Guardian 29,453 / Pasquale

85 comments on “Guardian 29,453 / Pasquale”

1. Classy. Top ticks for TUTEE, CEDILLA & NADINE DORRISS (no thanks for the reminder though)

   Cheers E&P

2. Thanks Pasquale and Eileen
   Good puzzle, not as difficult as it appeared at first sight. Favourite ADMIRE.
   John Rutter might be a bit offended to be characterised as a “Christmas composer”!

3. Slightly tricky for a Monday but good fun. I didn’t know Eremites, Caret or Ret but it wasn’t a problem. Loved the Mad Nad clue! Thanks to Pasquale and Eileen.

4. muffin @2 – as I intended to imply!

5. Great puzzle. Unsurprisingly, NADINE caused a problem for non-UK solvers on the G site, but it was such a super clue. Hadn’t heard of RET, CARETS or the composer but they were gettable. My wife cooked an Ulster Fry yesterday morning and apologised for not being able to find SODA BREAD, so I smiled at that one. (I’m sure you’ll remember those Eileen🙂) Other favourites were SINGAPORE, CEDILLA, DISCLOSURE and PROVIDENCE.

   Ta Pasquale & Eileen.

6. [I do indeed, AlanC, with fondness. 😉 ]

7. Thanks Pasquale and Eileen

   Nadine Dorries was genius – the clue obviously not the MP. Also loved lightyear, cedilla. No grumbles at all.

8. I completed this during a spell of insomnia in the small hours. It mostly flowed for me. I couldn’t work out the full meaning of CEDILLA, though that was clearly the answer. Looks so obvious this morning. The word you should never use in a French cafe or restaurant of course (!) Too many favourites to list. A great start to the week. With thanks to Pasquale and Eileen.

9. Pasquale could have just used “boy” instead of “waiter” to avoid giving English speakers the wrong idea of how to address a French waiter!

10. Enjoyed this, with the possible exception of cedilla — the name of which escaped me, and had no alternative access. Oh well!

    I had VARIETY rather than varsity as well. Seemed like it worked! But I guess IET is a bit too much of a stretch for ‘uni’.

11. That was a fun start to the week. The across clues yielded little on first pass, but it all unfolded very satisfyingly. I’d never heard of RET meaning soaked, but it was easily gettable from the clue. LIGHT YEAR was great as was – well, I’d started typing out the list, but basically all of them.

    Many thanks Pasquale and Eileen.

12. Yes, the MP whatsername was the main difficulty for me but that’s what Google’s for innit?

13. The comment about calling a waiter “garçon” being outmoded reminded me of the late great Sir Pterry Pratchett’s Witches Abroad, specifically
    ‘Garkon? Mucho vino aveck zei, grassy ass.’

    The innkeeper, who did not understand one word and was a good-natured man who certainly did not deserve to be called a garkon, smiled at Nanny. He’d smile at anyone with such an unlimited capacity for drink.

14. It’s fine to use “garçon” as long as you snap your fingers when you say it 🙂

15. Hadn’t heard of 2d’s John STRUTTER, but that link is brilliant, Eileen! 😀 Thanks. Here‘s another, that goes with it – kind of.

16. FrankieG – thanks for that: I was tempted but thought three links for one entry might be OTT.

17. As usual, Eileen has already identified my favourites. I was another with an Institute of Engineering and Technology as a uni in VARY, for a while. Thanks, both.

18. Good fun, and a splendid (if parochial) anagram for NADINE DORRIES. I forgot ret=soak, and also forgot that there was a CEDILLA in garçon, or what CARETS were for. Wasted lots of time trying to make VARSITY be VERSION (=model), and needed all the crossers to find out what sort of NUMBERS were in the infinite series.

    Today’s earworm: in case you weren’t sure about the shepherd boy.

19. A big thank you to all the compilers who refrain from including obscure Brits that no one this side of the English Channel has heard of.

    Now to this puzzle. Nadine Dorries? I eventually got it after all the intersecting clues and some internet research. Ted in SHUNTED was OK — he’s rather better known. Oh, and I knew John Rutter — I’ve sung in and conducted several of his compositions and arrangements.

    Never heard of SODA BREAD, EREMITES, nor “ret”. Apart from Nadine, this was good fun, thanks Pasquale & Eileen.

20. Ret = soak, shortened first name of a mp 50 years ago, as = when, dab an old reference, c = more or less, french dialect, brass tacks old saying, Rutter, digs , + unknown mp and uncommon religious references. Apart from these I enjoyed the solve and added a few words to my vocabulary.

21. Great start to the week. The answers went in with a satisfying click. New to me RUTTER and RET. But as an ex PM was wont to say ‘There is no alternative’.

22. Thanks very much to Pasquale and Eileen. Yes, I also found this an enjoyable solve.
    I hadn’t heard of the ex-MP NADINE DORRIES (which once I read the link and then googled her, may have been a good thing) but I was able to work the name out from the anagram and crossers.
    I needed help to understand fully the parsing for the clues at 12a VARSITY (I was also pursuing VARIETY there for a while, khayyam@10), 13a TUTEE, 22a CEDILLA and 14d SEASONALLY and I am now kicking myself as now they all seem so darned obvious (cf. nuntius@8 re garçon). But I did appreciate the blog very much (as always).
    Favourites were the aforementioned RETRIEVER at 9a and BRASS TACKS at 1d.
    [BTW, I also really enjoyed the amusing musical link to Rutter, the reminder of that Vicar of Dibley scene, and the Terry Pratchett story!]

23. [I remember a quote from Nadine Dorries something to the effect that at her first Cabinet meeting she was surrounding by people who had been brought up on estates like her, where there were sometimes shooting parties. The difference was that hers was owned by Liverpool Council.]

24. [Sorry took too long to type, so a few comments appeared in between posting mine and the last one I read.]

25. That was fun, I like Pasquale, because when his clues go in the go in with certitude*. And I loved the link to the Rutter parody – knowing both the original pieces used.

    * it amuses me that there’s a geocaching checker site called Certitude (for puzzle caches to check the answer is correct before going to the site).

    Thank you to Pasquale and Eileen.

26. Took a little time to get going, but then it all came together nicely. A pleasant contrast to last Saturday’s Prize.
    The genius of the NADINE DORRIES clue is that the anagram indicator is “mad” and the lady’s invariable nickname, which she loathed with a passion, was “Mad Nad”. I was amused to find a while back that her name was also an anagram of INANE DISORDER. Someone, I forget who it was, once suggested that the anagrams of people’s names often revealed something about them.
    Now that the historic injustice has been remedied – it always seemed unfair that Karl Jenkins was a Sir and Rutter “only” a CBE – the only place for him to go is canonisation, so ST. RUTTER seems apt. It’s fair, I think, to say that Rutter has composed an awful (in more senses than one) lot of Christmas music, which I think was the point of the Private Eye cartoon some years ago depicting a chorister exclaiming “I can’t believe it’s not Rutter!” (I believe he has the framed original).
    Thanks to Pasquale and Eileen.

27. Straightforward apart from the obscure “ret”, another interesting addition to my vocabulary. The last usage cited by OED is from 1897.
    My thanks to Pasquale and Eileen.

28. I thought the Christmas composer might be Noel Coward at first – but I couldn’t make anything of ST+COWARD, and then I remembered Sir John. (Who, poor man, wouldn’t be happy to hear his work described as such.)
    I smiled and winced in equal measure with this one. I really don’t care for loose definitions, such as random first names clued as Boy, Girl, Woman etc – and SODA BREAD clued as “type of food” had me borrowing one of Roz’s Paddington Hard Stares.
    On the other hand, CEDILLA was pleasing, DIGS made me grin – and 20D/23A was a likeable clue for a thoroughly unlikeable individual.
    Thanks to Pasquale for the challenge, and Eileen for an entertaining and well-written blog.

29. For a while with 9ac I thought the dog might be Rotweiller, until I realized that hound had too many letters. So eventually put RETRIEVER in with a shrug, wondering what the Ret component could possibly be. Apart from that, and having to come on here to see how SEASONALLY was put together, an enjoyable solve…

30. Thank you Eileen.
    I don’t understand the grammar of ret in RETRIEVER, get soaked.
    From Collins online:
    Word forms: rets, retting, retted
    (transitive)
    to moisten or soak (flax, hemp, jute, etc) to promote bacterial action in order to facilitate separation of the fibres from the woody tissue by beating.
    Wouldn’t get soaked be retted?

    I don’t have a problem with UKGK, especially when it’s fairly clued. I expect UKGK in a British crossword, and always learn something. Agree with TimC@12. Google is my friend.

    I do have a quibble though about disco=party in DISCLOSURE.
    And the superfluous take in take care of COMA. I don’t buy that it’s a misdirection.
    And the folk locked away. I thought that EREMITES chose that existence.

    Favs ADMIRE (parsing for the def), TUTEE ( when missing), and CARETS, LIGHT YEAR, CHERUBIM, IN A FLASH, and SODA BREAD, (not challenging, but good surfaces and indicators for anagrams and charades)

31. paddymelon @30 re RET: I took it as to soak (something) is to get it soaked.

32. Late to the plate and it’s all been said. The tone and my favourites neatly captured by Eileen in her preamble and elucidation thereafter for the clues I couldn’t parse. I had forgotten the CEDILLA in garcon – a word I encountered in school French lessons but rarely since. Crackers @20 has put together a decent list of potential obscurities and I can understand overseas solvers encountering some challenge. Fortunately, today, they were all things I’ve met before but, on another day …

    Thanks Pasquale and Eileen (There is a minor typo in the blog for LIGHT YEAR with ‘fancy’ being included in the fodder)

33. As Eileen said, a most enjoyable start to the week. Along with others, I shoved in RETRIEVER without knowing RET as it couldn’t be much else. On completion I spent some time hunting for other grammatical marks, since we had CARETS and CEDILLA. I tried to persuade myself that COMA was nearly COMMA but had to admit defeat and accept coincidence!

34. I wondered whether there might be a religious mini-theme here, once I saw CARDINAL, NUMBERS, CHERUBIM, EREMITES, [John] RUTTER the Christmas-carol-composer (whom I hadn’t heard of but the name seemed plausible), [d]AVID – along with PROVIDENCE (presumably one of the Virtues) and ENVY (a Deadly Sin) – and ‘disciple’ among the clues.

    Perhaps not. Then I wondered about typography, seeing CARET and CEDILLA. Plus COMA only one letter short of COMMA. There’s my imagination running riot!

    Had to smile at CEDILLA – a cheeky clue which had me stranded until it clicked. Very Grauniad-ish and neat of Don to contrive it. NADINE DORRIES was probably too Brit-centric for some solvers, as Eileen points out – otherwise I’d give that a tick too. Also ticks for RETRIEVER (wasn’t sure of that meaning of RET but I looked it up); SODA BREAD (something I’m a DAB hand at making!); SHUNTED, VARSITY, LIGHT YEAR, BRASS TACKS, DISCLOSURE, IN A FLASH and CARETS.

    But all of it’s Don at his best. Thanks to him and Eileen.

35. A lovely puzzle, which I found considerably easier than yesterday’s Quiptic.

    For more information about retting, I recommend a visit to Hillswick, in Shetland, where there is an “interpretive board” tucked away which goes into some detail.

36. The production of linen requires retting. The link is to a project that involves volunteers and Patrick Grant to get it growing again in England as it’s a more eco-friendly fibre for clothes (compared to cotton and synthetics).

    AlanC @5 – homemade soda bread used to be my go to when I ran out of bread as I could make it in not much over half an hour. It also, just about, works as a gluten free bread, but not enough that I make it as often as I used to. (Better than yeasted GF bread, in my experience, which I cannot find a way to make rise).

37. Monkey @35: splendid piece of advice and the absolute antithesis of the Internet Age. Sure, one can look up ‘retting’ in Wikipedia but how much more fun to physically make one’s way to a tiny settlement in the most northerly island group in Britain and then locate the tucked away interpretive board. 🤣

38. PM@30 for disco Chambers has “A club or party where music for dancing is provided by records, usu played by a disc jockey”

    Might an EREMITE lock themselves away metaphorically?

39. Bodycheetah@38. Well, I think that Chambers should be thrown out with the chamber pot. Does anyone use disco and party interchangeably?
    I take your point about EREMITE though, which had also occurred to me.

40. Well constructed crossword from the Don, as expected.

    I did have some quibbles, though. CHERUBIM are described in the OT as magnificent beings with two pairs of wings – surely the ‘little angels’ are better described as ‘cherubs’? I agree with muffin @9 that ‘boy’ would have been better than the ludicrously out-of-date and offensive ‘waiter’. TUTEE is a horrible word, though used in the best establishments (it must be a back formation from ‘tutor’, as the Latin verb from which it comes is deponent). And good clue notwithstanding, the appearance of that egregious ‘ex-MP’ spoilt my enjoyment of the puzzle 🙁

    However, I did like RETRIEVER, CREEL, LIGHT YEAR, PROVIDENCE and CARETS 🙂

    Thanks to Pasquale and Eileen

41. Enjoyable puzzle.

    Favourites: 7d ADMIRE, and 20/23 for its amusing clue.

    New: CARET; RET = soaked; composer John Rutter (for 2d).

    Thanks, both.

42. I 8d our friends who are 25a s beyond 19a and 5d who have never heard of 20d 23a. What has happened to her anyway? She seems to have completely disappeared.

43. It seems to happen quite often here that when a setter strays into a domain in which they are not expert, they use a technical term in an “incorrect” way, specialists get all upset but everybody else thinks there is no problem. The term du jour is infinite series. Back in University or maybe it was A-level it was drummed into us that there is a big difference between a sequence and a series: a sequence is an ordered list of terms, like the CARDINAL NUMBERS, whereas in a series they are all summed together. See here. However, having said all that, I think on this occasion the informal use is fine for crosswords, but I thought people might like to know the whole story.

44. Gervase @40 ‘Cherubim’ is simply the plural of ‘cherub’ in Hebrew, where the word comes from. The development of the OT version which you cite to the miniaturised version results largely from the conflation of the cherub and the classical cupid into the ‘putto’ of Western art.

45. Another clue I have seen for the solution to 20/23A is: “The end of reason! Read with derision about ‘cultural’ politician”. Equally apt!
    Thanks Eileen and Pasquale for an enjoyable puzzle and commentary.

46. Enjoyed this — and NADINE DORRIES is my personal clue of the year so far.

47. I found that tougher than most, it seems, although in hindsight it is hard to see why (mostly). Ret was new to me, leaving 9A unparsed. The parsing of 13A also escaped me. 21A was a NHO but a straightforward construction.

    21D was a favorite.

    One small moan: can we have a moratorium on CHE being clued as a revolutionary? Along with certain other constructions (‘singer’ for CHER, ‘film’ for ET, among them) it has become a cliché that I would hope setters of the caliber of the Guardian’s could avoid.

48. [Shanne @36: I mentioned your comment to Mrs C. She replied that she made it once but ate the whole loaf before I got home, because it was so delicious. She hasn’t made it since 😊 ]

49. Jacobz@47 – I agree with you that there are a lot of cruciverbal ‘clichés’ that tend to get over-used, and I suppose CHE is certainly one of them (the poor bloke died in 1967 and his real first name was Ernesto). Likewise CHER and ET. Also ER when it’s simply clued as ‘Queen’ – people need reminding perhaps that Queen Liz is no more…

    Me – I’d like to see less use of recreational drug terminology: in particular ‘E’ and ‘H’ – though I have to admit they’re convenient and I’ve used them myself in my setter’s guise.

    [ Shanne@36: my formula for SODA BREAD is 1/3 Rye, 1/3 Wheat (white) and 1/3 Wheat (wholemeal). Obviously not GF but I have no need – not for my family at least. I might one day try a sourdough with 100% Rye – not quite GF but close. Can’t guarantee that it would rise though. ]

50. PostMark @32 – thanks for pointing out the typo at 25ac. Grrh! – I posted my comment 31 when I was literally on the point of going out to a funeral and so I missed your comment – it’s (very belatedly) fixed now.

51. Thanks for the blog and crossword. Would somebody remind me where the link is to the Vicar of Whatsit? I found it once and can’t find it now.

52. Just catching up on comments …

    Re SODA BREAD: my recipe for ‘Irish soda bread’ (using strong white flour, wholemeal flour, buttermilk and bicarbonate of soda) which I’ve been using for decades, produces what I knew in Northern Ireland in the 60s as ‘wheaten bread’, which is no real problem, because we like that, too – but it isn’t ‘soda bread’.
    A bit of research has made me realise that what I was thinking of is soda FARLS, which I’ve never seen on this side of the Irish Sea and I’m pretty sure this is what was missing from Alan’s Ulster Fry (especially since he said @5 ‘those’, not ‘it’!).

    Valentine @51 – it was in FG’s comment @15.

53. Another one for whom RET was new, but not an obstacle to filling in the answer. Other clues not fully parsed were similarly gettable. Also the puzzle posed fewer problems than yesterday’s Quiptic and was great fun.

54. Jacobz @47 and Laccaria @49: personally I quite like crossword traditions like “revolutionary” = CHE, “priest” = ELI, “princess” = DI, as well as newer ones like “my” = COR. Sure they’re clichés, but for me they usually raise a smile of recognition when they crop up.

    Very pleasant Monday puzzle. Many thanks Pasquale and Eileen.

55. Lovely puzzle, much enjoyed! Nadine Dorries was genius indeed.

56. Eileen @52, and other Ulster Fry people: until recently, SODA FARLS were available, in packets of two, at my local M&S (Norwich), but they seem to have been discontinued, at least for now, Potato Bread likewise, but that can be found at Sainsbury’s, if you know where to look. Thanks for the blog, and to Pasquale for a fine crossword. We surely no longer need to use the words ‘quite hard for a Monday’? – since the pattern of simpler ones in alternate weeks, from Vulcan, is now so firmly established.

57. Thanks, quenbarrow @56. 😉

58. Balfour @44: I’m well aware of all that! 🙂 . It just strikes me as perverse to use the Hebrew plural for mere putti…

59. […not all goyim fail to recognise a Hebrew plural when they see one 🙂 ]

60. I was held up with 7d and 12a unsolved in the NE corner. Had to go away and concentrate on something else, whereupon they both made themselves known. I had been trying to make variety or version work, like some others have mentioned, and I was reading the clue for ADMIRE completely wrong. This seems to happen to me quite a lot on Mondays – and quite a few other days too!

    Thanks to bodycheetah@14 for the suggestion that snapping your fingers makes it ok to use “garçon” in a restaurant. I’ll have to try to remember that next time I’m in France.

    Thanks to Pasquale and Eileen.

61. Lovely puzzle, delightful blog as usual, enjoyable discussion and diversions, links etc.
    Re comments by pdm@30: As another Australian solver, I also expect and welcome UKGK in a Guardian puzzle. I enjoy reading the political satirists in the G and was familiar with the name of the MP, so thought NADINE DORRIES a brilliant anagram.
    CEDILLA was very clever. I also liked LIGHT YEAR, SODA BREAD and so many others. CARETS was a new word for me.
    But I found I knew RET – too many museums and interpretive boards?
    One question. A CREEL is also needed by an angler. So is that also a cryptic definition, more or less? I don’t know the terms.
    Thanks to Pasquale and Eileen

62. I got around to NADINE DORRIES eventually after first running DENNIS and RONNIE through the check machine–as much as I complain about UK references, I seem to have followed the politics enough to pick up several names. RET and RUTTER were NHOs though.

    Dr WhatSon@42, I had a similar thought about CARDINAL NUMBERS–I think of the sequence as the ordinal numbers, since every ordinal number has a successor, while (I think?) it is a matter of some controversy whether the cardinal numbers can be well-ordered.* But I only had this thought after slapping my forehead for taking so long to figure out the first half. “Is there a series called the Dominican numbers?” I wondered.

    Unlike the consensus I found CEDILLA to be too indirect–LOI from crossers and the “French mark” idea. [It does make me think of the joke that in a Mexican restaurant you can order a ķ–a quesadilla. Apparently ķ is the seventeenth letter of the Latvian alphabet.]

    Any quibbles aside I very much enjoyed this, thanks Pasquale and Eileen!

    [Neil @26: An anagram of my name is MEANER TWIT so I hope not!]

    *[Does the idea that the cardinal numbers can be well-ordered depend on the well-ordering principle, which is equivalent to the axiom of choice and thus independent of Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory? Or am I barking up the wrong tree? My higher math is very rusty. The more I think of it the more I doubt that the cardinal numbers even form a set.]

63. Although CARET means the ^ symbol used in proofreading etc., I have also heard it used for the flashing line that shows where text will appear on a computer screen. I don’t know if this is correct – if not, what is the line called?

64. bodycheetah @14 and sheffield hatter @60
    🙂

65. [ Matt@62 , I strongly suspect that the setter really means CARDINAL NUMERALS and the actual meaning of CARDINAL NUMBERS is not being considered . The lack of distinction is fine for a crossword .]

66. me @63
    Caret seems to be an uncommon alternative name for cursor. I started computers with Acorn, and I think they used it.

67. This looked like an ordeal this morning, so I decided my brain wasn’t working and saved it for the homeward commute instead. I think some of the obscurities (to me) put this puzzle at the harder end of Monday fare, but it was all gettable due to fair clueing and there were a number of lovely charades. Favourites were BRASS TACKS and CREEL.

68. Nice one from the Don. Just the job for a Monday morning.

69. Clearly I’m the only one not in the fan club. NADINE DORRIES is excellent, but I can’t abide the cake-walking. Always a fistful of obscurities to check.

70. Having failed on 20,23 NADINE DORRIES, I googled her, and now regret that I can no longer say I’ve never heard of her. Nevertheless, it was a marvelously descriptive clue.

    Thanks, Eileen, for the link to the Rutter parody (and FrankieG@15 for the Dibley addendum). I once sat in on a choral workshop that he led and can attest that he is a dynamic and good-humoured man who would delight at the parody (as the video showed) and would laugh at the Christmas composer tag.

    I found this on the tough end of the Monday spectrum but it was well worth the effort, as Pasquale always is, so thanks P&E for the Monday mirth.

71. cellomaniac @70 – really glad you enjoyed it.

72. [ Me@70, I forgot to add that I have played in the orchestra for a performance of John Rutter’s Requiem. If your acquaintance with his music is through his Christmas carols, you would find the Requiem quite different and very moving. It is well worth exploring. ]

73. [cellomaniac @72
    It’s his Requiem that I’m most familiar with. It’s very good, but rather reminiscent of Faure’s, I think.]

74. [That’s one that my choir has done – and we’re doing the Fauré in November.]

75. [Roz@65: Absolutely, I agree that my technical quibbles about the ordering of cardinal numbers are irrelevant to the crossword! I doubt that anyone was stumped because they saw the answer and thought “but it’s not a series.”]

76. Eileen@52 Thanks. Will follow it up.

77. Mattw@75, I think Roz is distinguishing between the abstract cardinals and their denotations. DrWhatsOn pointed out the difference between a series and a sequence. A sequence is necessarily ordered – we can say whether one thing comes before another. Technically, they are maps from an ordinal to (in this case) some cardinals. The obvious order is by size. The power set is a legitimate construction in ZF, and each power set is bigger than the set you started with. The (general) continuum axiom tells you there are no intermediate cardinals.

78. Today I learned that the character ^ is called a caret. I always thought it was a carrot because it looked like a carrot! Though on reflection that makes no sense! My first cryptic for a few years and very much enjoyed it.

79. Here’s an interesting link – between eremites and retting. Eremis is the Greek word for desert. Hence desert dwellers were eremites, or (later) hermits – they withdrew from the worldliness and indulgence of Constantine’s Christian state in the 6th century.
    They stayed mostly in their caves, living on extremely little food, which they paid for using money they made by making little baskets… the raw material for these was reeds which they retted in pots of water, and which smelt abominable….
    I don’t think that connection was in the setter’s mind but it was in mine.

80. Scotblok @79

    Thanks for that – it’s the kind of thing I love!

    I don’t think I recognise your name, so welcome to the site if you’re a new commenter – and my apologies if you’re not.

81. [ Matt and Tim , all I meant was that in the UK people see the term CARDINAL NUMBERS and think 1, 2, 3 …… etc , not the cardinality of sets . This is an infinite series for a crossword ,
    Chambers 93 : Series – a set of things in line or succession.
    I do find it amusing that people still take ZF seriously , ]

82. Don’t understand waiter clue. At all.

83. [ muffin@73 and Eileen@74, I agree, the Rutter Requiem is reminiscent of Faure, but that’s not a bad thing. Faure’s resonated with several composers – Durufle and Lloyd-Webber as well as Rutter – and they all differ from the high drama of the Mozart , Brahms and Verdi ones. ]

84. Kirsty – it’s a cryptic definition, so it’s allusive rather than definitive.

    22 Mark given to French waiter? (7)

    The definition is a mark. A mark seen on the old word for a waiter(now discontinued, but seen in English jokes) is garçon and the mark used to make that work is a cedilla, the ¸ symbol.

    The jokes give the snapping of fingers and Garçon, Garçon references above.

85. cellomaniac @83 – we’ve ‘done’ all of those!

    The Verdi was first term at university, though, sung in Bristol cathedral – my first experience of real choral singing: quite a culture shock, coming from my small rural girls’ school and singing ‘Nymphs and shepherds’ in school singing festivals. 😉

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