The puzzle may be found at https://www.theguardian.com/crosswords/cryptic/29528.
A theme playing on various meanings of 17A SEAL. I ran out of steam with 9A HARP, so over to you.
| ACROSS | ||
| 7 | BULLISH |
Optimistic, like male of 17ac? (7)
|
| Double definition; the male of the elephant seal in particular is called a bull. | ||
| 8 | LEOPARD |
Writer in retreat welcomed by fat cat (7)
|
| An envelope (‘welcomed by’) of EOP, a reversal (‘in retreat’) of POE (Edgal Allan, ‘writer’) in LARD (‘fat’). | ||
| 9 | HARP |
Eagle not the last for Gary Player? (4)
|
| HARP[y] (‘not the last’) is the ‘eagle’, but where the golfer come in (if he does) I do not know, and with the end of UK daylight savings cutting an hour from my solving I have run out of time to dig further. | ||
| 10 | ROUTINELY |
Heavy defeat at home by City, as per usual (9)
|
| A charade of ROUT (‘heavily defeat’) plus IN (‘at home’) plus ELY (‘city’). | ||
| 12 | CRAZY |
Ridiculous record by 17ac (5)
|
| Double definition; Seal (in full Seal Henry Olusegun Olumide Adeola Samuel) is a British singer-songwriter, and Crazy one of his songs. | ||
| 13 | FINALISE |
Life’s in a mess for 17ac (8)
|
| An anagram (‘mess’) of ‘lifes in a’; as in “seal a bargain”. | ||
| 15 | COAT |
Bed broken by adult film (4)
|
| An envelope (‘broken by’) of A (‘adult’) in COT (‘bed’). | ||
| 16 | PRIVY |
Peer tackling drip in toilet (5)
|
| An envelope (‘tackling’) of IV (intravenous ‘drip’) in PRY (‘peer’). | ||
| 17 | SEAL |
Swimmer occasionally ill at ease doing backstroke? (4)
|
| Alternate letters (‘occasionally’) in reverse (‘doing backstroke’) in ‘ill At EaSe’. | ||
| 18 | RE-ENGAGE |
Unlimited plums to take on again (2-6)
|
| [g]REENGAGE[s] (‘plums’) minus its outer letters (‘unlimited). | ||
| 20 | CRIMP |
Gang member bored by opening of Magic Flute (5)
|
| An envelope (‘bored by’) of M (‘opening of Magic’) in CRIP (‘gang member’). | ||
| 21 | CRAB-EATER |
Cabaret dancing queen is 17ac (4-5)
|
| A charade of CRABEAT, an anagram (‘dancing’) of ‘cabaret’ plus ER (‘queen’). The crabeater is a kind of the marine mammal which lives in the Antarctic, and does not eat crabs. | ||
| 22 | MONK |
Brother working within revolutionary unit (4)
|
| An envelope (‘within’) of ON (‘working’) in MK, a reversal (‘revolutionary’) of KM (kilometre, ‘unit’) | ||
| 24 | HARBOUR |
British artist coming back in time to entertain (7)
|
| An envelope (‘in’) of ARB, a reversal (‘coming back’) of B (‘British’) plus RA (‘artist’) in HOUR (‘time’). | ||
| 25 | FURTIVE |
Female virtue cracked secret (7)
|
| A charade of F (‘female’) plus URTIVE, an anagram (‘cracked’) of ‘virtue’. | ||
| DOWN | ||
| 1 | PUPA |
Young adult in passive stage (4)
|
| A charade of PUP (‘young’ particularly of a dog) plus A (‘adult’). | ||
| 2 | ELEPHANT |
Footballer on the up – hard worker and big beast! (8)
|
| A charade of ELEP, a reversal (‘on the way up’ in a down light) of PELE (‘footballer’) plus H (‘hard’) plus ANT (‘worker’). | ||
| 3 | ASTRAY |
Husband leaving smoking pot in a lost state (6)
|
| AS[ h]TRAY (‘smoking pot’) minus the H (‘husband leaving’). | ||
| 4 | LENIENCY |
Communist country’s borders admitting drug tolerance (8)
|
| An envelope (‘admitting’) of E (‘drug’) in LENIN (‘communist’) plus CY (CountrY‘s borders’). | ||
| 5 | APPEAL |
“Howzat” call from Lyon saving Australia (6)
|
| An envelope (‘saving’) of A (the second one, ‘Australia’) in APPEL (French noun, ‘call from Lyon’). | ||
| 6 | GREY |
Old nag (4)
|
| Double definition, the second being a horse. Grey is the standard British spelling, but I would not say that gray is wrong. | ||
| 11 | UNFAIREST |
Most partisan United fan whipped up anger on street (9)
|
| A charade of U (‘united’) plus NFA, an anagram (‘whipped up’) of ‘fan’ plus IRE (‘anger’) plus ST (‘street’). | ||
| 12 | CLOSE |
Charlie to get away from 17ac (5)
|
| A charade of C (‘Charlie’) plus LOSE (‘get away from’). | ||
| 14 | STAMP |
Mark regularly using satnav maps (5)
|
| Alternate letters (‘regularly using’) of ‘SaTnAv MaPs’ | ||
| 16 | PEACEFUL |
Sleepy dictator’s gun loaded (8)
|
| Sounds like (‘dictator’s’) PIECE FULL (‘gun loaded’). | ||
| 17 | SHIPMATE |
Square couple holding joint for fellow traveller (8)
|
| An envelope (‘holding’) of HIP (‘joint’) in S (‘suare’) plus MATE (‘couple’). | ||
| 19 | NEARBY |
Barney Rubble is 12dn (6)
|
| An anagram (‘rubble’) of ‘barney’. | ||
| 20 | CIRCUS |
Show around a lost American (6)
|
| A charade of CIRC[a] (‘around’) minus the A (‘a lost’) plus US (‘American’). | ||
| 21 | CHAP |
Crack and heroin smuggled by 17ac (4)
|
| AN envelope (‘smuggled by’) of H (‘heroin’) in CAP (‘seal’, as an oil well); chap as in chapped lips. | ||
| 23 | NAVY |
Blue, like stilton supplied by Spooner (4)
|
| A Spoonerism (more or less) of VEINY (‘like stilton’). |
I can go part way to explaining Gary Player. If we read the middle of the clue as “not (the last for (Gary))” we get “not Y”, which tells us to take the Y off HARPY. (Instead of “Eagle not the last” which ends up at the same place but doesn’t explain Gary). So we are then left to explain Player=harp. A harp being an instrument gets us close, but no cigar, imo. To round it all off, there is the harp seal. Well, I tried.
I got as far as Dr WhatsOn with HARP
For seals there are HARP, ELEPHANT, LEOPARD, MONK, HARBOUR, GREY, CRAB EATER, BULL and PUP for types of sea mammal, plus CLOSE, PRIVY, NAVY, CIRCUS (performing), STAMP and COAT (varnish) for other SEALs.
Thank you to Brockwell and PeterO.
9a. Eagle = Harpy (not the last of garY) = Harp (whimsical definition of the instrument = player).
I think.
Yes, I parsed harp as Dr. WhatsOn @1 and Brigster @3. Musicians (players) especially in an orchestra, are often referred to by their instrument, hence “first violin”, not necessarily “first violinist”.
I think harp for harpist is a metonym, but I’m sure a lot more intelligent people on here will be able to tell us.
I was a bit gloomy about this, but having seen Shanne’s comment, this has raised my opinion to a fine crossword – I wish I had seen this earlier.
Must remember IV for drip for the future. Never heard of CRIP
Thanks PeterO and Brockwell
Liked HARP, SEAL, PUPA, APPEAL and NAVY.
Thanks Brockwell and PeterO.
Tim C @ 5. For what it’s worth, the conductor in my community orchestra routinely addresses us (the players) by our instrument or section name. (“Trumpets, can you hold back just a fraction, please . . ?”) So the instrument/part/player become synonymous.
I parsed HARPY as Brigster, but i first had to look up 2 TILTS. Only knew the derogatory term for a woman. Didnt know that it came from the eagle or mythical creature.
I never thought I’d see the day when a four letter word would become the source of a Spoonerism. Some tricky clues, topped by the aforementioned HARP which sadly meant a DNF this morning. Ely sometimes part of the fodder as the misdirecting word See, now as a City again. I’m always ready for either, having spent 30 years of my life working there. Couldn’t parse MONK, so many thanks PeterO…
If you haven’t read my announcement then please take a look here before commenting on this puzzle.
Thanks Peter O. Our time difference has changed too, and now you’d be the only blog up before my bedtime, so thank you for the effort. Yes, clever that either grey or gray would work. I quite liked the veiny cheese.
Enjoyed the puzzle, and the theme. I liked the way PRIVY and SEAL were next to each other at 16a and 17a. Despite already having SEAL, and the middle row often a place where themes are signalled, I hadn’t noticed, and took a bit of time cold-parsing PRIVY..
Thanks to Brockwell for a challenging puzzle and to PeterO for being up at crack of sparrowfart, as they say, to do the customarily workmanlike blog, including an impressive familiarity with the oeuvre of Seal.
I particularly liked some of the surfaces – in 9a, taking the last letter of Gary to arrive at a Player was neat; in 5d clever use is made of the fact that Nathan Lyon of Australia shares his surname with a French town; I’ve no doubt the use of Rubble as an anagram indicator with Barney has been done before, and I’ll just rejoice in having a rotten memory!
I wasn’t familiar with the use of “crip” to mean gang member, but there is a regular commenter on the Guardian’s general blog (and while I entirely agree with all you say, Mr Admin, if you want to see real gratuitous venom, have a look over there) who uses the nom-de-guerre Jessthecrip. And usually writes good sense, actually.
There is another seal with FURtive.
I enjoyed this puzzle and only had one disappointment. For 21d I put CHAT. there is a SEAL CAT and crack is an alternative spelling for the Irish craic which is synonymous with CHAT. I like PeterOs solution too which I expect is intended but I wondered if others had gone down the CHAT road? Thanks B and P
I figured Brockwell wanted GREY not GRAY as the Grey Seal is grey.
Paddymelon @12 – Well spotted, sir.
The remark attributed to Ernest Bevin that as Lord Privy Seal aka Minister without Portfolio he was “neither a Lord, nor a Privy, nor a Seal” is a chestnut, but still raises a smile three-quarters of a century later.
Interesting point ronald@ 10 about the 4-letter Spoonerism NAVY. The diphthong and long-vowel help. There can’t be many like that.
Another who parsed HARP as Brigster @3. SEAL was obviously the key and went in first, followed by CRAZY. Shanne @2 covers the theme beautifully, although I mistakenly thought it was an adjoining theme of animals. I also liked PRIVY and SEAL together as paddymelon @12. And other favourites were RE-ENGAGE, CHAP, MONK, SHIPMATE, NAVY and PEACEFUL. This setter is a breath of fresh air and I look forward to the next offering.
I loved the self-referenced album by SEAL so have no hesitation in posting the ear worm
https://youtu.be/4Fc67yQsPqQ.
Ta Brockwell & PeterO.
Yes, NeilH@7. It struck me that 15a , the 4 letter word before PRIVY SEAL could have been clued as LORD, but it would have deprived Brockwell of ELEPHANT. ( You can call me Siress, if you like 🙂 )
I’m with CanberraGirl@15 as far as chap/chat is concerned, but accept that the former parses better. Disappointed that it meant a failure for me, but a fine crossword.
Thanks Brockwell and PeterO (and Admin)
Good fun crossword – theme was integral but accessible which I think is the right way of doing it.
I was literally humming the tune of Crazy whilst not getting the answer
I thought the cluing was tremendous. I couldn’t recall Brockwell’s style, but this was great, especially PEACEFUL, SHIPMATE and NEARBY. Many thanks to B & P.
Very tough and the theme word SEAL scared me at first! The theme of various types of seals (ie the animal) passed me by as lately I tend to ignore themes in cryptic crossword puzzles. Thanks, Shanne@2 for pointing it out – that’s impressive. It reminded me that when I was about 20 years old I spent a lovely time swimming with seals in Western Australia – I don’t know (or don’t remember) what type they were but it was a very special experience.
I failed to solve 9ac and 1d.
New for me: CRIMP=flute; CRAZY= song/record by Seal (thanks, wikipedia); ASHTRAY= smoking pot (for 3d).
Thanks, both.
There is yet to be a Brockwell I have not enjoyed and our setter kept the ball rolling well with this one. SEAL went in early and I enjoyed finding it in its various guises as the puzzle progressed. I ran into a block with my last two, the interlinked GREY and LEOPARD and eventually revealed the first of those enabling the second to be completed. I spent too long trying to fit in I or ME or PEN for writer and had not considered POE. ROUTINELY, RE-ENGAGE, LENIENCY, SHIPMATE and PEACEFUL, together with HARP which I recognised as referring to the instrumentalist, were my faves.
Thanks Brockwell and PeterO
Paddymelon @20 – I stand corrected (apart from the fact that I’m sitting down ;-)).
But well spotted, anyway.
Postmark @25, I got LEOPARD by thinking we haven’t had that seal yet, does that work? to crack that NE corner. Seeing the theme also gave me GREY.
Shanne, I always find two word double defs difficult. Four letters, ending in Y, should have narrowed it down of course but I thought of neither of the two defs, I’m afraid. No complaints, though.
I got as far as Dr.WhatsOn @1 with HARP: orchestras do describe the player as the instrument (like the “first violin” ) so I suppose it is OK for the HARP to be its player.
I liked finding all the SEALs (thanks, David Attenborough!) Didn’t know crip=gang member and failed to parse PRIVY and APPEAL. Thanks Brockwell and PeterO.
I looked up Crip for gang member – and they are apparently a particular gang in South California, with turf wars with the Bloods.
Thanks Shanne. Finding a context for CRIP = gang member had me baffled.
I couldn’t see CIRCUS at all and CRAZY was a guess.
Thanks Brockwell and PeterO.
I was well off the wavelength today, managing about a third of the puzzle before realising quite how much time had passed when I really should have been doing other things. Thanks to our blogger for explaining all – it’s easy when you have everything laid out before you – and to the setter for some clever stuff.
A great puzzle. I was another with CHAT for CHAP. Among many good clues ROUTINELY was my favourite. Nice to see PostMark get a mention in his nom de plume.
New setter for me, and perhaps I’m just in a good mood (though I don’t think so!) as there were far more ticks today than I normally have, albeit a couple went in unparsed. Not an easy puzzle for me, by any means, but one which I thoroughly enjoyed (and wish I didn’t have to interrupt to do my job!).
Favourites were ROUTINELY, SHIPMATE, CRIMP, LENIENCY, ELEPHANT (clued without reference to 17ac), ASTRAY and PEACEFUL. And fantastic surfaces abound today, in my view, as well as some sneaky but fair definitions.
Needed 225 to see how CHAP = CRACK, parsing of PRIVY & APPEAL, and like others only half happy with HARP(y). nag = GREY felt a bit loose, but was not in any doubt I suppose.
Thanks Brockwell for a fantastic puzzle, and PeterO for the blog.
At first I feared this would be beyond me, but, gradually, things came together – and it ended up being rather satisfying.
My only quibble is that I really can’t imagine anyone ever calling an ashtray a “smoking pot”.
HARBOUR and LEOPARD were neat, Barney Rubble was sweet (and, now that I come to think of it, so was the original character).
The spoonerism didn’t make much sense, but then they rarely do, to my mind.
I part-parsed HARP, so all the above interpretations were interesting.
Thank you PeterO and Brockwell
I often see the word “accessible” describing cryptics and wonder what it means. Well I think this one has unravelled that mystery – as I felt this was very gettable, but a very nice challenge! Plenty of insertions and charades to make one feel smug, and open up the trickier clues, which were indeed tricky!
The Seal clues helped, naturally, but I liked the range of definitions that were used, as well as the mammal. The long list of seal types rather sealed the deal (stop that), although I like others couldn’t work out HARP until I came here. Thanks Brockwell, this was great (and ta for the blog PeterO!)
Not for me this one. I put in STAMP and PUPA quickly then my heart sank when I saw all of the clues referring to 17a. I revealed it which gave me BULLISH and considered googling types of seal but I spend enough of my life on Google; I prefer to get as far as I can with my own resources and I’m still very much a novice. I wasn’t on this setter’s wavelength so I went for a walk in the lovely sunshine instead. I’ll wait for the weekend’s easier cryptics.
Slightly surprised that some haven’t heard of the notorious Bloods & Crips but if it doesn’t cross your radar, why would you?
I got the theme promptly, which obviously helped with the cross-references to other definitions of the word and to the musician. Conversely it did not help me much with the animal references as my knowledge of the natural world is limited. The only seal I recalled was 2D, which was elegantly clued.
Overall this was mostly in my sweet spot of “just hard enough”, although 8D and 5D defeated me. However, I cannot complain that the clues in question are anything but fair.
19D was my favorite surface.
Thank you PeterO and Brockwell.
I quite enjoyed this. I noticed all the non-mammalian SEALs while solving, but oddly enough didn’t see the species of mammals until after the solve.
Re the Seal song CRAZY: I’m sure I’ve heard it, but I can only think right now of the much earlier Patsy Cline* and the rather later Gnarls Barkley songs of the same name. And it’s still too early in the morning to play music right now (my husband has taken to sleeping in, and I don’t want to wake him), so I’ll have to save that for later.
(* Patsy gets an asterisk, because that song was written by a then-struggling songwriter by the name of Willie Nelson. He did eventually get the opportunity to record it himself, of course, but…no one could sing a torch song like Patsy Cline, so it’s firmly her song.)
@6 ‘The Crips’ is the name of a gang in Los Angeles
I thought the gang member was a CHIMP, but I now see the collective noun for chimpanzees is troop. Pity really, it almost works.
Il get my coat.
A challenging but satisfying grind. Thank you to Brockwell and PeterO.
… forgot to thank mrpenney @40 for reminding me of the great Patsy Kline. No one but she could deliver that song like that.
10ac, ‘the usual heavy defeat at home by City’ didn’t happen last night, did it? And no, I’m very far from being a Spurs fan.
Perfect.
This was exactly the right degree of difficulty for me. Took a while, but I finally finished it – feeling very satisfied.
Nice smooth surfaces, brilliant number of seals of many types (thanks, Shanne@2), and a four letter Spoonerism (which I could even solve).
Loved it.
Got 17ac straight away which filled me with hope but my lack of knowledge of different types of seal let me down. Still got half the clues which is good for me. A very enjoyable and clever puzzle -:and thanks for the helpful blog.
Got 17ac straight away which filled me with hope but my lack of knowledge of different types of seal let me down. Still got half the clues which is good for me. A very enjoyable and clever puzzle -:and thanks PeterO for the helpful blog.
Sorry about the duplication!
Many thanks to PeterO for the blog and to everyone else who solved and commented on the puzzle. I’m very happy that most of you seemed to enjoy it. I completely understand the objection to HARP, but TimC @4 summarises my thought process neatly. Gary Player and the eagle felt too good to ignore, but perhaps I should have 😉. All the best, B
Grecian, thanks for popping in and glad you didn’t ignore it, it was a particular favourite, as was the player himself, in my youth.
Oh! So it’s a Harpy Eagle! Smart boy wanted.
Got about 1/3 of the clues solved, and then hit a wall. I’ve given it a fair crack of the whip since I left it til now to reveal, but this one utterly defeated me.
I thought this was absolutely tremendous. Great use of the theme, really liked how some of the SEALS were not referenced back to 17ac. Plus some superb surfaces (APPEAL is wonderful). Favourite was COAT.
Thanks for the blog , a combined keystone and ghost theme which is rare , Excellent set of neat and clever clues , one of my favourite setters now.
I don’t think I recall ever seeing a 4 letter Spoonerism before so for that alone I salute Brockwell
I found this a challenging but enjoyable solve! I spent an embarrassingly long time staring at Barney Rubble thinking it couldn’t possibly be an anagram before the penny finally dropped and unlocked the SW corner.
Favourites were APPEAL, MONK and my last one in RE-ENGAGE.
Thanks PeterO and Brockwell, and also those previous commenters who highlighted the many seals that I did not spot when solving! A lovely puzzle.
An entertaining puzzle, with a slightly unusual combination of an overt theme (with cross-references to 17a) and a ghost theme. I like this combination, as the ghosting means that part of the theme can be ignored; I surprised myself by noticing some of the ghosts while solving, and saw the rest of them before coming here to compare findings.
I was another who had never heard of, or had forgotten, and in fact still find it hard to believe in, Crips, and like one or two others had toyed with CHIMPS, which of course didn’t work.
Liked the Spoonerism!
Like Mark@28 (congrats on the name check at 14d, btw) I sometimes struggle with very brief, double definitions, especially of short words, but I was lucky that GREY came to me fairly quickly. (A cross-reference to 17a would have helped, but the solve would have been just a tad less satisfying in consequence. 😀)
Thanks to Brockwell and to PeterO.
For 22a I had MK as the abbreviation of uMkhonto weSizwe, the military wing of the ANC during apartheid in South Africa. But as that was an arcane historical reference I dragged up from somewhere in my memory I’m happy with the blogged interpretation.
Thanks Brockwell and PeterO! A very nice puzzle with a lot of clever constructions, too many to name really! I missed all the extra seals and was thrown off for a bit trying to work how “Kiss from a Rose” would fit into 12ac.
Best of the week so far…
Spent far too long on 16d trying to think of dictators beginning with P…
17a was a bit of a gift which made everything much easier.
Looking forward to checking the parsing and reading the blog.
I simply loved this. Thank you so much Grecian@50 for the puzzle and for stopping in to say hello. mrpenney@40, I love both singers, so lots of earworms for me today. I do have to admit that even after I solved NAVY I really couldn’t see why it was a Spoonerism until PeterO explained 🤣.
Nice work from Brockwell – my only problem was with CRAZY where (as usual! 🙂 ) I’d never heard of the second definition – nor the person performing it. Although I now recall a song from the 1960s: “What A Crazy World We’re Living In” by Joe Brown. For some reason the lyrics to that song stick in the old grey matter….
Great to get so many SEALs into the grid – most of them seem to be of the marine mammal variety but there’s PRIVY and NAVY to include in the list. Seem to be an unusually large number of ‘Y’s in this puzzle for some reason.
Took me a while to parse CIRCUS – for no very good reason!
Re definition of HARP – it’s quite normal to refer to members of an orchestra by their instrument. For instance if a score includes “three trombones” you’re calling for three trombonists to perform – hence ‘players’. So the clue’s fine.
Favourites? Hard to pick one. Perhaps LENIENCY, PEACEFUL, PRIVY stand out for me.
Thanks to Brockwell and Peter.
HIYD@61: that thought passed by me too. “Putin”? “Pinochet”? “Papa Doc”? But that was a false trail…
Nice puzzle. I am improving. I could do most of it but, as most of the time, I had to “cheat” in the end.
Also I forgot to thank fifteensquared and the bloggers for the parsing of solutions. This is very valuable to me to improve my skills and very much appreciated.
Absolutely loved this one and yet again I find myself in awe as to how many variants of seal were shoehorned into the grid without the need for very left field obscurities to fill in the gaps. HARP was my only hesitation but having the A and P and my list of seals to hand, the answer leapt out even if the parsing left a bit of headscratching. An excellent puzzle indeed. I did swerve the wrong way with CHIMP and CHAT, but once I tried CRIMP and it worked, knew of the crips (and bloods).
Thanks to PeterO for the informative blog and Brockwell for the wonderful experience.
I got HARP from the crossers and HARP-Y (though I thought they were just generic birds of prey with iron beaks rather than specifically eagles), but justified it to myself from the Cockney rhyming slang Gary Player = All Dayer (drinking session; no I didn’t know it either till I googled it). Harp was a pretty weak type of lager back in the day, so could conceivably be something you might take as your tipple to get through an extended stay in the pub. Not terribly convincing even to me, but it sufficed.
I really liked PRIVY, got it with the crossers and realised I’d been thinking of the wrong toilet, completely the wrong type of peer and couldn’t even think of a drip. Which is what clever surfaces are all about, I suppose.
So pleased to see this setter in the Graun squad!
I thought of HARP as the metonym too, but then it came to me that it could equally be the implied ergative use of the verb “to play”. Just as apples can be cookers or eaters, there’s no reason why the instrument shouldn’t be a “player” either.
Thanks for great stuff all round.
What does 5dAPPEAL have to do with “Howzat”?
Howzat is an appeal in cricket Valentine @71
Valentine@71. I think HOWZAT is a homophone of “How is that?” when a bowler asks the umpire whether the batsman should be dismissed. Or something along those lines.
Are OLD and GREY synonyms?
Clearly they are often used together. But I don’t think that “old and grey” is a pleonasm like “safe and sound”.
As a relative struggling novice I couldn’t finish this puzzle – like most of them! Kicking myself for not looking for types of seal. However, on revealing HARP I figured it was what Gary Player would be holding when he got to heaven – so that, rather than a scoring an Eagle, would be his last? I couldn’t see anyone else had offered this version.