Guardian Prize 27,382 by Paul

27 comments on “Guardian Prize 27,382 by Paul”

1. 13d: I took the anagram indicator to be ‘stuffed’ (in the sense of ‘ruined’).

2. Thanks to Paul and bridgesong. I got THATCHER early on but here in the US only Howe (as it turned out, only a part of a clue) was the only name that came to mind. The result was much resort to Google – and fortunately I knew STOW as a Cornish town from a previous puzzle. The answers developed slowly but the SE corner held me up for quite a while. I did track down NOTT-knot, but all I could come up with for 24d was “near” that clearly did not work. Finally, NIGH-knight appeared on the horizon so that THINGIES was my LOI (and emerged as my favorite when I finally spotted it). A research problem for me, but worth the effort.

3. This was a challenge for me, having been living in NZ and still at school during Thatcher’s time as PM. No wonder the penny never dropped. I somehow managed to solve all of 7’s men before solving THATCHER, which ended up being my LOI, so the theme was a mystery till the end!

4. Some of us wish we’d never heard of those people. What a chamber of horrors. I read “stuffed” as anagram indicator in 13d, too, as in: “they stuffed the unions”. Didn’t someone (maybe Thatcher herself?) once describe one of her cabinets as a “shower”? Mob was the right defining word for that.

   I guessed WALKER before I had the theme, but hadn’t actually heard of Thatcher’s, so it wasn’t much help. It was when I got LAWSON the game was up and I parsed THATCHER.

   Bridgesong, there were also two Carlisles, Kenneth and Mark, who served as ministers under Thatcher:

   https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ministers_under_Margaret_Thatcher.

   Carlisle was my LOI. I hadn’t heard of lisle, and used a wordfinder on crossers to get it in the end.

5. Btw, having got CARLISLE, I had to admire “exhausted machine”. I’m sure I’m not the only one who was looking to work M(achin)E into the answer. Turns out the border in question was the obvious one after all.

6. Like Tony @ 4 I got Walker first, but so many people must have men called ‘Walker’ – my first thought actually went to Dad’s Army, which didn’t get me very far – and then Lawson, at which point I saw what was going on and wasn’t too sure I even wanted to remember all that gang. In the end I couldn’t drag them all from the well-burried depths of memory and needed quite some help from Google. I ended up with a fairly empty SE corner, which turned out to have more than its share of the more manipulated of the theme answers – PARKIN, PRIORY (I liked that one), NOTT, and also had THINGIES – nicely clued, can’t complain, but trying to fit it with ‘next’ or ‘near’ for 24a proved hard (I sympathise, ACD @ 2).

   Not my favourite trip down memory lane, perhaps, but a nice piece of work, Paul, and all nicely explained, bridgesong. Thanks to both, and a Merry Christmas, one and all!

7. Yes, I suppose “stuffed” just about works as an anagram indicator in 13d, so I’ll amend the blog.

   Tony, thanks for pointing out the other Carlisles, both of whom I had overlooked (as, perhaps, did Paul).  I agree about “exhausted machine” as a synonym for car: I’m not sure that actually occurred to me when I solved the clue.

   And a Happy Christmas to all solvers and setters!

    

8. Thanks Paul (I think!) and bridgesong

   What a tedious theme – I almost preferred billionaires. WALKER was my way in too.

   I don’t know about whist, but RUBBER isn’t the “deciding game” in bridge – best of three games wins the rubber. I think the reference is loosely to other sports.

9. I found this straightforward, helped by my having worked in Whitehall in the Thatcher years, so for me these names are not ancient history. I served under Norman Fowler (and – although I had forgotten this- Kenneth Carlisle). At least 3 of those named would be unhappy about being described as ‘Thatcher’s men’ : PRIOR, WHITELAW and (to a lesser extent) WALKER were famous ‘wets’ who devoted much of their energies to moderating the excesses of Thatcherite zealotry.

   I had no political sympathy for any of them, but I wouldn’t agree with Tony @4 that they were a chamber of horrors. Compared with the present bunch of chancers and delusionists who have brought us the Brexit catastrophe they look like intellectual and moral giants.

   A very enjoyable puzzle – I am not one of those who objects to themes as making a puzzle too easy (or, if you don’t know it, too hard). All fair game to my mind. Thanks Paul and bridgesong.

10. Muffin: I wondered about rubber as well (as my pseudonym suggests, I am a (duplicate) bridge player) but the definition in Chambers is: “Formerly in bowls, now chiefly in bridge and whist, the winning of, or play for, the best of three games…”  So on that basis the definition seems fair to me.

11. Hi bridgesong

    “Three games”, so not “a deciding game” then?

12. ..by that I mean that when you are tied at one game each, you play a deciding game, not a deciding rubber.

13. As g larsen says at 9, “Thatcher’s man” is an odd clue for Peter Walker and Jim Prior, who were both big players in the pre-75 Tory party; seen as future leaders then; and very much as possible leaders in the 1980-81 period where the Thatcher government’s polling had tanked.

    Whitelaw was Thatcher’s man in a different sense to Tebbit. Not ideologically a Thatcherite, but valued by her in keeping things together.  Immortalised in the contemporary saying “every PM needs a Willy”.

    To my mind an unsatisfactory puzzle.  Themes can be fun, but this seemed randomly chosen and arbitrarily implemented.  Lacked the wit and charm of yesterday’s scorers.

    Also that “burn rubber” was a dud.  The fourth test match will be a rubber, only a dead one.  We have already lost the first three rubbers.

    All that said, “thingies” struck me as an absolute gem, and worth the admission money

14. Thanks, bridgesong.

    Not happy memories, certainly, though I think g larsen @10 has a point.

    LAWSON was my first one, which led to THATCHER – great clue! I challenged myself to complete the list without ‘cheating’ and managed it all the way to the last one in – NOTT: infuriating!

    I’d have loved it if Paul had used ‘vegetable’ instead of ‘7’s man’.  😉

15. If anyone else is having trouble finding the correct grid for Maskarade’s Christmas Special puzzle number 27388 I found it here: https://uploads.guim.co.uk/2017/12/20/gdn.lrv.171223.webA4.pdf 

    I appreciate that the two grids are identical but I, for one, would struggle to write two clues in each light!

     

16. Thanks to Paul for a fun crossword, and bridesong for the bloc. Enjoyable but not overly taxing having spotted the theme early. Last ones in 18d and 3d ( which actually are my favourites). Brought back some not so happy memories, and wondered if 3d was a cheeky allusion to the theme? Have a great Christmas all.

17. WALKER was my FOI as well and I also thought of Dads Army before wiggling the political theme. As politics is my pet subject, I didn’t have much trouble in identifying THATCHER’s men. They were all ministers rather than ideological schoolmates of hers.They were all responsible for dreadful policies that we are still paying for! Incidentally I did wonder if part of PICCALILLI referred to Peter of that ilk who was as unpleasant as the rest of them
    I enjoyed the puzzle though
    Thanks Paul.

18. Whoops for wiggling read twigging.

    Merry Christmas

19. KeithS & Peter Aspinall,

    Haha! Yes, Dad’s Army was my first thought when I got WALKER, too. So much more memorable.

    g larsen,
    Point taken about the “wets”, but as they were ministers, “Thatcher’s men” is still entirely accurate, surely?

    muffin,

    I did also wonder about RUBBER but, not being an active bridge-player, imagined the word could perhaps be used in that way, e.g. “This game is rubber”.

20. Seemed an odd theme for a Guardian setter to choose but was well handled by Paul.  I remember parsing THATCHER early on, so sorted the theme quite quickly.  Sorry bunch indeed.  The one who came to mind while I was solving was John Selwyn Gummer, who memorably fed his own daughter a potentially tainted hamburger during the BSE scare to make a political point.  Seemed to sum up the Tories nicely.

    No real hold-ups with the puzzle.  I liked PRIORY and THINGIES.  I thought Paul could have made more of the Foot/legend oldie to fit the theme.  Something like “Labour leader with English order of business essentially in Foot?”  I suppose this lacks a definition being only two bits of wordplay, so probably a no-no.

    I had no issue with BURN RUBBER.  Here in the States, the term “rubber match” is commonly used to mean a deciding game.

    Thanks, Paul and bridgesong.  I appreciate the extra effort to expand on some of the parsings.

21. I don’t see what’s unusual about choosing a set of politicians as the theme, even if their political leanings were a far cry from those of many Grauniad readers!

    Tony @19: re RUBBER – I seem to recall from my early bridge-playing years that we did refer to the deciding game, at game all, as the ‘rubber’ game.  But although I’ve taken up bridge again, I haven’t played rubber bridge for years.  It’s gone right out of fashion – when we’re not into duplicate we simply play to ‘chicago’ scoring which, to my mind, is a bit inferior to the time-honoured and much-revered rubber version.  Ah well!

    Phitonelly @20: John Gummer did indeed, famously, attempt to feed his 4-year-old daughter a burger during the BSE crisis, but she refused it.  Clearly someone with more sense than Daddy!  Both of them are still around: Cordelia the daughter now grown up of course, and with no ill effects.  It was about that time that Mrs FD and I went off beef – since then we have given up meat altogether.

    A fairly smooth ride from Paul, but I think we’ve got used to the idea that “Prize” does not equate to “Fiendish”. Perhaps folks don’t have as much time to spare at weekends, as they used to.  Anyway, an enjoyable solve – thanks to Paul and Bridgesong.

22. FirmlyDirac,

    Thanks for the reply on rubber. (Haven’t played bridge for about forty years, and never seriously). Looks like phitonelly has nailed Paul’s reference point. Since “burn rubber” is also American usage according to my source, a mention of America in the clue would have been nice, though “beneath Scottish water in America” would have been a bit odd, admittedly.

23. Greetings from across the pond! I don’t know if you get many American solvers on this blog, but I finally decided after going back and forth about whether I should comment here or not to say something. My name is Patrick Jon Berry(my screen name is cranberry), and I am originally from Jasper, Alabama. I don’t know what you folks think of Americans, especially Southerners(believe me, we take a lot of crap just from Northerners), but I’m probably the only Alabamian I know who loves doing these cryptic puzzles every week. I got into them in college, looking through first New York Magazine and the New York Times Magazine, and then the London Times, the European, and the Guardian. Lately my favorites(or should I spell it favourites here?)have been the Guardian Prize crossword, the Everyman(which I just solved but you should see the jumbo Christmas puzzle they put out this week!), and the Private Eye crossword. This week’s Prize puzzle by Paul was quite interesting. He’s one of my favorite setters, and it was actually very informative having to look up everyone under Margaret Thatcher back in the day. I’ve heard of her, but never her “men”. Took a lot of detective work as well as checking the intersecting letters from the other answers. But I do love cryptic crosswords. So much so that a few years ago I started making up my own. Good thing I also started contributing to an American puzzle blog, Joe Young’s Puzzleria! I also contribute to Blaine’s Blog. They discuss that week’s Sunday Puzzle, which can be heard every weekend on National Public Radio’s Weekend Edition Sunday. It features Will Shortz, the “Puzzlemaster”. He also edits the daily crosswords for the New York Times, which I also solve every day on my Kindle Fire. The winner of the Sunday Puzzle gets to play on-air with Will, and I’m happy to say I’ve won once and had two puzzle ideas used by them! Getting back to the Prize puzzle as well as this past week’s Private Eye puzzle, I enjoyed solving them both, not to mention the Private Eye Christmas jumbo, which has a little something to do with Paul’s Prize puzzle. Of course since y’all haven’t discussed that one yet, I promise not to give anything away here. But Paul makes a mean cryptic, IMHO! Keep up the good work, Paul! And the rest of y’all on this blog, keep up the good work too! And of course, Merry Christmas to all, and may you all have a happy and most joyous holiday season, and a prosperous new year! And as we say in Alabama, Roll Tide!

24. Welcome, Patrick to fifteen squared. You are by no means the only solver from the States who visits this blog: see for example comment number 20 above. But you may be the only one from Alabama!

25. Yes, it’s a known stereotype about my home state that all of us here are assumed to be rather slow or stupid, so you wouldn’t normally think any of us could know how to solve even one cryptic clue, let alone the entire puzzle. But I have loved almost any kind of word puzzle since I was a child. I used to solve the Sunday cryptograms in the Birmingham News. There were four of them each week, and I had to work up to getting all four, but I managed to do it almost every week. We also had a jumbo Sunday crossword, but I let my mom do it. They were themed puzzles, and sometimes the theme clues had some sort of wordplay. It was fun just reading the finished puzzle after Mom was done. But I rarely ever wrote anything down when I solved the cryptograms. Thought them through, then read them out loud at the kitchen table. Later I’d start making up my own, but I never knew where they were based if I ever wanted to send my ideas off to them. If there’s anyone else on this blog interested in a real mishmash of different and challenging puzzles like the cryptics you’re always discussing here, might I suggest GAMES Magazine. You name it, they do it: cryptic crosswords, regular crosswords, cryptolists, logic puzzles, practically any kind of puzzle you can think of, it’s in there. It is an American publication, but even if you’re British you’d still get a kick out of it, I know. I’ve had a subscription for years, and I’ve never once regretted it. Every issue has been worth it. There’s even a different Patrick Berry who submits puzzle ideas to them from time to time. He’s also submitted crossword ideas to the New York Times, so Will Shortz knows him too. In fact, when I won the Sunday Puzzle, Will told me the other Patrick is from Athens, Georgia. I never realized we were so close! Must be something in the water down here, I don’t know. I do know his middle initial is D, not J, so if we contributed to the same place, it wouldn’t be too confusing. Just add them in the bylines.

26. It occurs to me as Christmas breakfast digests here in NZ that the term WET BLANKET could also be part of the theme, given some of the above comments. While I remember the Thatcher years, the minor players (from my distance aspect) needed looking up. An interesting exercise.

    Christmas greetings to all of you from down here. And thanks for the crossword and blog.

27. Very very late to the party (after spending Christmas in The Netherlands).

    I would like to say, though, that – for a non-Brit like me – this crossword was undoable without Googling. Finding the theme wasn’t the problem, finding the various names (esp. Fowler, Nott, Tebbit and Parkin) was one bridge too far for someone who did not live in the UK in those days. I am very much interested in politics but for me the World didn’t turn around Mrs Thatcher & Her Boys.

    Easy puzzle for Brits, very unsatisfying for this crossword lover, I’m afraid.

     

     

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