Guardian Cryptic 29,441 by Anto

87 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 29,441 by Anto”

1. Thanks Loonapick. I’d never have parsed yellow in a million years. As seems common with an Anto puzzle, a few issues, but thanks to him for the challenge.

2. Like you loonapick, it took me ages to parse YELLOW before the penny finally dropped. The grid was pretty unfriendly with fairly isolated quarters.
   I did like the CDs for TOOTH FAIRY and FARE DODGER.

3. I had more of an objection to the definition part of 1d than I did the answers to 1a or 8d. As snooker is a sort of sport, my reaction to 12a was “why the heck should I be expected to know that?” Quite tough, made tougher with the unforgiving grid, especially for a Monday. Thanks Loonapick.

4. Thank you loonapick. I had the parsing of SELF-ESTEEM as possibly 2 anagrams, loony left sees , and the shifting me.
   Or possibly shifting was as an instruction to switch positions of the M and. E.
   Not necessary , I know but I just thought it was Anto wanting to make something more of the clue than a single anagram.

5. My quibble with 1d was the plural refreshments in a TEABAG. Not sure if that’s what MAC089 @3 was referring to re the definition.

6. I quite liked the contemporary feel of Anto’s choice of vocabulary and edgy humour.
   FAREDODGER and ASBESTOS my picks.

7. paddymelon@4
   TEABAG
   Chambers has this under refreshment:
   refreshˈment noun
   (in pl) drink or a light meal

   SELF-ESTEEM
   I thought almost like you. Took the ‘shifting’ (in the sense of changing the direction) as a reversal indicator for the ‘me’.

   In both cases, I’d like to see what others say.

   TATTOO
   Agree with the comment in the blog. Spin as a noun works somewhat?
   OTT spin/rotation—OTT’s spin? Seen such clues in the past too. Will again wait for others’ views.

8. I parsed YELLOW eventually, despite no knowledge of billiards, so I’m feeling pleased with myself. On the other hand I failed to soove a few clues in the northwest. Never heard of AGITPROP. I initially had FARE EVADER, which slowed me down a bit.

   Thanks, Anto & Loonapick.

9. Many decades since I played, so I mix up the scores for green, brown and yellow, but obvs, given the def and crossers. Known about agitprop since a very young ginf [part of family lore that dad was in Odets’s Waiting for Leftie, late ’30s]. Yes, teabag from tea[r] + land = bag, with an oblique def, was a bit curlier than Monday. Agree with pdm @6 though, I quite like Anto, cheers to him and loona.

10. Liked 1ac, made me chuckle. Failed on AGITPROP, failed to parse YELLOW. No problem, with spin.

    Thanks both

11. I took it as [a] spin [of] OTT …

    The humble teabag, where many refreshments are stored .. [just musing ..]

12. Spim can be read as an instruction to the solver.
    I enjoyed this despite falling to parse yellow.
    Thanks both

13. Enjoyable puzzle.

    Favourites: The F WORD, ALT-RIGHT, AGITPROP, THE TROTS.

    I did not parse 12ac, 23ac.

    Thanks, both.

14. When I looked at this in the wee small hours I only managed a couple. However, much later in the cold light of day the bottom half filled up pleasingly, though couldn’t quite parse TATTOO. Then finally stuck in the NW corner until the penny dropped with THE TROTS, thinking for a long while with the enumeration that it had to be Red Somethingorother. Loi AGITPROP, and needed Loonapick to parse YELLOW, as hadn’t thought of the snooker reference. Therefore this one my COTD…

15. …have just reread my comment @14 about the penny dropping for THE TROTS. Unintentional reference to first public toilet to charge a penny being in London in 1850…

16. GDU @8: although sometimes confused, billiards is a different game, involving only one red and two white balls. I had most of this finished last night but the NW kept me at bay until this morning. Thought there might be a political theme with THE TROTS, ALT-RIGHT and the loony left but no. Another who failed to parse YELLOW. I liked FARE DODGER, THE F WORD, STAGECRAFT, GLUTES and IMPLANTS.

    Ta Anto & loonapick.

17. I should have parsed YELLOW, albeit we haven’t had the snooker balls out this year, but I’ve taught the yoof to play. TEABAG I’m still unconvinced, even after checking with the offspring whose idiolect includes dialect from different areas of the UK. Other than that all in and parsed.

    I do enjoy Anto’s different take on puzzles, solved this in the same sort of time as yesterday’s (chewy) Quiptic.

    Thank you to Anto and loonapick.

18. Lots of fun, with THE TROTS and TOOTH FAIRY the stand-outs for me (nothing like a good laugh), although I didn’t parse YELLOW or the TEAr bit of teabag. Divide?
    Now I’m off to check my memories of Sir Terry Pratchett’s Hogfather, in which the tooth fairy is a franchise operation. But I can’t remember the details: I think the ladder is provided but you have to bring your own pliers in case you can’t make change.

19. I agree with paddymelon about the mix of singular and plural at 1dn.

20. Agitprop – isn’t a prop (a property) an object used or decorating the stage setting and not scenery? Doubtless I’m missing something… Thank you Ant and Loo

21. Chargehand@20. I thought that too.

22. AlanC @ 16, proof that I have little knowledge of or interest in most things associated with balls. 🙂

23. This would have possibly seemed more of a struggle if yesterday’s Quiptic hadn’t been as fiendish as it was. I see the quibbles, but none marred my enjoyment. In common with others, the NW took some extra effort, as well as not parsing YELLOW and TEABAG. 8, 9 and 14 were my own highlights.

24. Also got a bit stuck in the NW.
    PEDANTRY ALERT.
    Re: AGITPROP – a GIT is not so much a FOOL as a tiresome intrusive blockhead, and a PROP is not part of the SCENERY, which is static and not part of the action, but moves and is handled by the actors.
    Other than that, great fun.

25. Sorry Chargehand @20. I took rather too much time composing my post, by which time you had beaten me to it.

26. Alec @24: I had the same thought about GIT, as for me it means a contemptible person, but the dictionaries confirm it also means fool. TILT.

27. AlanC @16, to be strictly correct, one of the two white balls in Billiards is not completely white but has a black dot on it in order to distinguish the two players. 🙂

28. Thanks Anto and loonapick
    Are there really IMPLANTS to enhance the rear?

29. @Alec 26. No problem. Enjoy your day.

30. Tim C @16: indeed that is true 😉 GDU @22: 🙂

31. Why the heck should I be expected to know all about the scoring system of snooker (which I do: I’m a fan)? For the same reason that I am expected to know every technical term associated with cricket (which I didn’t: I’ve had to learn). The only difference is that cricket is one of the “accepted” crossword sports and snooker isn’t. Anyway, it still took ages for the penny to drop on YELLOW.

    Anto usually gets picked up on some technicalities, but I like his style: the CDs for FARE DODGER and TOOTH FAIRY made me smile, as did REP AID and WELL DONE. The unhelpful grid meant that the NW corner held out a long time, with the wretched TEABAG having to be teased out letter by letter: the def would work much better as “where refreshment is…”

    I agree with Alec@24 re GIT: I wasted time trying to fit some more obvious fools in there. Thanks Anto and loonapick.

32. Tim C @ 27, we’re missing you at DAtrippers.

33. muffin@28: indeed there are – at least at the moment, when a more noticeable bottom is (so I am told) currently “in”.

34. I concur with the quibbles about the plural for TEABAG and the definition for ‘prop’. But I agree with paddymelon @4 about the parsing of SELF ESTEEM; *(leftseesme) wouldn’t have produced an intelligible surface, so Anto split it. The NE quadrant held me up – YELLOW is very clever, and took an age to parse.

    I liked CORSET, STAGECRAFT, ON THE DOT, WELL DONE – simple constructions but excellent surfaces.

    Thanks to S&B

35. I suppose, strictly speaking, it should be SET not SCENERY. Scenery is what you find in the Wye Valley. In a theatre or in a film, it’s the set.

36. Worked from the bottom to the top with the NW last to yield. Perhaps not surprising with THE TROTS, AGITPROP and ALT-RIGHT fairly unusual.

    I liked the good anagram for STAGECRAFT, the clever ‘regularly’ EDIBLE, the definition for TEABAG, the cd for TOOTH FAIRY (not a dog then), and the wordplay for ON THE DOT. I failed to parse YELLOW, which was a clever idea if you ever watch snooker on the telly.

    Thanks Anto and loonapick.

37. [GDU @32, I must try to get back there on DA Trippers. I just couldn’t face another login identity on Reddit but now it’s back as a wordpress site I may give it a go, although I must admit I’m finding DA almost as irritating as Paul on the Grauniad these days. Perhaps this old curmudgeon is getting less tolerant by the month. 🙂 ]

38. I enjoyed this. I think a couple of the criticisms are a bit unjustified. I don’t think there is always a clear-cut distinction between scenery and props – in a scene in a library for example: the walls, the pictures on the walls, the bookshelves, the books, the desk and the things on that – where exactly do you draw the line? And in 13d there’s no reason there shouldn’t be two anagram indicators: “Loony left sees” gives SELF ESTE and “me shifting” gives EM. It works perfectly, and of course makes a good surface.

    I do have a query of my own however. In 23a, E can of course be Elizabeth in ER, but can it on its own? (Any more than the first letter of any name?)

    Thanks Anto and loonapick.

39. Thanks to Anto and loonapick and for all the comments. I enjoyed this. Maybe the extra anagrind “loony” in 13 down creates a more amusing surface and possibly sets up a mini theme with the trots, Agitprop and the f word for those of us who remember the political scene of the late ‘60s / early’70s. Though alt-right doesn’t fit in and I know I’m stretching!

40. More or less a write-in despite the unfriendly grid. YELLOW took a while to fully understand, though.

    FARE DODGER and STAGECRAFT were neat.

    Thanks Anto and loonapick

41. Always annoys me when Tao (the way) is written with a T. Yes, I know it is correct in English, but that is only because the transliteration system in force used T for D and T’ for T. It should really be DAO. This is the relevant hanzi 道 . (Its also michi in Japanese of course).

42. I’m in complete agreement with Lord Jim on E for Elizabeth. Would you accept “Atlantic” to clue A or “treaty” to clue T on the grounds that that is what the letters stand for in NATO ? I think not.

43. 11a ALTRIGHT – I was taught that ALRIGHT is all wrong, but oed.com says:
    ‘…the form is strongly criticized in the vast majority of usage guides, but without cogent reasons.’ — (Clearly I was taught alwrong.)
    Thanks A&L

44. [Anna @41: The word TAO passed into English when Wade-Giles transliteration was current; it is now fully naturalised and pronounced with aspiration and without the appropriate tone. It is also used metaphorically. Romanisation of Chinese languages always has the problem of distinguishing aspirated and unaspirated dental stops. Pinyin uses T for the aspirated consonant , as T is usually aspirated in English. D in English is usually unaspirated, so is used for the unaspirated stop, but (as far as I know) it isn’t vocalised like the English consonant. So it’s a compromise]

45. Lord Jim and Dave H: I fully agree about the use of Elizabeth for E, but this sort of thing happens so often I have stopped commenting on it. Very recently we had ‘society’ for S, which is a similar case.

46. Much enjoyed, esp snooker reference, thanks Anto and Loonapick!

47. Lord Jim @38 & Dave Howell @42, I too find the way so many words are reduced to their initial letter in cryptics is one of my biggest hates. Like Gervase @45, I too have given up mentioning it, as someone’s always sure to say it’s in Chambers, QED.

48. If I take off my coat, I don’t strip my coat.

    ALRIGHT is not an acceptable spelling of “all right.”

    If an object is just decorating the stage, it’s a piece if scenery. If one of the cast handles it, it’s a prop, and not scenery.

    I have to leave now and don’t have time to read all the comments, so apologize to those whose thought’s I’m repeating. Thanks to Anto and loonapick.

49. Geoff Down Under @47, I think that if an abbreviation is actually in Chambers then the setter’s ok. But E for Elizabeth isn’t. Gervase @45, S for society is!

50. Gervase @ 44
    Thanks for your comment. Yep, that is totally correct.
    (I had forgotten that it was the Wade-Giles system, I get the different systems all mixed up now. I learnt Pinyin when I learnt Chinese, but that was in the 60s and 70s, and I stick with it. Its on-reading in Japanese is ‘doo’ too. Do you happen to know when the zi/kanji was borrowed?)

51. And now for a completely different complaint. I like it better when a clue gives the answer on its own without need for crossers, especially when one can BEAT or EVADE as well as DODGE both a meal and a transit fee. Other than that, some nice surfaces, anagrams, and inclusions, if nothing jaw-dropping.

52. A bit late to the commentary, so most of my thoughts about the puzzle have already been mentioned, except one.

    I was surprised to find SPILLAGE equated with leaking. If I’m carrying a bowl of water, say, spillage is the water sloshed over the side, leakage is the water that passes through a crack in the bottom. Not the same for me, but maybe others’ usage is different?

53. Lord Jim @49: Touché! I suppose the rationale for single letter abbreviations, like S = society, to be listed in Chambers is that they are used widely in a variety of contexts, thus helping users to make sense of unfamiliar abbreviations. But it still rankles that they are never used in isolation 🙂

54. More on Anto’s wavelength than I often am, with YELLOW the only parsing failure. Though I had the opposite issue with TATTOO–no problem with the parsing (FOI in fact), but why does it mean “show”?

    Thanks to Anto and loonapick!

55. Gervase @53: yes, good point. I have just formulated the Lord Jim Rules for abbreviations in crosswords which people can cut out and retain for future reference 🙂

    1. If a well-known dictionary includes a single letter (on its own) as an abbreviation for a word, then it’s acceptable.
    2. If the dictionary includes the letter only as part of a longer abbreviation, that does not make it acceptable. For example, A for “Atlantic” in NATO.
    3. Rule 1 still applies and the abbreviation is acceptable even where it wouldn’t in practice be used on its own. For example, S for “Society”.
    4. Abbreviations that are known to all of us from everyday life are acceptable even where they are unaccountably not included in dictionaries. For example, S/M/L for small medium large (clothing sizes).

56. Thank you Anto. Some lovely clues. In particular, I thought the surface of the clue for YELLOW was lovely.
    And thank you loonapick for the blog.
    Anna @41/50 and Gervase @46 – I bow to your vastly superior knowledge on whether to use Tao or Dao, but I’ll have to stick with Tao. How else will I remember how to spell Taoiseach?

57. matt w
    Here’s an example of a “Tattoo” as a show.

    Further to earlier discussion, I actually entered a partly parsed ALL RIGHT before checking it. I would never write “alright”. Which words is it legitimate to shorten the “all” to “al”? “Altogether” is one, I think.

58. Lovely to have the opportunity to wallow in thoughts of all the ways a liquid can escape its container.
    Spill, leak, ooze, drip, flood, gush, slip, slop, splash, spurt. And I will add the Scots SKIDDLE which is to mess about with things in water, e. g. in a sink or basin. Not strictly relevant? And why not?

59. Almost always.

60. Thanks for YELLOW, would never have worked it out myself!

61. [Clyde @56: Unlike Anna I do not speak any of the languages lumped under the heading of Chinese. But I was motivated to investigate how they have been transliterated into the Roman alphabet when I found that Mao Tse-Tung had suddenly become Mao Zedong 🙂 ]

62. I was taught alright was alright when we were suddenly presented with spelling tests late on at secondary school. A couple of us spelled it correctly and were among the very few to achieve 100% on those tests purely because a friend in another class that completed the test ahead of us spent that morning break chuntering about that spelling. I still think it looks wrong.

63. mattw @54 and muffin @57, yes mrs ginf was a fan, watched it on telly every year, and dragged me to it live in Edinburgh on one of our visits*. But does that = a synonym, i.e. are there any other examples of tattoo meaning show?

    *Northen hem summer but cold. Top tier seats, lots of quids, but cramped.

64. From the ODE:
    There is no logical reason for insisting that all right should be written as two words rather than as alright, when other single-word forms such as altogether have long been accepted. Nevertheless, alright is still regarded as being unacceptable in formal writing

65. Thanks loonapick, it wouldn’t be Anto without a quibble or two (I’ll add the crossing plants in 19d clue and 27a solution) but as usual for my money the creativity outweighed them. Alec@59 very good, FrankieG@43 (and others) maybe you have forgotten this Britpop banger which surely makes that spelling, er, alright?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUE4oDunYkc
    GrantinFreo@63 we have a tattoo here, in Basel, although it is maybe modelled on the Edinburgh one and takes its name from it too, I haven’t checked.
    Thanks Anto!

66. Robi @64: ‘All right’ and ‘altogether’ are used differently, so the OED is being disingenuous. The former is an adjectival phrase, the latter is adverbial – we would say ‘They appeared all together’ rather than ’They appeared altogether’, but ‘They appeared altogether confused by the distinction ‘ 🙂

67. If it has, borrowed the term, Gazzh @65, interesting that ‘the cultural centre of Switzerland” should do so.

68. Grantinfreo@63: my father, in his Army days in the Royal Horse Artillery, took part in the 1925 Wembley Torchlight Tattoo that was part of the British Empire Exhibition. I think a Tattoo is specifically a show with a heavy involvement by the armed forces.

69. Somewhere along the way I learnt that alright could be alright for all right. Not sure when in prose, or when in young ginf’s education.

70. Ta for that gladys @68, yes I’m sure you’re right that it’s a military thing, originally.

71. Thanks muffin@57! I had figured the drumming sense of the word was more likely than the skin ink sense, but didn’t realize that it could be a full-on drumming exhibition.

    [Now that I look it up, “tattoo” in the sense of drumbeat does seem much more of a UK than US usage. I had remembered it from William Bagthorpe trying to set the world record longest tattoo and being caught taking a break for a fry-up.]

72. Gervase@66 – but what if they appeared, all together, in the altogether. That is surely a different matter altogether. All together now, “Oh no it isn’t!”

73. Then again there’s Free’s ‘All right now.’
    As the late Fluff Freeman might have had it, “All right? Alright! Not arf!”

74. Gervase@66 – a similar distinction with al(l )right could avoid ambiguity:
    They got them all right = they scored 100%
    They got them alright = they certainly did get them

75. Thanks Anto, that was fun with my favourites being ALT-RIGHT, WEIRDEST, ON THE DOT, THE F WORD, and WELL DONE. Thanks loonapick for the blog.

76. @Lord Jim 38 – Sorry you’re wrong about props. Having worked in theatre for a good chunk of my life, it is a specific part of backstage. Enjoy your day.

77. Guardian and Observer style guide: A: ‘
    all right has traditionally been regarded as right, and alright as not all right (although the 1965 Who song, much loved by generations of headline writers and still widely quoted today, was The Kids are Alright).
    Kingsley Amis in The King’s English said alright was “gross, crass, coarse and to be avoided” but admitted this was “a rule without a reason”.
    Note, however, the difference between “she got the answers all right” and “she got the answers, alright!” …
    all together – as one united body: “We are all in it together”
    altogether – completely, totally: “That’s an altogether different matter”’

78. I will not repeat my usual comments about Anto’s puzzles.

79. Really a fun solve. My favorite was Implants. I also had no hope on parsing Yellow, although after googling I now know the point values of the other color balls. Thanks Anto and Loonapick!

80. chargehand @76: fair enough, I wouldn’t want to argue with an expert. But I am curious about my library scene example. Are the books on the shelves part of the scenery, but if an actor picks one up does it become a prop?

81. George Clements @78: Nice apophasis 🙂

82. [Gervase @81
    🙂 ]

83. Lord Jim @80: I’d say: If the props person is responsible for them, they’re props; if the scenery-builder is, they’re scenery.

    Still smarting from going for ‘Teabar’ for the controversial 1d, though I see dictionaries tend to make it two words. Won’t stop me joining the harrumphs supra at the plural ‘refreshments’ in the definition, though.

    But how can I do other than thank Anto (however latitudinarian) warmly for that glorious “f-word” clue – and other felicities?

    And thank you too, loonapick.

84. I am just glad I solved 8 clues.

    I am really proud of solving 7d; I felt like I knew what I was doing!

85. Constable Melton @83: so we as the audience can’t tell which it is? 🙂
    Interesting discussion, thanks to all. Personally I still think it was, as they say, close enough for jazz.

86. @80 Lord Jim, 83 Constable M… Props are portable, scenery is not. Props can be used to decorate a set but they are still props. Hope that helps. Anyway, enough from me. Enjoy your evening/day.

87. Thanks for that, chargehand.

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