Guardian 28,058 – Pan

70 comments on “Guardian 28,058 – Pan”

1. Yes a few liberties in the cluing: fellow for men; 27ac and 6d should swap reversal indicators, and the a trader is a vendOR (nho the alternative spelling). Also had a ? for the ‘o’ in adroit, but the apostrophe fixes that, thanks Andrew. Pretty much a write-in, as you say. Thanks Pan.

2. ..delete the a before trader (dnk how to remove the phone keyboard after typing, making proofreading hard)…

3. I didn’t have an issue with 10a. For example, a bird expert would be an expert in birds.

4. The New Yorker insists on the VENDER spelling which always seems jarring to me — but must be valid I suppose.

5. Expert with/about/on [the subject of] men, menace…hmmm, subtle; good one hovis, and Pan.

6. .. Hovis, upper case, pardon…

7. Fairly straight forward, although lollard and chaldean were new to me.It took me an age to write in MALIGN because i had totally forgotten its use as a adjective. I kept thinking much-maligned.I knew priapic having just finished Clive James’s Always Unreliable. It’s a word he liked a lot.A good confidence booster. Thanks Pan

8. Thanks both. This blog isn’t appearing in the “Guardian” category for some reason

9. Hovis: I see your point, but a “fellow expert” would still be a MAN ACE; you wouldn’t use “birds ace”.

10. I spent more time in the NE than I’d have liked, not helped by my unfamiliarity with CHALDEAN, but an enjoyable start go the week. Thanks Hovis, and Pan

11. Andrew @9. To be honest, I would never say MAN ACE or MEN ACE so I’m equally ok (or not) with either. The point was really that a fellow expert would be an expert on men.

12. Thanks Pan and Andrew

    Yes, a bit sloppy in places. As well as DEBUTANTE working better as a down clue, you could argue that LOLLARD would be better as an across. I was surprised that “vender” is a valid spelling.

    Why “short piece of music” for MOTET? Tallis’s wonderful 40 part motet Spem in alium lasts about ten minutes.

    Anto’s Quiptic is much harder, but does have some lovely clues.

13. I was unable to parse the O in ADROIT, and for 6a I had not heard of birdlime, but guessed the solution was LIME. I also realise now that I had not parsed PRO/VENDER.

    My favourites were GROVE, PROM.

    New for me was LOLLARD.

    Thanks, Andrew and Pan.

     

14. Hovis @3 & 11, Andrew @9

    At first I agreed with Hovis’ view, but changed my mind on further examination. English grammar requires that when forming a compound noun, the first element is always singular. That is why we say “matchbox” and not “matchesbox”, even though it contains more than one match.

    It is also why you should never say “database” and then argue that data is plural in English (because it is in Latin).

    The question then is whether MAN/MEN is the first element of a compound noun, or a noun being used as a qualifier (adjective). And if it is noun-as-adjective, then it is usually used in the singular – but as far as I can see, English grammar is not as rigid here and it doesn’t have  to be….

15. Great blog and good Monday puzzle but I wont try and defend dodgy editing

    Why not…

    Food for trader reported

    Threat posed by army expert

    Writer(I prefer poet) holding Underground BACK

    Just my 2 bobs worth

    Thanks all.

     

     

16. I found this sloppy and irritating. Aside from the MENACE question (it’s just wrong in my view, and should have been caught by the editor), the parsing for CHALDEAN is unconvincing (the A is in the wrong place in the clue). Furthermore, a MANGROVE is not a swamp, it’s a tree that grows in swamps.

17. pic @16. Don’t know if this was your intention but your last sentence is highlighting a problem with the blog not the setter.

18. Sorry, poc not pic. Autocorrect again.

19. Straightforward as others have said and pleasant enough even with the odd query. Poc@16 – isn’t that what the clue (but not the blog) says? “Fellow leaving tree in swamp” reads to me as “man leaving mangrove” – a tree that grows in swamps. Thanks to Pan and Andrew

20. Sorry Hovis – we crossed.

21. poc (@16) (again): I too thought the A was in the wrong place at first but –

    you could look at it as [L by A = AL] and then the DEAN

22. Grantinfreo @2 handy hint for editing text on a phone: tap and hold the space bar then you can move the cursor up, left or right to wherever you like.

23. In CHALDEAN I assumed the L was being “used by” A DEAN but I’m pretty jet-lagged so maybe on completely the wrong track

24. Trismegistus @14. Just a minor point. Data is a collective noun and so (grammatically) can be singular or plural. As for MENace, I’m (reluctantly) happy with the “expert on men” explanation.

25. …actually (should have checked before), Chambers gives data as either plural (of datum) or singular (facts given…)

26. Pleasant solve, although I had to wrestle a bit with the NE corner. MENACE, DEBUTANTE and the enumeration of NOSE JOB were the only ones I had issue with.

    I wonder how Paul might clue PISSARRO …

    I liked the simple PROM.

    Thanks Pan and Andrew.

27. MOTET can also be spelled MOTETT so maybe Pan was just indicating the shorter form? MENACE may be a bit contrived but I’ve seen far worse

28. I enjoyed this and had no trouble finishing, so again we have the question of why many contributors here complained that it was all over too quickly and then nit pick some of the clues.  So, I completely concur for instance with WhiteKing @ 19 concerning the apparent mangrove problem.  Can anyone come on here and honestly say they did not get 23 because of any inaccuracy in the clue.  As for MOTET; muffin your example is OK but compared to say Mahler’s 8th it must be regarded as short surely!

    Many thanks Pan and Andrew!

29. Ta for that Didby@22.

    While I’m at it, another quiblet is prom[pt], adjective, vs punctally, adverb. Hey ho.

    [Tapped and held, still dnk how to make the keyboard go away so that the text, ie more than 3 lines of it, can be proofread; hey ho again]

30. DiGby, qed…

31. In 29ac we are back to the old argument about clues using ‘up’ to denote ‘backwards’ belonging to Down clues only. It can only be on the basis of convention to argue this, because in my book ‘up’ is a perfectly acceptable cryptic device to describe a word spelt backwards, be it sideways, upwards, downwards or diagonal.

32. Thank you Pan for an enjoyable puzzle and Andrew for a helpful blog.

    I agree with those who parse 10a as ‘ACE on MEN’.  Muffin @12, a MOTET according to the COED is “a short sacred choral composition”.

33. S Panza @28

    I agree that the Tallis isn’t of symphonic proportions, but “short” is still a superfluous word in the clue; a motet is a “piece of music”, surely?

34. Blaise @24 & 25, I agree. There seem to be two distinct words in modern English – “data”, which is a mass noun and uncountable, and the more archaic “datum” meaning a given fact, the plural of which is “data”. Both are derived from the same Latin root, but that doesn’t mean that they are equivalent or synonymous.

    I just like poking fun at people who insist that only the form “datum/data” exists and watching them tie themselves up in knots of inconsistency. “Too much data” (instead of “too many data”) is only the start. Why say “datapoint” when (a) it should be “datumpoint” and (b) there is already a perfectly good word – “datum”? Do these people ever ask if the agenda WERE sent out?

    But still undecided on the nature of MEN-ACE/MAN-ACE…

    poc @16 and Whiteking @19 – the clue clearly says “tree in swamp”, not “swamp”, so it seems to be a touch of falling-asleep-at-the-wheel in an otherwise excellent blog (for which thanks, Andrew)

    grantinfreo @29 – no, I didn’t like “prompt” = “punctual” either. I can be punctual for a meeting in 4 weeks’ time, but I’d only be prompt if I turned up in 3 weeks, surely?

35. I turned up punctually / prompt at 3 o’clock.

36. [Off topic, but has the Guardian published the wrong sudoku today? It’s supposed to be “easy”, but it certainly isn’t!]

37. I don’t know how a puzzle can be “gentle” or “straightforward” and simultaneously have so many questionable if not incorrect clues – or put another way, generating so much discussion! Quick to finish, maybe, but not those other adjectives.

38. Liked PROM despite the quiblet. Thanks Pan and Andrew. Ten minutes of Tallis takes me back to when I sat down with the wireless for 3 hours of Wagner – it took over 7!

    Dr W: I’ve left you a link on the Paul Prize blog.

39. I found this harder than most here, not sure why. Perhaps because I struggled a bit, the sloppiness of some clues annoyed me more than it might have otherwise. Collins put me right about at least one of my gripes, though. I was under the impression that “prompt” could only be a noun, verb, or adjective, but apparently in British usage it can also be an adverb.

40. muffin @ 33, I agree, but my point is that it did not stop you getting the answer which is surely the important thing.  And just to emphasise, Spem in alium is indeed a wonderful piece of music as you so rightly state!!

41. Trismegistus @ 34, I wonder if you have any week spots?  If you do, I hope you don’t mind others ‘poking fun’ at you when you perhaps exhibit them.

42. @40 spem in alium – hope in an onion?

    OK, sometimes accuracy is not humorous….

43. SPanza @34, yes, lots, and if you start poking fun I will often be the first to join in.

    Sorry if I appear serious and didactic, but that seems to be the prevailing atmosphere on here

44. Now that the man/men ace controversy has been resolved, can anyone tell me where the second R in Pissarro came from?

45. Princess V @44 – possibly “runs” (plural) indicates more than one “R”, but happy tp hear any other suggestions….

46. SPanza @40

    I agree that it didn’t make any difference to solving it, but I like clues to be as concise as possible!

47. Would it have been difficult to have “back” instead of “up” in 27?

48. muffin@36 It is a tricky easy sudoku. Perhaps focus on the 9 in the bottom right corner ….

49. Thanks Idleislander. I did finish it eventually, but “easy” it wasn’t!

50. Well said Trimegistus @ 43!  I would always prefer to delight in the positive as far as this blog is concerned and not be too pedantic and critical.  On the whole I believe we should give thanks to the Guardian for giving us such a rich spectrum of very fine crosswords – in my case as I live in Spain – for free.  I have to feel the editor does a fine job of contracting and coordinating such a wonderful range of setters.  I always feel uncomfortable when the level of criticism of the editor or the setters goes beyond the pale as it often used to do with poor Rufus.  And I truly believe the old adage that if you cannot say anything good about something it is better to say nothing at all!

51. I found some parts of this very straightforward, others took an age. CHALDEAN was certainly in the latter camp, and it was a good long while before LOLLARD appeared from some deep memory-vault. But this meant I had the pleasure of reading all the earlier comments, which is always a bonus. I’m less bothered by the men-man issue than by the one raised by Princess V: where indeed does that pesky second R in PISSARRO come from? It can’t just be due to “runs” being plural, can it? Surely that’s a bit of a stretch….
    However I did enjoy PROM and DEBUTANTE and have no problems with back/up/down being used in both across and down clues. Thanks to Pan for a fun few hours and to Andrew for the blog.

52. Well I enjoyed it…as I was doing it I thought “the 15^ guys will not like ‘up’ in 27”! 10A I took in the jovial way some have interpreted – if another setter had clued it that way on a non-Monday, when some seem to be looking to pick holes, maybe more would have given the benefit of the doubt … 🙂 I was held up at the end by 6 and 15 both new to me but gettable.

    As an aside, I have lots of guardian reading friends who only tackle the cryptic on a Monday. I’d go as far as to suggest that that may be the case for the majority of ‘physical copy’ readers. If anything I’d argue we should have more puzzles of this level of difficulty rather than fewer…just my tuppence-worth….

53. [Idle islander @48. What “9 in the bottom right corner ….?”]

54. Easy and enjoyable solve, although really I didn’t like cluing in “Doctor” for “dr” and “conservative for “con”…

55. SPanza @50

    I have been terribly hurt by some of the comments on here. Words cannot express the terribilitude.

    But I shall take with me your mention of Spem Alium, which prompted me to listen to it. And for that I thank you.

    🙂 I would rather use more emoticons as text does  not of itself convey emotion as well as face-to-face conversations. But there are those on here who deprecate such use as showing an inability to convey emotions via language….

56. Dear me,it’s only a crossword which we’ve all managed to complete so it can’t be as bad as some of the posts would suggest! I quite liked it. I liked LOLLARD.
    Thanks Pan.

57. A crossword is more art than science hence I expect “poetic license” from time to time. I liked PROVENDER despite the “misspelling” of vendor. I guess the concise clues with no wasted words amuse me the most. Thanks Pan and Andrew.

58. Hovis@17, Whiteking@19 and others. Yes, I should have read the clue more carefully than the blog. I withdraw my complaint about MANGROVE.

59. I got quite stuck in the NE before eventually guessing and looking up LOLLARD, which unlocked things.
    The plural problem in 10 bothered me a bit too. The rather nice “fellow expert” bit could be retained with say “Threat posed by more than one fellow expert”. I misspelt PROVENDER as a result of the vendor issue. Otherwise, no quibbles. I liked MISCREANT and NOSEJOB (probably should be 2 words). I think 20 might have used the alternative meaning of tall with “ City with incredible watering hole”.
    Decent Monday workout. Thanks, Pan and Andrew

60. Has anyone, seriously, ever failed to get a clue with a “reverse bit” because it was clued as up in an across clue or backwards in a down clue? It’s a convention that serves no purpose.

61. You’ll have to resign from the Pedants’ Club, gladys!

62. gladys@60: It serves the purpose of indicating that the reversal exists, and is part of fair clueing. In an Alphabetical Jigsaw puzzle, it is usually crucial to completion. Getting it wrong is like playing a bum note in a familiar tune – it grates. In no sense is TUBE in 27 ‘up’. You need not mean what you say, but you must say what you mean.
    Thanks to Pan nevertheless, and to Andrew for the blog.

63. It serves the purpose of having the clue written in English. No other purpose is necessary.

64. Mostly a write-in, but with some queries, debated in depth above, about the mechanics of some clues. A nice round-off to the day, anyway, when I finally got around to having a look at it (though by now it’s actually tomorrow, so to speak).

65. PeterAspinwall@56:

    annoyingly, I thought I’d completed it, but casting around for a ‘master’ in 6d, I went for BARD. BALLARD sounds like a 14th-century reformer to me anyway. . .

66. Thank you Andrew for telling me I should have been able to write this one in. I must be really thick to have struggled with some clues

67. Could the OIT in adroit be Optical Imaging Technology? Shouldn’t the parsing for 25ac be a reversal of it in anagram of notes following the j?

68. I guess no one else put CONSORT for 17d? It fits the wordplay just as well. The definition doesn’t fit all that well, but I managed to convince myself it could work until the crossers talked me out of it.

     

69. Re. \’vendor\’ v. \’vender\’.  In Nicholas Nickleby, chapter IV, paragraph 2, Dickens uses \’vender\’, so neither an Americanism nor a misspelling.

70. Why does it put slashes in everytime I use an apostrophe?

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