It’s always good to see Puck’s name on a puzzle but, having missed the Irish racecourses in his last one, I was perhaps a bit more nervous than usual in setting out on solving and blogging this one.
I found the solving and parsing quite challenging, never mind keeping an eye out for a possible theme. ‘Singer’ occurred in the clues several times but I couldn’t see any less tenuous connection between BARRY MANILOW and MAURICE CHEVALIER and I hadn’t heard of the model at 10,25. 15dn took longer to get than it should have but, once I saw that, the rest fell neatly into place, with a contented sigh. BARRY, MAURICE and ROBIN are all GIBBS and, collectively, the BEE GEEs, firm favourites of mine, back in the day.
There’s the customary clever and witty cluing here, including two different uses of 14 and 15dn, making for an interesting and enjoyable solve. There’s just one bit of parsing [18,11] which has eluded me, so it’s over to you. [
Many thanks to Puck.
Definitions are underlined in the clues.
Across
7 Hat priced badly, going for a song (4,5)
DIRT CHEAP
An anagram [badly] of HAT PRICED
8, 4 Singer Rod, extremely raunchy male (article by 1 down) (5,7)
BARRY MANILOW
BAR [rod] + R[aunch]Y + M [male] + AN [article] + I [1] + LOW [down]
9 Succeed the first time? Don’t be ridiculous! (4,3,2)
COME OFF IT
COME OFF [succeed] + I [the first, as in regnal numbers] + T [time]
10, 25 down Things assumed to be true by singer, actor and model (5,6)
ROBIN GIVENS
ROBIN [singer] + GIVENS [things assumed to be true] – here’s the model
13 Working with 10, new 14 15 pens article for the net (5,3)
ONION BAG
ON [working] + IO [10] + N [new] + B [bee – 14] G [gee – 15] round [pens] A [article] – I didn’t know this slang term for a goal net but the wordplay was clear
16, 28 Actor and singer cast in a chimerical revue (7,9)
MAURICE CHEVALIER
An anagram [cast] of A CHIMERICAL REVUE
19 Small booth with Observer and Time Out (4-3)
SHUT-EYE
S [small] + HUT [booth] + EYE [observer]
22 Fool clenches fist, knocking out posh Aussie (3,5)
NED KELLY
NELLY [fool] round [clenches] D[u]KE [fist] minus [knocking out] u [posh] – here’s the Aussie
25, 12 Mechanic agrees: roughly £500 (6,6)
GREASE MONKEY
An anagram [roughly] of AGREES + MONKEY [slang for £500]
27 Search round for small band (5)
COMBO
COMB + O [round]
29 Architect from 15 14 repeatedly visiting Iceland (5)
GIBBS
G [gee – answer to 15dn] + BB bee – answer to 16dn, repeatedly, in IS [Iceland – International Vehicle Registration] – here’s the architect
30 Party with sister Ruby, perhaps, back in Australia? (4,5)
DOWN UNDER
DO [party] + W [with] + NUN [sister] + a reversal [back] of RED [Ruby, perhaps]
Down
1 Male paid by performance, not at first unaccompanied (6)
GIGOLO
GIG [performance] + [s]OLO [unaccompanied, minus its first letter]
2 Keen exhibitionist just starting run — under arrest potentially right away? (8)
STREAKER
Initial letters [just starting] of Keen Exhibitionist + R [run] under [in a down clue] an anagram [possibly] of AR[r]EST – right away: &lit
3 Reticent about two newspapers appearing evasive (6)
SHIFTY
SHY [reticent] round I and FT [two newspapers]
5 Desert shade (6)
MAROON
Double definition
6 Supply kit, not primarily for a team of 3 15 15s? (6)
TROIKA
An anagram [supple-ly] of KIT and [f]OR + A – a Russian vehicle drawn by three horses [GEE GEEs – 15s]
14 Drink not right for social gathering (3)
BEE
BEE[r] [drink
15 My regular visits to Gateshead (3)
GEE
We’ve several times had ‘Gateshead’ as [slightly controversial] wordplay for G, so I was held up for a few minutes here, where we have to take ‘regular’ letters of GatEshEad
16, 17 Team raving about fan (3,3)
MAN UTD
MAD [raving] round NUT [fan]
18, 11 Unemotional person clings, with space needed (4,4)
COLD FISH
I’m sorry, I can’t parse this at all – [It’s C [cold] + LINGS [fish] – thanks to several early posters: [Collins gives lings as an alternative plural]
20 Making threefold part for high voices (mostly home key) (8)
TREBLING
TREBL[e] [part for high voices – mostly] + IN [home] + G [key]
21 Happy, oddly, caught up in extremely northern storm (7)
TYPHOON
Odd letters of HaPpY reversed [caught up] in TOO [extremely] N [northern] – horribly topical
23 Outlandish point by Times, relating to the Listener (6)
EXOTIC
E [East – point] + X [times] + OTIC [relating to the ear – listener]
24 Fast food from Bake Off? Nonsense! (6)
KEBABS
An anagram [off] of BAKE + BS [bullshit – nonsense – US slang, says Chambers]
26 Notably two-in-one record player (6)
STEREO
TE RE [two notes in SO [one note]
Nearly got there, even if several were not properly parsed. But defeated by Robin Givens and therefore the tricky Troika…
Eileen
Re 18,11, if you separate C LINGS you would get cold lings although ling is probably the plural.
Thanks both.
For 18, 11 you need to split clings as C + LINGS (indicated by “with space needed).
Thanks, both – I knew it wouldn’t take long!
Thanks Puck and Eileen
I did see the themes, but the BeeGees one too later to stop me trying ADELE GIVENS for 10 25 first (no, I hadn’t heard of her either – found froma wordsearch, and I knew ADELE was a singer).
I couldn’t parse COLD FISH either, or STREAKER. I didn’t know GIBBS the architect, but I had the theme by the time I got to that; that and COMBO were last in.
Favourite was the delightful GIGOLO.
Aha! COLD FISH is C lINGS when you insert a space! Thanks for the blog.
@Bracoman, Hovis – sorry, crossed. Too slow to type dammit
I’m clueless on 18,11 as well Eileen – although no doubt it will have been parsed by the time I type and post this. Otherwise good fun and much lighter than yesterday. Loi was TROIKA and I liked the interplay of the clues. Thanks Puck and Eileen.
I found this quite a quick solve, having spotted the theme early. Enjoyed it.
Thanks to Puck and Eileen
Should add that 20d is a clear Bee GEEs reference as is 25a. There may be more.
A very well conceived puzzle spreading the brothers round with other celebs.The Man U clue was relevant as they started out there (born IOM) as were the Aussie clues.Paul was pushing a bit hard yesterday but Puck was dancing today.
Thanks to him and Eileen.
Not sure about parsing of 2d. Arrest +K+E+R provides 9 letters.
And can I recommend “Meaningless songs in very high voices” by The Heebeegeebees as an antidote to Barry Maurice etc?
Thanks, Ian Wilson@12 – a careless error when writing the blog: I overlooked ‘right away’ in AR[r]EST – I saw it when I solved it! I’ll correct it now.
Breezed through this, surprisingly as models and show biz celebs make me groan, although the bros Gibb were beloved of Mrs ginf so the sneaky sub-theme was emotional. No idea how I know Barry Manilow, are there jokes about him? As for Maurice, well, Thank ‘Eavens, but Robin Givens was a total nho, so crossers + guess. C lings was cute, but stereo was a bung,
maybe because of aversion to that song, which someone, yesterday?, called dreadful (actually, my sister and cousins used to sing it, along with Supercali from MP, and I didn’t mind). Good fun, thanks both.
The Bee Gees was a favourite band when I was young though I didn’t like their later disco phase. “Words” was one of their songs I particularly loved. They grew up not far from the Sunshine Coast where I live now, at both Redcliffe and Cribb Island in northern Brisbane. So the theme appealed once I spotted it… as did the inclusion of NED KELLY and DOWN UNDER (so parochial I know!).
I found it an enjoyable solve as far as I went, but it was a DNF in the end as I missed 6d TROIKA and had to cheat 25d GIVENS, even though ROBIN was obviously the first name. The latter was totally unfamiliar and I thought TROIKA was something to do with political history. I also didn’t understand 18/11d COLD FISH, so well done to those who saw it.
Thanks to Puck for the reminder of some good early songs and to Eileen for an interesting blog.
[We crossed, gif@14. Glad to find something else I have in common with the late Mrs gif. I always love hearing more about her – I think I would have liked her a lot.]
Hi Ian. Arrest* with right away, I think…
Very enjoyable crossword as others have said, with clever but sparing use of the theme and associated references. I cannot let the comment from Ian Wilson@12 go unanswered. I share your obvious disdain for the late 70’s re-emergence of the Bee Gees with the falsetto voices etc., but the late 60’s/early 70’s version were a very different group. Spicks and Specks remains on my all-time list of reminiscence anthems. Many thanks to Puck and Eileen, both in typically fine form today.
Ugh! Must have been a lot uploading as I responded to Ian…
Thanks Eileen and Puck.
I hid the setter’s name again. I was surprised by a quick start to this, getting, amongst other answers, MC and BM singers; so it was only later that I thought it might be an offering from Puck, Qaos or Tramp. A list of setters in front of me would help with this guess the setter game.
However, I slowed down for the last half dozen answers; I just couldn’t see BEE GEE for ages despite having an inkling early on that something about the clues suggested a theme about them (possibly the GIVENS sounding vaguely like GIBBS). The ROBIN of RG, GIBBS and TROIKA then followed.
COLD FISH a great clue now it has been explained to me.
[We also crossed, JinA@16. I believe we are of a similar vintage so not surprised that we share a similar reaction to the Bee Gees music. I went to high school in Kelly country (Benalla) and his legacy was still very real at the time. I have about a 3 degrees of separation link to the (in)famous Ned, so that brought an extra spark to the solve.]
Yes indeed witty and clever clueing. Got the theme on completion (doh) and stared at cold fish for quite some time before the penny dropped re parsing. Realised after coming here though that I hadn’t properly parsed stereo- having simply seen it as a cryptic definition (despite having thought about do re mi etc early on).
I first heard the bee gees in sat night fever (the film) so for me they are synonymous with disco and learning the dance associated with that film, a somewhat amusing memory.
Thanks to Puck for the fun and Eileen for the blog.
[Thanks JinA, yes you would have; she was an absolute ace, larger than life, last on the dance floor, but at the same time an absolute rock and fount of wisdom. Her send-off was monumental, hundreds of colleagues, clients and beloveds]
Thanks to Puck and Eileen
I was defeated by Troika, just wondered if there is any link to perestroika?
Troika is the most well-known movement from Prokofiev’s Lieutenant Kije suite – sometimes mistranslated as “sleigh ride”.
Not sure how far general knowledge should include obscure Americans who used to be famous for something – though remembered Ms Givens for Mike Tyson’s awfully witty and amusing comment that when he lamped her once it was the best punch he ever threw. (Laughter from the audience on the Oprah Winfrey show, apparently).
Didn’t manage to parse 18,11 but I guess it’s pretty clever.
GeoffW @24 I’m only guessing here but I think Perestroika means reconstruction and troika means a group of three so I suspect they are only related by a suffix similar to English -tion, as in reconstruction and triplication
Troika and trebling are also possibly thematic, as there are (of course) three Bee Gees.
5 down might be a triple definition. There is a modern beat combo called Maroon 5, so the clue could actually be read as 5, Dessert, Shade were one minded thus to do.
But perhaps I over-reach.
I thoroughly enjoyed this although the Bee Gees, Robin Givens and Barry Manilow, form a theme from hell IMHO. This is clearly not the case for most of the commenters here especially those from down under who look to the Bee Gees as one of there own. I did not know about there history with Australia, so that is GK I must store away. My favourites among many were STREAKER, GREASE MONKEY and KEBABS. Very many thanks to Puck and Eileen for the, as ever, insightful blog.
Today’s theme reminded me of one of my all-time favourite clues, by Paul (27,523):
Actress was less inclined to sketch Robin and Maurice Gibb, but…? (4,9)
Thanks Puck and Eileen.
Like muffin @5, I found ADELE GIVENS, who is an actor but not a model as far as I know. Had forgotten, or didn’t know, ROBIN GIVENS. I should have twigged about ROBIN, having seen the BeeGees.
TYPHOON makes an ugly appearance after the devastation in Japan. Do we have any Japanese solvers?
Thanks Puck and Eileen.
That should of course be their history!!
Thanks Puck for an enjoyable crossword and Eileen (and earlier contributors) for sorting out quite a lot of the parsing. I’m not a huge BeeGees fan but familiar enough that it helped me out of a few tough spots (eg Gibbs) once I noticed their presence – thanks to BEE which appeared in a different form a week or two ago – and only got Robin Givens “parse-backwards” once the V was there from Chevalier. I only know him because of the Marx Brothers’ Monkey Business! My LOI was STEREO which I still don’t really see as the same thing as “record player” – my record player is one component of my stereo, if I sold it (the record player) I would still have a stereo (the cd, tape, amp, speakers), and I would not describe the record player as a stereo if I were selling that part alone. Have I missed something, is this a generational thing – i think my dad had some sort of integrated record player, radio and amp so maybe the two were synonymous once? Anyway after a headache for the last couple of days thanks to an annoying virus this has put me in a good mood for the weekend, subject to revision if rugby results don’t go the right way!
I loved the BEE GEES theme and other musical references, including my favourite thematic clue, BARRY MANILOW. Didn’t know ONION BAG but dutifully followed the wordplay and came up with the correct answer. The &littish GIGOLO was also very good
Thanks to Puck for a fun puzzle and to Eileen
Generally I found this tough going (I often struggle with Puck), but non the less enjoyable. A lot went in quite readily but the last few took ages. The NE was last to fall, with bee, gee, onion bag, the model and troika the last ones. This of course meant I spotted the theme too late to help much. Not a great fan of the group however despite having bought three of their early albums (rare, precious and beautiful) in the late 60s (I think). Favourite for me were combo, come off it and Man Utd. Thanks to Puck for the challenge and Eileen and others for clarifying some parsing.
Has nobody mentioned the “GREASE” connection yet? Barry Gibb wrote the song.
Barry R @ 36 see Hovis @10…
Thanks both,
I’m not sure I should have got 29a had I not been an alumnus of King’s.
After that the theme stood out, so 10a had to be Robin as it wouldn’t fit anywhere else. Previously I’d toyed with ‘Given Givens’ in homage to Donald Rumsfeld.
OK – I know this is probably dumb. But what is the My – Gee connection in 15?
“My” as short for “My goodness!”, which could also be expressed by “Gee whizz!” or just “Gee!”
missed the architect 29a, a bit silly given the obvious connection to the theme.
Many thanks puck, much fun
Didn’t see the theme until I’d nearly finished. I thought the BEE GEEs were awful -and don’t get me started on BARRY MANILOW! Still, quite a good puzzle even though I couldn’t get all the parsing. I’ve never heard of ROBIN GIVENS and I can’t think why I should’ve but I did get the answer so I suppose—–!
Thanks Puck.
Missed the BEE GEEs theme, as clear as it was. Tragedy.
Nice Puckish puzzle even so. Lots of hits, and I have learned of an architect I didn’t know of before.
I was a bit thrown by 2d, having to remove an R for ‘right’ and then add one for ‘run’. It seemed a bit labour intensive though I suppose ‘under’ would have caused problems otherwise, and it’s a clever &lit.
Thanks to Puck and Eileen: so rare for the latter not to parse everything but I didn’t see how COLD FISH worked either; so thanks to those posters who did.
Thanks Puck for a great puzzle, I liked all the clever clueing around the short clues and the theme was a good one with the members’ names cleverly woven in. I particularly enjoyed reading about Gibbs the architect who was responsible for some iconic buildings in London and elsewhere.
Thanks to Eileen for the excellent blog and parsing. I should have worked out the parsing for stereo but couldn’t quite make it.
Well, it doesn’t often happen when I come here, but I feel kinda smug: I’m well aware of who Robin Givens is, to the point that I got the answer from the crossers and then did the parsing! Roughly the same goes for Chevalier once the “Maurice” became obvious.
*bows smugly*
Hm. Or Maybe it’s just because I’m an old fart that these names are so familiar . . .
I picked this up very late but was so glad I did so. There was a lot to enjoy here with all the cross-referencing going on, and I liked the clever use of BEE and GEE.
There were many neat touches and tricks in the clues, and I managed to work everything out except for COLD FISH. In not understanding that one I see I’m in good company!
I spotted the Bee Gees – much appreciated – but had never heard of Gibbs the architect. (The clue was crystal clear, though.)
Thank you Eileen for the blog, and many thanks to Puck for a super puzzle.
Might be over-reach, but there is an Australian music link to Grease (ONJ appearing in the film, Barry Gibb and John Farrar writing the songs) and to Dirt Cheap (AC/DC).
[I really loved your contribution of an old gold clue, Lord Jim@30 -hoping you see this! It certainly drew a laugh out loud from me!.]
Sandman @ 28
I also thought 5d was no accident, although sadly I can’t think of any connection between Maroon 5 and the Bee Gees so I guess it’s not thematic.
This is for Eileen’s eyes only; I don’t intend or expect it to be published.
Until it stopped publishing cryptics online, I was a 25-year member of the Times of London Cryptic Crossword Club and as such grew used to a certain standard. In all that time there were just two instances when I had an issue with, or could not parse, an answer. I’ve been sporadically doing Guardian cryptics for a few months but have decided to stop torturing myself, as I’ve become rather discouraged by the apparent lack of editing and/or historical standards. I’m sorry to be so negative (most commentators focus relentlessly only on the positive). but things aren’t getting any better, even though some commentators have mentioned the need for editing. Even when a commentator has a legitimate criticism, it quickly draws responses of “It works for me” and “It’s just GK” and so on. Some of my specific criticisms herein refer to puzzle 27,955, but some are more general. The primary emphasis seems to be on themes rather than on concise, unassailable cluing. I don’t: (1) know obscure French terms; (2) own a dozen different dictionaries; (3) know the International Vehicle Registration codes or all the participants in all the sports of the world, or believe they’re GK (apparently, GK is anything that anyone knows or can find somewhere); (4) believe that a clue containing 10 words (e.g., 2 down) is well constructed (would 15 be okay as well?); or (5) believe that CLINGS is a good CD just because Collins gives LINGS as an alternative plural (these days, unfortunately, most dictionaries are descriptive rather than prescriptive, making it possible to justify almost anything if you look in enough of them). Finally, some back-and-forth cluing is fine, but this puzzle dramatically uses the device ad nauseam. A clue such as 6 down is just bewildering to most people (I would bet) and not particularly clever IMO. I don’t believe that a good cryptic crossword has to have clues (or answers) that are overly convoluted, obscure, or confusing. I hope you will find at least some of the above worth while and legitimate food for thought, and I thank you for taking the time to read this.
I want to make it clear that my criticisms are not sour grapes; as with other solvers, I can get the correct answer most of the time even if I have a problem with its clue. And I respect and admire the puzzle writers themselves, who are obviously highly inventive people. I just think they would benefit from a thorough knowledge of the principles espoused by Ximenes and Azed along with judicious editing.
hHfowler@50
In general I agree with you. I made a similar point on the General Discussion page @77,78.
hfowler @ 50
Dictionaries have always been descriptive, as they record usage and its changes. People then interpret them as being prescriptive in attempts to justify language being immutable, in their opinions.
hfowler @51 – thank you for your comment. [For the record, bloggers receive emails of their comments after they have been published here.]
I’ve read your comment carefully and recognise most of the points as having been discussed here, severally, over a considerable length of time – see Pino’s comment above.
I don’t think we’re ever going to agree as to what should constitute ‘General Knowledge’ or how far setters should feel free to bend the ‘rules’ of Ximenes. Generally, I think we accept that we must agree to differ: most of us have our favourite setters and, on the whole, I think the Guardian caters for a pretty wide range of styles and preferences.
As for dictionaries, my edit comment re Collins including ‘lings’ as a plural was in direct response to Bracoman @2. Regular commenters will know that I am no apologist for dictionaries but I have just been thoroughly chastened: I was going to say that I would never, for instance, say ‘disinterested’ when I meant ‘uninterested’ but I find that Chambers gives the latter [second] definition as ‘revived from obsolescence’ – so, as Simon says above, language is by no means immutable!
hfowler @51
I disagree with your specific points on this puzzle (except, possibly, LINGS – I’ve mentioned this before; a fish, some fishes, lots of fish does seem odd), but I do agree with you basic point that the “descriptional” dictionaries should include “incorrect” – might I just say “epicentre” (which I saw misused in the Guardian yesterday).
must agree with the comment on Gateshead. having grown up in the north of England and attended Gateshead college I have never heard of Gateshead referred to as the G.
now living in OZ and over here the only G is the MCG
dolphin @56 – to clarify: when G is clued as ‘Gateshead’, it’s G as being the first letter [‘head’] of ‘gate’.
Pino @52: I read your comments on the General Discussion page. Thank you.
Simon S @53: You may want to check out https://ask.metafilter.com/222892/Which-dictionaries-are-prescriptivistdescriptivist; if you do, please read the entire page. Not everyone agrees with you. Of course language is not immutable. But here’s a sort of thought experiment. It’s becoming more and more common to see the past tense of the verb “lead” written as “lead” also. Why, then, should dictionaries not include this as an alternate spelling? Why can’t it be seen as just a natural mutation? “Ridiculous!” you may say. Well, why should spelling be more immutable than definition? If language is important at all, it cries out for the acceptance of some orthodoxy. If attention to detail in language is lacking, so much the worse for understanding. Rules of grammar, spelling, and punctuation and definitional precision all contribute to clarity. True, cryptic crosswords aren’t on the same level of importance as, say, articles of impeachment, but when clarity is lacking it detracts from their understanding, making them a less enjoyable exercise.
We wouldn’t normally leave a comment this late but Eileen is the blogger so we trust she’ll read this! I am feeling a little smug as I parsed “cold fish” quite early on; though somewhat less smug for lying awake trying to remember who the third Bee Gee was. (Robin was the one we hadn’t got). I am also not sure that Barry Gibb wrote the songs to Grease – I can’t find him referenced anywhere. Thanks Puck and Eileen – and yes, we’ve only just finished the puzzle…..