Guardian 27,527 – Picaroon

62 comments on “Guardian 27,527 – Picaroon”

1. Whew, hard work for a plodder, but fun nonetheless. Forgot about the law N device, so a part biff for 22a, and felt dubious about lose=scrap in 16d.

   Thanks Picaroon and Andrew.

2. Yes, Andrew, like you, I took a while to get going. I had nothing after reading all the across clues up until 26a, and then somehow I intuited BE ALL FINGERS AND THUMBS from the definition and the letter count, which provided a handy way in to the puzzle.
   My only quibble was with the device in LAW N in 22a LAWN TENNIS, but I am turning into a boring old whinger over that useage, so have told myself to get over it, as all’s fair in love and crosswords.
   Thanks Andrew for a couple of parsings which eluded me, such as the Dave part of NEVADA 2d.
   14a MANICURISTS, 18a CHOLESTEROL, 8d MASSEUSE, 19d ON HAND and 24d FELT all contributed to making this puzzle a pleasure to solve.
   A big hand for Picaroon, a very clever setter!

3. [We crossed, grantinfreo, or I would have acknowledged your remark about LAW N.]

4. I too found this a challenge today with Mr H distracted by the Genius. Also not sure about lose/scrap but enjoyed the linked clues. Needed Andrew’s excellent blog to sort out some of the parsing but rememembered the fourteenth from last week’s discussion.
   Thanks, Picaroon.

5. Like Andrew I found this rather impenetrable at first, but got going with FILE and DIGITAL, so the theme was revealed. Favourites were LEDERHOSEN, MANICURISTS and ASYLUM. Many thanks to P & A.

6. PS I have heard of your past PM but only ever as David, not DAVE Cameron. Julie from the Colonies

7. Thanks PIcaroon and Andrew

   I didn’t enjoy this as much as I generally do with Picaroon. It was a “puzzle of three halves” – only CHOLESTEROL and EAR TRUMPET on first pass, then got DIGITAL and all the related ones fell very quickly, then a slow tidy up in the SE.

   I wondered about “lose” = SCRAP too. I suppose as in “We’ll scrap the plan” = “We’ll lose the plan”?

   TROLLEYBUS a good example of a type of clue I don’t like. Yes, it parses accurately, but it’s a “guess the answer, then try to parse” one.

   We discussed the LAW N type clue last week (ALE D), so that went in easily. CHOLESTEROL was my favourite.

8. Julie @6 – I think the diminutive Dave was used partly to show what a slippery character he is, despite appearing rather posh.

9. Cameron supposedly used to say “call me Dave”, in an effort to play down his perceived poshness – there’s an unauthorised biography of him with that title – though it seems dubious that he ever said it in that way: the nearest I can find is that he once said “Lots of people call me Dave” in a radio interview.

10. Like Andrew, I was lucky to guess 19d early on, which led me to the gateway answer at 26,1,10, but for me the rest did not follow all that smoothly. I was pleased to be able to complete this puzzle though!

    New word for me was SHAKO.

    Thanks Picaroon and Andrew

11. Struggled with this and didn’t have time to finish.

    Just came here to ask how daughters = D and not DD or DS

12. The usual good (mostly) stuff from Picaroon. I’m another unsure about scrap=lose, and I agree with pex that ‘daughter’ does not imply just a single ‘d’. Personally I don’t mind the LAW N device, but it’s in danger of being overused these days.

    Andrew, there’s a problem with your Wikipedia link for SHAKO: an extra apostrophe has crept in which means Wikipedia can’t find it.

13. Thanks, Andrew – I got in by the same door as you.

    It’s all been said by the Antipodeans and UK early birds but I just wanted to add my twopennorth of praise. My favourites were the same as JinA’s, + DIGITAL and LEDERHOSEN.

    Many thanks to Picaroon for a fun puzzle.

     

14. What Eileen said – now there’s a surprise!

    Many thanks to Picaroon for the early morning brain stretching and to Andrew

15. pex@11 asks how “daughters” can be just one d; I believe illipu’s suggestion on the crossword forum is correct – an apostrophe has gone astray (thus losing the setter’s intention to have “daughter’s” in genitive mode)

16. TerriBlislow @15

    I think “daughter’s” would be a contraction of “daughter is” or “daughter has” (past, not possessive).

17. Thanks Picaroon and Andrew.

    I enjoyed seeing our old friend Eli the priest in 12a. And the recent discussions here about the Ale D device really helped in getting 22a.

    Re lose/scrap: could this be as in telling someone to “lose that attitude”, ie to get rid of it?

18. Muffin@16

    I think the possessive apostrophe denotes an abbreviation of a now obsolete form of the genitive case – daughteres.

19. The “singular d” is used to abbreviate either “daughter” or “daughters” in Who’s Who (and no doubt elsewhere). Someone would be described as having (for example) “1s, 2d”.

20. Thanks for the pointers re daughters but I think TerriB @15 is the most plausible, ie an apostrophe has gone astray. Otherwise Picaroon could just as easily have said ‘daughter in drag…’

21. Thanks Picaroon and Andrew

    Another rxcellent puzzle from Picaroon.

    pex @ 20: sure, Picaroon could just as easily have said ‘daughter’, but the plural gives an added misdirection, and ‘daughter in drag come out’ would be criticised for the poor surface.

22. What Simon said. Rxcellent!

    (my taipan is much worse than his!)

23. I’m another who got in through 26, 1, 10. Got nothing on first read through. On second read through considered the solution, which then led to the solution to 27, thus confirming the supposition for 26, 1, 10, and leading fairly quickly to the linked clues, 17, for some reason taking the longest, in keeping with the way the solutions seemed to come to me from top to bottom. I think my favourite was 8, which I suppose also fits in with the 1, 10 “theme”.

24. “Be all fingers and thumbs” is an odd expression for “clumsy”, isn’t it? One would think that all one’s dexterousness is available in one’s fingers and thumbs. Does anyone know the history of the expression?

    “Be all thumbs” would be more likely to end in clumsiness 🙂

25. “Dexterity” rather than “dexterousness”?

26. muffin @24, it seems “Be all thumbs” was the original idiom.

27. Thanks to Picaroon and Andrew. My experience with this was like many above. I struggled to get started, but then got in by the same portal as others. However held myself up by entering “is all fingers and thumbs”. Hence rummiest and trolleybus last ones. I liked touching but many other good clues. That said needed to come here to clarify some parsing (e.g. 7d) and thanks again to Picaroon and Andrew.

28. Thanks Picaroon and Andrew.

    I got in through NATHANIEL, with a “phew”, which led to the enjoyable DIGITAL and onwards and upwards. No quibbles for me today – I liked the PDM of LAWN TENNIS in particular. But I agree with muffin@24 – “to be all fingers and thumbs” is presumably something of a malapropism for “to be all thumbs”; while both are familiar the latter better expresses the concept of awkwardness. Some long-inactive synapse makes me wonder if it comes from Hylda Baker? She had a great way of mangling the familiar.

29. Thank you Picaroon and Andrew.

    Quite hard gouing but enjoyable. DIGITAL was one of my first in, then NEVADA which seemed to confirm BE ALL FINGERS AND THUMBS.  The clue for RUMMIEST led me astray since I immediately thought of Mumm champagne, but 5a had to be DIAGRAM.  SHAKO followed which made me ‘hear’ my father singing this song

30. Andrew’s solution to the daughter question in 5d (1s, 2d) is the only one that makes grammatical sense.  The verb is plural, so you can’t say “daughter come out”. The possessive doesn’t work — try substituting a different possessive, such as “My in drag come out”.  “Daughter is in drag come out” doesn’t work.  “Daughter has in drag come out” likewise, though you might say “Daughter has come out in drag.”  So I’m with Andrew.

    My only word in on first read was ASHY, but I guessed that 25ff would be “Be all something and something.”  I thought of various body parts — knees?  knuckles?  arms and legs? — but none were the right length until the H of ASHY put in THUMBS and then FINGERS had to go with it.  Like others, I think of the expression as “Be all thumbs,” so the added fingers escaped me for a while.

    I liked DODGEM CAR.

31. I always appreciate coming back to this thread, which leads to a range of thoughts and explorations, such as Cookie’s Mumm Champagne, a link to a past generation through listening to the scratchy recording of the song “My Old Shako”, referencing a word in this crossword with which I was unfamiliar, various references to the saying regarding “All Fingers and Thumbs” (such an interesting saying explored in such a clever way by both Picaroon and various contributors), an interesting discussion involving daughters versus daughter’s, amusing posts such as the one referencing Copmus’ taipan, and lots more. I have been a bit turned off the forum of late due to some sense of feeling judged by the “relevance police”, but then I find myself won over again by the camaraderie of the exchanges and the general feeling of goodwill here.

    [Sorry I have now well and truly exceeded my allowable limit of the pronoun “I” in my comments.]

32. Another fine puzzle from Picaroon. Took a while to find an entry point but got the key from ON HAND and that made a lot more of it accessible. Plenty to enjoy as always.

    Thanks to Picaroon and Andrew

33. Thanks to Picaroon and Andrew. Tough going for me that resulted in a lot of guessing. I did make my way through but needed lots of help with the parsing – and claret = blood was new to me.

34. Many thanks picaroon for an excellent puzzle. I liked the fingers and thumbs bit, got 26a about half way through which is about right for this kind of tease. I liked Nevada and I thought manacurists a clever addition to the theme.

    Many thanks Andrew for explaining the lift and separate which I missed completely.

35. Finally managed to convince myself that RUMMIEST is a word, though I’m sure if I ever needed it I would use RUMMEST – most rum, rather than most rummy.

36. We got Hasadic, which threw the SE corner for a while. Then asylum sorted it. Otherwise good steady stuff. Thanks to everyone.

37. Like Trailman I didn’t recognise RUMMIEST as a word meaning ‘least usual’ and still don’tNever heard anything being called ‘rummy’.
    My use of the fingers and thumbs thing is ” my fingers are all thumbs”.
    Thanks to the setter for everything else and Andrew for the blog.

38. “Rummy” is a word that occurs quite frequently in the works of P G Wodehouse.  The Rummy Affair of Old Biffy is one of my favourite Jeeves and Wooster stories, set partly in the British Empire Exhibition of 1924.  (So you get a bit of history as well as entertainment.)  Highly recommended.

39. Rummy is a variant of rum for “strange, unusual, odd”. This page gives some examples of its use by P G Wodehouse, two of them in the narrative voice of Bertie Wooster. Of course both variants now sound very dated, though “rum” still makes frequent visits to Crosswordland.

40. Thanks Lord Jim and Andrew. Clearly, my Wodehouse is not up to scratch.

41. Very enjoyable puzzle, very enjoyable blog (“I wonder what happened to him. Nothing good, I hope” – hahaha), and very enjoyable comments above (including the discussions of FINGERS AND THUMBS, the Wodehouse, the Taipan (haha), and of course the Shako song posted by Cookie (” … fifty yeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAARRRS ago” — they don’t end ’em like that very much anymore!!)).

    SHAKO is a word long familiar to me from American crosswords (and War and Peace I suppose, but there were a lot of other words in that as well, so it wasn’t a particular standout), but it wasn’t until I listened to the song linked by Cookie that I learned that the proper pronunciation is shuh-KO, not SHAY-ko.  

    All part of what makes 15^2 so brilliant and fun.  Julie in Australia @31 – well said.  I too enjoy the camaraderie, the goodwill, the TILTs, and the occasional mirthful tangent relating to this weird pastime we all share (from points all around the globe).  [As for the occasional dyspeptic, snarky and overly serious remarks (and particularly ad hominem attacks) – I’m not a fan.]

    I loved the interrelated FINGERS AND THUMBS/DIGITAL clues today.  Many other fun clues as well.  CotD for me was PRICE LIST (“split bananas” was very clever).

    Many thanks to Picaroon and Andrew and the other commenters.

42. A pleasant manual puzzle, certainly not automatic.  I got the long one straight away, which was handy.  I did however forget to go back and fully parse it later.  SHAKO was new to me.  Strange word, interesting derivation.  Enjoyed RUMMIEST, LEDERHOSEN, NEVER and DIGITAL the most.  I struggled with the crossing pair DIAGRAM and MASSEUSE, which were last in as a result.  I also failed to parse HASIDIM, even though it now seems completely obvious.

    Thanks for clearing up the Daughters issue, Andrew.  I’m with Valentine in that it’s the only parse which works for cryptic and surface meanings alike.

    Always good to see Picaroon’s name over the puzzle.  Thanks to him and to Andrew.

43. Very clever puzzle but one I found extremely difficult. I did get DIGITAL early on and, while it should have helped it didn’t It was only after getting BE ALL FINGERS AND THUMBS that I got going and it wasn’t plain sailing even then. Still,the cleverness of the puzzle made it worthwhile once I finally got there. Didn’t parse NEVER though.
    ACD@33 Claret= blood was immortalized by Nervous Norvus on his song “Transfusion” with the line ” Bang the claret in me Barrett”
    Thanks Picaroon.

44. Peter Apinwall @43,

    Nervous Norvus – Thanks, that was great!!  Just listened to it – I don’t recall ever hearing it before.  It’s here if anyone else is (still on this thread and) interested.

45. Those interested in the recent debate that was held about the extent to which this site should be about crossword or the people who do the crossword can find it here. I thought we had agreed renewed mutual respect for Site Policies – more sticking to the subject (no matter how much fun it might be to do otherwise) and less moaning about people not sticking to the subject.

46. Van Winkle @45

    Reading through the blog and the comments above, it seems to me that commenters *did* stick to the subject, yet also had fun doing so.  A win for all.

47. As is often the case with this setter, a curate’s egg. Too many inelegant surfaces and tortured parsings. Still, de gustibus and all that.

48. We made steady progress on a train journey to Southall (I could digress but I’ll refrain) and finished the last two on the return. TROLLEYBUS was the loi because like PetHay I didn’t have BE, but I had I’M rather than IS. As usual there was plenty to enjoy in the puzzle and then a second helping of fun in the blog. Thanks to setter, blogger and contributors.

49. The usual quality puzzle from Picaroon (and so I totally disagree with MartinD @47).

    As to D = ‘daughters’, many years ago I asked Neo/Tees why he used it in, I think it was, an FT crossword.

    Just like others today, I told him that I couldn’t find it in any dictionary unlike S = ‘sons’.

    If I remember well he replied that it was on The Times list of abbreviations (yes, as a plural)!

    Although I don’t think Picaroon’s affiliated to that newspaper, it might be a reason why (adding to what Andrew said @19).

    Did I say Andrew? Thanks (for the blog)!!

50. I thought this was a super puzzle, with a well-incorporated theme. There was a choice of entry points to the theme, and mine happened to be MANICURISTS – others reported different themewords that got them started. I had several favourite clues, albeit none that haven’t been mentioned here already.
    I didn’t much like LAW N for ‘fourteenth rule’ (or ALE D for ‘fourth beer’ the other day), and I wonder for how long this fad will last. (Having had my say, I’m expecting another commenter to say that 22a LAWN TENNIS was ‘neatly clued’.)
    I’d like to echo what JinA said @31 and would add that the kind of spontaneous exchanges I see on these pages are what make this site so appealing and broadening – and especially the Guardian pages. Well done those who make this place like it is.
    Many thanks to Picaroon and Andrew.

51. I love Picaroon’s puzzles and thought this was excellent. Feeling Went in (for me) very quickly – any time I’m able to comment on the blog on the day counts as good going! Certainly much quicker than last week’s Picaroon.

    Unlike others my way in was 14a (tried IST and backed into the rest)

    Didn’t know 7 and 28 but got them after briefly toying with rumTiest and hasAdim. 4 also a new one for me

    Thanks to setter and blogger

52. Alan B – we crossed – so I wasn’t the only one with MANICURISTS as the entry point then!

53. Sil van den Hoek @49, the COED gives ‘d’ for daughter and ‘s’ for son, I nearly threw my Collins 1984 dictionary in the bin because it did not !

     

54. Van Winkle 045, if you are referring to my link to the song  “My Old Shako”, it was to joggle people’s memories who thought they had not heard of the word before.

55. 28ac  HASIDIM.  Is hasidim not the plural form?  Sects?

56. Cookie @54. Not particularly. More a general comment that we had a debate, different views were expressed as to the extent to which off-topic comments enhanced or detracted from discussion of the crossword and a truce was agreed, but not everyone seems to be aware of this. Still worried that a proper debate is no longer possible on the Guardian pages. For instance, WhiteKing and Alan B had an interesting discussion recently about why one clue had commonly been LOI despite it being far from fiendish, but it was difficult to follow or be inspired to join in because it had to be weaved in amongst many more tenuous contributions.

57. I give up — would somebody explain taipan?

    Anna@55 HASIDIM are the people and the sect (only one sect) they belong to.

58. Cookie @53, I know, but what I meant to say was this.

    D for ‘daughter’ and S for ‘son’ are well-known abbreviations.

    S for ‘sons’ [plural] can also be found in a dictionary i.e. in Chambers [only].

    So, it is a bit odd that they don’t give D for ‘daughters’, isn’t it?

    However, it does crop up in crosswords every now and then, so it must come from somewhere.

     

59. Very enjoyable, as is every Picaroon puzzle in my experience. Got in to the theme from the def and enumeration in the long one. Got stuck with 17d and 21a to go, but then used Collins’ thesaurus searching on concerning (no entry for concerned with) and managed to finish despite not quite understanding the wordplay in 22a (thanks, Andrew).

    I only first met the ‘thing X’ device recently*, but after a double use in a recent Paul Prize, it shouldn’t have taken me so long to understand why LAWN TENNIS was indeed the right answer.

    I also wondered about ‘lose’ and ‘daughters’, but I’m satisfied now that it’s d=daughters.

    * in the excellent puzzle SH by Trigon on the 1across website.

60. Btw, @Dutch, hope you spelt MANICURISTS right when you entered it in the grid!

61. Van Winkle @56, but if only a few people had commented, Whiteking and Alan B would not have noticed that one particular clue had commonly been LOI …

62. Sil @58, I think Andrew’s post @19 covers this

    The “singular d” is used to abbreviate either “daughter” or “daughters” in Who’s Who (and no doubt elsewhere). Someone would be described as having (for example) “1s, 2d”.

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