Guardian 29,534 / Maskarade

98 comments on “Guardian 29,534 / Maskarade”

1. A welcome relief after yesterday’s torture and the solutions flowed in nicely. I liked WINE LIST, TUTORING, HOSIER, QUINCE, POACHER and EXAMINER. I couldn’t parse THERESA last night but got a tip on the G thread this morning, which gave it away, even though I didn’t know the name of the song. It seems that May is doing double duty, Eileen, but I agree, it is a strange construction. Very pleasant solve.

   Ta Maskarade & Eileen.

2. Thanks Maskarade and Eileen
   Mostly straightforward, though I needed a word search for NHO ACCIDENCE.
   I had EDUCATORS first for 14d – perfectly valid, but I didn’t like it!
   2d doesn’t work, as the song lyric has to be “There is a tavern on the town”, or it doesn’t scan.
   Favourite WINE LIST, as I saw the “Graves” immediately!

3. Thanks Maskarade and Eileen
   Mostly straightforward, though I needed a word search for NHO ACCIDENCE.
   I had EDUCATORS first for 14d – perfectly valid, but I didn’t like it!
   2d doesn’t work, as the song lyric has to be “There is a tavern in the town”, or it doesn’t scan.
   Favourite WINE LIST, as I saw the “Graves” immediately!
   [The site keeps saying “Duplicate comment”, though it hasn’t posted yet.]

4. It has now, muffin!
   I agree with you about the song lyric.

5. I parsed THERESA but winced, and then had the earworm from the song, but I know a lot of folk and sing along songs from campfires. Muffin @2/3 it’s sung There’s – long to get everyone in.

   I thought the containment indicator in OFFICIAL was out OFFAL (light) out ICI, but I usually quibble a bit when blogging Maskarade.

   Thank you Eileen and Maskarade.

6. Some fairly loose clueing in places but at least it wasn’t a jigsaw 🙂

   Ticks for LAST DITCH, ACCIDENCE & PLAITS

   Cheers

7. Straightforward is exactly how I would describe this puzzle today too, though had no idea how THERESA parsed exactly…

8. Surely a rowing team is a four? So fours are more than one team?

9. Muffin @3 I agree with you. First time for everything 🙂

10. Another setter might have used THERESA in 2D as a homophone for the start of the song; it would then have scanned properly and met the objections of Muffin@2, (though probably producing groans all round). I had EXAMINERS for 14D, which I think also works when you use “pass” as a transitive verb.

11. [Shanne @5 – that tune is a family earworm at the moment: my toddler great grandson has just learned ‘Heads, shoulders, knees and toes’.]

12. Although there was much to like here, Maskarade really does play fast and loose with the cryptic grammar and indicators. I don’t think “about” can be an anagrind when it precedes a phrase and ideally there should be a separate indicator for “scot” having to be jumbled. Likewise “out” is not a containment indicator, a rowing team is a four surely (why fours plural?) and I can see slander as a smear but why smear tactics (again plural)?

    But among the others I was misdirected in multiple ways, which is a good sign – on aldehyde and many of the CDs (including Graves where I went down the author route), and it was good to see “carter” as the president. Or do I mean that it *would* be good to see…

    In 25ac I thought “standard” referred to the “standard model” of particle physics as the accepted model, which has been around the best part of half a century now. It could be a triple definition as well, in which case is it a quadruple (standard, model, standard model and flag?)

    Many thanks to Maskarade and Eileen.

13. THERESA is a clever idea that didn’t quite click because the song (as usually sung) emphasises that there IS a tavern in the town, so it doesn’t come easily to mind. ACCIDENCE and ALDEHYDE were unfamiliar but constructable from wordplay, whereas QUINCE was familiar but I failed to parse it. I liked WINE LIST, OFFICIAL, SUNSHADE and SASSAFRAS.

    Hands up if you wasted time trying to remove either A or I from Orcadian to make an anagram? Just me, I expect.

14. I feel that educators is a better solution because their job is to pass on knowledge. Examinees can’t really be said to pass on knowledge because the setters and markers have the knowledge already.
    Wine list was my last one in, and a guess by filling in the gaps because I have never heard of the Graves wine region. The problem with cryptic definitions is that there is no way to construct the answer if it is outside your general knowledge.

15. ravenrider@14: I took it that the examinees pass (the exam) on (i.e as a result of) their knowledge.

16. gladys @13
    You are not alone!

17. At the start of this I had hopes of a pangram (having QUINCE, EXITS and PLAZA early doors), but it didn’t transpire…

    Nice puzzle, thanks Maskarade and Eileen.

18. As AlanC says @1…a blessed relief after yesterday!

    LOI was THERESA which I now think is brilliant, despite May doing double duty.

    Spent too long convinced that Graves was the poet so WINE LIST came very late.

    Thoroughly enjoyable crozzie, many thanks, both.

19. Lewis isn’t actually an island. Strictly speaking it’s Lewis and Harris.

    Although the northern part is known as The Isle of Lewis.

20. Admin @19 – that’s explained in the link I gave, hence my comment on the neat play on ‘partially’. 😉

21. Pleasant crossword which slipped down easily for me – fortunately I hit upon the right meaning of Graves immediately, and (as a chemist) ALDEHYDE was a write-in. (It helps that I don’t tackle puzzles by trying to solve all the across clues first, but instead take advantage of crossing letters that early entries provide.)

    I agree that there is some dubious wording in the clues. I don’t mind that the song begins ‘there IS a…’ rather than THERE’S A, but for the grammar of the wordplay it should read: ‘May precedeS…’, although this would have damaged the surface.

    But these rough edges didn’t spoil my enjoyment. ALDEHYDE (natch), LAST DITCH and ACCIDENCE got my vote.

    Thanks to Maskerade and Eileen

22. Thanks Maskerade and Eileen: you may be interested in this article on cairns

23. gladys @13: I also tried to find an anagram of Orcadian minus a letter, until the solution hit me…

24. Eileen@20 – the clever reference to Lewis being partial in both wordplay and definition seemed to me to be let down by the placement of the brackets. Wouldn’t it have been much better as “…(Lewis partially)”? I even wondered if it was a typo.

25. Dave Ellison @22

    Oh dear! – that’s us for the naughty step. 🙁
    (They were only very small stones and it was when we thought that was the tradition. My days of climbing Pen Hill are, alas, long gone.)
    Thanks, anyway. 😉

26. gladys @13 & muffin @16 – another hand up here, too 🙂

27. Admin @19 – isn’t that why “partially” is doing double-duty??
    DuncT @24 – you beat me to it!

28. A largely satisfying solve, with few real challenges until we hit a wall with the last couple. Theresa was the last to go in at the final count.

29. A delightful puzzle for those, like me, who are not yet in the SPL ( Solvers’ Premier League ).
    A sprinkling of “comfortable” clues to get those crossers started, and building up nicely to some quite tricky ones.

    Lots of deft misdirection, I felt, perfectly compiled and perfectly fair.
    On which note, “Graves”, in 8 across, successfully sold me some dummies: Robert Graves the poet; phonetic accents; or simply burial sites? Lovely setting. ( not the burial sites ).

    Thankfully, “two sharp bends”, which fooled me recently, rang the bell for “Z”.

    One tiny niggle, not totally in love with “dealer” in the HOSIER clue, where I felt that “horse-trader” would be tighter, and also create a red-herring, ( “tough business negotiator”). Obviously, I’m not in the Setters’ Premier League, either!

    2 down (brilliant) was a gungadin for me, I stared at THERESA for ages before the parsing finally clicked; for me, a cracker.
    Completely a pleasure to complete.

    Salutations, Maskarade + Eileen

30. As a mountain, CATHEDRAL PEAK can be found in a number of US states as well as the Drakensberg. It’s possible one or two of them might have a CAIRN, maybe with ‘stone-breaking’ saxifraga, from which plant name Sassafras may or may not be derived. Happy accidence? Theresa question.
    Thank you Maskarade and Eileen.

31. Sagittarius @10 I too had EXAMINERS, and I also think it works. EXAMINEES is better I think, but I think our solution is also valid.

    Great fun otherwise.

32. Tough and enjoyable.

    9ac seemed barely cryptic.

    I couldn’t parse the AL bit of 21ac – I didn’t know that LIGHTS = offal; and 2d – never heard that song!

    New for me: ACCIDENCE; GRAVES = a white or red wine from the district around Bordeaux, France.

    Another one who entered EDUCATORS at first for 14d.

33. [13d “Trousers added to rowing team” FOUR PLUS FOUR = eight]

34. The misplaced brackets in ‘(Lewis) partially’, and ‘team’ rather than ‘teams’ to match (PLUS) FOURS seem to me to be proof-reading errors.

35. A not quite finish for me because I went from EDUCATORS to EXAMINERS, but failed by one letter. Many thanks to Eileen for the excellent blog and for putting me right on that. Couldn’t parse OFFICIALLY either because I forgot light can be offal. I had the same favourites as Eileen, plus SLANDER which I initially thought was an anagram – I’m glad I wasn’t alone. Has it been done before? THERESA LOI and made me smile when I finally twigged. Many thanks Maskerade, it’s good to see more of you midweek 😎

36. The fact is that I was relieved to solve my second clue, that being more than I managed yesterday. I went on to complete it bar SUNSHADE, which somehow just eluded me.

    The obscurities in this were far more surmountable than my experience yesterday, and I was pleased to get the NHO SASSAFRAS from parsing and definition. The ‘Graves’ for WINE LIST, and ‘lights’ for OFFAL, also NHO.

    Fun, though, both in itself and after near-total failure in the face of Vlad’s puzzle.

37. scraggs et al
    “lights” are what butchers call lungs, as people are reluctant to buy them under their correct name!

38. Thanks muffin @37. Hopefully I’ll remember that should it come up again.

39. [Not really relevant to the crossword at all, but 26 reminded me of a lad who was 4 years below me at school. When he came up into our boarding house, I asked him his name. “Lewis,” he said. “And your first name?” “Lewis.” “No, your first name.” “Lewis.” You can fill in the back and forth for yourselves, but I finally twigged: “Your name is Lewis Lewis.” “Yes.” “Why?”
    It transpired that his father was a teacher, and didn’t want to be thought to be showing favour to his son by calling him by his first name. Fair enough, in a rather odd way.]

40. Oh dear! After yesterday’s fine challenge this was so straightforward and even then there are a few quibbles along the way.

    The rowing team is surely a four (not plural) as mentioned already. Other quibbles as above.

    Thanks Maskarade and Eileen

41. JFT@12; although at least one editor disagrees, there is no necessity for two anagrinds in eg 12 provided the indicator is placed first. Thus, an anagram of coups d’etat could be UPDATE/scot, so the ‘scot’ can be simply removed. I thought the ‘lights out’ for OFFICIAL was just ‘off’ leaving me with an unexplained ‘al’, doh.

    Thanks Maskarade and Eileen.

42. muffin @37: Quite right that ‘lights’ are lungs – which means that this is strictly a definition by example, as ‘offal’ is a term for all internal organs. Offal is sometimes given the euphemism ‘variety meats’ in the US, and in Rome, where it was traditionally popular amongst the thrifty, as ‘il quinto quarto’ (the fifth quarter).

43. 2D defeated me. Otherwise this was just about the right amount of difficult for me.

44. I have observed previously that the setter’s job is to be clever but not too-clever-by-half, and I think Maskarade, like Vlad, is a setter who likes to tiptoe near that boundary. But most of the time today I think he stays the right side.
    “Leading troops” to give “T” in 4d is, as Eileen observes, frequently disapproved of. Apart from the fact that “Ximenes said so”, I have never been able to understand why.
    Quite a lot of people insist that when you are doing a subtractive anagram, as in 12a where the fodder is COUPS D’ETAT less SCOT, you should solemnly attach an anagram indicator to the bit you’re subtracting. I don’t think “confused Scot dismissed” is necessary, though “treacherous Scot dismissed” might have been fun.
    And then…
    One of the sensible things Ximenes wrote was that when you had solved the clue, you should be able to be certain you had the correct answer. And for the reason given by Sagittarius @10, EXAMINERS is really an equally valid solution to 14d.
    As has been pointed out, a rowing team can be a four, but that means that 13d should read “…added to rowing teams”
    21a is a curious one – it’s easily soluble, having solved it you can be confident it’s right, but as Eileen observes, where is the containment indicator? “Approved lights around here in France” would surely be sounder.
    2d again is soluble, you can be confident you’ve got the right answer, but however you stack it, the clue is actually unfair. The wordplay points you to “There’s a” where the words of the song are “There is a”; surely the clue requires a “colloquially” or “shortly” somewhere?
    And if you parse the wording as “May [definition] – precede tavern in the town [wordplay]” the grammar requires “precedes”. If it is “May [definition] – May precede tavern in the town [wordplay]” (leaving aside the need for the “shortly”) then, as others have said, the “May” is doing a lot of work. Is this necessarily so terrible? I’ve seen it suggested that double duty is an absolute no-no; but then if we get the ultimate double duty, the &lit clue, we exclaim how clever it is.
    Takes our minds off the election of a lazy, greedy, racist rabble-rouser with an appalling attitude to women and a track record of serial lying, I suppose. Thank goodness such a thing could never happen here.
    Thanks to Maskarade and Eileen

45. Thanks for the elucidation of OFFAL — not something I eat, and not something I knew the alternate term for. Like Robi@41 I thought it might have to do with lights out, but couldn’t figure the “al”. 8A WINE LIST was a fail for me. NHO GRAVES and nothing in the crossers to help. I thought it might have to do with the writer or perhaps the accents.

46. Gervase @42
    Good point about the DBE.

47. Redrodney@8 yes, an eight, a four and a pair are all rowing boats. So ‘fours’ is a plural. I have rowed in all three and can confirm that in each case I was in a crew not a team. Calling a rowing crew a team is like calling a diver’s mask and fins ‘goggles and flippers’. It grates horribly. More generally I found this really mixed. Some clues were so obvious I thought I must be wrong. A séance is surely a meeting with a spirit so the definition isn’t cryptic. As a result, I refused to put it in until I got all the crossers. Other clues were really good fun and some were a bit strained. I revealed the last few because I just lost interest. But lots of people liked it so that’s just my opinion.

48. NeilH@44, I was still typing when you posted. I got examiner too for the same reason but decided I was wrong. Maybe not.

49. As long as I draw breath, I will continue to fight the good fight against clueing (e.g.) the string of letters “CATH” as “little girl”. It just doesn’t work.

50. I parsed graves as the diacritics that are liberally sprinkled in a wine list. Oh, well…

51. Fru @ 49 – Why doesn’t it? I’m curious as to why you say that.

52. Eileen @25 etc, thank you for your erudite blog, as ever, and link to a familiar cairn. Sorry, everyone else, for veering off topic, but Penhill / Hazely was the view from our old cottage in West Burton.

53. I wrote down ‘there is a’ as soon as I read the clue but failed to make the leap to Theresa May until the penny dropped much later on. Then I ticked it.
    I thought that SS for on board had been pensioned off in crosswordland years ago. You don’t get steamships any more. MV is more common (though less useful to setters).

54. I didn’t remember the tavern song, and was willing to give Maskarade a pass on the quibbly bits discussed at length above, because I was delighted to learn what Orcadian meant when I looked it up. I never knew that!

55. It’s someone who likes killer whales and the late Princess of Wales, isn’t it?

56. Although EXAMINERS is a possibility for 14dn, EXAMINEES is a much better fit. ‘Pass’, when relating to examinations, is much more frequently used to refer to the candidate: ‘I passed my driving test’ is a common construction, whereas ‘the examiner passed me’ is rather odd. EXAMINERS also requires ‘they’ and ‘their’ in the clue to refer to different persons, which again is possible, though confusing out of context. There are languages which have a proximate and an obviative third person (the latter is sometimes called a ‘fourth person’) which disambiguates such sentences – but not English 🙂

57. [Steppie @52

    We used to have a static caravan at Chantry Park, West Witton. Since having to give that up, I’ve had a couple of holidays in a cottage in beautiful West Burton.]

58. Neil @55 – yes, of course it is!

59. [Eileen @57
    WB is a lovely community, shame our paths didn’t (knowingly) cross. It was becoming impractical to keep it up]

60. @56 Gervase very interesting. I recently successfully completed a test and the examiner told me he was pleased to pass me. I appreciate the examiner may lack knowledge around the obviate and proximate third person, indeed he may be a complete dullard and have used bad English. It made sense to me. I do agree examinee is a better solution, although, maddeningly, my auto correct doesn’t recognise it. It was a refresher belay test, out of interest.

61. Despite a valiant thrust I was beaten in the southwest. SEANCE… Is that really a cryptic definition? That clue wouldn’t be out of place in the daily quick, imo. I’m just bitter because the clever clues eluded me 🙂

62. FWIW I’ve always sung ‘There’s a tavern in a town’, never ‘there is …’. Fits the tune well, in the same way as ‘head and shoulders, knees and toes…’

63. Gervase @56 I agree with all that, except for describing examinees as ‘a better fit’. Both -ers and -ees are a perfect fit. I put examiners because I came to it first, having come via educators. I was pleased with it as a solution because it made the clue better than expected, requiring a cute use of pass and the pronoun shift you describe.
    Examinees requires less explanation, so in a situation where one had to make a decision as to what was intended, the better decision would be to choose examinees. But we do not have that situation here. Once solvers have found a word that fits the crossing letters and is a perfect match for the clue they are done.
    I don’t mind having a solution that doesn’t match the published one, and don’t think I made an error. The failure to spot the alternative was not my failure, but the setter’s. But it’s not really a failure on the setter’s part either. It’s just as unrealistic to expect setters to look for alternative solutions as solvers. It’s a rare accident.

64. Dr. WhatsOn @54: On a trip to Orkney last year (as part of a tour of the highlands and islands) I was pleased to be able to message a couple of friends with “Et in Orcadia ego”. Mind you, I also spent an inordinate amount of time wondering how to convert “Scotlander” or the erroneous “Shetlander” to “Slander” by subtraction of a word meaning “tactics” so am feeling a lot less clever now!

    Job@53: You do still get steamships – I was on one a month ago, the SS Sudan, on the Nile. It is, admittedly, the last one on the Nile, with a wonderful history, but still sailing.

    Robi@41: I accept that the need for one or two anagrinds does seem to vary with commentators. Thinking about it, you need two when the subtraction fodder does not immediately follow the anagram fodder, so I think this example is OK. However, there is no anagrind as “about” preceding the fodder cannot be an instruction to shuffle the letters.

65. @62 I have also only known “There’s a tavern ..”. I suppose it’s usually passed down orally and different traditions or corruptions have built up. I was certainly surprised by the confidence with which the more familiar version was dismissed! It was a relief to find I’m not alone.

66. @NeilH – I really don’t like when a boy’s name is clued as “boy”, or vice versa for girls. It feels untrue to the spirit of solving a clue. For me, there needs to be something that makes me feel like I “solved” it by understanding the reference, rather than just picking boy’s name until one would work. E.G. For “Deb-“, what clue wouldn’t feel jazzed up by referring to “Mrs Meaden shortly…” rather than “girl…”?

67. Ravenrider@14 EXAMINEES do sometimes pass on knowledge. It wasn’t unknown when I was at school for answers to be shared when the invigilating teacher wasn’t looking. 🙂

68. Thanks for all the comments, suggestions and extra titbits. (I’ve been away from the blog for most of the afternoon.)

    I was expecting more comment on the exact repetition of the clue at 22dn from Maskarade’s puzzle three weeks ago. That really shouldn’t happen.

    Jack of Few Trades @64 – you must have been very pleased to be able to send that brilliant message: I reckon there must be a crossword clue lurking in there!
    [Please forgive this indulgence: I do love the versatility of that little Latin word ‘et’, as in ‘et in Arcadia ego’, then in Aeneid (!)Book II, it can mean ‘also’, ‘even’ or even ‘especially’, giving several possible interpretations of Laocoön’s advice to the Trojans: “Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes” (“I fear the Greeks – and / also / even / especially when they bring gifts”.]

69. [Eileen @68
    Thanks for that. I didn’t realise the depths hidden in “Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes”]

70. Found this a struggle but nearly all the clues seemed obvious once I’d either parsed them or guessed the answer. Unlike a number of people here and in the Guardian comments, 2D was my first in!

    Jack of Few Trades @64 – I wish I could claim to have been that cerebral when I was in the Orkneys, but sadly I was more excited about passing through a famous unfortunately named village…

71. [Fru @66: Most of us are irritated by certain devices which setters use. For me it was the one which Vlad used yesterday: ‘Cafe rent’s low on reflection’ – where the apostrophe S is a contraction of ‘has’. My objection was that this is not a normal usage where ‘has’ is indicating possession. ‘That man’s a pig’ would be interpreted as ‘That man IS a pig’ rather than ‘… HAS a pig’. But it pops up so often that I have grown accustomed to it by now.

    I’m sorry that you don’t like the boy/girl device. You’re not the only one, but most of us just accept it as part of the setter’s armoury. And it’s so well established that no amount of complaining is likely to make it go away. There are even vaguer words that occur sometimes: plant/animal, for instance.]

72. Found that CATHERDRAL was an anagram of READ L AT CH, which got me the answer, which I then parsed properly. Some coincidence!

73. An enjoyable puzzle tha for once I could finish without cheating

    Being French, with one of my great uncle who was a “chevalier du tastevin” and in charge of a Bercy wine warehouse, and another great uncle who used to carry wine from producers to wine merchant in his tank truck, WINE LIST was the first I put in!

74. Sorry for so many typos (missing ‘s’ in particular) in my previous message.

75. Only just finished, very held up in NW (ashamedly didn’t know what a cairn was, never heard that tavern song, and was thinking authors and accents for Graves). Not a majority view I realise but I found this more difficult than yesterday’s Vlad; I think some of us rely more than others on the cryptic (cf straight) bit of the clue, and Maskarade is – perhaps refreshingly – pretty free with his indicators. I also had EXAMINERS for EXAMINEES, but agree the first is a much better fit. I noticed in Maskarade (Tom Johnson)’s ‘Meet the Setter’ that he “was a modern language teacher at a local secondary school for over 30 years; during 20 of them I was also the school’s examination officer, responsible for all aspects of the school’s internal and external exams.” So I daren’t question that particular clue. Thank you Maskarade and Eileen, teachers both!

76. Frogman @ 73 – it seems there ought to be an appropriate collective noun for such a congenial set of great uncles!
    (I do love your pseudonym. 😉 )

77. Good spot, Adrian @75!

78. [My daughter has just started doing this crossword. She is trying hard to persuade me that DEAD POET is a better answer to 8a, though WINE LIST was actually my FOI!]

79. Very enjoyable. Thanks Maskerade and Eileen. I had a few questions about some clues but find that they have all been raised above.

80. Gervase@71. Your “apostrophe-s” comment is fully supported by the editorial guidance notes for Times setters, which assert that “apostrophe-s” mustn’t be used to indicate “has=possesses”. Rather, it should be treated in the perfect tense, so that, eg, “man’s got craft” is OK for “HEART” but “man’s craft” is not. On a related note, a clue (in another place) yesterday — “Bladed instrument in Mike’s shed (3)” — was meant to indicate HOME minus M. But neither the ‘is’ wordplay option, “HOME M is shed” nor the ‘has’ option “HOME M has got shed” really offer the required “HOME in which M is/has been shed”. That is, apostrophe-s requires close inspection!

81. I’ve not always been kind about Maskarade’s holiday puzzles but I’m loving his dailies. He’s joining my list of top favourites along with Paul and Philistine.

82. I am mightily puzzled by the posts linking “There is a tavern in the town” to “Heads and shoulders, knees and toes”. Two totally different tunes, surely?

83. I thought this was the least enjoyable crossword I’ve done in months.

84. Hi TassieTim @82 – I know you live at the opposite side of the world and may well have different tunes.

    Try this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZanHgPprl-0
    alongside the link I gave on the blog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0GPdJlDPVU
    – it worked for us all on Bonfire Night. 😉

    I think this must be one of the most outlandish responses I’ve ever given to a query, so late on!

85. As an actual Orcadian, 20d was my favourite clue. 🙂 Did anyone else start looking for a pangram after getting PLAZA, EXITS and QUINCE?

86. Apparently so, Piglet @85 – see various comments.

    Welcome to the site, if this is your first comment and my apologies if it isn’t – my memory is not what it was.

    You must have been pleased with ‘Orcadian’ – I’ve always thought it was a lovely word.

87. Re: 2d (which I think is a splendid clue), I’ve heard different versions of the song using either “There is” or “There’s”. In fact, no greater an authority than Max Bygraves himself sang “There’s a tavern…”.

    And TassieTim @82 – in my experience “There’s a Tavern” is always sung to the same tune as “Heads, Shoulders”.

88. 4 clues solved. Very tricky for me.

89. James @63: how is EXAMINERS a perfect match though? For that to be the answer, on (in the clue) is there just to muddy the waters. The clue *only* works as a cryptic def for EXAMINEES, disguised by it being a straight one for teachers/educators, with examinees passing on [the basis of] what they know, and educators handing down what they know. That twist, or conflict, is all there is, isn’t it?

90. Thanks, Eileen – I read the blogs quite often, but have only posted once or twice so far.

91. Eileen @86 et al. Very late, I realise. The tune used in Australia is not “There is a tavern in the town…” (which I know as the tune Nat King Cole sang in your link). My wife taught childcarers, and the one she uses – and the one we sang with our kids – is as done in the link above.

92. Thanks Eileen and Maskarade (only you will get the notification of this post and read it I suspect, as I did this one well after it was published). It was a really enjoyable, doable puzzle and an interesting, thorough blog which made for a good read.

93. Gobbo @89
    ‘Examiners may award passes on the basis of what examinees demonstrate that they know’ seems like a sentence that can be naturally compressed into the clue.
    By perfect fit, I only mean that there are no parts of the clue that are unexplained. I don’t mean it is a perfect clue, or that it is not a better clue to some other word, or that the wording is not a bit tricky. My point is that a solver does not consider any of those possible deficiencies once they have found an answer that fits and that matches every part of the clue.

94. Eileen @68
    Forsan et have olim meminisse iuvabit

95. Never too late, TassieTim (thanks for that). As Julie says, at least I get to see all the comments.

    Rupert @94 – very glad not to miss your comment.
    Thank you for that reminder: another fine example. This has made me feel like reading the Aeneid (well, the first six books, anyway) all over again.
    (Your wretched spell checker has mangled ‘haec’. 🙁 )

96. James @93
    Was being dense. I now see what you and Gervase were getting at with the different persons thing. Obviative third person is not something I’ve come across. But it’s clutching at straws to use a (barely) viable sentence as a justification, one that cannot define in the absence of the other person being specified. I get your point on stopping looking when you’ve got an answer that accounts for all the bits; I suppose my objection is that your answer needs an extra bit, and you should’ve carried on.

97. Eileen@68, re JoFT@64, surely the correct translation of “et in Orcadia ego” is “I had lunch in the Orkneys”.

98. Cellomaniac @97

    🙂

Comments are closed.