
17 CHOP
Cut first bits of cold ham onto plate (4)
Initial letters (‘first bits’) of ‘Cold Ham Onto Plate’.
18 EXOTERIC
Popular former partner to go back to Morecambe (8)
A charade of EX (‘former partner’) plus OT, a reversal (‘go back’) of ‘to’ plus ERIC (‘Morecambe’).
20 TUTEE
Core content of lectures Queens’ student at last absorbed — she’s learning (5)
An envelope (‘absorbed’) of T (‘studenT at last’) in TU EE (‘core content of lecTUres quEEns’). a person (of either gender) under a tutor.
21 PROMISSOR
One takes an oath for girl in front of soldiers (9)
A charade of PRO (‘for’) plus MISS (‘girl’) plus OR (other ranks, ‘soldiers’).
22 HAIR
Fibre that’s heavier? Oddly not! (4)
Alternate letters (‘oddly’) of ‘HeAvIeR‘. ‘Not’ is for the extended definition, but perhaps does not respond to too close an inspection.
24 PAGEBOY
Settle to secure reversal of appeal by old attendant (7)
An envelope (‘to secure’) of GEB, a ‘reversal’ of BEG (‘appeal’) plus O (‘old’) in PAY (‘settle’).
25 BUTLINS
Surprisingly, Istanbul is lacking a holiday camp (7)
An anagram (‘surprisingly’) of ‘Ist[a]nbul’ minus the A (‘lacking a’). Still around, for longer than I have been, but rather reduced.
DOWN
1 BISH
Rub out nonsense — that’s a mistake! (4)
A subtraction: [rub]BISH (‘nonsense’) minus RUB (‘rub out’). Once at school a long long time ago I came across the mitre part of a broken chess piece, and announced “Someone’s made a bish”.
2 STERLING
Genuine curled ringlets (8)
An anagram (‘curled’) of ‘ringlets’.
3 ENGAGE
Attack plum, getting rid of the top (6)
Here ‘the top’ has to indicate more than one letter. A subtraction: [gre]ENGAGE (‘plum’) minus GRE (‘getting rid of its top’).
4 DELEGATE
Second scandal for footballer Alli? (8)
A charade of DELE (‘footballer Alli’, playing for Everton) plus -‘GATE’ the all-purpose suffix for a ‘scandal’.
5 SNAILS
Tack on board ship — they make slow progress (6)
An envelope (‘on board’) of NAIL (‘tack’) in SS (‘ship’).
6 AGOG
Excited a giant (4)
A charade of ‘a’ plus GOG (and Magog,or Gogmagog, ‘giant’)
11 SESTERCES
Roman coins phrase, but only the final third’s covered up (9)
A charade of SE (‘phraSE but only the final third’) plus S (the ‘s of ‘third’s’) plus TERCES, a reversal (‘up’ in a down light) of SECRET (‘covered’).
12 PYREX
Pile of wood by heat-resistant glassware (5)
A charade of PYRE (‘pile of wood’ for burning) plus X (no, not Twitter, ‘by’ – four by two).
14 GLOVE
Tory politician Michael finally imported protective clothing (5)
An envelope (‘imported’) of L (‘MichaeL finally’) in GOVE (also Michael, ‘Tory politician’).
16 GARRISON
Written up denial to superior facing ridicule in place where troops are stationed (8)
A reversal (‘written up’ in a down light) of NO (‘denial’) plus SIR (‘superior’) plus RAG (‘ridicule’).
17 CATCHALL
Shout of disapproval about hospital, covering every eventuality (5-3)
A]n envelope (‘about’) of H (‘hospital’) in CAT-CALL (‘shout of disapproval’).
19 TOOTER
One blows whistle going down and up to the outskirts of Exeter (6)
A charade of TO OT (in a down light, ‘going up and down TO‘) plus ER (the outskirts of ExeteR‘).
20 TORQUE
Band Queen in split (6)
An envelope (‘in’) of QU (‘Queen’) in TORE (‘split’). A torque, or torc, is an armband or necklace.
21 PRAY
Request froth but no head (4)
A subtraction: [s]PRAY (‘froth’) minus the first letter (‘no head’).
23 IONA
Island not off America? (4)
A charade of I (‘island’) plus ON (‘not off’) plus A (‘America’), &lit.

picture of the completed grid

114 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 29,155 by Soup”

  1. Thanks, PeterO, I needed you for several, BISH being one of them (liked your terrible pun, by the way). I am afraid I got rather bored towards the end and revealed the final few. I didn’t know the shock treatment, trying to fit ECT in there, of course. A list of Bavarian lakes revealed nothing but a lot of SEEs, until the penny dropped.

    Thanks also Soup

  2. Thank you for the parsing of 7 and 16 across, hadn’t understood TENS and eg = perhaps. Jumbled ‘Boo’, ‘all’ and ‘h’, bunged in “Bally-hoo” for 17 down, was horribly mistaken… ? Revealed 3 down.

  3. Another puzzle where German and Latin O-level saved the day. Oh, and speaking of SESTERCES, Peter, your explanation dropped the interior S.
    Also helped by watching a lot of football (for DELE) and my wife once used a TENS unit (I gathered it was more of a buzz than a shock).

    Thanks S&P

  4. Thanks, Soup and PeterO!
    Liked the puzzle. The blog is excellent as usual.

    ENGAGE
    The sentence said: Get rid of the top.
    The execution: Removed the head and a quarter.
    Is a convention broken?
    (The blog makes a mention of this ‘deviation’).

  5. Thanks PeterO for clearing up the parsing on some of Soup’s more obscure clues. One thought: re 20d isn’t TORQUE more commonly used for the band measuring an an engine’s pulling power rather than an armband?

  6. Well, that was a lexicon expander! New to me TRUG, EXOTERIC, TUTEE, SESTERCES, PROMISSOR & TORQUE (band), along with the three Britishisms BUTLINS, BISH & Michael Gove. Many of these were derived from the wordplay without too much difficulty, but it’s a longer list than I’d have liked.

    In STAR SIGN, I thought “di Caprio’s one” gave STARSI and couldn’t work out why GN was mark.

    I had to reveal the last few. Couldn’t parse KITTENS (no wonder … transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation, indeed!) & BISH. Spray and froth aren’t really the same.

    This is only the second time I’ve encountered this setter. Mostly I’d give it a thumbs up, but the above list is rather long.

    Thanks for the blog PeterO.

  7. Did this by a beach in Koh Phangan, so not suffering from insomnia. GDU @6: I had the same issue with STAR SIGN until the simpler explanation clicked. A nice array of clues with ticks for EXOTERIC, PROMISSOR, DELEGATE, PYREX, CATCH-ALL and IONA. Did wonder if footballer Alli might be a stretch for non-UK solvers, or even UK solvers for that matter. As Dr. WhatsOn says @3, a little ‘O’ level knowledge actually comes in useful sometimes.

    Ta Soup & PeterO.

  8. Thank you Peter O. Needed you and Dr.WhatsOn @3 for SESTERCES.
    And as per Willbar@5, I only found the motor meaning for TORQUE. Must admit didn’t look further.
    I liked BISH, PYREX and STAR SIGN for the aha moments. Most of my GK deficits didnt matter as the wordplay was clear and google confirmed.

  10. Now waiting at the doctor’s have had time to look at various online dictionary meanings of TORQUE. I suppose it doesn’t matter really as “band” is not further defined.
    My first guess for the “band” was a musical one and even googled that but it didn’t come up. Have since found an American thrash metal band called TORQUE. Good name for a band.

  11. paddymelon@8
    TORQUE
    You may check under TORC (also spelt as TORQUE). You should find the armband/necklace meaning.
    There is/was a music band TORQUE (Thanks, Dear Google). As I don’t know if this is/was a popular band.

    GDU@6
    BISH
    This is appearing regularly now, I think. If this trend continues, We will remember this word.

    EXOTERIC
    This word is probably stored in my brain in a cell cluster adjacent to one that stores ‘esoteric’.
    When forgetting one, I may forget the other too? 🙂

  12. Yes, KVa @ 11, I have a very vague recollection of BISH in a puzzle a few months ago. I wonder whether I’ll remember it next time?

  13. AlanC@7
    As long as Google (It has O-level knowledge on everything) is there, we have nothing to worry about.

  14. And thanks Dave Ellison @1 for prompting me to reread Peter O’s blog. I didn’t get the pun the first time round.
    Boom tish PeterO. Very funny. Made this hour’s wait at the doctor’s well worth it.

  16. Pyre is a lovely old word [for some reason evoking Lehrer… playing a viiolin, olin]. Promissor without its y was a first. ‘See’ for lake remembered more from doing [boating on Chiemsee] than learning. And, similar to Willbar and pdm, thought torque was rotary force. All good though, thanks Peter and Soup.

  17. grantinfreo@16
    PROMISSOR
    Agree that Promissory is seen more often. For ‘one who promises’, I have come across
    ‘promisor’ but not PROMISSOR. Guessable from the wordplay though. Just had to crosscheck.

    TUTEE
    We hear ‘tutor’ all the time. Not TUTEE. Could not recall the word immediately but the wordplay
    was helpful.

  18. A few too many obscurities for my liking, although Googling “footballer Alli” gave me the required information immediately. I shall now proceed to forget about him. I suppose that I shall eventually retain BISH if its use is on the rise, although it is a particularly twee bit of slang. I also had no reason to know the German word for “lake”.

  19. Morning, all. Looks like a solid 6/10 for this puzzle: some things to like but some to do better on; points noted. I try to only use words I know, rather than things that will fit, allowing myself one new one per puzzle if it helps with a grid fill; in this case that was EXOTERIC (though PROMISSOR was new but it’s easily derivable from PROMISSORY so I didn’t really count it). If you haven’t got a TRUG to use in your garden you should; I grew up in Sussex and it’s a traditional design there. https://www.sussextrugs.com . TORCs as a band come up in that spelling more often but given it’s an old word it has a couple of ways of spelling it. Someone once told me you have to get the fit right otherwise it cuts of circulation and you die – ‘careless torc costs lives’. Fnar.

    I set this puzzle after being an academic at Queens’ College in Cambridge for a few months. That’s why there’s a reference to Queens’ in 20a (you can google the reason for the apostrophe being there rather than before the s). TUTEEs are abundant at Cambridge – I didn’t for a moment realise this was a word that wasn’t in general usage! Queens’ is also behind the reason for some of the odd words – I’ve hidden the names of fifteen Queens’ academics in the grid (KITT, GOG, EL-ERIAN, HARLING, PRICE, REX, GLOVER, GARRISON, GEE, RICE, PRAGER, HALL, CHALLINOR, BUTLIN, ROSSI). They snake around a bit, sometimes diagonally, sometimes backwards. If people don’t like the obscurities which came from this then perhaps I’ll tone it down a bit in future…!

    Thanks for the blog, PeterO, and for the comments, others – I’ll dip in and out throughout the day and answer any questions. And I’ll see you later on the Inquisitor blog – it’s mine due up today!

    PS grantinfreo@16: ‘Occasional pieces of skin’ was always my favourite.

  20. Plenty I liked in here from an occasional contributor although the Queens academics element passed me by. I guess that is a private joke. PYREX, BUTLINS and TRUG probably my podium. That said, I’m sorry Soup but, unless someone comes up with a better parse, ‘getting rid of the top’ as an instruction to remove the first three letters of (gre)ENGAGE feels rather loose.

    Thanks Soup and PeterO

  21. Soup@19
    Thanks for dropping in with your clarifications and much more.
    I found the puzzle excellent.
    I was wondering why you removed a third of the word (GREENGAGE)
    while getting rid of the top!

  23. I’m with those who got bored and pressed reveal. Seems like it’s one of those weeks.
    Thanks to PeterO for the blog, and to Soup for the puzzle and for coming here and accepting the criticism with good grace.

  24. KVa@21: I think I’d merely say that convention isn’t law – sure, I’d usually use ‘top’ for one letter, but in a long word I think it’s ok to remove a bit more. I’m about to take the top off a tree in the garden, and that’ll be reducing it by about a third… (Not a greengage tree, though.)

  25. Thanks Soup and PeterO
    Most of this went in surprisingly quickly. though I had to Google the footballer, and like others knew esoteric but not exo…
    I got TORQUE from the crossers, but accepted it from the torc spelling.
    I was puzzled by the “not” in 22a, and thought it was a mistake.
    Lots to like, Favourite ANSWERING.
    Now I can go to golf!

  26. Oh, and PostMark@20: Yes, entirely a private joke, which I hope didn’t get in the way of the puzzle. If you feel it did, noted, and I’ll tone it down next time 🙂

  27. Soup@24
    Thanks for your response (and the humorous example).
    More than anything, we are always delighted to hear from the setters.
    It’s always enlightening.

  28. HAIR
    muffin@25
    I took it as a Clue-as-def or an extended def (PeterO considered it that way too). It kinda works for me.

  31. Unsure about perhaps for eg in GEESE. The ‘not’ confused (misdirected?) me in HAIR. No hope of Allie DELE. I needed the blog for SESTERCES.
    I loved the “Someone’s made a bish” PeterO. You were obviously destined for crosswords.

  32. Tim C @31: his name is actually Dele Alli and worth remembering, as he has popped up before, most recently in a Qaos puzzle. A bit unfair now probably, as he is not as well known as he was a few years ago in partnership with Harry Kane. Thanks for popping in H/S and so what if the academics are unknown, good fun for you.

  33. Soup @26: no danger at all of the theme getting in the way. As I said, I did not notice it and my comment was not intended as a criticism. I know, from past solves, that you enjoy incorporating a theme and this is not the first Cambridge one I have seen. But little danger of spotting this one. I would imagine the copy of the Guardian in Queens’ SCR will be well-thumbed by the time the day is out.

    Queens’ SCR is also the kind of environment in which I could imagine there being long and esoteric debate as to what and how much constitutes the top of something … 😉

  34. Mostly enjoyed this very much; 6/10 is a harsh self-assessment, and the in-jokes didn’t interfere at all. I think the wordplay in (gre)ENGAGE is a stretch and would be more acceptable if the crossers in that word were less open. Searching for ?N?A?E gives a *lot* of possibilities!

  35. Like this a lot. Thanks, Soup and PeterO. Got slightly hung up on parsing SESTERCES thinking third had to be TERCES but couldn’t make the rest of it work. Other than that, all in my wheelhouse, as the kids say. Greengages always make me think of Lucky Jim, which is a good thing. I’ve experienced TENS as part of physio treatment, can’t say I found it very effective.

    H/S @19 – No problem with [gre]ENGAGE for me – as you say, convention rather than law. I’d also argue that EXOTERIC is reasonably straightforward to deduce if you know esoteric, and the wordplay was clear enough (I suppose there’s a kind of irony in exoteric being an esoteric word). Please don’t tone down your puzzles too much in future – some of us like this kind of thing! Also, please come back more often.

  36. Struggled with the NW corner. Couldn’t see how the clue for ENGAGE told us how many letters to knock off the top of greengage. NHO BISH. The acronym “tens” was outside my GK as was the German word for lake so I couldn’t parse KITTENS or GEESE – will try to link German lakes and Bishoprics in my mind for future reference! Familiar with STERLING meaning first-rate or excellent, but not genuine. But not comment from PeterO so I expect that in a dictionary somewhere it is a lower order definition. Liked BUTLINS, EXOTERIC and SESTERCES a lot. Thanks Soup, both for the xword and for dropping in to join the chat, and thanks PeterO for the excellent blog.

  37. I think 6/10 is harsh, very much in the spirit of post-Covid marking. I enjoyed the mix of easy and convoluted clues. It’s sometimes good to challenge a convention like top being the first letter, and it was a pleasant surprise that the plum was actually a plum, rather than something choice, or even worse a sum of £100,000.

  38. I only know GREENGAGE from cryptics and dredged it up. I don’t have a problem with more than one letter chopped from the top(iary), but then I suppose you’d have to know GREENGAGE for that to happen, after going through all the other meanings of plum. I wondered if Soup/Hamish was giving us a hint with Getting Rid of …. but the next word would have needed to start with an ”E”, and then some, an idea he may have started with, but he didn’t say.

    The EXOTERIC Queens’ academics, were, of course, lost on me and I was just pleased to be able to understand PostMark’s comment about the SCR, Senior Common Room, from movies and books. I do think all that is a bit esoteric and if Soup wants to have his private joke, and it doesn’t affect the crossie, that’s all right by me. Signed, a former member of the SRC, Students’ Representative Council, in the rural backblocks of the University of New England, NSW, anyone heard of that? 🙂

  39. I’m a tad unhappy with “second” as the definition of “delegate” in 4. A person who seconds me is not my delegate. Maybe they do things differently in the other place? (Another academic in-joke.)

  41. Yes paddymelon @38 …. “Signed, a former member of the SRC, Students’ Representative Council, in the rural backblocks of the University of New England, NSW, anyone heard of that?”…. I’ve heard of that.

  42. Yes Me @39. My first take was second as a verb, and not happy about it. But I was more comfortable when I tried second as a noun, as in proxy, or deputy. Still not ideal though. What does in the other place mean in academia? I only know it as relating to our Houses of Parliament.

  43. I’m with Petert @37, in that 6/10 is rather harsh and with Widdersbel’s second paragraph @35.

    I certainly got on better with this than some of Soup’s previous offerings and I appreciate his popping in to clarify or enhance. I confess to ‘cheating’ to get the footballer. I googled ‘alli???? gate, footballer’ and the first thing that came up was a news item involving English manager Gareth SouthGATE, which rather amused me.

    I particularly enjoyed 10 ANSWERING, 13ac STAR SIGN, 25 BUTLINS, 1dn BISH (as others have said, becoming increasingly familiar), 11dn SESTERCES and 23dn IONA.

    Many thanks to Soup – hoping to see you in York – and to PeterO.

  44. Good to hear from Hamish, who also visits crosswordsolver when he’s set a genius. With 11, I think we need the s from third’s for the second S in SESTERCES, don’t we?

  45. [Thanks Tim C. I feel validated! Went to a few more Unis as well, but those were the good ol’ days at UNE in the early 70s, Vietnam war era, marches on Canberra, music and politics. Who’d a thought that about UNE with all the landed gentry’s sons (mostly) studying Rural Science and Agricultural Economics? But I was studying modern German and 17th Century French literature as a 17 year old, Kafka and co, Rousseau and co, while gazing at the sheep out of the window. Crazy!]

  46. I liked this: a good mix of write-ins and chewier clues, though I ran out of time with two to go. Having got the surround answers I became fixated on INVADE for 3D, though I couldn’t make it work (not surprisingly). Never heard of EXOTERIC, though easy to work out. With 7A I tried to fit in ECT. I’d never heard of TENS. With thanks to Soup and PeterO.

  47. Yes Me@39 Second = Delegate is fine once you pronounce it Se-Cond. My headmaster of nearly 70 years ago was nicknamed The Bish (his surname was Bishop – subtle, eh?). Thanks S & P.

  48. Thanks Soup and PeterO

    paul @ 36 Chambers defines sterling (addjective) in the following sequence

    1. Of standard British money
    2. Genuine, authentic
    3. Of authority
    4. Of thoroughly good character, solidly worthy and reliable
    5. (of silver) of standard quality, ie containing at least 92.5 per cent silver (usu alloyed with copper)

  49. Too many head scratchers to call this truly enjoyable. Spray for froth? The true meaning and use of toot? The unfortunate timing of a clue like 4d in the light of how brave Mr Alli has been recently about his mental health. A long winded 16d clue to read through before the definition as GARRISON plainly given at the very end. TUTEE a new one for me. IONA seemed to have something missing in the cluing. No idea how GEESE worked. All sounds rather negative, though I liked BUTLINS (still do, the folk weekend at Skeggie in December). These have probably all been chewed over already, haven’t read the blog, in a hurry to get off up the A1 to York and lose a few SESTERCES at their Ebor Racing Festival starting tomorrow.

  50. [paddymelon @45 before my time here. I arrived in mid 1980s with a wonderful (Aussie) woman I met in the 70s at London Uni… probably a lot different to UNE]

  52. Thanks to Soup and PeterO. Again coming here too late to add anything earth-shattering. This grid unfolded steadily for me with only a couple of uncertain entries. It’s kind of ironic that my favourite clue was BUTLINS at 25a – not sure how Antipodeans like me get to know such trivia!

  53. well, my fury at the misapplication of apostrophes (especially its and it’s) is somewhat assuaged by Soup’s link to the placement in Queens’ – since I had always believed the myth of there being two queens. Since it seems to be haphazard, one could spell it Queen’s and link it to King’s, as Margaret was the wife (unhappily) of Henry VI, founder of King’s. Or, it could equally be Kings’ – since the chapel anyway was started by Henry, continued by Richard III and finished (with many Tudor roses) by Henry VIII

  54. I didn’t know the shock treatment and had to wrench DELE out of my fast fading football memory and I wasn’t too sure of a DELEGATE being a second. If BISH has been in a recent puzzle I must have missed it. It was new to me.

  55. An enjoyably tough challenge.

    Favourites: PYREX, TEENAGE, IONA, TORQUE (loi).

    New for me: TRUG, PROMISSOR; TENS = transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation (for 7ac); footballer Dele Alli; TUTEE.

    I could not parse the ‘Rub out nonsense’ bit of 1d.

    Thanks, both.

    I parsed 11d as SE + rev of SECRETS but what prospero@44 wrote makes sense to me too, so SE’S + reversal of SECRET

  56. Thanks to Soup for explaining some of the references which were beyond many solvers:
    Queens’ is also behind the reason for some … I’ve hidden the names of fifteen Queens’ academics in the grid (KITT, GOG, EL-ERIAN, HARLING, PRICE, REX, GLOVER, GARRISON, GEE, RICE, PRAGER, HALL, CHALLINOR, BUTLIN, ROSSI). They snake around a bit, sometimes diagonally, sometimes backwards.
    [Enjoyed the Aussie uni discussion paddymelon@44 et al; a country girl who went to study at UQ here from about the same era; it’s always interesting reminiscing on our alma mater experiences as evoked by such a puzzle. I’m a bit in awe of Soup integrating so many references to his Cambridge connections into this crossword].

  58. [JiA. Nearly went to UQ, but with umpteen thousand students and having to find somewhere to live, I chose little ol’ UNE, on campus. Did visit Oxford and Cambridge in the mid 70’s and had a boyfriend who was sent down from Oxford, the son of a Judge, met at Speaker’s Corner. True story, typical Aussie travellers’ tale. Going now before I get modded.]

  59. Paddymelon, I was at UNE in the 70s. I think we may have had this discussion as our alter egos on DA Trippers?

  60. I last met a TRUG 57 years ago, when I had a job picking daffodils on a Cornish farm during the school holidays. (I think my back’s nearly recovered.) What brought this back to mind was Picaroon’s clue for ALFA ROMEO last Thursday. Given our low wages, we were quite surprised to see the owner of the farm driving a brand-new Alfa Romeo, and even more surprised when we discovered that, as he doubted the reliability of the after-sales service on foreign cars, he had an identical Alfa parked in the barn. “…for spares” he said.

  61. Like others, tried to fit ECT into 7A, though I once owned a TENS machine in the hope it might help with the after effects of shingles (it didn’t). Yes, the effect is more of a gentle tingle than anything shocking. Thought TEENAGE might be NEONATE for sometime, though of course I couldn’t parse it – and TEENAGE wasn’t much easier.

    I like the near &lit of TRUG. EXOTERIC and TUTEE were new and I needed a map of Bavaria to find the SEE. GLOVE is sneaky: I was too busy identifying Tory Michael to see where the L came from. I thought the band had to be spelled TORC, but obviously I was wrong.

    Greengages are in season – indeed, I am eating one right now. But you have to be sure that what you are buying is the true greengage (variety Reine Claude) – because supermarkets will try to pass off any old greenish plums as greengages, and the taste is nothing like!

  63. All this talk of the UNE brought back memories of performing our NIDA (National Institute of Dramatic Art) graduation production of “Oh what a lovely war” there in 1972 or 1973. So long ago I don’t remember which year exactly

  64. An interesting mix of mostly straightforward with a few really tricky ones thrown in. My favourite was the DELE Alli scandal, but I always like a good -GATE clue.

    I also rather liked the TOOTER and TUTEE pairing! (Though I have to say that I’m not normally fond of the latter word. Like “mentee”, it seems to be based on the idea that tutors are people who tute, and mentors are people who ment.)

    Thanks Soup and PeterO.

  65. Thanks Soup, and PeterO – we’ve had AGAG yesterday, and AGOG today. I’m a-gagging to see what tomorrow brings!

  66. When I started this I thought it was going to be easy, but soon got stuck on some of the more challenging clues – enjoyable, though.

    Like Widdersbel @35, I thought the third in 11D was TERCES, and not surprisingly was then stumped for the parsing. At the beginning I thought the grid might yield a perimeter NINA, but Hamish @19 has revealed all. I liked the ‘loveless to’ in TEENAGE and the neat surface of the clue for ANSWERING.

    Thanks Soup and PeterO.

  67. A fine puzzle. Definitely a 7/10 or better. The only obscurity I could see was EXOTERIC, which was new to me.

    Needed the blog to parse TEENAGE, though the answer was clear.

    I too spent ages trying to shoehorn ECT into 7a. Which is odd as I have had innumerable occasions of treatment with a TENS machine and they are routinely used in maternity so my daughters tell me.

    Taking more than just the top letter off greengage seems fair play to me, although it does make the solving more difficult.

    Overall, a very satisfactory puzzle, with just enough challenge.

    Thanks to Soup and PeterO

  68. Thanks for the blog, very enjoyable puzzle 8/10 at least for me. SESTERCES was very neat and crossing with the clever GREBE. I love greENGAGEs , very short season, we get fewer from France in the markets now thanks to the wonders of Brexit. Perhaps …. getting rid of the top THIRD would make the clue more precise.

  69. Thanks to Hamish/Soup for dropping in. Definitely a lot better than 6/10, and the right level of obscurity in my opinion.

    Chambers has “torc”: see TORQUE, which seems to answer all queries on that one. Greengages are among my favourite plums (Reine Claude, as Gladys says @61), so no problems with topping them for 3d. BISH was hard, but delightful when the parsing finally made sense.

    Thanks to Soup and PeterO.

  70. Thanks both.

    I didn’t enjoy this much and I can only offer as a reason that the definitions were too watery in the midst of some pretty stern wordplay: animals=KITTENS, attack=ENGAGE, birds=GEESE, second=DELEGATE; I could throw in TOOTER and TUTEE (but really only because they amuse me). It’s a hard task to set a crossword at this level and to introduce overlays of extempore complexity runs the risk of leaving the solver feeling a bit isolated.

  71. I remembered the “on board” convention from recent discussion, I’m happy to say. I was held up for a while by writing in PRICK for 12A: P plus RICK (a bundle of hay etc.) fits the clue but not the crosser.

    I was disappointed with 3D and 22A. NHO BISH despite having been an English schoolboy of the appropriate age.

  72. Hamish/Soup @19 – the in-joke is delightful once explained, and since it doesn’t affect the solving, entirely harmless. Thank you for the puzzle which was good Tuesday fare despite a couple of quibbles.

  73. BISH making its monthly visit.
    21st July , Picaroon – BISH=blunder
    21st June , Pasquale – BISH= What’s wrong, part of the wordplay for bishoprics.

  74. DELEGATE
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dele_Alli
    ‘In the summer of 2016, Alli announced that he would stop having his surname on match shirts, instead opting for “Dele”, since he felt no connection with his biological father’s family.’ He played for an unmentionable North London side. Other North London sides are available, including one affectionately known as “London !rish” when the manager and most of the players were !rish.

  75. I had GLEBE for GEESE, the EG was fine and I thought there might be a Lake Len, having worked a season in the Austrian Alps, I should have realised it would have been Lebsee.
    Thanks for an enjoyable puzzle and blog, two thirds went in easily, bit then I struggled.
    Re TORQUE, in the motoring sense it is a synonym for moment.

  77. 5d I went for ‘Tack’ as sails (necessary equipment- like a horse has?)_ and was then left with the ‘N’ so I got there by a misunderstanding of tack

  79. Dr. WharsOn @3
    Thanks for the heads up; the parsing of 11D SESTERCES now corrected.
    Hamish/Soup @19 etc.
    Thank you for your comments; it is always good to get a setter’s view, although I think that 6/10 is far too harsh a judgement.
    paddymelon @42
    At Oxford, the other place refers to the establishment the other side of Bletchley.

  80. Never heard if TENS or Alli Dele. “Roman coins” made me think SISTERCII, so I had to correct the spelling — I’m surprised any version of the word bubbled up. I carelessly put in Promisser, not having registered the soldiers. Biffed in PYREX, but no hope of parsing it.

    I think EXOTERIC is much more esoteric than “esoteric.”

    Soup, your private joke did no harm, and it was amusing to learn of it.

    Surely the most gruesome is “invited the neighbors in.”

    pdm@38 I’ve never heard of the University of New England, and I live there. Google tells me that it is a private research(?) university and operates in Maine (that’s in New England) and Tangier and online, but it doesn’t mention NSW. Has it moved?

    I have to go out now, don’t have time to read the whole blog.

  81. PeterO@79 – Yes, I’d give it at least 8/10.
    At “London !rish” (see @74), the other place refers to the establishment the other side of North London, across the A10.

  83. Like others I was trying to fit ECT instead in TENS which I didn’t know.
    But I did know Gog was a chap in the bible and Magog where he came from. He morphed into one or two giants somehow.
    Thanks Soup and PeterO

  84. SimonS@48 thanks for doing the dictionary trawl. I did a quick online search and the first few dictionaries cited – Merriam Webster, Cambridge Dictionary, Collins have only the ‘first class’ definition for the adjective. But I was confident that there would be a dictionary somewhere that gave an additional meaning as ‘genuine’.

  85. Thanks to Hamish/Soup for dropping in. I agree with those who say 6/10 was too harsh.

    I’d definitely prefer not to have the “not” in 22ac. The clue works perfectly without it, and I still don’t quite see how it’s supposed to work with it.

    Like others, I assumed that there was a musical band called Torque. Indeed, given the number of bands and the number of plausible names, there pretty much had to be! I had heard the armband meaning but had forgotten about it.

    I had to cheat on 1dn (BISH), which I think I had heard at some point before but which I couldn’t call to mind. There were a fair number of other bits of information that I lacked (TENS, trug, Butlins, Dele Alli), but I managed to sort them all out, so I learned quite a bit today.

  87. Thanks PeterO, and thanks Soup for the crossword (I was happy that parts i found obscure were all fairly clued so Oi’ll give it a 7) and for dropping in – I thought there may be something goin on with quite a few less common words but had no hope of spotting what, so am glad you revealed all. [I am delighted to learn that the wonderfully-named Prof Gog is a mathmo – looking at her bio I would be very interested in her view of the Covid years!]

  88. Ted@85
    HAIR
    Fibre that’s heavier? Oddly not! –If you consider the clue-as-def, it works (admit it is a bit loose).
    The wordplay is in the middle. Not quite elegant, one might say!
    Going by the comments, there aren’t many takers for the ‘not’, I agree.

  90. Me again. Thanks for the comments and for the bump-up to my perceived rating of it! Comments noted, particularly in reference to definitions – I have been told by others sometimes that I suffer from Thesauritis, where a synonym given in the thesaurus may not quite match the solution, even though it’s close. SECOND/DELEGATE is a case in point. Could have been tighter.

    I’d meant HAIR to be a very simple miss-out-odd-letters, no CD in it, though I guess there is a bit of one. Maybe I should have missed out the !.

    Cactophile@89: virtually all sport leaves me cold as well. Doesn’t mean I can’t clue with it, though! I see crosswords as simply using words as bunches of letters, rather than in particular categories, so if I have to go and look up tools used in pyramid making or footballers or the anatomy of crustacea, I’ve learnt something. All fun.

    On a wider note, if anyone really doesn’t like a puzzle, it’s only a crossword, and there’ll be another one along tomorrow 🙂

    H/S

    PS Gages are named after Lord Gage, who introduced them to the UK, in Bury St Edmund’s. Cambridge Gage is an excellent variety local to me. I think Reine Claude is the French for ‘Greengage’ in general, rather than a specific variety. They make the most marvellous jam, to which the addition of the juice of an orange and a handful of walnuts is greatly to be recommended.

  91. I thoroughly enjoyed this puzzle so thank you to Soup. As an average level
    solver I was delighted to be able to parse every solution. A rare thing in this house.
    Favourite was BISH. Simply because it took me back to the marvellous Jennings series by Anthony Buckeridge.

  92. My word this was a toughie! Fortunately it’s 39 degrees in this corner of southwest France today so I’ve been mostly indoors with cold drinks close at hand, and needed a fun way to pass the siesta period. Which this certainly was.
    I mistakenly understood 11D to mean the final third of “phrase” wasn’t to be used, and spent a goodly while trying to work phra in. Crossers put me straight – eventually.
    The academics theme sailed way over my head, but I don’t mind: I completed it – that’s the part I’m proud of!
    Thank you PeterO for the help finishing off several parsings, and a big thanks to Soup for the entertainment and for the frequent comments and explanations.
    As for favourite-lines from the great Lehrer Irish ballad, mine has always been:
    “The water tasted bad for a week,
    And they had to make do with gin”

  93. Wellbeck@92: I genuinely wouldn’t have expected anyone at all to get the academics – it was just for my own amusement and a way to find words to fit in the grid. Amusingly I had an email from a colleague at Queens’ who solved it before he knew names were hidden. Even with the college name in a clue he still had no idea…!

  94. For HAIR I think the issue with “oddly not” = miss out odd letters , will mean miss out 1,3 ,5 ,7 for some peolple .This leaves EVE as the (incorrect ) answer.

  95. Hamish/Soup @ 93: tbh I rarely spot themes – and when I do, it tends to be so late in proceedings that it’s no help. However, hearing about your colleague at Queens’ makes me feel a lot better! Thanks!

  97. This was about 50% above my pay grade at present, but it was extremely useful to hear Hamish/Soup let us know that only words in general use are part of the puzzle. It lets me know my own inadequacies of daily conversation.

    I did enjoy the 50% I managed to get though, so thanks!

  98. I’m puzzled by Hamish/Soup @90’s explanation of 22ac, “I’d meant HAIR to be a very simple miss-out-odd-letters,” and the similar comment by KVa @88. The problem is that it’s the even letters that go missing, not the odd ones.

  99. HAIR – it sort of works if you pause after “oddly” , so you do take 1, 3 , 5 ,7. The not! is then a comment on the whole clue implying that hair is not actually a fibre that is heavier.
    Perhaps removing not! makes it simpler and better.

  100. Smot@97 – I said that I know, not that are in general use! Unsure of the last time I used Bish. Or garrison. Or many others.

  101. A solid 8/10 for me. Nothing in the vocab to trouble me, and I don’t have O level Latin or German (the De La Salle Brothers who ran my secondary school knew that Germany had given the world Luther and the Reformation, whereas Spain gave it Torquemada and teh Inquisition. Our second foreign language option was therefoe Spanish). Not a hope of noticing the academic – if they’d been academics at UCL in the 1980s I might have had a chance! But as a setter myself I know how enjoyable setting oneself that sort of challenge can be. As far as apostrophes go, the road I live in is St Johns Terrace at one end and St John’s Terrace at the other.
    Looking forward to your next one.

  102. pserve_[2@40 and Lord Jim@64
    Two tutors who tooted the flute
    Tried to tutor two tutors to toot.
    Said the two to the turors
    “Is it harder to toot or
    To tutor two tutors to toot?”

    H/S@90 Seems to me that HAIR is “miss out the events,” no?

  103. I admired the irony of the surface of 25A, since the proposition that there is no Butlin’s in Istanbul would come as no surprise whatsoever — quite the opposite. Skegness on the Golden Horn!
    By coincidence, I happened to solve 16A immediately after 8A, so it was jarring to be instructed to reverse e.g. (first as “such as” then as “perhaps”) twice in a row.
    Theologically speaking, to request is probably not the same as to PRAY, the first being self-serving, the latter being directed towards the divine.

  104. Quite a tricky one from Hamish, but I think I got there in the end. I’m chuffed that I wrote in DELEGATE without having to look up who ‘Alli’ is – the ‘beautiful game’ isn’t really my thing – but didn’t the Lionesses do us proud – well done!

    I knew at once what a TRUG is – as a keen mushroom-hunter I know it’s the best container in which to carry your haul home without them bruising. Alas! the lack of rain means there aren’t many about yet this year…

    Didn’t take long to hit on BISH: I think I must have read the word in the Jennings Goes To School books years ago – along with lovely phrases like ‘fossilised fishhooks’. Dated but perfectly good.

    I won’t add to the debate on ENGAGE except to say that I raised two or three eyebrows…

    Thanks to Soup and Peter.

  105. Andrew@103. Yes, theologically speaking that would be true. But my Oxford thesaurus gives, under PRAY beseech, ask, entreat, implore, request…. The list goes on.

    An interesting variation is the archaic prithee, which derives from “I pray thee” and is an interjection, according to Chambers, “used in expressing desires, requests, etc”: pray, please.

  106. Andrew@103 – I think PRAY as ‘request’ is legitimate, in phrases like “Pray silence for the Mayor” or similar. It doesn’t have to be religious.

  107. Thanks both for an enjoyable challenge and solution. Just floored by Bish,, for which we entered Pish, expecting it to be wrong but failing to find the answer.

    I’m intrigued to know whether Geoff down Under, you want a crossword with fewer esoteric (and more exoteric) words or just wish your vocabulary was larger! 😉

  108. I felt like I was bashing my way through an impenetrable wall here, with UKisms, GK, and foreign or archaic words all over the place. I eventually gave up and revealed PAGEBOY, which I probably wouldn’t have solved anyway. I can’t say that this was fun for me.

  109. Thanks PeterO and Soup ! A dnf for me as I ran out of stamina and revealed the final three, but an excellent workout nonetheless. I was always going to get Dele Alli instantly as he grew up a few hundred yards from my house, although I wasn’t aware of him until many years later.

  110. Valentine@102 – well spotted for TOOTER/TUTOR/TUTEE
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick_(song)
    …is mostly X-Rated and obscene – don’t click on it if you’re easily offended – but has that verse (almost) in a section at the end with a U-certificate:
    ‘There is a version of this song which is rendered for children. Three verses are as follows:
    A canner exceedingly canny | One morning remarked to his granny | A canner can can | Anything that he can | But a canner can’t can a can, can he?
    A tutor who tooted the flute | Tried to tutor two Tudors to toot | Said the two to the tutor | Is it tougher to toot, or | To tutor two Tudors to toot?
    A flea and a fly in a flue, | Were stuck there, so what could they do? | Said the fly, “Let us flee!”, | Said the flea, “Let us fly!”,| So they flew through a flaw in the flue.’

  112. Didn’t do the crossword till late evening yesterday and indulging in these pages would have made for a late night …

    Like a number of others, I thought Soup’s 6/10 was very underrated. My and my partner’s first soup course … we hadn’t been intending to keep going, but we thoroughly enjoyed the puzzle and the very clear guidance. Didn’t have any issue with any of the words, and the signposting in any case was very clear. I misparsed TORQUE, as I thought it was R for regina and persuaded myself that (a) a toque as a chef’s hat is rather like a broad band and (b) I googled torque and read about torque split ratio. Q non ED. Last one in was KITTENS. Didn’t know TENS, but got it from kit and animals. Took us too long to realise ‘clobber’ was kit rather than hit. Very many enjoyable realisations – DELEGATE, STAR SIGN, GLOVE, PAGEBOY, enjoyed the repetitions in TUTEE/TOOTER and QUEEN, QUEENS in answers and clueing. Thanks Soup! Looking forward to your next.

  114. Yes Me @39. Are you referring to the fact that the body in charge of Cambridge University Press is the Syndics whereas in the other place the equivalent group is the Delegates?

    “Fibre that’s oddly heavier” would have been a simpler construction for 22ac.

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