Guardian Prize 27,441 / Paul

53 comments on “Guardian Prize 27,441 / Paul”

1. https://www.theguardian.com/crosswords/cryptic/22994#5-down I think this might be the Paul clue you mean for Man United, Eileen, from a year in which my age was in single digits! I’m afraid I can’t parse the clue, though.

   Thanks to Eileen for clearing quite a few clues up for me – I really should’ve got COPPER NITRATE, likewise CRACKPOT.

   And thanks to Paul, also.

2. Liked this although FORNICATRESS took me a while and so did EGG. The answer was obvious but I couldn’t see why. COPPER NITRATE was lovely and I smiled at DUPLICATE. The only worthwhile thing the DUP is doing is acting as an aid to crossword setters!
   Thanks Paul.

3. Very nice from Paul – knowing his ‘reputation’ I reckon we’ll have to forgive him the FORNICATRESS (rather a contrived word, eh?) as well as his PEE.  Didn’t we have TEEPEE (with the extra E) only a few days ago?

   I’m happy with your parsing of ARC Eileen.  Perhaps “Papist” rather than “Papal” would have been more accurate, but the former word can’t possibly be used in the Grauniad these days!  And I like WALLPAPER too – after all it comes in ‘rolls’ (fond memories of re-decorating sagas….).  But I had the wrong ‘Fats’ for a while there, DOMINO rather than WALLER – and was even wondering about “Minnesota Fats” (from The Hustler).  WALLER clicked eventually.

   My school chemistry lessons obviously went in a different direction than Paul’s or yours – the ‘blue substance’ available in abundance in our chem. labs was Copper Sulphate, not Nitrate, so I was trying to fit in SULFATE (the US spelling but now generally accepted).  I wonder how many others of my generation got caught out there?  No matter – that’s what cruciverbalising is about!

   Thanks Paul and Eileen.  Quite an achievement for me, getting in a comment on the Prize before Friday midnight!

4. Huge thanks, Meph!

   2003 – Wow, no wonder I couldn’t find it in the 15² archive!!

5. I enjoyed this very much. Many thanks to Paul, and to Eileen for blogging it with your customary enthusiasm for the art of the crossword. I also tried to make lexicon work in 1ac; and I agree with your reservations about wallpaper and arc.
   I gave 3 ticks to 18ac. I could see what “starts” probably meant but even with that and most if not all of the crossers, it took me an age to work out the solution. When the penny did eventually drop, it kept me chuckling for several hours. Technically, I think, the clue should have a question mark as it’s a definition by example (not all fornicatresses are adultresses!), but who cares about that?
   I also liked amigo, amongst others.

6. Meph @1 – if you mean the clue you linked to, it’s a straightforward cryptic def.  “Man united” meaning “Married man”.

7. Hi Laccaria  @3

   ” Quite an achievement for me, getting in a comment on the Prize before Friday midnight!” – you shouldn’t really have been able to: I messed up and my post appeared a bit early. I’m going to bed now. 😉

8. @Laccaria 6, Yes, thank you. It clicked eventually.

9. Thanks Eileen.  18A immediately reminded me of you, and your telling us some years ago of a most favourite clue of yours with answer ADULTERER.  I thought it was an Araucaria one, and consisted brilliantly only of “Man United playing away. ” Meph#1 however shows it was Paul’s in 2003.  Alberich also had it in 2011 (FT 13657) with the longer version: “Man United playing away later rued foul.” Whatever, this puzzle was delightful with a highlight for me being the 15D’ nanny who had not yet showed   The last five took most time: with 8,9, 19 interlocking, the ?a va sans dire was far from obvious.  But I couldn’t figure out MELODRAMA at all, and afterwards examined long lists of festivals in vain.

10. Thanks to Paul and Eileen. EGG was my LOI (I took a long time before catching on) and also late coming was MELODRAMA (until I finally looked up “mela” to parse it). BANG UP TO DATE was new to me. An enjoyable puzzle and, once again, easier for me than several earlier in the week.

11. The usual enjoyment I derive from Paul’s puzzle was again found here.
    Favouites were 21a ARC, which I saw as “A Roman Catholic” straight away (and for some reason three word answers often take me more time than longer solutions do) and 17d CRACKPOT. But COD for me had to go to the classic clue at 18a FORNICATRESS, that several others also seemed to like a lot. I only know “Dutch” as meaning “wife” from previous cryptics, but fortunately I remembered that on this occasion.
    Eileen, many thanks: I needed your help to fully parse 1a LOCATED (the OED part), 14a BANG UP TO DATE (the TOD part) and 7d ORAL EXAM (the RA part, although I am sure that has also been used in clues before). When I read your blogs I always appreciate the way you take us through the way the clue works like a patient and kindly teacher.
    Like Laccaria@3, I impetuously filled in COPPER SULFATE at 2d27a, but then had to revise my thinking when the solutions to 16d and 17d didn’t fit. At least I remembered something from Senior Chemistry, with top results in all my humanities subjects at graduation but only a pass mark in Chem.!

    With gratitude to Paul as ever (not for reminding me of my ordinariness at Chemistry, but for lots of smiles during my solve).

12. Yes, I had to look up TOSTADA=pancake too (it does). Needed the wordwizard for FORNICATRESS, but having got it, I like it – as I do all of the rest.

13. Thanks Paul and Eileen

    I wasn’t going to comment, but Eileen might be reassured that LEXICON was my FOI too!

14. Sorry, Eileen, you will be dismayed at what I wrote @11. I meant to say, “Eileen, when I read your blogs I always appreciate the way, like a patient and kindly teacher, you take us through the way the clue works.”!

15. It looks as though we all enjoyed and were perplexed by the same clues so I won’t repeat what’s already been said about FORNICATRESS and the nitrate/sulph(f)ate dilemma. Would just agree with Laccaria @3 about the parsing of ARC.

    Paul is always inventive and fun to solve and usually manages to raise a smile. GRANULATE was favourite as it fulfilled all these.

16. [btw sulFur etc. has been the IUPAC (International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry) recommended spelling for some time. Little chance of it catching on in Britain, however, where even New Scientist continues to use terms like “acetate” that have been technically incorrect for over 60 years.]

17. Another great puzzle from Paul, though I have to admit I too had trouble parsing out MELODRAMA and BANGUPTODATE(the latter being my LOI, with BANG being the tricky part). Didn’t understand the “Dutch” part in FORNICATRESS, but I had just enough Down clues to get it anyway. Got a chuckle out of the PEE(number one)part of TEPEE, and it may not have been the first time I’d ever seen the COPPERNITRATE joke, but I enjoyed it just the same. Didn’t really understand the DUP in DUPLICATE meaning “party”, so thanks Eileen for clarifying that. Still don’t really get DOMEAFAVOUR meaning “Help?” as well as “Never!”, but luckily I got enough Across clues to figure it out. As for THATGOESWITHOUTSAYING, I think I got that mainly from the number of letters in each word. But then again, maybe THAT could go without saying! And I pretty much got FRENCHALPS by looking up Chamonix, of course. You never cease to learn new things from doing these puzzles! Well played, Paul!

18. I always seem to enjoy Paul’s puzzles and this was a fine example..I couldn’t parse BANG UP TO DATE, so thanks for the explanation, Eileen. I did wonder about equivalencing Fornicatress and Dutch, which seemed to me to risk slandering either wives in general or possibly roughly half the population of the Netherlands. But clearly clued, and all good fun. Nice one, Paul.

19. Usually for a prize puzzle, after a week I have no memory of my solving experience but I do remember last week getting stuck on 18ac and resorting to a word search.  It came up with FORNICATRESS but I dismissed that as having nothing to do with the clue and gave up with three unsolved.  Well, it was late Saturday night by then.

20. I think I toyed around a bit with LEXICON at 1a, like some others.  But … 2d beginning with X?  Never!  There is, I believe, a chemical compound called “Xenon hexafluoride”.  Don’t think it has any colour…

21. Incidentally, there’s been for decades an oft-quoted ‘schoolboy howler’ on NITRATE.  Almost certainly apocryphal.  As far as I recall, it went:

    School chemistry exam:

    Q: Describe the properties of nitrates.

    A: I don’t know, but they’re cheaper than dayrates.

22. I find with some Paul puzzles (and this was one) that I enjoy them much less in the moment than I do when I come and read the blog. Clearly I’m in a minority but I find some clues tortuous when solving which means the aha moment is more of a “well, that’s just ridiculous” moment. The much praised 18a was one of those for me. Did anyone get it from the word play rather than by elimination from the crossers?
    However the appreciation everyone has for Paul always leads me to re-evaluate and decide it’s me be grumpy because I’ve been outwitted by him.
    Despite my reservations at the time we finished this in one session and were a bit disappointed not to have it come back to later in the day!
    Like Laccaria we dismissed LEXICON because of 2d beginning with X and LOCATED was my favourite.
    I’d echo JinA’s appreciation of Eileen’s blogs and thank all contributors for helping me see things differently, and Paul for providing the fodder for debate.

23. Thanks to Paul for another fun puzzle and of course Eileen for the blog. Really enjoyed this with lots of fun clues. Started off quite slowly but the whole thing gradually unpacked with time. Last one in for me was fornicatress, which is now one of my favourites along with do me a favour. I did get held up on copper nitrate because, with it being Paul, I was looking for some sort of innuendo. Thanks again Paul and Eileen.

24. @ Patrick J Berry

    I think the “Never!” bit of DO ME A FAVOUR is supposed to refer to the phrase you might say if someone tells you unbelievable information. As in, “It’s very warm today” / “Oh, do me a favour! The country’s covered in snow!”.

25. Thanks to Paul and Eileen

    I too originally thought “lexicon” for 1ac, though I was not confident enough to write it in and immediately saw the difficulty of a word starting with x (a pangram perhaps?). I was held up at the end by writing “Do us a favour”, but otherwise it was quite a gentle Saturday morning.

26. I thought a “lion” (in the “literary lion” sense perhaps) could be an EX-ICON.

27. Lots of fun here. I also nearly biffed LEXICON and thought the clue very clever once cracked. I had to do wordsearch for FORNICATRESS, but understood it then.”Number one” for PEE was pure Paul, of course.

    I’ve been reading John Halpern’s (Paul’s) book, The Centenary of the Crossword, and when he describes his all-out attempt to become a setter, he describes part of his strategy thus:

    “… I’d seen far too many public school references in crosswords for my liking […], and I wanted the doors flung open. How dare we keep all this fun to ourselves?

    “I resolved to bring in contemporary references. Let’s not be snobs — most people have heard of Justin Bieber [Laccaria probably not, actually].

    “And a light sprinkling of smut might be in order, and could appeal to a younger audience — I was, of course, a student at the time.”

    Seems to have worked out all right for him…

28. Tried to connect copper sulfate and ‘coppers up late’ before I saw the error of my chemistry

29. Tony@27…..

    “most people have heard of Justin Bieber [Laccaria probably not, actually].”

    Ha ha!  How shall I rise to that remark?  I suppose I ought to feel honoured – being singled out for gross misrepresentation in that way…. 🙂

    Indeed I have heard of the estimable Mr Bb – but probably for all the wrong reasons!  A quick glance over his Wiki page confirms my suspicions, and vague recollections of past news stories skimmed over: this guy seems to have spent more time getting into trouble, than in entertaining his fans.  Oh well, that’s his problem: not my concern.

    Seriously, there are many ways of rolling a GK requirement into a clue, good ways and bad ways.  If a clue is utterly impenetrable unless you have a thorough prior knowledge of the subject – e.g. a highly obscure cryptic def., then I’d call it a bad clue.  If the clue can be solved by parsing the wordplay, but then you have to look up the solution in order to link it to the definition – I’d call that acceptable as a clue.  Some solvers call it ‘cheating’ to resort to Wiki at any time, but I’m happy to do so – just so long as I don’t use it in a ‘trial and error’ fashion to find something fitting the crossers.  The difference is, I use Wiki after the pencil-in, just to confirm my assumption.

    Those who refuse to use Wiki at any time, have my respect, for making things harder for themselves!  But I’m not about to change my ways!

30. [Laccaria, I’m 100% with you on everything you say above about cluing. That’s why I apologised for requiring you to know “Girls Just Want to Have Fun”. Hard to imagine how you’ve avoided hearing that one, mind.]

31. Thanks to Paul for an enjoyable puzzle. It’s not very often that I can parse everything as well as solve.
    Thanks too to Eileen. If you’re still there I hope you got your plumbing sorted. Not the sort of weather for that sort of problem.

32. Muffin @16 I do not understand! The IUPAC term for acetate is acetate.
    Great crossword btw thanks Paul and Eileen.

33. S Panza @32

    No, it’s ethanoate

34. [Absolutely nothing to do with the solving, but I just want to congratulate our newspaper girl (weekdays) and boy (Sat) for delivering the papers against the odds. I was amazed that the newsagent had received them. Everything else was at a standstill.]

35. Pino @31 – if you’re still there – thanks for your kind concern: sorted now. 😉

36. Ah!  So Tony (@30) equals Whynot: I get it!  So, if Whynot is Whynot on BD, why not “Whynot” over here, Whynot? 🙂

    I hope you understand that when I said “gross misrepresentation” earlier, I was just having a bit of [Rookie Corner #203/18ac]!  I am perfectly aware that I have intentionally weakened my GK powers in certain fields by shutting out from my mind certain of my bêtes noires (pop music culture among them).  It helps to free up more space in that diminishing grey-matter of mine, for other things!

    And I’m sorry, I didn’t go back to BD to read your comprehensive answer to the comments on #203.  Explains a lot.  I might just add, if a clue is impenetrable without detailed GK, add a bit of wordplay please!  Don’t just leave it as a CD!  Perhaps you could have got in some reference to U[nited] N[ations]?

    Speaking for myself, regarding BD, I think it’s for me to offer a fulsome apology, for inflicting on the long-suffering BD afficionados, that horrible RECUSE [not go to church] = RECLUSE [poisonous spider] minus L (front “Leg”???).  Apologies all around for that one, I don’t know what was on my mind when I composed it – I assure folks I hadn’t been drinking nor was I on ‘substances’ (though they might have helped)!  I promise there won’t be anything quite so nasty in my next Rookie Corner offering (in the pipeline).  Though one of the clues involves a rather obscure word in the wordplay which some people may have to look up.

    Enough of that.  Shouldn’t really be offering spoilers for my own puzzles, however vague!

37. [To clarify mine @33, “acetate” is a “retained name ” (i.e. permitted), but isn’t systematic; the systematic name is “ethanoate”, as it directly tells you the number of carbon atoms.]

38. Ah!  Pedant’s corner, I see!  To my mind, the word “ethanoate” doesn’t give you a clue as to how many carbon atoms there are.  It merely provides you with a link to the word “ethane”, which, as every schoolboy/girl knows*, consists of two carbons and six hydrogens, namely C2H6.

    *Or maybe not….

    I suppose I was lucky that the IUPAC weren’t such active busybodies back in my days of doing ‘O’-level chemistry! 🙂

39. Unlucky, Laccaria! The IUPAC system is great. In principle if you know the structure you can work out the name; if you know the name you can work out the structure. You don’t need to remember “common names” and the structures they correspond to.

    The number of carbon atoms does follow the straight-chain alkanes (meth- eth- prop- but- and then the numerical nes from pent- onwards). This system was introduced in late 50s/early 60s.

40. [Laccaria,

    No setters were harmed in the making of your comment! I was Tony here quite a while before I was ever Whynot. I was Sphinx (for my Go puzzles) before Whynot (and before Steve Pemberton was Sphinx, too, but still some while after I was Tony here). Fyi, I’m TonyCollman on the Guardian blog.

    Your ability to shut out such as GJWTHF is admirable (enviable, even) but was beyond imagining for me when I wrote the clue. Obscurity in wp? I refer you to my 16a and comments thereupon. Not too late to change it. BD allowed me a change (20a) days before 203’s publication.

    Btw, the original clue for the key 1a was “Talking red setter?”, which I liked, but in the end I opted for
    the more complicated clue because it fit the theme so well.

    Did you try Paul’s Genius last month (225 blog out now)? Much more your sort of theme, I imagine.]

41. [Muffin,

    I’m pretty sure we were still calling alkanes paraffins when I did my A-level in the early 70’s! I guess school textbooks take a while to catch up.]

42. [Actually, it’s syllabus driven. I had to learn the new method in the mid seventies when teaching, as the (then) JMB board insisted on the IUPAC system. It was a great improvement, though!]

43. [Actually, thinking back, it was early 80s]

44. Tony/WN @40 – that’s interesting.  Yes I agree your 16a was a toughie!  I think I said so at the time.  I had to write it in from the crossers, the ‘sailors’ part was obvious but I had to look up the tax.  Having thought about it, I reckon that ‘gathering’ was just about OK as a definition – unlike Prolixix.

    On the other hand, if you’d used your original for 1a, I might have got it sooner.  I think your title ‘homage’ was a mild giveaway!

    In the meantime, good luck with your submissions to BD’s RC and I assume you have aspirations of promotion to NTSPP (as ‘Dill’ achieved a few days earlier).  Me too (not with much hope)!  On the other hand, I did get one accepted by Alberich last year. 🙂

45. [Laccaria,

    Thanks for your good wishes. I will look out for your next Rookie. Well done on getting one accepted by Alberich — not easy. Btw, I have another on 1across you may find is right up your cultural street, so to speak. It actually developed from one rejected by Alberich:

    http://www.1across.co.uk/forums/topic/a-puzzle-by-whynot/
    ]

46. Many thanks for that link, Tony@45 – I think I’d seen it before (possibly when BD posted it earlier) but hadn’t attempted it.  Finished it now 🙂 – excellent!  And 😀 😀 for the preamble!  I think I [half of 19a]-ged when I actually saw 19a and thought to myself “19a of the cods” indeed!!!  If I’ve got it right, the themers must be 10a, 23a, 5d, 13a, 24d, 17a (*groan*!), 21d and finally – as I said – 19a.

    Not quite up my ‘cultural street’ actually, I’m not much of an opera buff, but at least I knew all the (proper!) theme words, which obviously helped in the puzzle.  A shame that Alberich turned it down, seeing as it’s very much his department – but I assume it’s undergone fairly massive changes since you sent it to him.

    Now to retaliate (not just for you but also, anyone else interested) – one of mine, a fair toughie I think, also with a (wholly unnecessary) preamble which will help a bit and may amuse, though nothing like as ingenious as yours!  See here – if you dare!  [those who were on Boatman’s class last November may have already seen this, but I’ve re-worked some of the clues since].

     

47. [Laccaria,

    There’s a dowloadable full solution in a Word file on the page, just under the puzzle pdf. Unfortunately, it’s rather inconspicuous.It probably would have been better to comment over there too. I’ll have a look at your puzzle.]

48. Come on guys! There must be another forum where you can talk about other puzzles and stuff.

    As for this one, I had a few question marks all cleared up thank to Eileen.

49. Thanks for that, pex!

    There is: it’s called ‘General Discussion’, accessible at the top of the page, as Tony knows, as he’s used it quite a bit.

50. Sorry about that, Eileen. My fault for bating L with the Bieber remark. Otoh, the GD isn’t that useful for chitchat about crosswords that arises from particular points in the one blogged. Also, very few people seem to look at it much.

    On consideration, I appreciate what this does to your inbox, though, so I will try to restrain myself.

51. Thanks, Tony. Since three consecutive blogs were mine, my inbox was getting rather confusingly clogged and I couldn’t see how your conversation re Justin Bieber, from comment 29 onwards, had anything to do with the Paul puzzle on the blog – and I think it might have mystified a number of other commenters who are unaware of Big Dave’s blog. The advantage of transferring yourselves [easily done] to the GD page is that you can carry on a conversation for as long as you like and others can and do join in if they’re interested.

    Your comments on the blogs are always interesting – please keep them coming. 😉

52. [I have to admire Eileen, and Gaufrid, for their restraint; I might have been moved to tell certain commenter(s) to FO to BD! No names, but one may be clued as a homophone for “tuneless” – sadly no obvious way of linking name to “wiseacre”! I love it when new people, learners and/or lurkers, steal themselves to comment here. But I get somewhat irritated by the incessant drivel from those who think they are crossword experts when they clearly are not! By example, I agreed with Eileen re definition in WALLPAPER whereas A N Other thought it great, kindly explaining to us mere mortals that it comes in rolls. Who’d have known?!]
    Late to comment, but can’t stop myself mentioning an observation I scribbled on puzzle at time of solving. I wondered where else Paul might have made use of phrase “shrapnel wound” (11ac). How about
    “Literate sculptor makes can top from shrapnel wound (4,7)” perhaps, or even
    “Favourite setter makes can top from shrapnel wound (4,7)”
    though latter clue may be easier to solve?!

53. ….and thanks to Paul for (yet) another good puzzle. And to Eileen for her continued selflessness. Posting from my ‘phone limits number of characters (1,024) so no room for thanks previously. Only just remembered, thus tardy profession of gratitude.

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