Guardian 27,279 – Puck

65 comments on “Guardian 27,279 – Puck”

1. Thanks Andrew. Not my cup of tea this morning, so it will have to be the cricket at Edgbaston this afternoon for my cultural fix today. Apart from DIE FLEDERMAUS, I would never have got the other operas.

2. Thanks Puck and Andrew

   An odd one for me, as I started by really enjoying it, particularly admiring IDYLLIC, ERATO, ECONOMY – so neat I’m surprised I haven’t seen it before – and MACHINERY (when I see a road sign “Heavy plant crossing” I always think of triffids!).

   However as the general knowledge requirement grew I found myself enjoying it less. I just about knew most of it, but, despite being well-up in music, 8d was completely unknown to me and needed a wordsearch.

   I didn’t see the VERY part of ULTRA, and don’t think it adds anything worthwhile to the clue.

3. I love Puck’s puzzles and there are some fanstastic clues in this one; ELYSIUM FRINK and MACHINERY among them but Laban? Sheesh!
   I’m with K’sD at Edgbaston!
   Thanks to S&B and nice weekend to all

4. …actually I had to guess that LABAN was a choreographer; never heard of him!

5. Agree there were some great clues here – loved FRINK, AUTOPSY and ECONOMY especially.

   Nothing wrong with a bit of general knowledge either. No reason why crosswords can’t be educational.

6. Feeling much the same as Kathryn’s Dad. I was feeling cocky when I solved 1a and a few others at first read-through but the feeling soon evaporated. I didn’t know the other operas and was stumped by 25a and 19d. Definitely not my favourite Puck. Thanks anyway! And thanks to Andrew for the blog – I couldn’t have parsed 7 or 19.

7. I am a bit with you, Kathryn’s Dad@1, I am not an opera buff. I knew 1a DIE FLEDERMAUS too, but had to check the spelling before I entered it.

   [This puzzle from Puck will please many of our commentators though, as a facility for playing music or an appreciation of classical music are reputedly traits common to cryptic crossword solvers. We once had a Maths Coordinator in one of my schools who doubled as the Music Coordinator, and I recall someone telling me when I remarked on the – to me – unlikely pairing, that both areas of learning are very left brain (patterning, logic etc).]

   Never mind, through some use of online sources for the clues around the edges, I managed to solve the grid, while appreciating Puck’s cheeky and winsome ways throughout the whole experience.

   Some parsing was left hanging though, two examples were the QUEER schoolmaster from Dickens (23a), who might be tucked away somewhere in the literary appreciation section of my right brain, but who could not be retrieved immediately, and 25a ALABAMIAN (Laban being unfamiliar). So many thanks to Andrew for these, and for an interesting blog.

   Favourite was 3d F-RINK, for the play on Puck’s name; fortunately I knew of the sculptor (somehow), so when I spotted it, I knew I must be right!

   [Earlier this week, I made a comment (slightly grumpy) about needing General Knowledge for a solve and I have taken on board the responses to that post. While I do think we need some General Knowledge to solve cryptics, as Andrew has pointed out in his introduction, if the setter is as good as Puck, of course the wordplays can generally help even “bears of little brain” like me to work out the answers. As regards this puzzle, the anagrams at 1a and 226a were fairly clued, however without heaps of crossers (and some online checking to see if various guesses were right), I don’t think I would have solved the two operas at 8d and 9d. So I guess my personal jury – as a right brain intuitive solver – is still out regarding GK.] [For further examples – yes I know – no-one is interested in “yesterday’s papers” – but for those who were involved in yesterday’s solve, I had no idea about that my answer to the “Devon resort” clue might be accurate from the wordplay, nor that the answer to the clue for “feeble” could be linked to the theme.]

   Many thanks to Puck; it’s all fun and that’s what I’m here for.

8. Sorry to be so OTT with my contribution; I crossed against all @2-6, though some same themes emerging!

9. Laban is now perhaps better known, since Trinity College of Music, London was renamed Trinity Laban.

10. Julie @7
    How could you have got QUEER from the wordplay if you didn’t know Squeers? Definition only, I think!

11. Thanks, Andrew.

    I love Puck’s puzzles too and this was no exception.

    ‘More work’ always makes me smile and even more so this morning, because I sang in the chorus of ‘Utopia Limited’ at university. I have just seen in Wikipedia that GBS said in a review, ‘ “I enjoyed the score of Utopia more than that of any of the previous Savoy operas.” [I don’t think I’d go as far as that.]

    Lots of lovely clues, as always – I think my top favourite today was FRINK, which made me laugh.

    Many thanks, Puck – most enjoyable.

12. Like Eileen I love Puck’s puzzles, and although not an opera buff managed to finish it – just about (FIERSCHUTZ instead of FREISCHUTZ). Favourites were MAE WEST, ELYSIUM (wonderful clue!) and MACHINERY. Many thanks to Puck and Andrew.

13. This was very challenging. I gave up on solving 3d FRINK (never heard of the sculptor and know nothing about ice hockey), and needed some help to parse 2d, 8d, 10a, 7d.

    New words for me were CITAL, LAYETTE, LOG-JAMS, DER FREISCHUTZ and also nuts = mast / the fruit of beech, oak, chestnut, and other forest trees, especially as food for pigs.

    Thanks Puck and blogger

14. ‘Utopia Limited’ should be better known among the wonderful works of Gilbert and Sullivan than it is. WSG’s satire is at full throttle, and there are some memorable tunes from Sullivan. Perhaps faded slightly from their heyday, but still excellent: I saw it performed by the D’Oyly Carte Company many years ago, but would have been delighted to have seen Eileen’s school performance too ?.
    While I’m a big G & S fan, I am not keen on more serious opera, but I do love the Hunters’ Chorus from Die Freischutz (sorry, I can’t get the umlaut on my iPad), and, if anyone doesn’t know it and can find it on Youtube, I can recommend it, but, beware, it can become an earworm.

15. Sorry Eileen, my smily emoticon got translated into a question mark. Honestly, not a Freudian slip!

16. I had to do a bit of pressing the check this button – is that cheating? Good work out. Thanks Puck and blogger.

17. Enjoying all the comments on this forum thread.

    Yes Muffin@10, once I got QUASH for Scotch at 23d, it could only be QUEER at 23a as the definition for “strange”, but it was unparsed. Wishing my memory (for “Dikkens – that’s Dikkens with two Ks, the well-known Dutch author”) was a little sharper.

18. George Clements @14. To get umlaut on iPad, simply press and hold on the u then slide to pick ü from the options.

19. Laban is best known as the person who invented ballet notation.

    Julie in Oz: in medieval universities music (theory) was taught as part of the mathematics syllabus. Many of the setters I know are professionally involved in mathematics (often operational research)and very active as hobby musicians,either as performers or in running organisations championing neglected composers.

20. I enjoyed most of this. TESTIMONY, ECONOMY and MAE WEST all gave smiles. But there was a bit too much, for me obscure, GK. 9 down and 26 across only came through scanning through an A-Z of operas. I couldn’t get 8 down even through this device, Gilbert and Sullivan not being included in this guide to Classical Opera. Though not GK-required answers, 22 down and 21 across escaped me too.
    Some very satisfying clues with excellent surfaces and misleading cues. Failing to finish left me a bit unsatisfied in the end.

21. Thanks for the blog and the parsing on some of the clues.

    Interesting that “chine” can mean both a steep sided valley and its inverse, a ridge – with a different etymology for each meaning.

22. Hovis @18
    Thanks for the information. Much appreciated, especially as I shall now be able to spell my eldest daughter’s name correctly: she’s a Zoë.

23. I think this crossword can be solved without all the general knowledge, if you persist. You probably do need to know the operas, but I had never heard of Laban and Frink, and still finished, albeit slowly. I only remembered Squeers after biffing the answer, having been hung up on Thwackum.

24. Thanks both. Can I be the first pedant to complain that two of the “operas” are actually operettas?

25. Shirl @ 24: But when is an operetta not an opera?! Doesn’t it just mean a little opera?

26. I agree that this was a bit of an obstacle course but seeing 1 straightaway gave me confidence. Elysium, Idyllic and Utopia seemed to make a mini-sub theme.Having got some crossers,i sort of picked 8 but had no idea if it was correct or who dunnit-so a google there confirmed. As for 9, I kind of sussed Albert something to start and did a google on Albert opera and found it and it parsed but I’d only heard of stuff like Peter Grimes.

    As for 26, I thought it would be something I didnt know so I stuck the words in an anagrind scrambler-three times, one with x etc-then z got a result. Never heard of it and to make matters worse I wrote the “ei” as “ie” which left an “i” at the end of 19d.

    All in all, no complaints seeing all clues were fair and Friday shouldnt be a doddle. Rather an an enjoyable challenge which took longer than it should have,

    Many thanks to Andrew(had to be Mae West and I could see “ewe” but didnt know “mast”) and Puck.

    Sorry for boring post but wanted to share my MO.Puck is a cruel man, but fair!

27. Thanks to Puck and Andrew. I got the four operas-operettas (though UTOPIA LIMITED was new to me) and also FRINK without knowing the sculptor, but did not know CITAL (my LOI), PLANK as fool, and Laban in ALABAMIAN and could not parse COINAGE and ULTRA. The QUEER-Squeers connection brought back memories of Alun Armstrong’s wonderful performance (along with other roles) in the RSC version of Nicholas Nickleby (one of my top 5 experiences in the theatre in over 50 years of playgoing).

28. As so often JinA nails it for me and takes the trouble to write a full explanation. I’m happy with GK but believe the answers should be gettable from the other info in the clue. Whilst the nature of the answer and fodder we’re clear the solution we’re not derivable without the specific knowledge – especially as they weren’t in English.
    Apart from that the rest of the clues were excellent with FRINK my favourite as it could be solved without knowing the sculptor – who I hadn’t heard of.
    Very much a half and half puzzle for me -‘thank you Puck and Andrew.

29. Very enjoyable and educational. I hadn’t heard of ALBERT HERRING, which I solved from the wordplay, or CITAL, which I did not.

    There were many good clues to savour, from a consistently good setter. My favourites were 3d FRINK and 6d MACHINERY.

    Many thanks to Puck and Andrew.

30. This was very tough – two of the operas were unfamiliar (DER FREISCHUTZ and UTOPIA LIMITED) and there were quite a few obscure references, and I don’t think I could have finished it without the check button. A fine challenge for a Friday, all very clever (especially the anagram including the umlaut), but as a test I failed it.

    Thanks to Puck and Andrew

31. I was so pleased with myself for being the first to spot that this is a pangram – then so cross to realise on double checking that there is no V.

    Puck’s crosswords are so rewarding, but plenty of time has to be set aside when his name appears. I couldn’t get CITAL or ULTRA and was unable to parse several more until reading Andrew’s blog, at which point I thought COINAGE to be ultra clever. Really liked FRINK and MACHINERY as well. Despite not finishing I loved it.

    Thanks as always to Puck, and also to Andrew for elucidating.

32. Thanks both,

    8d was CoD for me, pace 9d.

33. Job @31, I was close to posting about a pangram too. However, my search for a Q lead me to QUEER / QUASH, so I’m not complaining.

    I’m another solver with decent opera knowledge, though I wasn’t sure I could spell FREISCHUTZ, nor whether 1a and 26a started with DIE or DER until the anagram was checked. The Wolf’s Glen scene in Freischutz is btw about the scariest thing I’ve ever seen in an opera house. Great clue for it too: Hitler infamously liked to appropriate music for his own ends, and this work was arguably the first great flowering of German romanticism in the opera house.

34. For once it sounds as if I was actually ahead of the crowd in getting Albert Herring so quickly. Sadly it’s only because I once spent hours that felt like days watching a production!

    Thanks to Andrew for explaining COINAGE. What does a “Rebus clue” mean please?

35. Obviously our operatic knowledge needs a little work. Never heard of 8,9 or 26! And Laban was also new to us (and to predictive text). Oh well, you live and learn.

36. More SK than GK I suggest.

37. Taken aback by ‘alabamian’ instead of ‘alabaman’, though evidently the former is actually commoner. No chance on the operas without Google, but fair enough, I suppose. Some lovely clues.

    I suppose a rebus is a wordplay like acoge which is more of a letter play than a wordplay.

38. In my earlier comment I meant to mention the repetition of the umlaut in the clue to 26a DER FREISCHÜTZ, as noted by Andrew in the blog. A nice touch indeed.

39. jaceris @36
    It’s not just the “operatic” knowledge. There’s also SQUEERS (as discussed before), STING as a songwriter (and those who have heard of him would have thought of “singer” before songwriter – though Dowland aficianados might question “singer”!) and FRINK.

40. I’m no opera buff but 1ac went in straight away. The others,er,didnt! I’d heard of ALBERT HERRING but not the other two. LOI was ALABAMIAN. I always fall for that “statesman” misdirection. Perhaps today has cured me of that but I wouldn’t bet on it. I liked QUEER- the cruel schoolmaster had to be Squeers. CITAL was new but quite gettable.
    Quite an entertaining solve albeit not a quick one!
    Thanks Puck.

41. Well said, jeceris.
    Since when is knowing a lesser work of G&S general knowledge. I think I’m pretty good on opera and got the other three relativelyl quickly.

42. When I first started to tackle cryptic crosswords I often felt they were mainly aimed at solvers some 20 years ( or in the case of The Times, 30 years ) older than myself, and rightly so . Now that I’m 65 I enjoy the feeling rather less !

43. It’s the old theme problem, is it not: too easy if you know it, too difficult if you don’t.

44. I don’t entirely agree, fanshaw @42 – I knew all the GK references except LABAN and UTOPIA LIMITED, but I still don’t think that they were fair clues.

    I love pub quizzes, and I think “Who was the cruel schoolmaster at Dotheboys Hall?” would be a good quiz question; however I don’t think that it’s appropriate in a cryptic crossword.

45. I usually enjoy Puck’s crosswords but this was disappointing. As others have commented the general / specialist knowledge required was too much & detracted from some clever cluing.

46. btw way although others have praised the clue for ELYSIUM (and I agree that it has a great surface), I can’t accept that “a little yogurt” for Y is great clueing.

47. muffin @46
    When setters find different ways of indicating something, in this case an initial letter, they tend to become standard after repeated use. ‘A little’ is by now a variation of ‘initially’, ‘primarily’, ‘at first’ and ‘start of’, albeit relatively infrequent. Like you, I’m not fond of it, and other ways were obviously possible, such as
    “Yogurt starter, muesli, nuts – heaven!”
    but I can’t fault Puck for the choice he made.

48. Best not to buy the Guardian on Fridays, as this seems to be the GK cryptic day. This dreadful crossword is right up there with that appalling offering from Imogen two Fridays ago. Another one not sent back by the crossword editor!

49. This was much worse than the Imogen crossword which was witty at times

50. @Simon/Redkev

    re the puzzle by Imogen, in the “interesting coincidence dept”, that puzzle also featured LABAN, as in Leah’s dad, as a grid entry.
    This is the whinge of a bad loser Puck, but today’s puzzle featuring LABAN in the wordplay is in my view a bit unfair, since the gentleman was called Rufolf von Laban and we don’t talk about Helsing being out to nobble vampires or Ursual Leyen being Germany’s Defence Minister.

51. Ursula, even

52. Thanks to Andrew for the blog, and to others for your comments.

    A bit of a Marmite puzzle it seems, but (as the saying goes) you can’t please all of the people all of the time.

    baerchen @ 50
    I think you’ll find that our Rudolf was commonly also known as just Rudolf Laban, and the dance centre(s) called after him only reference Laban, not von Laban. So I felt it was fair enough to refer to the shortened version myself.

53. @Puck
    Fair enough. My choreography knowledge stops at Flick Colby

54. This didn’t take too long, helped by knowing the operas and the sculptress, the clueing for the last raising a smile, but the reference to Sting passed me by.The only cruel schoolmaster I could remember by name was Mr Quelch, tormentor of Billy Bunter and vice versa, which enabled me to solve 23a though I could only half-parse it as a result. Overall an enjoyable test. Thanks to Puck and Andrew – some of the parsing was too difficult for me.

55. @baerchen
    I do have the advantage of personal acquaintance. Not with the man himself, but with the name. Back in the time when I did a lot of dancing, I applied for and got accepted on a Community Dance course at what was then called the Laban Centre for Movement and Dance in New Cross, London. I never took up the place, opting for Community Arts at what was then Manchester Poly instead.

56. Thanks to John Cox for his reply but I’m still slightly in th dark. Where does the description “Rebus” come from and why for a ‘letter play rather than word play’?

57. I did actually finish this but thought the puzzle needed a stronger editorial input.

    Does anyone else feel that the Guardian cryptic is slipping into anarchy. This week especially the puzzles have been “all over the place”.

    The lunatics are taking over the asylum. 😉

58. Sigh! I thought we’d seen the end of crosswords based on obscure classical works or long forgotten Eastern European composers. I am by no means uneducated, but this was impossible. When do we get a crossword based on the jazz guitar?

59. 48 & 49: At last someone has said what I feel.

    Puck@52, yes. It was clearly enjoyed by the daily contributors here.

60. Eric @56
    A rebus originally was a puzzle made up of pictures and letters from which you have to make words (H next to a picture of an ear leads to HEAR, for example). The game Dingbats uses the rebus or variations of it (CL written above LEAF leads to CLOVERLEAF, for example).
    It could be called both wordplay and letterplay.
    The clue to COINAGE is like a rebus but more devious – you don’t know what to do with ACOGE or what the cryptic device is. You have to work out or guess that ACOGE is CO IN AGE. This being a crossword clue, though, there is an indication of the answer as well, and that’s how I got it.

61. Alan B @ 47, for some of us it would have to be

    Yogurt’s starter

    I’m afraid. And for some others, even that would be non-satis as strictly, that’s Y- followed by the anagram.

    Just saying.

62. At the risk of sounding a dissenting note, I rather like the occasional GK-based cryptic. Remember that some of the best of Araucaria’s Bank Holiday specials were heavily reliant on GK. What I am less fond of, as per @Old Fakir’s sentiments earlier in this thread, are those which seem to require a 1950s public school education.

63. featherstonehaugh @61
    Re ELYSIUM: Yes, I know, but I tried. (I hoped I would get away with it.)

    JohnB @ 62
    I agree. I welcome a GK element in crosswords, including answers (or words that are part of answers) that I don’t know. I usually report positively on the ‘educational’ aspect of a crossword that I enjoy. What I dislike are ‘double obscurities’, where there are two GK (or what I call SK) elements in a single clue – in the answer and in the wordplay. Good setters avoid this, but some, either intentionally or negligently, allow a double obscurity to go through – without any compensation in the form of wit, for example.

64. Finished this! Yes! Had two brains on this – works a treat – and managed it in less than 24 hours as we started at 1700 yesterday. I was put off by all the opera stuff – I know none – but Steve persuaded me to have a go. First in – extremist – which was a bit of a pain as I had no idea why it was right. Liked “economy” “idyllic” & others – fell for the statesman misdirection too and had to look it up so LOI. I think our GK is not bad, but I’m not happy when I find an anagram I can’t solve as its in German (26 A) and it’s an opera I’ve never heard of. That goes for the Utopia one as well….. And I’m a non-musical mathematician – Julie in Australia – we are rare but do exist!

65. Oddly enough, some of the Trinity Laban students recently took part in the Blackheath Community Opera production of Der Freischütz in the Blackheath Halls in south-east London. Maybe Puck was aware of this.

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