Guardian 27,814 / Paul

58 comments on “Guardian 27,814 / Paul”

1. 7d. Order to graze – now eat. With ending in fields (s) inserted.

   Agree. Didn’t enjoy this much. Thanks for the blog

2. Many thanks,=, Geoff – I actually got all that but just couldn’t fit it together!

3. I think his last few contributions, in particular this one, have knocked Paul off my favourite compilers list. I am a mathematician, but still found this hard to fill in; GALOIS must be almost unknown to most solvers, I would think, yet the clue for him was hard, as was the one for PASCAL. I struggled with most of the crossword, and lost interest with the last few clues (BRANCHLESS, NO SWEAT), resorting to aids to complete.

    

   Thanks Eileen and Paul

4. Pleased to see that my thoughts on this one coincide with Eileen’s prologue – thanks to her and Paul

5. I usually don’t manage to finish a Paul puzzle nowadays – I find him one of the hardest setters – but managed this one. NW corner was tough, but got the theme fairly early on, which helped. Liked GLITTERATI. Thanks to Eileen and Paul.

6. Perfectly fine fare for me, but then I never have any great ambition to finish a puzzle, am reluctant to fill in any answers that have been parsed and only care for surfaces if they are particularly poetic.  Agree though that 4a would have worked a lot better with 1008.

7. I was going to 26a commenting today but I have to say how well and completely Eileen has encapsulated my thoughts on this.

   Once I realised there were 8s I was convinced I would get them all but as David E says, I had never heard of GALOIS. I also thought it was LO(P) and didn’t know where the I came from.

8. I too found much of this a slog. I was/am also a mathematician but that doesn’t mean that the names of historic mathematicians are front of mind. (Although I suppose all except Galois have lent their names to commonly used terms in modern mathematics.) Like DE@3, Paul is slipping down my list of favourite compilers recently. However, I did enjoy solving BRANCHLESS and NO SWEAT. But I was hitting the Check button regularly on some of the others.

   Thanks as always to Eileen and to Paul.

9. Ions are cations or anions-positive and negative.

   Thanks Eileen.

10. Another one here with a mathematical/scientific background and consider myself well versed in famous and obscure names, so I knew all the folk mentioned, but I still didn’t like many of the clues. This was, I felt, a classic example of a theme ruining a puzzle with so much levered into place, so many weak definitions and synonyms that I felt, like Eileen, no pleasure in solving many of the clues at all. I was, essentially, piecing answers together plausibly but an answer should be clear and definitive. When you have solvers saying “I guess it must be this” then I fear you’ve gone too far off-piste.

    Thank you Eileen for parsing Fermat and 8dn – I had no idea where the answer came from in the clue apart from the “ia” bit! I too read “no sweat” as Geoff Soul @1 did, though was unconvinced (“now” as an order? hmm.) I did like “Newton”, however, and when I saw it as “further one hundred and eight” it made perfect sense, though further for “new” was weak.

    Thanks Paul for the theme, and a further attack on the “other culture” but not to my taste this one.

11. copmus @9 I was going to mention that and forgot to thank you for pointing it out – the synonym is simply wrong as “ion” is not “something positive” but “something charged”. It could be “something positive perhaps” as then we know it is an example not a definition.

12. A slog today, with much checking. Schiller in early and honestly, followed by glitterati and tradename, but then nowt. Parsed 7d, neat, but 27a. Really?

    Usually Paul so good, but not tonight. Thanks Eileen for opening it up.

13. Eileen and almost every commenter has said it for me. To be fair to Paul I guess when you are as a prolific a setter as he is then there are bound to be off days and as it’s only a crossword puzzle it doesn’t really matter. Thanks to him, Eileen and everyone.

14. Almost reached the point where I don’t bother with puzzles with Paul’s name at the top, and this offering didn’t improve matters.

    Strained definitions, awkward constructions, clunky surfaces, combined with obscure names meant for an unsatisfying solve today.

    Why is ION something positive.  Has the setter never heard of -ve ions?

    Loads of other gripes but I won’t labour it.

    Used to enjoy your puzzles, John.

    Nice week, all.

15. Thanks Eileen. I didn’t mind newton = new 100 and eight, Surfaces, as you say, are from Brummie’s art of the crossword school.

    KlColin@8 – Galois field theory is fundamental to cryptography. Galois was an extraordinarily bright and opinionated young man who managed to get himself killed in a duel at the age of 21, to mankind’s loss.

16. I guessed 8d when I had a few crossers, and parsed it as Eileen says. I needed to google a list of famous mathematicians to complete this puzzle.

    I could not parse 25/9 or 7d.

    andysmith@15 I like your parsing of NEW + TON = 100 / 8 is mathematician. I had parsed it strangely as further = NEW + 10 = X (hom. of ex) / 8 is mathematician. So, Isaac Newton is an ex(dead) mathematician!

    Thanks Eileen and Paul

17. My interest in maths having never gone beyond acquiring a requisite GCSE in the blasted subject, my eyes glazed over once again when – like Eileen – I was led by Descartes to the dawning of the theme. Had never heard of Fermat or Galois, and no doubt will have forgeten them by dusk. Even the playful triolet couldn’t quite ease the gloom. But, hey, thanks Paul…you’re still fab.

18. Despite finding this extremely difficult, I also found it very enjoyable, mainly through discovering the theme and then pursuing it. I think Paul is probably too deep to bother with surfaces.

19. Eileen — I too went from DESCARTES to PASCAL (at which point I thought 8s were going to be philosophers, or perhaps French philosophers) to MATHEMATICIAN.  I also tried to work LO(p) into whatisname at 22a.

    Last night I had all of the left hand side except COLD SORE and SUIT CASE, and none of the right except STATUETTE.

    Thanks for the parsing of COLD SORE and FERMAT — completely baffled me.

    I dunno about “something positive” for ION.  They’re just as often negative — in fact any time there’s a positive one there’s a negative one too.

20. I found this very hard; with a list of mathematicians and a trusty computer I eventually ‘solved’ it.

    I don’t think ‘describing’ needs to do double-duty in 8 – with Eileen’s help I would parse this as ‘Describing this puzzle’ = THEMATIC/IA [one across] in person [MAN]. That might give ‘one across in person’ doing double-duty, although I guess it’s supposed to be a part semi-&lit, whatever that means.

    It was a nice idea to use mathematicians as a theme and they were all fairly well known except for GALOIS – didn’t he have something to do with cigarettes?

    I liked STATUETTE, thanks Paul and Eileen.

21. I agree with all the unenthusiastic comments above.  (The comment mentioning “Red Rum / murder” reminds me of the film “The Shining”, which makes use of this – a voice screaming “Red rum, red rum!”.)

22. Thanks to Paul for a very tough puzzle and Eileen for a sterling job in blogging it. Eileen and a number of other contributors have said it all for me also. Knowing little about mathematics (particularly “famous” ones) this was a struggle from beginning to end. Fortunately like others Descartes (more through his philosophy rather than mathematics) was my way in. However got there in the end with last ones branchless, no sweat, Fermat and Galois. However, as ever enjoyed the challenge (some days the theme suits me and not others) and did like cold sore and red rum. Thanks again to Paul and Eileen.

23. The lack of love for this crossword leaves me wondering if everyone is grumpy to be back at work after a long weekend!

    I for one enjoyed it with the wonderful &lit of 8d, and overall theme. Plus 4a and 7d reminding me that paul is a true disciple of araucaria.

24. I think that the professionals would wince at Newton being described as a mathematician – he was a physicist, using algebra (and inventing calculus, but only as a personal working aid, couldn’t justify it and worried about being mocked – used calculus to derive the answer then classical methods to verify) to explain phenomena on the basis of simple rules. Physicists and engineers are to mathematicians are as per se advocates to professional lawyers – if it’s a reasonable argument it will do for now… but mathematicians want it precise. BTW I am a physicist/engineer.

25. Oddly enough, a parsed FERMAT was in fairly early, but I still took a while to twig to 8d, for which I parsed ‘person’ as being both def. and part of the wordplay. The best known of the lot, NEWTON, was my last in with the cunning ‘108’.

    I must say I liked this, even if it was a bit of a struggle at times. It was fascinating to read about GALOIS, whom I’d never heard of, including his unfortunate end and to have to think of other ‘mathematicians I have known’ from distant schooldays. No Euler though – he seems to have been the favoured cryptic crossword mathematician over the past few years.

    Of the non-theme clues I liked the ‘Problem faced’ for COLD SORE and the BRANCHLESS def.

    Was RED RUM a chestnut? If he wasn’t, he is now. (Sorry, you’ve probably heard that one before).

    Thanks to Paul and to Eileen

26. Thanks Paul and Eileen

    Too many “solved” but unparsed for me to enjoy the puzzle. I got the theme early with PASCAL 2nd or 3rd in. I too hadn’t heard of GALOIS, and agree that an obscure answer should have an easier clue.

    Raised eyebrows at “something positive” for ION here too.

27. Back in the day, and I’m talking decades here and not just the Guardian, themes and even individual clues that required a bit of specialized knowledge seemed to be exclusively lodged in the Arts and Humanities. Then it broadened out to include Entertainment and areas for hobbyists and enthusiasts. Now STEM is in the spotlight; I don’t really think it’s fair to grumble.

    My major peeve here was with equating ION with something positive, as William called out. It’s a bit like saying something red is a ball, because you know some balls are red.

28. I agree with Spica and WordPlodder. I found this enjoyable, probably helped by having heard of all the 8ds. Possibly also showing which of the two cultures I inhabit, I had never heard of 19d, but it had to be that from the wordplay.
    I do agree that a “perhaps” might have been better in the clue for 1d, but it was perfectly gettable from the definition.
    Many thanks to Paul & Eileen.

29. andysmith @24

    He did write the Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica. He was also Lucasian Professor of Mathematics at the University of Cambridge. I think that at least qualifies him as a mathematician for the purposes of a crossword puzzle.

30. I was familiar with all of the themers, pretty much a usual suspects list apart from GALOIS, who will be familiar to anyone who did algebra at university and would probably have become much more famous had he lived longer. To be honest the puzzle was too much like hard work to be fun, and I didn’t like the usage of ion, which could just as easily be negative. No doubt he’ll have more for us on Saturday…

    Thanks to Paul and Eileen

31. Thanks Paul and Eileen.

    I really enjoyed this one but I suppose having a mathematical background helped however I can see that for others some of the names would be problematic.

32. Count me among the mathematicians who found this to be less than satisfying. Lots of enjoyment early when I recognized the theme and filled in all the 8s, but then too many clunky surfaces and loose definitions, and I failed on several. To be fair to Paul, there were several very good clues, 17a and 24a in particular.

    Thanks to Paul and Eileen.

33. I really used to look forward to Paul’s puzzles because his wit was so reminiscent of Araucaria/Cinephile but of late, in common with most commenters, I have become disillusioned. His work now seems to have swerved away from wit toward pedantry.

34. Paul is not one of my absolute favourite setters, but he’s pretty damn good and he is capable of pitching a puzzle at different levels and in different styles which may not always suit everyone.

35. It’s kind of interesting that the subtext in the comments today is that you have to be a mathematician to do well in puzzles featuring mathematicians, but it is never suggested that you have to be a musician or artist to do well when the theme is of composers or painters. Mathematicians clearly need better PR.

36. Thanks to Eileen and Paul

    Some of this was brilliant. I parsed 8d as:

    THEMATIC 1A in MAN, to give the entry, and also as:

    PASCAL IN PERSON alluding to  MATHEMATICIAN

    I don’t know what clue type that makes it – &lit and a half perhaps, but it’s one of the best of its kind I’ve seen.

    The picture conjured in 24a of a fuzzy black and white photo of a distant galaxy is perfect. Many others were more than o.k. but one or felt unfinished.

    Prosecutor’s case about three of those charged is found……Utterly flimsy

    Those by 8s from this and me?

    I still enjoyed this, but does the time spent developing the theme limit that available for honing clues?

37. Mathematicians? With respect how can any qualified mathematician never have heard of Group Theory, a discovery of Galois? As to Fermat, amongst other reasons for having heard of him is that an Englishman, Andrew Wiles, holds a Fields Medal for cracking Fermat’s last theorem.

38. Thanks both,

    I found this hard until I got the theme, then the 8ds fell into place. It was a bit of a tease not to have some of the usual suspects. LOI was 10, which held me up because of the complication of the surface – so a good clue. Double ticks also for 24a and 16d.

    Like someone further up, I found myself thinking that the two cultures double standard was in operation in many of the comments, where famous mathematicians are deemed recondite and ‘triolet’ mainstream.

39. I have a maths degree but would never claim to “Be a mathematician”. Someone once said that the world never contains more than 30 mathematicians and they are all under 30. Still it was nice to be reminded of a few of the greats. I began badly by putting MACHIAVELLIAN in as 8 down but soon corrected that and it was plain sailing thereafter except that the clumsy wording for 25 ac, COLD SORE ” Problem faced boarding middle, getting on back of bus”, meant I couldn’t parse it completely. Still I can’t understand all the whinges- must be maths phobia.

40. This one screamed at me “PRIZE PUZZLE”. I think it would have been much more favorably received had it been so. 8 could then have been indicated as undefined in Special Instructions.
    I too struggled and cheated the last few due to time constraints. Liked ALBUMEN, NO SWEAT and BRANCHLESS.
    Thanks, Paul and Eileen.

41. Needed Gauss and Euler to be a true mathematician’s puzzle. i had heard of Galois as mentioned in the title of a famous talk by Andrew Wiles where he proved Fermat’s Last Theorem [of no solutions to x^n + y^n = z^n where n > 2, at that time the most famous unsolved mathematical problem.

42. I agree with most of the negative comments above: a real slog, no fun and lots of clunky surfaces. Oddly, GALOIS was my way into the theme. Thanks to Eileen and – following convention here – to Paul.

43. Enjoyed this. Fermat lead the way in. After that it was plain sailing. We must give Paul credit for being brave enough to set a crossword on this theme which was bound to attract criticism.

44. I’ve been out for most of the day and had decided not to comment further on this puzzle but there’s been some interesting – and rather surprising – discussion.

    Regular readers will know that, because of my educational background, I’m in the Humanities ‘camp’ – if that’s what it is – but I don’t think I’ve ever complained about a puzzle [purely] because it was science / technology based. The interesting thing about the comments today is that several of those saying that at least one of the the answers was obscure are from mathematicians, while I, on the other hand, had to check TRIOLET 😉 . As I said in my blog of the Picaroon puzzle, which I mentioned this morning, referring to The Two Cultures, I thought that the Classics / Bible / Shakespeare bias had shifted in recent years. Certainly, I’ve learned a lot more about science from crosswords.

    I said in the preamble above that my lack of enjoyment of this puzzle was not due to the theme – I managed to work out the answers from the clues and was able to check them [and there was an ancient Greek, again, to keep me happy]. Several others have said that this was by no means Paul at his best, for reasons given above. Several years ago, he used to be one of my top favourites, too, but I’ve been intimating for some time now that I think we see rather too much of him [pace WhiteKing @13 – I don’t think that’s an excuse]. I admit to having a bit of an axe to grind here, with Paul’s seemingly inevitable fortnightly Prize appearances coinciding with my monthly blogs, with weekly puzzles sometimes intervening for me, too. I think every one of the Guardian’s other setters could produce a worthy Prize puzzle and several of them have not had one chance. Paul is still producing excellent, enjoyable puzzles but I find others are run-of-the-mill or downright disappointing, as today, so that we never really know what to expect – and I’m really relieved, having rather stuck my neck out this morning, to find that I’m not entirely alone.

    Many thanks to everyone for your comments.

45. I agree with Eileen’s final paragraph just above this (providing someone doesn’t comment in between)- I think the final comment about excellent puzzles/disappointing puzzles rings true with our setter’s puzzles in other places too

46. Eileen I could not agree more! Well said!

47. Allow me to be the voice of dissension in saying that I thoroughly enjoyed this one. I agree Paul’s surfaces may leave something to be desired, but he’s always been one of my favourite setters. There’s usually at least one or two parsings that bring a smile to my face because of their kookiness (for example NO SWEAT) along with definitions that you would never find in any dictionary but make sense once you figure them out (BRANCHLESS and COLD SORE, if the latter is a tad skewed). I always know I’m in for an outside-the-box treat when I see Paul’s name at the top of a puzzle and today was no exception. I’d rather have that than run-of-the-mill straightforward dryness day after day, not that any of the other setters are guilty of doing that, because I enjoy them as well. It’s just that Paul usually gives me something extra to chew on. The mathematician theme was a bonus for me, and I have heard of all of them, as every one of them has made huge contributions to the field. Some like DESCARTES and PASCAL were write-ins, but others like GALOIS and FERMAT required some thought. So, all-in-all a mixed bag of ego-stroking easiness and satisfyingly difficult solving for me!

48. Eileen @ 44 I absolutely agree.

    I think that Paul in his various guises spreads himself so wide that attention to quality and detail suffer, with a lot more of what I started to call “that’ll do” clues [let alone surfaces] appearing. I understand that (I believe) setting puzzles is how he chooses to make his living, but I do think he is losing fans in the process.

    Perhaps the publishers should pay more…

49. We actually could not disagree more.

    We thought this to be a very satisfying crossword. True, both of us are mathematicians and we knew all of the great minds ones mentioned but that’s only half the story.

    For us, there’s always (at least when he’s Paul, less so when he’s Mudd or Punk) something that tickles the cryptic mind. E ven when he is Mara in The Times’ Quick Cryptic.  We had the same feeling like after last week’s Guardian puzzle which was reviewed generally unfavourable because ‘Arachne is a hard act to follow’. Now, don’t get me wrong, Arachne is a top setter [and perhaps the top setter] but, for us, Paul has often that little bit extra over a lot of other setters.  Crosswords are not just about surfaces, wit and whatever. Well, to each their own.

    So, we’re clearly in the minority and have to lick our wounds. A bit like all those Barca fans tonight!

    Thank you, Eileen & Paul.

     

     

50. I’m with Steve B. and Sil on this one. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

51. I don’t think anyone is saying that Paul is not a very great setter. Indeed after Araucaria I think he is the best we have seen, giving regular pleasure to hundreds of fans along the way. I think we are worried that he is in danger of spreading himself a little thin, and that his hitherto fantastic standard is showing signs of slipping. We would like to see a return to top form, and would be prepared to accept a few fewer crosswords if it is necessary. Sil I’m not a Liverpool fan but tonight they were unbelievable, giving us one of the great games of all time!!

52. Simon S @48 raises something I think we may encounter soon- if we want top class professional puzzles, we may have to pay more for them.

53. “I think we are worried that he is in danger of spreading himself a little thin, and that his hitherto fantastic standard is showing signs of slipping”

    That’s just where I disagree.

    And while it is perhaps blasphemy, please, read some Araucaria surfaces – then, think again.

54. I’m not a mathematician by any stretch but I managed them all save for GALOIS. I only got 8dn from the crossers and a hunch after seeing DESCARTES and had to battle to finish.
    Paul is a fine setter but I’m finding him less enjoyable than I used to and I see I’m not alone.
    Not one of his best!

    I’m not a football fan but tonight Liverpool made my scouse heart beat faster!

55. I solved this early this dank morning (even the rain seemed grey) and found it delightfully challenging – Paul at his puzzling best. Just visited 225 and am dumbfounded (and saddened) by the reactions expressed here, not just to Paul but the true genius Galois also (about whom perhaps more later should I find the time).
    My only ‘quibble’ was Newton. NO SWEAT was good fun as was MATHEMATICIAN also. I wonder whether those who found either, or both, these clues ‘difficult’ allowed such to cloud their judgement. I also wonder (as I have before) whether earlier views colour later comments?
    Personally, if I had to choose between a Paul puzzle or an offering of beautiful ‘story-telling’ surfaces that are easy to solve then I’d pick Paul anytime. He remains a favourite for me.

    For now, all I can say is:

    Sil – Hear! Hear! (bis)
    SteveB – Hear! Hear!
    Paul – many, many thanks.
    Eileen – though we may disagree on this one, it was still a terrific blog. Thank you.

56. Eileen, I completely agree that a wider spread of prize compilers would be a good thing – Nutmeg in particular deserves a chance, and Arachne, Picaroon and Vlad should get more. I don’t think any compiler (however good) should appear more than once in a week, and I have also been enjoying Paul less in the last year or two.

     

57. Martin @41:  thanks.  At college in the 1970s, I heard about Fermat’s Last Theorem and the never-ending quest for a proof thereof.  I had not heard that the proof had been accomplished.  Now I can sleep better at night.

58. I found this puzzle to be of good quality but fairly easy (45 minutes) but maybe that is because I am a mathematician who also studied the associated history. For the naysayers, you have to remember with a theme puzzle that it is very time consuming to set and so the surfaces may suffer. Thanks to setter and bloggers.

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