A bank holiday in some parts of the UK, and a typically gentle puzzle from Chifonie to accompany it, slightly spoiled for me by some inaccuracies in the clueing, as noted below. Thanks to Chifonie
| Across | ||||||||
| 5. | SHADOW | Dog had to be eaten by pig (6) HAD in SOW |
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| 6. | POTENT | Impressive number invested in trophy (6) TEN in POT |
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| 9. | GAMBIT | Good scope for manoeuvre (6) G + AMBIT |
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| 10. | ODOMETER | Cheat collected energy in alternative measuring device (8) DO (cheat) MET (collected, e.g. as a group of people) E in OR (other) |
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| 11. | SOAR | Fly high? Sounds painful! (4) Homophone of “sore” |
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| 12. | DETRACTION | Belittling of the French drawing (10) DE (French “of” – not “of the”, which would be du, de la or des) + TRACTION (drawing). |
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| 13. | SEE THE LIGHT | Come to understand rage’s inconsequential (3,3,5) SEETHE (to rage) + LIGHT (inconsequential) |
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| 18. | GARDEN PATH | The way a mug may be brought up (6,4) Cryptic definition, referring to “leading someone up he garden path” meaning to fool them |
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| 21. | NOUS | Dramatic performance by America shows common sense (4) NO (Japanese drama) + US |
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| 22. | HESITANT | The Saint becomes irresolute (8) (THE SAINT)* |
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| 23. | MOORED | Soldier in a bad temper is tied up (6) RE (Royal Engineer) in MOOD |
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| 24. | THEBES | He bets foolishly in ancient Egypt (6) (HE BETS)* – Chifonie is fond of using “in X” to mean “somewhere in X”. There’s another example of this in 14d |
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| 25. | RECESS | Holiday in a secluded spot (6) Double defnition |
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| Down | ||||||||
| 1. | JAMBOREE | Press irritate Oriental in rally (8) JAM (to press) + BORE + E |
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| 2. | SORTED | Old Bob or Edward put right (6) S (shilling, bob) + OR + TED |
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| 3. | COTOPAXI | Entice one round summit of volcano (8) TOP (summit) in COAX + I. Cotopaxi is a volcano in the Andes |
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| 4. | REVERT | Always in the right to go back (6) EVER in RT |
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| 5. | SEA DOG | Dosage ordered for a mariner (3,3) (DOSAGE)* |
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| 7. | TREMOR | Romeo in Metro chaos is shaking (6) R in METRO* |
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| 8. | BOTTLE PARTY | Daring individual making do with shared expenses (6,5) BOTTLE (courage, daring) + PARTY (individual) |
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| 14. | TINTAGEL | Giant let loose in Cornwall (8) (GIANT LET)* |
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| 15. | HAND OVER | Relinquish a penny to enter royal house (4,4) D (abbreviation for the pre-1971 penny, from Latin denarius) in HANOVER |
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| 16. | PATENT | Father’s holiday accommodation is easily recognisable (6) PA + TENT |
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| 17. | DURESS | Pressure has Don going round the bend (6) U in DRESS. Don means to put [something] on – surely not the same as “dress” |
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| 19. | DRIVEL | Foolishness of motorist changing hands (6) DRIVER with the second R changed to L (so shouldn’t it be “changing hand”?) |
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| 20. | HAMPER | Hold up basket (6) Double defnition |
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For a Monday this was like Baby Bear’s porridge, some easy ones like shadow, gambit and soar, and a few that slowed me up enough to make it last a bit. A couple of loose defs maybe, like pot for trophy and recess for holiday (still think of recess as playtime at school!), but no real problems. Thanks Chifonie and thanks Andrew (will now go back and see what you picked up).
… plus a couple of dnks: the volcano, just followed instructions, and bottle party as a thing, although taking along a bottle or some beers when mates gather is pretty much de rigeur.
Thanks Andrew and Chifonie. I liked 18a GARDEN PATH. No real concern with the right and left hands in 19d DRIVEL, but I did have a question mark against Don in the clue for 17d, DURESS.
There’s a thought-provoking discussion this morning in the Guardian forum for this crossword. Someone sneers at those of us who like to thank the setter. The argument goes they get paid so we only need to comment on their ingenuity etc and thanks are superfluous. (Pascale comes in with a pertinent semi-snarled retort.) I don’t bother contributing to the forum as it is always so advanced by the time I see it (here in the UK) so I shall comment here: some of us thank people for their services regardless of their being paid (from bus drivers to checkout operators to the post person, etc). In the case of the setters, never a day goes by that I do not marvel at their generosity in providing us all with such fabulous, life-enhancing entertainment. Of course we should thank them – and I bet they get paid tuppence a throw anyway. I also thank the Guardian – long may they continue to allow us to do these crosswords for free. I really cannot bear the ungracious wingeing that I see in the various fora, with some solvers thinking they are far smarter and superior to the witty and clever setters who – quite obviously – set crosswords because of their love of wordplay and of the fun involved in laying traps and springing delicious surprises. The bloggers also are to be thanked – they are part of the fantastic service and fellow-players in the great game that helps me (at least) keep my grey cells alive and kicking.
Thanks Chifonie and Andrew
I found this rather difficult, in fact. I liked my last two, SEE THE LIGHT and HAND OVER; also TINTAGEL.
Some quibbles, though. POTENT isn’t equivalent to “impressive”. “Brought” is wrong in 18a – it should be “led” to refer to the expression (though this would make it much easier, of course). The “of” in 3d looks like it should be part of the definition, but isn’t. 16d gives PASTENT rather than PATENT. I agree about the “hands in 19d.
Thanks for sharing this TerriBlislow.
My own view, mentioned a couple of years ago, is that I find it tedious when nearly everyone gives the obligatory thanks to setter and blogger everyday.
Thanks goes without saying and does not always need to be said.
I agree about the imprecise cluing, notably OF 17d DURESS
The volcano is no problem if you were introduced in youth to the poem by W.J. Turner (from Melbourne) which starts
When I was but thirteen or so/ I went into a golden land/ Chimborazo, Cotopaxi/ Took me by the hand.
… and which keeps repeating the two-name third line in a hypnotic way.
Potent and impressive are legit in the thesaurus capacity but I wasnt keen on PASTENT if you get my drift.
And 12 should be “of French drawing” otherwise it would be DUTRACTION or DESTRACTION
Otherwise fine for a Monday
Thank you Chifonie and Andrew (I will keep on giving thanks, but I have lived in countries where it is sometimes rude to do so).
I had no problem with PATENT – the 16d clue says “Father has holiday accommodation”, i.e. PA + TENT as Andrew points out.
Cookie @9
I agree that “Father has holiday accomodation” gives PATENT, but “Father has holiday accomodation is easily recognisable” doesn’t make sense.
“Father has holiday accomodation that is easily recognisable” might work, though.
I came here too quickly and saw that I had forgotten to attempt to solve DURESS and RECESS.
New for me was COTOPAXI (found it via google).
Thank you Chifonie and Andrew.
(I prefer to say thank you out loud than silently in my heart. I am not so keen on “Thanks goes without saying and does not always need to be said.” A lot of young people these days never say please, thank you, or sorry).
muffin @10, apostrophe “s” in “it’s” means “it is” or “it has”, the clue as such is fine.
Cookie @12
…but neither “is” nor “has” makes sense in the whole clue (see mine @10). Including the “that” makes “has” work, though.
muffin @13, but it is a cryptic clue, it does not need to make sense when broken down.
Am I being dim in this warm summer morning, but surely “get dressed” means put something on?
Or even ON this warm summer …..
A lot of discussion about pa’s tent, which works as explained above by Cookie and others. No one has pointed out that in 13 ac we also get seethe’s light, so same trick must apply. No way out for dutraction though, which annoyed me more than it should have and should have been edited out. Thanks TerriBlislow for your remark. It’s so easy to get over irate on these forums (fora?) and I have to constantly check it in myself. I’m not one given to patriotism but I can hardly imagine life without the Guardian or BBC Radio 3.
I meant to say Guardian crossword. Much as I love the Guardian, I can imagine life without it, even if that life would be a duller one.
During the question and answer session following a lecture or talk, it is only good manners to thank the speaker, even if you go on to disagree with what was said. Similarly, it is only good manners to thank the setter of a crossword. Once [several] others have done so, it may be reasonable not to parrot them it, surely, we need the social lubricant of courtesy more than ever in these ugly days?
.. parrot them BUT, ….
Last night this puzzle provided a welcome reprieve from the continuing prize struggle. I came here this morning with an extra “the” and a couple of “‘s”es to point out, but found that had been done already and we were discussing gratitude. The waters are muddied a bit because it is evident that not all setters read the blog every time (there are sometimes prolonged debates over perceived typos that could be settled in a flash if the author were paying attention). My own opinion is that in this context, it is good manners to say thank you, but it is not bad manners to leave it out. Take your pick.
Thanks.
Thanks to Chifonie and Andrew. I will continue to thank the setter and blogger, as I would to anyone who provides a service (I also thank bus and taxi drivers amongst others). Enjoyable and a bit more meaty than the usual Monday fare. Last ones were Cotopaxi, odometer and bottle party. Overall a nice challenge and an informative blog,
Thanking the blogger is fine. Thanking the setter is like thanking Polly Toynbee or Simon Jenkins for doing their job. Coming back on to say “Sorry I forgot to thank….my bad.” is just over the top. As though it were compulsory But all of this is part and parcel of the friendly liitle club of “Sloggers and Betters” that is Fifteen Squared. As is bending over backwards to finding new and ingenious ways to avoid having to tell setters they have made a mistake. You accept it for what it us and you don’t have to follow suit,
Thanks to Andrew and Chifonie
And if I ever meet Polly Toynbee I’ll thank her to stop writing such 19d.
I think Muffin’s point re 16d is about “is” rather than the “‘s”, and I see what he’s getting at.
Apart from that and the French thing that I didn’t notice in solving, all good.
Another who, Like Dr. WhatsOn came here with gripes about the missing ‘s in “pastent” and “see the slight” and I was especially put off by “of the” being “de”. That’s not misleading, it is a straightforward error. Sometimes setters even pick up these errors – I note Vlad apologised for the tense error in last week’s prize long before the deadline, essentially correcting his clue for those that read the forum!
People can do a job and be paid. They can do a job well and be paid and thanked for making an extra effort. A failure to thank people “because they are paid” is absurd if they go above and beyond, but so is excessive thanking and politeness, at which point it becomes just noise. I remember the Canadian comedian Kelly Monteith pointing out that an Englishman will always apologise when someone else walks into him. But then he’ll also apologise to a wall when he walks into it.
Thanks Andrew, and thank you Chifonie for some lovely surfaces.
I didn’t find this particularly easy despite the accessible anagrams. Took me quite a while to see GARDEN PATH and BOTTLE PARTY and I didn’t know COTOPAXI.
I don’t think I’ve read a more trivial debate than than the one on whether to thank or not. I will continue to thank setters if I want to and,for those who don’t like it, feel free to skip my posts.
Thanks Chifonie.
I am unable to find the forum that TerriBlislow @4 is referring to. Can somebody post a link?
Roberto @27, it is under the guardian cryptic crossword on line
Roberto @27
It is the comments under the online version of the crossword:
https://www.theguardian.com/crosswords/cryptic/27909
Im a bit baffled by the “thanking” comments. I recently had cataract operations and I sought out the surgeon to thank him. I expect he was paid well for doing what he did: probably more than a Guardian setter. And I have seen people in London thanking the bus driver, even although the exit door is half way down the bus. We applaud actors/musicians, do we not?
3dn made me think of a song my children sang at school – different volcano:
Popocatapetl is a big volcano
Far away in Mexico
Popocatapetl goes bang, fizzle fizzle bang.
I wonder if anyone has ever clued Popocatapetl – now that would deserve thanks!
Cookie @ 28
Sorry – we crossed (never apologise …)
Marienkaefer @30, see GOZO FT 15,480
Cookie @ 32 – thanks (if I may…). Great clue!
COD 1d, great clue.
Cookie @28 and Marienkaefer @ 29 thanks (should I 🙂 ) for the pointers, I must be losing it :).
Indeed I have to agree with those who think that there is always room for a little politeness in how we treat others. Good manners do not cost anything.
But perhaps all this is symbolic of modern life….people just seem to think boorishness makes them look important.
I enjoyed this puzzle…it wasn’t that tough….so thanks setter and bloggers, keep up the good work.
Having said that, is there anybody else who cannot understand the preamble to this weeks Maskerade?
When it gets that difficult it is not fun any more, it is torture. Novice solvers don’t have a chance!
Cookie @14
Are you saying that it doesn’t matter if the surface of the clue doesn’t make sense? I don’t believe that you really think that 🙂
Roberto @34
Please do not discuss Saturday’s Maskarade because it is a prize puzzle that is still live. Comments about it may be made when the appropriate blog appears next Saturday.
muffin @35: the surface does make sense. In the surface, “father’s” is the possessive (the holiday accommodation belonging to father). In the cryptic reading, “father’s” means “father has”. As Cookie suggests, the meaning of a word or phrase is not necessarily the same in both.
Lord Jim. With respect “Father has holiday accommodation is easily recognisable” makes no sense at all.
I’m pro-thanking, although I don’t always remember to do it. In another context, a friend of mine argued that it wasn’t necessary to thank people for just doing their jobs. I responded as Marienkaefer did: how is it different from applauding the actors in a play?
I found this puzzle quite difficult for a Monday. I didn’t know Tintagel or Cotopaxi, and I got stuck multiple times in other sections as well.
Thanks to Chifonie and Andrew!
We’ve just finished it and thought it a fair and enjoyable puzzle: have always liked Chifonie. Not sure Gaufrid is right to chastise Roberto, though. Saying you don’t understand the instructions to a prize is not spoiling, surely?
Interesting to read the various comments on ‘Thanks’ following my earlier post.
Yes, we applaud an act even if it is rubbish and I usually acknowledge the bus driver when I get off and sometimes thank setter and/or blogger.
The point I was making is that to do it all the time, as if obligatory, diminishes its validity.
Re: TheZed @ 25, people also apologise when it is I who have walked across their path. I’m tempted to point out that it is I who should apologise, you don’t do you. You just carry on!
I think the point that Lord Jim is making @37 is yhat a word doesn’t necessarily have to mean the same in the surface as in the wordplay. On the whole I agree, but I still have this nagging feeling that doing this with an apostrophe is is slightly cheating.
Am new to cryptic crosswords so enjoy the Everyman and now venturing into other Guardian / Observer days other than Sunday! Managed Chifonie’s today and really enjoyed it. I’m fine with Don giving ‘dress’ – you can dress for dinner and also don a smart suit so I think it’s an acceptable synonym. I don’t know why DO = cheat though if anyone can explain. Probably obvious but I can’t see it! Thank you to Chifonie and Andrew 🙂
SkyBlueWaggers @43
Think “we were done” ie cheated.
SkyBlueWaggers @43
The Guardian publish an online crossword (called the Quiptic) every Monday for “beginners and people in a hurry”. It’s often a great puzzle. Today’s is here.
Ah! Thank you @Marienkaefer – yes that makes sense now! Also thanks @muffin – will give that a go. I thought Quiptic was more of a quiz so haven’t looked at that. Much appreciated.
jeceris @23
Both of your comments are right on the money, as the kids say.
Cookie @14: “…but it is a cryptic clue, it does not need to make sense when broken down.”
Here is my understanding. A cryptic clue’s surface reading applies to the clue as a whole (not to the individual parts) and should always be smooth (as indeed 16d is). But the smoothness of 16d requires that “Father’s holiday” means “The holiday of Father” whereas the cryptic part requires it to mean “Father has”. It seems unfair to want to have it both ways, just as it seems unfair to equate Tintagel with Cornwall. Long-established Ximenean principles mandate that the solver be dealt with fairly.
Too late to comment on yesterday’s Chiffonie, but just had to thank quenbarrow @7 for reminding me of the poem … Chimborazo and Cotopaxi were running through my head and I couldn’t find the rest …
muffin @42, the apostrophe seems to be fairly frequently used in this way, for example
Imogen, 27,899, 15a, “Russian bishop’s prayer not working”
Qaos, 27,898, 14a, “By chief of business’s tally, lousy bet leads to unrecoverable money”
hfowler @48, thank you (are you a descendant of the grammarian?). I see what you mean, probably the examples I cited @50 are not valid?
12 If you read it as ‘of (the French)’ it’s fine.
Passim ‘s meaning different things in surface and cryptic reading is Cryptics 101 – for Ximenean setters too.
18 ‘brought’ is fine for the cryptic definition – leading or pushing, both would be ‘bringing’.
Thanks to the blogger for parsings and to the setter for putting in the effort and for choosing to do this for a living rather than, say, designing novel ways to kill people.
Roberto @34: Clarification of the Prize instructions can be found on the Guardian chat
https://www.theguardian.com/crosswords/cryptic/27907
Timestamp 24 Aug 2019 11:27
Cookie @ 51
No, not a descendant of Henry Fowler, just a fervent disciple. As to the examples you cite, you make a good point by showing that this is not the first time that this device has been used. But if it’s not quite fair, it shouldn’t matter how often it appears or how many setters use it, and (like muffin @ 42) I think it is (at least) slightly cheating because a solver can’t tell from the surface reading whether or not the “apostrophe s” in the cryptic part of the clue is meant to indicate that the “s” is part of the answer.