Guardian Prize 29,237 / Imogen

43 comments on “Guardian Prize 29,237 / Imogen”

1. This required two sittings, but couldn’t figure out in the second one why I had any difficulties in the first. In the end I had more trouble with the English words than the foreign ones.

   ERASTOTHENES as Man with Sieve was very clever. I didn’t know HAUT-DE-SEINE, but it was the only French-sounding phrase I could concoct after a bunch of rearranging of the given letters. I might have done it more quickly if I had waited till I had plenty of crossers. The surface was great.

   If “PLUM job” = “desirable job”, then plum=desirable, surely, and we have the odd-job left looking for a partner.

   At first I thought “girl with large teapots” might be a euphemism I hadn’t heard of, but apparently that’s just wishful thinking.

   Thanks I&E

2. For a while I had BALLOON for 24 across, something you can also blow! BALL also being a singer of sorts!
   Also never knew who crossword land’s favourite muse was, so another Greek tragedy for me!
   Other than that pretty straightforward.
   Small point, but on 1 down you missed the ‘A’ out for the wordplay.

3. Got all and parsed them, except for ERATOSTHENES. I forgive myself.

4. Well, I had not previously come across the French art gambit, and not knowing about the chap with the sieve either, despite A-level Maths, I had to build the answer up from the crossers and wordplay, so a good deal of head scratching had been done before the centime dropped. I did wonder how other solvers living in countries where French is not widely taught as a second language, and who sometimes protest about the knowledge of French assumed in these crosswords, would react to one in which, besides HAUTS-DE-SEINE and ENTRE NOUS, they needed to be able to conjugate the verb, être.

   However, if indeed ‘French art’ = ES is to be found in the setter’s toolbox, has Paul or any other compiler come up with this, which, perhaps not to my credit, almost immediately sprang to mind? ‘Try out French art – it’s bollocks (6)’.

5. Thanks Eileen. After I had written the NW corner in right away I thought this was going to be a walk in the park but I was soon disabused of that with the like of ERATOSTENES which had me resorting to Google. I wasn’t unhappy, as I have observed before, one of the real pleasures I get here is learning something new.
   I shared your misgiving with ‘tiny’. LOI was ENTRE NOUS, it had to be the answer of course but I couldn’t get past the divorce hub being the letter O and I’ve been to Reno too, though not for legal separation.

6. Thank you Eileen for your explanations and all the extras for the enlightenment of non-classicists such as myself.
   As a linguist and a cryptic afficionado, I particularly liked the etymology of clue in your link on ARIADNE.

   Antonknee @2 another one desperately holding on to the balloon before BASSOON hit me loud and clear.

7. spooner’s catflap, @4, French art is in my cryptic etui, a collection from many setters. My French is almost as poor as my ability to do searches on this site for previous instances, but I’m sure someone will come up with examples.

8. Regarding es, a clue I saw long ago but has stuck with me is:
   Supremely elated once called about French art (7)
   You have to also know the word hight, meaning (to Shakespeare) “is called”.
   Put them together and you get HIGHEST.

9. Thanks, Eileen and Imogen. I remember taking a few goes to finish this one off, but without any real holdups. Like Spooner’s Catflap @ 4 I did wonder about the French requirements here. I feel I might have seen ‘French art’ = ‘es’ before, but had to work it out after the event. (Are kids still taught “I am, thou art, he/she/it is”, etc.? when learning English? I suspect not.) I did know of the Sieve of Eratosthenes, however. As a way of finding prime numbers, it used to need sufficient computing power that it used to be commonly used as a benchmark for comparing computers, particularly by BYTE magazine, I think. To the extent that it was believed that some compilers- not Imogen and his ilk, but the programs that generate computer instructions from human-written code – were designed to spot an Eratosthenes sieve and generate particularly efficient instructions for it. Not unlike, say, Volkswagen software spotting a car is having its emissions tested and producing cleaner than usual results in response.
   My LOI was EDICT – which I thought was really neat, but which I took ages to see.

10. My post not appearing for some reason …

11. Ok, I’ll try again. Ucn always rely on Im for a bit of the scholarly, and on Eileen for being up to the job. Not so the plodder chez ginf, who filled it all in but with several what thes, eg the sieve bloke, the suburbs, the bent minus b, and more, hey ho. Ta both.

12. All I did was use “what the” instead of a ruder acronym … Is there a bit of AI doing the censoring?

13. You have a slight eerror in 11a CLIMB, probably due to being rushed, bit it’s obvious what you meant Eileen.
    This took me into Monday, but no complaints about that thanks both for the entertainment.

14. Thanks, Eileen. I started easily, but struggled at the end, particularly with Eratosthenes, my LOI. ‘French art’ was new to me.

    At 3d, a DEB was a girl presented to the monarch at court in London. There is an amusing film of Edward VIII, in his single summer as king, looking very bored as these overdressed debutantes troop past him. The late queen ended this in the 50s, influenced by Prince Philip, who called it all absurd.

15. Tough but fair and enjoyable, just what you want from a Prize. Thanks Imogen and Eileen. I did remember the French art trick, but it was the only bit of ERATOSTHENES I could parse – being no mathematician I also needed a wordfinder to confirm him and then Google for the sieve. No complaints: he was interesting to discover.

    I suppose the “young man” convention for son is no more annoying than “old man” for father or “old lady” for mother or even worse, wife. That is, like many other crossword clichés, they all are when you think about them, but they’re very handy for setters! Talking of clichés, it’s been a while since I’ve seen the Crossword Eagle, the ERNE.

16. Who knows ginf @12. I reckon AI (what the…) will be the death of us. I’m praying for Christ’s return more often these days.
    ERATOSTHENES went in early for me. I guess that happens if you have read a lot of books by Martin Gardner like me. Favourites for me were FIRESIDE, a simple clue which shows you don’t have to be complicated to end in a satisfying clue, and EDICT which was just clever. I really admire Imogen’s surfaces and hope I can learn from them.

17. Technically I failed because my sub conscience wrote in Ngaio Marsh’s DIED IN THE WOOL, the very first whodunit I ever read. I’ve always remembered it and was captivated, it set off a lifetime in the company of crime fiction for me but no-one since has quite enthralled me as did Roderick Alleyn.

18. I found this tough and did not get the last couple in the SE. But although it took me a while I did enjoy it.

    Favourites were: MISTRUST, SIDEBURNS, PLENUM, LUDIC, NICOTINE

    Thanks Imogen and Eileen

19. Thanks Eileen, and hope you enjoy the big day! I think FL for floor is seen often enough on signs in department stores or office blocks. Strangely I found the French came to mind more readily than the maths though the French art did take a while to click. I agree on your and other comments of the manifold possibilities for misdirection eg I spent a while trying to get EB(on)Y into 20a somewhere, having the first E. Speaking of which I thought “an ‘E'” would have been more precise in 17a without harming the surface but no matter. Agree with Gladys – son/young man are both used by me when mildly admonishing. This was a very rewarding midweek multiple sitting solve, thanks Imogen.

20. Thanks Imogen and Eileen

    I biffed in the sieve guy using a good proportion of my mathematical GK afte Id spotted the Muse (who i thought was called ERATO, so another black mark) so the finer points of French grammar eluded me. Hope i will remember for again.

    An enjoyable puzzle! Thanks all concerned.

21. Thanks, Antonknee and nicbach – errors corrected now.

    Epeesharkey @20 – no black mark! The Muse is Erato: there’s an apostrophe s in the clue. 😉

22. Agree with your first para comment, Dr. WhatsOn@1, this one took two sittings for me too. I almost didn’t come back when I got no across clues the first time around, having also tried a couple of downs as well to no avail. But then even though I found this one challenging, it was much smoother sailing when I tried again today, realising it was the day for the publication of the blog.
    I did need help with a couple of parses so I appreciated the thorough untangling of the solutions. Thanks, Eileen, for your hard work and time expended producing the blog when you have had the Christmas Tree Festival on your plate too. I hope it’s been a wonderful day of celebration.
    I also really liked 10a INDICES, 17a HAUTS DE SEINE (“ease the undies” indeed!) and 3d SIDEBURNS (“hair extensions” -ha ha!)
    Thanks very much to Imogen.
    [I feel like Eileen mentioned once that if she had become a setter rather than a blogger, she she might well have taken the pseudonym ARIADNE (9a) Or have I made up that story?].

23. Tough but enjoyable. I like Imogen’s clear clueing style and surfaces.

    New for me: LUDIC, ERATOSTHENES.

    I could not parse 24ac apart rom BASS = singer – ah, that’s a great clue!

    Thanks, both.

24. For me, the best Saturday puzzle for a long time, full of good constructions, surfaces and misdirections. Fortunately I had no problem with the French language or geography – except that I had forgotten the ‘art’ device and my LOI was ERATOSTHENES from the crossers (definite PDM, as I knew his prime number method) and only parsed him subsequently.

    Favourites as Eileen, though ARIADNE was a write-in from the def, plus DYED-IN-THE-WOOL, LUDIC and HAUTS-DE-SEINE. Practically everything, in fact.

    Many thanks to Imogen and Eileen

25. Just before I go – well remembered, Julie @22!

    Re French art: I’ve tried unsuccessfully a number of times to find the Araucaria clue for TEA CHEST (which has occurred several times recently as an answer) – my first encounter with it. It involved a French Art tutor, as I remember.

26. Many thanks for the parsing of 6down LUDIC. I had LC (Lord Chancellor – but not any more) as Law Lord and spent too long trying to put something for ILL in middle (at heart). Could not see why ILL lead to UDI ( or in desperation before crosser YRI

    Thanks Setter and Blogger

27. Eileen@25: I believe Araucaria’s clue was quite simply “ Art teacher? “ with the solution “ teachest”. ( as in thou art teacher / thou teachest).

28. An excellent pu?zle an a lovely blog. ARIADNE and INDICES were among my favorites. ARIADNE is a lovely metaphor for both setter and blogger.[interesting that in one version of the myth she provides a clue and in another a light]

29. Didn’t get the Greek bloke until half-way through dog walk on Thursday and had to google to confirm

    I thought this was exactly the level that the prize should be set at

    I suppose son and young man can be synonymous in a kind of patronising way: “now listen son/young man”

    Cheers E&I

30. Spooner’s catflap @4. I don’t think it’s specifically French that compilers expect some knowledge of. We quite often see clues requiring a smattering of Spanish, Italian and German. (Mind you, maori’s pushing it a bit far, even if it’s only part of spot-the-nina.) Also, if it’s any consolation, it took me ages to spot Hauts-de-Seine, even though I live there!

31. Eileen@25 – https://www.theguardian.com/crosswords/2005/oct/17/how-to-solve-crosswords – Colin Dexter liked it, too – “Art master (8)”

32. I thought this was more straightforward than some of Imogen’s previous efforts.

    I liked the misleading surface for CLIMB, FLANNEL for the unusual fl., the O ON of BASSOON, the clever &lit for DYED-IN-THE-WOOL, and HANGERS-ON for the parasites in hospital. I DNK the sieve man but pieced him together from the wordplay.

    Thanks Imogen and Eileen.

33. It also appears in The Chambers Crossword Dictionary, 3rd edition(2012) with a helpful hint ‘… Art master (8) Think old English’

34. Thanks Imogen and Eileen. I knew of the sieve man but couldn’t recall his name let alone his spelling. I was also another BALLOON blower temporarily. Needed help from here for a few parsings. Anybody else try to find a dictator called FLANCE?

35. Enjoyed this, although I did resort to word search in quite a few cases.

    20ac, ENTRE NOUS: didn’t see where ENT came from, iirc, but guessed the answer from the def and then recognised RENO as “divorce capital.

    23ac, FLANNEL: re fl, I think gazzh@19 has it.

    Top marks for the &lit DYED-IN-THE-WOOL.

    Loved the pun for INDISPENSABLE.

36. It was nice to get started with DYED-IN-THE-WOOL, the enumeration helping just as much as the anagram fodder. ERATOSTHENES the ‘sieve’ man (and much more than that, as has been noted) came soon after.

    Altogether, a delightful Prize crossword with a variety of twists and tricks in the clues. My favourites corresponded pretty much with those that Eileen highlighted in her introduction.

    Thanks to Imogen and Eileen.

37. An enjoyable struggle with some nice surfaces. I thought it was simple at first, doing the across clues, but came to halt at 13a, which was my LOI. I ended up Googling ARETOSTHENES in the knowlege that, if it was wrong, I would get a message asking “did you mean……?” There were so many elements in this clue that were capable of different interpretation – was “inspiring figure” the definition, did “inspiring” indicate an envelope (possibly with “es”, which I did get, as the outer letters), was “figure” a number (one or ten, commonly, though I have seen eight), was there a synonym of sieve that would fit, and more? The actual definition was no use at all in solving.
    Similarly with 17a. If the answer to “Paris suburbs” isn’t “banlieues” I’m lost but in this case the wordplay was simple enough.
    14d I agree with you, Eileen, about sons not being young men. I’ve two of my own. On the other hand, I’ve been addressed as “young man” myself in the past year so maybe I shouldn’t complain.
    Thanks to Imogen and Eileen

38. A very good puzzle, and an odd experience – the first three quarters went in very steadily, but I was totally defeated by the top right corner. ERATOSTHENES was beyond my ken (as were all its components other than THEN), I’d not heard of LUDIC (though I should’ve got it from the clear and clever wordplay) and I just couldn’t see the tricky MISTRUST or (the slightly dodgy) PLENUM. Of the ones I did get, I thought ARIADNE and DYED-IN-THE-WOOL were tremendous. Thanks to Imogen for the challenge, and to Eileen for the much-needed blog!

39. Blaise @30: as one of the official French objectors, I’d elaborate that French is different from the smattering of German, Italian, and so on that you’re expected to know, in both quantity and quality. In those other languages, the setter wants you to know at most a few articles and prepositions–if you’re familiar with the titles of a few operas, you know enough German and Italian to skate. But a solver of a British crossword is actually expected to know a fair number of substantive words in French.

    In this puzzle, the only one that annoyed me was HAUTS-DE-SEINE, but as has been said earlier, that’s the only arrangement of those letters that results in good French, once you have a few crossing letters. ENTRE NOUS is one of those phrases that’s worked its way into English, so it’s fair (and finding RENO in there was clever). And the French art trick depends on some very basic French that those who haven’t studied the language will likely still have picked up. So I’m not objecting too loudly this time!

    In American crosswords, you’d probably be annoyed at how much Spanish you’re expected to know!

40. [Oh, speaking of operas, ARIADNE auf Naxos is one of my favorites. Not really about Ariadne–it’s an opera about people putting on an opera about Ariadne (with, for bizarre reasons, a commedia dell’arte troupe along for the ride.) It’s not quite as funny as that makes it sound, but golly is there a lot of beautiful music.]

41. Thank you all for the comments – and particularly Larry @27 (also FrankieG @31) for locating the elusive Araucaria clue that has been bugging me for years (and turns out to have been misremembered and nothing to do with French art at all! I’m sure, though, that there have been several other clues for TEA CHEST that did.)

    I accept all the comments re ‘son’ and was particularly touched by Pino’s comment @37 – he has admitted to being the same age as me 😉 – which gave me an opportunity to quote the last two lines of Araucaria’s poetic tribute to Rufus, on his 80th birthday:
    ‘Remember this, young master Squires:
    No cruciverbalist retires.’.

    [Thanks, too, for the good wishes for our Festival. An exhausting – but hugely rewarding – day, with almost a thousand very happy adults and children through our church doors today – and many more to come tomorrow afternoon.]

42. The usual convention seems to be to clue personal names in charades as ‘boy’ or ‘girl’ as appropriate, rather than ‘man’ or woman’. There’s no logic to this, as with many crossword tropes, but ‘young man’ for ‘son’ does fit the pattern 🙂

43. I took a few sittings to solve all of this, with the northeast corner going in last. I was out doing something else when LUDIC suddenly sprang to mind as fitting the wordplay and tying into knowing Ludo is named from the Latin word for play, which was the key to confirming PLENUM and MISTRUST giving me enough crossers for NICOTINE, which I know is a poison but isn’t the first thing I link together . I had to look up ERATOSTHENES as I hadn’t heard of him.

    Eileen, I keep wondering if you and I live in the same place as I’ve also spent the day supporting our Tree Festival and one of the stalls on market on the High Street, plus various bits of preparations in advance over the last week or so, and I remember our Tree Festivals coincided last year too.

    Thank you to Eileen and Imogen.

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