Guardian Cryptic 29,337 by Picaroon

82 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 29,337 by Picaroon”

1. I really enjoyed this and spotting the theme straightaway after solving PALISADE made this easier than it probably would have been, although it felt a bit like cheating. It certainly helped with the unheard of LEMMAS, TELEOST and TRIANON. I really liked ANORAK, JAMMED alongside HENDRIX, DOWNSTREAM, UTAHAN and LATINA. I thought the SW was going to defeat me as earlier in the week, but I eventually pushed through. Excellent end to a tough week.

   Ta Picaroon & manehi.

2. A few NHOs but all impeccably clued. Top ticks for PARLIAMENT, ESTEEMS & LATINA for the wonderful surface alone

   I like clues where even when you’ve guessed the construction it still takes a while to tease out the answer e.g. PALISADE, LOW END

   Cheers P&M

3. Tough puzzle – I was possibly not on the setter’s wavelength and the grid was not helpful. It was like doing 4 mini-puzzles, corner by corner. Lower half was easier for me. Theme did not help me much but I did see it after I had solved all clues of the LHS. Solved the NE corner last.

   New for me: LEMMA (or if I ever knew this word I had forgotten it); GANNET = greedy person; UTAHAN; TELEOST.
   New spelling for me: MONICKER.

   Favourites: LATINA, PARLIAMENT, BALD, HENDRIX, DOWNSTREAM.

   Thanks, both.

4. Absolutely delightful! So many enjoyable clues. There were a few I hadn’t heard of — MALLARMÉ, LEMMAS, GANNET (in this sense) — and I needed considerable help with 17a, having never heard of the fish nor the river. I liked the theme. It didn’t help me to solve any, but it was often useful for verification.

5. Tricky and very enjoyable

   Many thanks to Picaroon and Manehi

6. Thanks for the extra info on GANNET. It was the only one where I wasn’t sure of my parsing. TELEOST was new to me, but the River Test is a setters favourite. Other than that, a fun workout. I don’t know if the theme helped or hindered, in the end I went back and looked for all the names when I’d completed the puzzle.

   Thanks Picaroon & manehi and happy Friday, everyone!

7. Most enjoyable. The fairly well signposted theme came to the rescue with the loi TRIANON.

   DNK nag and jade but still getable through fair cluing.

   Lots of fun which is something of a relief after the last few days of flog.

   Many thanks, both.

8. Phew! After the two tough preceding Guardian Cryptics this was more my level. The girls and boys come out to play…though after inserting the final two pairs of interlocking MALLARME and TELEOSTE, and LEMMAS and LATINA I had to Google them as my GK wasn’t quite up to those. The rest was a Joy, just to add another name to the mix…

9. Thanks Picaroon and manehi!
   Quite an enjoyable puzzle! A detailed and neat blog!
   Top faves: MIDDLE NAME, MONICKER, JAMMED, RIND and RICK.
   JAMMED
   Someone could say JAM by the side of MED doesn’t work in a down clue?

10. Thanks Picaroon and manehi
    Tut tut, Picaroon – “enormity” doesn’t mean something very big, but something very bad; ” great crime”, for instance (though it is an increasingly common mistake).
    I was fooled for some time with 8a, trying to anagram “china” rather than “a side”.
    I liked PARLIAMENT, and I would have liked LATINA if I hadn’t needed Google for Shakira (I did know who Lana Turner was, though!)

11. Another good puzzle from Picaroon. Unfriendly grid but the explicit theme was very helpful. Luckily there were no words here that I didn’t know (though several that I have never had reason to use myself !)

    Lots of good clues here; PALISADE, PARLIAMENT, RIND and ESTEEMS were my pick of the bunch.

    Thanks to the Pirate and manehi

12. muffin@10 – ‘hugeness’ is also given as a definition of enormity in Chambers. Lovely puzzle, lots to enjoy as always from Picaroon.

13. I agree with muffin @10 – though it is a lost cause! Dictionaries always acknowledge usage, too readily for my liking…

14. Thanks for the blog Manehi. 16 down should be AC short for account.

15. Lovely puzzle – great fun to solve!

    Lots of ticks as usual but I think I’ll go along with Gervase’s top handful. (I had to like the Leicester thoroughfare!)

    Many thanks to Picaroon and manehi. (Re 11ac: Picaroon does say that each other across clue has the name in the middle. 😉 )

16. Lovely stuff. I spotted LEN rather than LENA in 11ac, although it’s still not dead centre.

    Didn’t know the fish, nor where the River Test was, but it was the only one I could think of that fit. Also didn’t realise MONIKER could be spelled like that!

    Thanks Manehi & Picaroon.

17. [Ed @13: if dictionaries just told us what words ‘ought’ to mean, we would never understand what real people are actually saying.]

18. Not mad keen on “lemma” = “theorem”. Mathematicians use lemmas as steps to proving a theorem. Propositions would perhaps work better.

19. Great puzzle and he gateway clue also contains a name or two but neither are in the middle

    I got held up by thinking of an old standard called

    “U Thant take that away from me”(blame Benny Green and the New Statesman for that
    so that made the fun last longer
    Thanks JB and manehi.

20. Excellent puzzle.
    And the icing on the cake is the scattering of names in the clues, eg Grant, Jade, Romeo, Nigella, etc

21. Nicely in the sweet spot for me today, and the MIDDLE NAMES were useful to confirm some entries. LEMMAS and TELEOSTs are both species hitherto unknown to me, but fairly clued and gettable, and there were some nice pdm’s as the required meanings of Leicester and diet emerged.

    Once again Chambers lets a wrong definition off the hook: dictionaries are descriptive, so if enough people start to believe that enormity=HUGENESS (which it sounds as if it ought to), and use it that way, the dictionary records it and into the crossword it goes. And I wince. Rant over.

22. I think this would have been more fun as a ghost theme,
    if 11a MIDDLE NAME had been clued without the ‘(which each other across answer has here)’,
    leaving us to solve the puzzle without possible extra help,
    and then play spot the MONICKER.
    Thanks P&M

23. Eileen @15: I didn’t spot ‘each other’, so that makes it slightly confusing now. FrankieG @22: I had the same thought, although I’d probably still be trying to solve the puzzle! 😉

24. Muffin @10 in a strange twist of fate one of Shakira’s hits had a commonly misheard lyric that involved a comparison between her bosom and muffins

    Michelle @3 I’m guessing you’re familiar with the related term dilemma? Something else I learned here 🙂

25. MIDDLE NAME
    manehi’s intro says
    …in each of the across solutions, there is a hidden name.
    If it is changed a bit to read
    …in each of the other across solutions, there is a hidden name,
    then it gets less confusing?

26. Very good indeed.
    TRIANON and MALLARME were unknown but they both seemed vaguely familiar so I’ve probably come across them at some time in tha past.
    GANNET is maybe UK-specific slang, and is a little puzzling since gannets aren’t especially greedy birds (particularly if compared to superficially similar gulls). But I suppose their feeding behaviour is what most people know them for.
    ENORMITY implies something bad in a very big way, so the clue works for me (‘the enormity/HUGENESS of the crime’).
    I think the LENA in MIDDLE NAME is more a coincidence that deliberate – the clue does say ‘each other across answer’.
    As well as all these, I liked RICK and HENDRIX and several others.
    My only niggle was ‘shows’ in the IRRITATE clue – helps the surface but otherwise redundant and I thought a bit clunky.
    Thanks Picaroon and manehi.

27. me@25
    I confused it more 😀
    …a MIDDLE NAME hidden?

    FrankieG@22
    That would have been fun (of course only when someone explained it later to me!)

28. I knew MALLARME from the (famous?) Debussy work mentioned in the link manehi gave.

29. Hovis@18: A lemma is a theorem in itself, i.e. a proved proposition. The name reflects its use as a stepping-stone to a larger proof (from Greek meaning ‘horn’ as seen in ‘dilemma’ or two-horned).

    I agree with Muffin regarding the meaning of ‘enormity’, though it didn’t stop me solving the clue.

30. Thanks Picaroon & manehi. That was fun.
    24d had me thinking of Charles Foster Kane before I saw RICK.
    Like that HENDRIX JAMMED.
    Favourites PALISADE, DOWNSTREAM & PARLIAMENT

31. Re ‘enormity’, the SOED gives as its fourth definition: ‘Enormous size, enormousness; daunting magnitude. Frequently considered erroneous. From late 1800s’ – and then gives a couple of examples of this usage, from the Times and the Listener.

    Personally I consider the word rather a cliche and I wouldn’t use it in any context 🙂

32. Me @31: The primary meaning of ‘enormity’ is ‘a great crime’ or ‘wickedness’, but it is not commonly used this way. We would rarely see: ‘he committed an enormity’. Instead we hear expressions like ‘the enormity of his crime’, which itself is historically erroneous….

33. Disaster. Only 3 answers and rest totally impenetrable.

34. Another fine composition from Picaroon.

    I thought that ESTEEM was well-hidden and enjoyed the wordplays for PARLIAMENT and DOWNSTREAM. I also liked RICK where at the beginning I thought (Harry) Kane’s 11 would be side.

    Despite what the Chambers dictionary says, the Chambers Thesaurus says this:

    enormity or enormousness?
    Of these two nouns, only enormousness should be used when referring to size: the enormousness of his ambitions. Enormity means ‘great wickedness, seriousness (of a crime, etc)’: the enormity of his assault on the little girl.

35. Wynsum@30 I was also thinking of Citizen Kane and Rosebud for 24 down. Today’s more my level than preceding two days – thanks Picaroon and manehi

36. Enormity is in transition from its original meaning (something very bad) to what will probably be its new meaning (something very big). No wonder dictionaries and thesauruses (thesauri?) disagree.

37. In my experience, most people equate enormity with hugeness and are unaware of any other meaning. Language evolves, and dictionaries describe rather than prescribe.

38. oed,com ‘ENORMITY 1. †
    1.a. a1538–1865 Divergence from a normal standard or type; abnormality, irregularity. Obsolete or archaic.
    1.b. a1513–1781† concrete. Something that is abnormal; an irregularity, extravagance, eccentricity. Obsolete.
    2.a. c1480– Deviation from moral or legal rectitude. In later use influenced by enormous adj. 3: Extreme or monstrous wickedness.
    2.b. 1477– concrete. A breach of law or morality; a transgression, crime; in later use, a gross and monstrous offence.
    3.a. 1792– Large size or scale; hugeness, vastness. Use of enormity in this sense has sometimes been criticized, e.g.:
    1966 Many of you misuse the word ‘enormity’. Theodore Bernstein, managing editor of The New York Times, keeps pointing out to his staff that ‘enormity means wickedness or outrageousness, and is not normally used to denote great size’. Redding (California) Record-Searchlight 12 February 8/1
    3.b. 1825– concrete. Something enormous. (humorous.)’
    So people have been getting it “wrong” since 1792, and having it pointed out to them since 1966.

39. In support of gladys @36 and GDU @37, the ODE says this:

    Enormity traditionally means ‘the extreme scale or seriousness of something bad or morally wrong’, as in ‘residents of the town were struggling to deal with the enormity of the crime’. Today, however, a more neutral sense as a synonym for hugeness or immensity, as in ‘he soon discovered the enormity of the task’, is common. Some people regard this use as wrong, arguing that enormity in its original sense meant ‘a crime’ and should therefore continue to be used only of contexts in which a negative moral judgement is implied. Nevertheless, the sense is now broadly accepted in standard English, although it generally relates to something difficult, such as a task, challenge, or achievement

    And Collins says this:

    In modern English, it is common to talk about the enormity of something such as a task or a problem, but one should not talk about the enormity of an object or area: distribution is a problem because of India’s enormous size (not India’s enormity)

40. Fowler’s ‘Modern English Usage’ (2nd ed):

    Enormous, enormity. The two words have drifted so far apart that the use of either in connexion (sic) with the limited sense of the other is unadvisable. ‘Enormous sin’ and ‘The impression of enormity produced by the building’ are both etymologically possible expressions; but the use of the first lays one open to suspicion of pedantry, and of the second to suspicion of ignorance. ‘The enormity of the destruction suffered during the war’. ‘Enormousness’ is not a pretty word, but the writer could have found a way out by writing ‘vastness’ or ‘enormous extent’

41. Have drunk quite a bit of cheap, and the odd bit of old 🙂

42. Today I helped lead a cultural tour of rural Viet Nam. This involves bicycles, markets, coffee shops and beer stops in the hinterland. Thís afternoon I managed to solve this. Several words I’ve not heard òf and contorted thinking aside, well contorted thinking í what it’s all about, I’m proud of myself.
    Thanks to all

43. Sorry, but I’m still a little drunk.

44. Good fun and helped immensely by the theme.

    I particularly liked DOWNSTREAM and PARLIAMENT for their neat, economic surfaces.

    Thanks Picaroon and manehi

45. Very enjoyable as the Preamble says. I like the way Picaroon comes up with novel twists for us to enjoy – here, the hidden “middle” names.
    The aforementioned 4d HENDRIX was definitely my top favourite, with its clever positioning as previously noted coming straight after the musicians who JAMMED at 3d. Thanks to Picaroon and manehi.
    [I actually missed the name check, grantinfreo@41, but loved your post!]

46. poc@ I think the greek word dilemma translates as ‘double proposition’
    grantinfreo@41 😄

    re ENORMITY:
    Have we accepted ‘enormous’ to mean huge simply because its usage evolved a longer time ago? Or was it that something ‘outside of the norm/rule/precept’ was already in Roman times akin to ‘egregious’ or ‘outstanding’, then as in ‘great’?

47. When I read “each other” in 11a I wondered if that was a new (to me) way of saying “every other”, in the sense of alternating, but was disabused of this as the solving proceeded.

    Excellent puzzle. I was half expecting to see here some objections to grant=lend, but so far not the case. I checked Chambers online and saw some attempt to describe one sense of lend as give, but the giving seemed very temporary (e.g. lend me your ears), unlike grant which is permanent. So still not 100% convinced.

48. That was a relief after the last two. Fun. Thanks.

49. Oh, dear, all this fuss and bother about the meaning of ENORMITY. I fondly remember the traditional folk tale The Enormous Turnip, the moral being one of teamwork – and unity…

50. TRIANON came quickly to me as many years ago there was a hotel called Petit Trianon near the palace which was far outside my expenses limit, except for a few attic rooms that could be had cheaply. Alas, no longer.

    I failed to understand the theme, even though 11A was almost my FOI. The penny finally dropped with 24D, my LOI.

    New to me: spelling moniker with a C.

51. [wynsum @46: The Latin adjective ‘enormis’ meant literally ‘out of the norm’, ie unusual, but had already developed the additional more specialised meaning ‘unusually big’, which is what its reflexes in the Romance languages, and hence English, all mean.

    As for the noun, ‘enormità’ in Italian still has the primary meaning of hugeness, but can also mean ‘great crime’. In French, ‘énormité’ also means vastness, but its secondary meaning is ‘big mistake’, ‘howler’. Committing an enormità is worse than committing an énormité 🙂 ]

52. Interestingly, if perhaps to me only, we also have RICK, TINA, VERA & MEL in the down answers. Feels like the members of a bad 80s tribute act 🙂

53. Thank to Picaroon.
    A enjoyable puzzle with the playful theme of hidden middle names. Thanks also to manehi for the highlights.
    Favourites were MONIKER; SWADDLED; PALISADE; DOWNSTREAM;

54. Tricky but beautifully clued. A real relief after the last two.

    ‘Enormity’ is one of those words (‘refute’ is another) that is currently changing meaning. It’s not a good time to use them because half your audience might misunderstand, whichever meaning you have in mind

55. I seem to be the only grump today (no surprise to my friends), because I don’t like googles even when fairly clued. 15, 17 and 22 would have been Mondayish clues to anyone with the relevant GK. Clues like these just tend to 14. Ah well. Thanks P & M.

56. Those who aren’t familiar with Shakira deserve this earworm, which was her first big English-language hit. The woman who ran the coffee shop where I did much of my reading for my MA studies was addicted to Shakira, so that song brings back memories of those days.

    Merriam-Webster, the definitive American dictionary, has an extensive usage note on ENORMITY. (The quotations are set off in block indentations, an effect I can’t reproduce here):

    Enormity, some people insist, is improperly used to denote large size. They insist on enormousness for this meaning, and would limit enormity to the meaning “great wickedness.” Those who urge such a limitation may not recognize the subtlety with which enormity is actually used. It regularly denotes a considerable departure from the expected or normal.

    they awakened; they sat up; and then the enormity of their situation burst upon them. “How did the fire start?”
    —John Steinbeck

    When used to denote large size, either literal or figurative, it usually suggests something so large as to seem overwhelming:

    no intermediate zone of study. Either the enormity of the desert or the sight of a tiny flower
    —Paul Theroux

    the enormity of the task of teachers in slum schools
    —J. B. Conant

    and may even be used to suggest both great size and deviation from morality.

    the enormity of existing stockpiles of atomic weapons
    —New Republic

    It can also emphasize the momentousness of what has happened

    the sombre enormity of the Russian Revolution
    —George Steiner

    or of its consequences.

    perceived as no one in the family could the enormity of the misfortune
    —E. L. Doctorow

    Although enormity has been used since the late 1700s to denote large size, this usage continues to be disparaged by various language commentators who argue that enormity should be reserved for senses related to “great wickedness.” It is enormousness, they insist (a hefty and considerably less common word), that should be used in reference to great size, despite the fact that, like enormity, it too originally was used to denote wickedness or divergence from accepted moral standards. For better or worse, this proscription has been widely ignored by many English speakers, including professional writers. However one chooses to use them, enormity and enormous can both be traced back to the Latin enormis, from the prefix e- (“out of”) and norma (“rule,” “pattern,” or “carpenter’s square”).

57. Oh, and I meant to mention that the clue for MARMOT had me going down the garden path of looking up the French for various rodents. Did you know that the French for gopher is “gopher”?

58. Well, after 56 comments, having come to the blog rather late, I will restrict myself to saying that I am in awe of the Pirate in all his guises.
    The Nina he often uses having a common theme in all the across answers must be difficult enough to compile. To then require the words to be exactly in the middle of the answer is the work of a genius setter.
    For what it’s worth, I m not sure that Picaroon intended the name LENA to be part of the Nina and that he was simply indicating what the rest of the clues had.
    Chapeau Picaroon

59. This is what a puzzle should be: hard but not impenetrable. Never heard of MALLARME, LEMMAS or TELEOST but the clues were clear enough and although I had to ask google for an explanation, I was happy to learn something from Picaroon. I didn’t have a problem with hugeness for enormity. Language evolves.
    Thanks both.

60. mrpenny @56 – that is an excellent contribution to the ENORMITY debate. Many thanks.

61. The enormity of some people’s egos is enormous.

62. If you stop to consider why Picaroon chose to use the word enormity in the clue – to partner “rogue” – it should become clear that he is well aware of both meanings. It’s a first-rate clue.

    Excellent puzzle all round. Thanks, Picaroon and manehi. And I second Eileen in thanking mr penney too.

63. Got the theme early for once, which was helpful. No unknown words except for TELEOST which was last in, after googling rivers in Hampshire…after the DNFs the last two days, it was good to finish. Thank you to Manehi and Picaroon.

64. That seemed to be a lot easier than the previous two as I was able to get to most of the answers via wordplay rather than by guessing and justifying (although I needed to check wikipedia/dictionary for 5d. MALLORME, 15a. TRIANON and 17a. TELEOST). I got the theme fairly early on but it didn’t really help me a whole lot except tht it stopped me from entering ‘how ugh’ for 12a. LOW END (I thought for a moment that the setter might be getting in premptive retaliation against possible negative comments!)

    Many thanks to Manehi for the blog and to Picaroon for a lovely puzzle

65. Widdersbel@62
    HUGENESS
    If you stop to consider why Picaroon chose to use the word enormity in the clue – to partner “rogue” – it should become clear that he is well aware of both meanings. It’s a first-rate clue.
    Great spot. And this is a significant contribution to the long discussion on enormity vs HUGENESS. Thanks.
    Frankie@38
    So people have been getting it “wrong” since 1792, and having it pointed out to them since 1966.
    😀

66. My question is the same as Dr W’s in 42 — how does “lend” = “grant” in 12ac?

    Apparently people who live in UTAH prefer to be called Utahns,, while the national press and others outside the state apparently think that’s too weird and insert the other A.

    Excellent puzzle but I never spotted the middle names. Good anyway. And thanks manehi for the guideance.

67. If you lend your support to a cause, you grant it your support.

    Thanks Picaroon and manehi.

68. Simon S @67
    If you lend your support, it’s only temporary; similarly if you lend something – money for example – you are expecting, or at least hoping, to get it back. Granting something is far more permanent!

69. Grants, unfortunately, can be withdrawn.

70. Muffin@68, simon@67 Dr W@42 and others
    Grant = Lend
    In 1941 the US Government wanted to grant the Allies the use of equipment and weapons but was unable to do so whilst retaining neutrality, the US population did not want to involved in the War. So they came up with Lend-Lease, the weapons were never to be returned but lent on a permanent basis, or destroyed, or leased in exchange for defense of the USA Lend = Grant
    Similar phraseology being used today in respect of Ukraine to keeping NATO neutral

71. Excellent puzzle with a number of fairly clued novelties (MALLARME, TELEOST, LEMMAS, UTAHAN). No real zingers, but a fine achievement to feature a theme in all across clues. Good to get back in the saddle after a pair of defeats on Weds and Thurs. Best wishes to all for the weekend!

72. Thanks for the blog, I was hoping for 3 in a row but after 8Ac I thought fat chance and things did not improve.
    Hovis @18 many LEMMAS are really theorems in their own right. The Stewart-Walker Lemma of General Relativity and the Feld-Tai Lemma from electromagnetism are merely two famous examples.

73. Excellent, thanks P and M.

74. Roz @72. Thanks for those examples. I have to agree that Lemmas (and, indeed, corollaries) can be theorems in their own right but one shouldn’t really equate them.

75. Since the “drink” the “sea” and the “main” are synonyms, I was wrongly convinced that to be in the MAINSTREAM was to by “with the current”…until by grandmother NORA appeared in the middle of the crosser.

76. MARMOT! I love them! It is on my bucket list to cuddle these cute creatures.

    Check this out

    https://youtube.com/shorts/Ml3n6flVxpw?si=QDp93tiYCMLnh3RG

77. I thought the Guardian style guide was against the use of ENORMITY to mean something big? It’s original derivation is related to a great crime or something morally wrong.

78. Late to the party, but thanks to Picaroon and manehi for the brilliant puzzle and blog. A puzzle as elegant, clever and fair as this encourages those qualities in those who respond to it , and this has been the case here. No mean spirited moaning or complaints but intelligence and wit aplenty.
    I am particularly grateful to Gervase@ 40 for the Fowler quote, the elegance of which is a fitting accompaniment to both this puzzle and blog

79. At first, I thought that Romeo was being unfairly maligned: my understanding is that a paramour is the adulterous lover of a married person. But Chambers says that’s only “usually” the case, and in any case I suppose we can imagine that the word “Romeo” is being used in its sense of referring to a lover in general rather than specifically to the addlebrained Veronese teenager.

    I’m a day late getting to this puzzle, and I thought there would be a discussion of the meaning of “enormity” by the time I got here. I was not disappointed. I have nothing to add: I was taught the original meaning in school and still avoid using the word to mean “enormousness”, but words’ meanings change over time.

80. Didn’t get TRIANON (nho), GANNET (never heard that slang sense), and UTAHAN (misspelled, and TA = “thanks” is still never natural to an American. Here “ta” = “goodbye, see you later”). Otherwise a fun puzzle, with a nice theme.

81. Good point MinG@77 – Guardian and Observer style guide: E:
    ‘enormity – It might sound a bit like “enormous”, but enormity refers to something monstrous or wicked, such as a massacre, and is not just another word for “big”’

82. I was late getting round to this, so not many – if any – will read this note, but I just had to join in the thanks to mrpenney@56 for the lengthy quote from Merriam-Webster about the apparent misuse of enormity to mean HUGENESS since 1792.

    As pointed out, both the clunky enormousness, and enormity itself come to us from Latin meaning “outside of the rule or norm”, so could quite easily mean extremely evil as well as extremely large, or extremely large as well as extremely evil, depending on your point of view with regard to 1792.

    Larousse confirms that the French enormité can be translated to either our own enormity or to HUGENESS, and they have been doing just that since 1792 (I jest!).

    Oh, and Chambers lists enormity under enormous, as well it might. Finally, thanks to Frankie@81 for checking the Guardian style guide, which clearly needs revising on this point. OK, “enormity…is not just another word for big”; I would say that it is a word for “so big that words fail me”.

    Thanks all, and good night.

    PS And as Widdersbel@62 suggests, Picaroon has probably been laughing about this since last Friday, so perhaps I’d better finish so that he can take a well-earned rest.

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