Lots of fun clues and nice surfaces, and quite difficult in places. Favourites were 1ac, 9ac, 16ac, 19ac, 25ac, 6dn, 8dn, and 23dn. Many thanks to Nutmeg for the puzzle
| ACROSS | ||
| 1 | PRESS-GANGED | Forced to serve jam and egg crackers (5-6) |
| PRESS=”jam”; plus anagram/”crackers” of (and egg)* | ||
| 9 | OUTFLOW | Stream barred return of predatory beast (7) |
| OUT=excluded=”barred” + reversal/”return” of WOLF=”predatory beast” | ||
| 10 | ARABICA | Artist and writer among group trying not to drink coffee, potentially (7) |
| definition: a type of coffee plant/bean RA (Royal Academician, “Artist”) + BIC=pen=”writer”; all inside AA (Alcoholics Anonymous, “group trying not to drink”) |
||
| 11 | UNIT TRUST | Corps put faith in security (4,5) |
| definition: a type of investment fund or financial “security” UNIT=”Corps” + TRUST=”faith” |
||
| 12 | FLEET | False teeth regularly scrubbed fast (5) |
| regular letters removed/”scrubbed” from “F[a]L[s]E [t]E[e]T[h]” | ||
| 13 | ERGO | Queen to withdraw for this reason? (4) |
| ER (Elizabeth Regina, “Queen) + GO=”withdraw” | ||
| 14 | STAR-STRUCK | Highly awed seamen ran into harbours (4-6) |
| TARS=”seamen” harboured inside STRUCK=”ran into” | ||
| 16 | DOODLEBUGS | Rough sketches outlining germ warfare devices of 1940s (10) |
| definition: a type of bomb in WWII DOODLES=”Rough sketches” around BUG=”germ” |
||
| 19 | STAB | Go out to lunch when retired (4) |
| definition: as in ‘have a go/stab/try at something’ BATS=crazy=idiomatic meaning of “out to lunch” reversed/”retired” |
||
| 21 | CHEAT | Maybe sharper children worry (5) |
| definition: a card sharper is a type of cheat CH (children) + EAT=upset=”worry” |
||
| 22 | STOCKIEST | Most brawny supplier in business grabs last of range (9) |
| STOCKIST=”supplier in business” around last of [rang]E | ||
| 24 | ECHELON | False clone claiming ambassador’s rank (7) |
| anagram/”False” of (clone)*; around HE (His/Her Excellency, “ambassador”) | ||
| 25 | BANDANA | Fancy tie? Here’s one in hand for Democrat to wear (7) |
| a BANANA can be called one ‘finger’ from a “hand”/bunch; around D (Democrat) | ||
| 26 | READING GAOL | Inmate welcoming Oscar back after recital here? (7,4) |
| Oscar Wilde was incarcerated in Reading Gaol LAG=”Inmate” around O (Oscar in the phonetic alphabet), reversed/”back”; and after READING=”recital” |
||
| DOWN | ||
| 1 | PUTTING TOGETHER | Assembling, as partners may be, on green? (7,8) |
| golf partners might be making putts together on the green | ||
| 2 | ECLAT | Brilliant display mounted in oriental centre (5) |
| reversed/”mounted” and inside [orien]TAL CE[ntre] | ||
| 3 | SAWDUST | Handyman’s powder spotted above shower (7) |
| SAW=”spotted” + DUST=sprinkle=”shower” | ||
| 4 | ADAPTER | Leaders in acoustics designed more suitable connector (7) |
| leading letters of A[coustics] D[esigned] + APTER=”more suitable” | ||
| 5 | GRAFFITI | Unauthorised artwork revolutionary provided in strongly Labour newspaper (8) |
| reversal/”revolutionary” of IF=”provided” in GRAFT=”strongly Labour”; plus I=”newspaper” | ||
| 6 | DRIVEN UP THE WALL | Made mad excursion, when put off by everyone (6,2,3,4) |
| DRIVE=”excursion” + anagram/”off” of (when put)* + ALL=”everyone” | ||
| 7 | VOLUME | Mass publication (6) |
| double definition | ||
| 8 | BARTOK | Note-writer‘s favourable report on Simpson Jr? (6) |
| definition: Béla Bartók the Hungarian composer/”Note-writer” BART [is] OK would be a favourable report on “Simpson Jr” from The Simpsons |
||
| 15 | FLOTILLA | Case for money secured by First Lord of Admiralty primarily for small 12 (8) |
| definition: a small FLEET TILL=”Case for money”; inside F[irst] L[ord] O[f] A[dmiralty] |
||
| 16 | DOCKET | Invoice in pouch-like holder, with penny change (6) |
| POCKET=”pouch-like holder”, with P for “penny” changing to D for denarius=former abbreviation for “penny” | ||
| 17 | BASENJI | Dog‘s home supported by judge in Ulster (7) |
| BASE=”home” + J (judge) inside NI (Northern Ireland, “Ulster”) | ||
| 18 | GROWBAG | Portable bed intended for nursery? (7) |
| cryptic definition, referring to a nursery where plants are grown – a growbag is a portable tray/bed for plants | ||
| 20 | BETRAY | Risk taken by fish shop (6) |
| definition: “shop” is a verb meaning to inform on someone BET=”Risk taken” + RAY=”fish” |
||
| 23 | KINDA | Family lawyer of sorts? (5) |
| KIN=”Family” + DA (District Attorney, “lawyer”) | ||
Loadsa fun. Couldn’t parse STAR-STRUCK, but I suppose ‘into’ is doing double duty. Favourites were DOODLEBUGS, BANDANA and the wonderful READING GAOL (brilliant!). Many thanks to Nutmeg and manehi.
Thanks Nutmeg and manehi
Another good puzzle from Nutmeg. Favourites were READING GAOL and BARTOK. I didn’t parse GRAFFITI, and wasn’t convinced by “shower” = DUST.
BUT – sorry, as a scientist I can’t accept VOLUME being defined as mass. If it’s intended as a colloquial meaning, then some further indication is needed.
Well, I enjoyed that. Test Match Special on the radio whilst doing a lovely puzzle. I particularly enjoyed READING GAOL, DOODLEBUGS, BETRAY and BARTOK, although I thought that ‘note-writer’ referred to someone who regularly comments here.
Thanks to Nutmeg and Manehi
Absolutely loved this. Very much a two halves experience, grinding to a halt and needing the second cup of coffee which enabled me to see the lovely PRESS GANGED from which everything else dropped. Always a feelgood day when I can get through something like a Nutmeg without any assistance – though I did have to check the dog exists on Google, which it does, thank Goodness. It’s with some trepidation one enters NJI at the end of an unknown word.
I agree with drofle – READING GAOL is a peach – and I also had ticks for STAR STRUCK, DOCKET, BARTOK (someone I know will be pleased when they get to this), SAWDUST for the outrageous definition, BANDANA for the hand device and GRAFFITI for the clever construction. DOODLEBUGS is V good.
Thanks Nutmeg and manehi. ECLAT indeed.
I suspected that quite a volume of people would be making a mass of complaints about 7d. Or vice versa. The fact that one specific meaning of a definition doesn’t equate to one specific meaning of the answer does NOT invalidate a more general equivalence between the two.
Typically classy Nutmeg – maybe from the easier end of her spectrum?
LOI was DOCKET and I’m not convinced by DOCKET=INVOICE but I guess a degree of cryptic licence is okay
Loved ECHELON and how CLONE* gave you most of the 7 letter rank COLONEL so wasn’t sure in which direction I was being misdirected
Cheers all
Yes, I enjoyed this puzzle, and was grateful to manehi for filling in the two I couldn’t parse.
But I’m with muffin @2 about volume = mass. The answer to the clue as it stands is surely MISSAL, until you get the crossers and realise that the good old English disease of “oh, that’s to do with sciency stuff or mathsy stuff, we don’t need to worry about that, chaps, arf, arf” is alive and well.
(Sorry about the grump. Just been reading articles in the paper about The Benefits of Brexit, aka The Triumph of the Ignorant Led By The Classicists, and we’re only a fortnight into it…)
When I saw the crossers for 26A I thought “Is the last word going to be jAiL or gAoL” I put my trust in Nutmeg and was rewarded: what a lovely clue, working on many layers!
Some cracking misdirection in this one – I found it quite the challenge, particularly the likes of BETRAY and CHEAT, because Nutmeg always demands a very precise reading.
BARTOK and ARABICA raised a smile, and READING GAOL is a delight.
What’s the matter with MASS=VOLUME?
Usual neatness from the spice lady with a bit of dissonance. Brawny for me is more sinewy than thickset, tho most of the synonyms in my Collins agree with the latter. And yes the volume/mass pair, and then the dust/shower pair; in the art of oblique-but-viable synonymy, Nutmeg would be up there. The dog was a nho but do-able, and Reading Gaol was resonant..similar setup must have pre-curred, surely? Enjoyable, thanks both.
Agree with almost all the earlier comments. READING GAOL was probably the easiest clue I’ve seen in yonks but beautifully crafted. As noted by Boffo @9, some fab misdirections. I thought STARSTRUCK was superb (Puck did this to me on Tuesday). BASENJI was new. Ta Nutmeg & manehi
I have to confess I didn’t know the meaning of ECLAT but knew the word from this 70s Lotus
So a mis-spent youth reading car magazines finally paid dividends 🙂
Thanks manehi, after a false dawn as PRESS GANGED flew into place I agree that some of these were very tricky to solve (and parse, such as GRAFFITI) and thanks for setting out HAND=BUNCH which I need to remember. In 11A I think TRUST = put faith in (ie as a verb) rather than just faith as currently shown – I was initially misled into trying an insertion here.
Muffin@2 I see what you mean with DUST but given the solution contains the ‘class’ of which it is a subset then I think Nutmeg did well to provide an alternative meaning of DUST which also fits the surface. Fully agree about VOLUME though! (I realise that one might say volume or mass of some uncountable quantity interchangeably but I can’t get away from the classic scientific meanings of each word to feel happy with that.)
One of my own pet hates is “mounted” as a reverse inclusion indicator so that one took me a while.
But plenty more hit the spot and as for many here READING GAOL is my favourite of those, thanks Nutmeg.
Favourites: BETRAY, DRIVEN UP THE WALL, CHEAT (loi)
New: out to lunch = bats / crazy, DOODLEBUGS, GROWBAG
Did not parse GRAFFITI – never woud have guessed that I=”newspaper”
All my problems were in the bottom half, although I had winced at VOLUME for Mass. I tried hard with CONCERT HALL at 26a being encouraged by inmate = CON and the final L. I didn’t expect to find KINDA in the dictionary and I had to look up the dog breed. Thanks manehi for sorting out some parsings and to Nutmeg
Chewed over ARABICA for a while, not familiar with that. And the last two in were the interlocking STAB and BETRAY. Thought READING GAOL was clever once I realised it was that spelling, and not JAIL. Bit confused with the definitions of Mass and Volume, though…
[By the way, my name and email are never saved even though I tick the box. This didn’t used to be the case; it happened a few moths ago. I’m using a Samsung Android tablet. I haven’t tried it on my Windows laptop.]
Finished very early but had to divert to a piano lesson before the blog was up but this was an utter delight!
Like PostMark, this was a) very easy to start and b) very difficult to finsh! FOI was PRESS GANG thanks in part to the “trending” of a Scottish postie and his Sea Shanties https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1rGtgCWQQ3JFG900Jtfhq8f/why-are-sea-shanties-trending-on-social-media
DNK BASENJI – not being a pet person at all.
bodycheeth @13: Main moons ago I went on a school trip to Norwich where we a) went round the cathedral, b) visited the Colman’s mustard factory and c) sat in a bright yellow Lotus Eclat Esprit. Two of those things were boring – the third was the Lotus.
Nice to see my namesake pop-up – think I’ll go and play the “Six Dances in Bulgarian Rhythm” (badly unlike György Sándor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Chd8jilOC9c)
Thanks to Nutmeg and Manehi
I too winced at VOLUME=mass (I even thought of MISSAL). Regarding DOCKET, Chambers has 6 definitions for the word, none of which are “invoice”. I also pursed my lips at NI=Ulster (not the same thing as many people from where I live will tell you). Despite these quibbles, I thought this a very good effort which I mostly enjoyed.
Our physics teacher at school had a triangle with V on top and M and D on the bottom. You had to cover up the one you wanted. So, if you wanted to find the Mass, it was Volume divided by Density. And so on. So I’m firmly in the ‘Volume is not Mass’ camp.
I was disappointed to see KINDA, even though it may be in the dictionary.
I guessed STAB from the crossers, it being my LOI. Still don’t understand it, though.
I dislike clues like GROWBACK, where there isn’t any wordplay. Not saying they aren’t fair or acceptable, just don’t like them personally.
An entertaining puzzle, though.
Thanks to Nutmeg and to Manehi.
Lovely puzzle which I managed to solve quickly – I was pleased to spot STAB almost immediately as this could easily have been one of those fiendish four letter words that get left to the end.
Some wonderfully disguised definitions (Nutmeg and Vlad are particularly good at these) and the place of Wilde abandon was a fantastic clue.
This scientist had no issue with 7dn, as both words are commonly used to mean ‘a large quantity’, but I’m not surprised it generated a volume/mass of correspondence
Ronald @17-I wouldnt fancy chewing Arabica.
I always enjoy Nutmeg’s puzzle-like her other female Graun setter,Arachne, her surfaces are impeccable.
I commented on the Graun thread that I liked BARTOK (8) in both senses and someone replied 8!=40,320
I thought WTF and 8 divided by 40320 is 1/5040 and 8x 5 =40 but I cant see why it was posted. Am i stupid?
I dont do sudokas or whatever people drink with whisky.
Yes, yes, I concur with most of the approving comments above (READING GAOL excellent, with the Oscar bonus; STAB lovely, GRAFFITI, etc.). Really enjoyed this. Of course within the narrow domain of physics mass ? volume, but in the English language more generally it certainly can be.
Quite a few write-ins (e.g. DOODLEBUGS, from the “rough sketches”, or BARTOK from “Simpson Jr.”, FLOTILLA from “small fleet”) but nicely balanced with some much more challenging clues.
Thanks, Nutmeg, and thanks, manehi.
Oh! The “not equals” symbol didn’t get coded properly, and appeared as a ‘?’. “Of course within the narrow domain of physics mass does not mean the same as volume, but in the English language more generally it certainly can.”
copmus @ 23
if you wrote 8!, i think that means 8 multiplied by every digit less than itself. Which, I am guessing, gives 40 320 ?
Not at all happy with 3d or 7d. “Dust” from “shower” is more than a bit of a stretch, even now our blogger has explained the clue, and VOLUME and mass have nothing to do with one another, so a double definition it ain’t, at least in my opinion (though I see above that some think it can be in general English usage: let’s just say not in mine). A bit grumbly as a result, though there were some good clues in here.
Thanks Anna @26-never heard of that-I did do maths once.
(I did grasp the concept of the square root of minus 1)
I’ll stick to words now.
Julia @16 & Anna @21: I suspect ‘sortof’ may end up joining KINDA one of these days. Along with ‘you know’ and the horrific but ubiquitous ‘like’, they’ve all become pointless interjectors in conversation.
copmus
My pleasure. I loved maths and the sciences at school but I loved languages more. In those days you couldn’t do both in the sixth form. I am hoping a mathematician will tell us how you pronounce the !. I just say ‘eight-exclamation-mark’ but I’m sure that’s not right.
Postmark @29: Yes, you are probably right about sorta alongside kinda.
I have decided that life is too short to continue bemoaning the loss of disinterested to mean anything other than bored.
But I shall never be reconciled to “should of”/”would of”.
Anna @30
You are desribing “factorial 8”. I think the !, if pronounced at all, is pronounced “shriek”, or something like that.
muffin
Ah! Factorial 8. Yes, that does ring a bell, now you mention it.
Many thanks.
Actually, you can have ‘factorial thanks’ – thanks!
Or 8 factorial, some decades ago when I taught it, practice may have changed now.
Pretty similar (ie quicker than usual) pace to yesterday but without the digression around the suburbs of south London that held me up yesterday. Yup, READING GAOL a corker. I thought I knew all the Labour papers, wasn’t familiar with ‘Grafti’, wondered if it was early Russian revolutionary or similar.
As a non-scientist, I have no problem with a mass/volume equivalence in common parlance, as both are largely used as nouns in relation to things that are bigly natured, and as things that are bigly natured are usually well-endowed in both measures the terms are generally interchangeable. My mind is now cluttered with the thought of a scientist gazing upon a spectacular murmuration and thinking whether they are more impressed by the resistance that the starlings offer to a change in their speed or position upon the application of a force than the space in the sky that they take up before daring to comment on the mass of birds before them.
Somewhat re Trailman re graffiti, ‘strongly’ not one of the effs but qualifying labour … tricky.
I can be pedantic with the best of them, but today, even though I studied physics at university, I had no problem with VOLUME=mass. Nor was I bothered by DUST=shower, and, while I think it’s ugly and wouldn’t write it myself, KINDA seems perfectly acceptable as a crossword answer. Like many other commentors, my favourite was READING GAOL. Often Nutmeg’s work, though always meticulous, seems to me rather lacking in flair, but I did enjoy this one.
Thanks Nutmeg and manehi.
Enjoyable morning of crossword and cricket. Some great clues, but “artwork” could be a GRAFFITO – GRAFFITI would be better matched to artworks.
Having got BARTOK I went in search of a Maiden… 😉 Fruitless of course, although I think I caught an echo of Janis Joplin in 25a: “I pulled my harpoon out of my dirty red … ”
Thought there might be quibbles over Ulster = NI, but then came to mass = VOLUME, which KINDA puts it in the shade! I suppose if you’re going to spark a pedants’ revolt, you might as well do it in style. (Btw Anna @21, density = mass over volume, so mass = density x volume. I’m another maths-loving linguist – it’s a pity ‘the system’ didn’t seem to cater for us very well!)
Apart from that the usual classy stuff from Nutmeg – thanks to her and manehi. Double ticks for the party on the putting green, the ‘strongly Labour newspaper’, and the brilliant but sad READING GAOL.
[And a PostScript to PostMark @4: V good, indeed! – though our grandparents may have thought otherwise.)
essexboy
Ah, was it the M on the top of the triangle, then?
copland smith @38 – I also put in graffito as I didn’t parse the ‘I’ newspaper at the end; but I think a singular artwork could be called graffiti (one artwork but lots of scribbles). It’s certainly common parlance. I suspect that most people don’t know the word graffito.
drofle @41
Compare “panino”…
[Nice spot, esssexboy @39. I thought that one might have bombed.]
VW @35: Almost poetic. I’m not used to such flights of fancy from you 😀
Enjoyable puzzle. I take no exception to the linkage of volume and mass as that is sanctioned by the dictionaries in that both words can mean a large quantity. It is of no relevance to the rules for cryptic crossword clues that the words have other non-synonymous meanings. So the clue for 7D is perfectly sound. I do object, however, to UNIT TRUST in 11A being defined by “security”. A unit trust is a collective investment vehicle, and a security is an instrument of debt or, loosely, an investment.
[essexboy @39: There is (thankfully) only one of me.
PostMark @29 and NeilH @31: I’m with “Grammar Guardian” https://arguseditorial.com on this (based in the town of Shafter, CA – there’s a Paul clue if ever there was one…)
“There is much debate regarding what grammatical or usage error is the most common. One of the mistakes we see most often is the abuse of “would have, could have, and should have” by those who instead write “would of, could of, should of.”
The explanation for this confusion rests with the contraction forms, “would’ve,” “could’ve,” and “should’ve.” People who don’t read much *hear* these common contractions as if they end with “of.” Readers, of course, have seen the two-word phrase countless times and have internalized the correct usage and spelling.
When I see this mistake in a writing task at the start of the school year, I know that the student is a non-reader. To solve this problem, I always suggest avoiding the contraction form and writing out the full two-word phrase.”
Blimey, I’m in Max Curmudgeonly Pedant mode today…]
Dog-breed clues are one of my pet hates, but otherwise a great crossword. I am now wondering if our name-checked contributor is a fan of the Simpsons or even, heaven forfend, Lionel Bart?? I an another Maths and Languages would-be. Factorials come into probability a lot.
essexboy@39 re DOODLEBUGS I can remember my mother describing the awful feeling when you could hear them overhead.
Thanks, manehi.
Tough, but worth the effort. (I started it in the small hours, but gave up. It’s remarkable how much more doable a crossword is after a sleep, a coffee and a walk.)
I liked the “penny change” in DOCKET.
I hesitated over VOLUME (if it meant the same as mass, Archimedes would never have leapt out of his bath), but on reflection I can see that the words can be used figuratively in very similar ways.
As for Ulster, the Guardian style guide is clear …
—
Ulster
Avoid as an alternative term for Northern Ireland, which in fact comprises six of the nine counties of the province of Ulster. The only acceptable use is when it is in the name of an organisation eg a political party or sports team.
—
… but I’m not sure whether the style guide applies to crosswords.
Thanks both,
This was totally spoiled for me by too many approximate synonyms. Mass – volume, unit trust – security, docket- invoice, publication – volume. Just because ignorant people falsely equate terms is not a case for incorporating them in crosswords, despite what some dictionaries may say. I shall be grumpy all afternoon.
Anna @40: yes, I think you’re right about the m on top. Then you would have V = m/D and D = m/V.
Petert @46: I remember those stories too. I think the worst feeling of all was when the sound suddenly stopped.
[shoulda woulda coulda, MB @45 😉 ]
What I liked so much about this puzzle was not the surface readings as a whole – other setters can do just as well – but specifically the number of coherent multi-word concepts introduced in the clue for misdirection. For example, “germ warfare”, “Labour newspaper”, “fish shop”, “drink coffee”, “ambassador’s rank” amongst others.
I too initially reacted negatively to mass=volume but I understand the other side to the argument too. What I think in the end is most disquieting to a solver is not knowing whether Nutmeg thought they were the same technically (KINDA like thinking mass=weight, but worse), or was aware of the difference but was using the common parlance. If it was the latter case, sticking in a qualifier might have helped.
Tyngewick @48 I don’t think there’s any need to start insulting people. Many words have multiple meanings and if the setter chooses to use a pair that coincide then that is their prerogative. At the end of the day it’s a cryptic crossword not a science exam
“Dust” for “shower” sat fine with me due to the fact that I’d made a chocolate souffle for pudding on Tuesday.
I’d normally “dust” it with icing sugar, but the lovely Nigella L. (never knowingly understated) advocated “showering” it with the same.
Mr SR has just pointed out that “kinda” might have come more quickly to mind if I’d been using a Jamie O. cookbook…
Thanks Nutmeg and Manehi. A very enjoyable crossword. Mass/volume no problem for me but I’m no scientist. Did wonder about shower/dust but decided it was ok – a shower/dusting of snow? I guess a shower is wetter. Couldn’t equate sharper to cheat though. A card sharp is the expression that I know.
PS Meant to say that both Mr SR and I come from scientific backgrounds but had no problem with “mass” = “volume” in non-scientific conversations.
Although Mr SR had predicted comments.
Should have also said that we loved this puzzle; right up our street. Also many thanks to manehi.
[Hello to my fellow mathematicians. My A levels were double maths, physics and French – either ‘the system’ has grown more flexible or I was lucky in my choice of sixth form]
I’ve no problem with GRAFFITI – I’ve never heard ‘graffito’ used to describe the unauthorised spray painting which appears buildings(which may, or may not be considered ‘artwork’).
Another scientist who doesn’t mind volume = MASS: ‘the volume/mass of material we receive each day is huge.’ After all, this is a crossword, not a scientific paper.
I thought this was another great Nutmeg crossword. As well as the generally praised READING GAOL, I particularly enjoyed OUTFLOW, ARABICA, GRAFFITI, GROWBAG, STAB & BETRAY. So, lots to like!
Thanks Nutmeg and manehi.
Thanks both – as folks are saying another fine crossword Nutmeg’s gotten us into.
I had no idea what a growbag was so looked it up – it is also a portable bed, so this is a dd:
a bag containing potting compost for growing plants such as tomatoes in.
“growbags are great for people who have a small area to plant.”
2.
a type of sleeping bag designed for babies and small children, typically adjustable so as to fit a growing child.
Re DOCKET = INVOICE. As a school leaver in a northern town I worked in several mills/factories/warehouses (remember the days when ‘decent’ jobs were plentiful?). Almost any piece of paper passed between workers was called a docket, or so it seemed to me.
Thanks Nutmeg, super crossword. I came unstuck in the SE corner, having been lulled into thinking that this would be easy.
Not too worried about the stretched synonyms. I got them so they must be pretty obvious.
A few words I did not know. The coffee plant and the dog to name two.
I am certainly getting better at this, famous last words before a Paul disaster tomorrow, no doubt.
Thanks Manehi for filling a few gaps.
Tyngewick@48 : Bit harsh to label someone who equates volume and mass as ignorant.
[Hoofit @60: I don’t know how often you pop back after posting but hope you saw and enjoyed what you started yesterday…]
[Katherine @56: And another… Maths, Physic, Music at A and various enigneeringy stuff after that.]
Muffin @32, Trailman @34: Almost always “8 factorial” – I’ve only heard a few people say “8 Shriek” or “8 Bang” in a maths context.
(BTW, 0! = 1)
Various versions of “bang” are also used for the “!” symbol in computing-speak – for example, the start of an executable Python script starts with “#!/usr/bin/env python”. This line is referred to as the shebang (or sha-bang or some-such), another word we’d better not put in the hands of Paul.
The most poetic of these shebangs must be for a Unix-like shell script running under the bash interpreter. When you’re dictating a script to someone you tell them at the start of the file to type:
“Hash-Bang-Bin-Bash”
Only you say it as quickly and as quietly as you can to annoy them. I’ve done this several times to students cos I is ‘orrible like that.
(“#!/bin/bash” is what I expect to see but rarely do..)
Postmark @62…ooh I will have a butchers…
Thanks to Nutmeg from the Nutmeg State. And thanks to manehi for the helpful guide. Good job both.
MaidenBartok @19 A sea shanty is not any song that happens to be about a ship. It’s a very specific subset of songs that sailors sang, a song used during work as an aid to timing and coordination. Other songs sailors sang for their own entertainment are not shanties, and definitely not land-based ones like “Soon May the Wellerman Come,” in your link. It’s a fine song, but it’s not a shanty.
Never heard of STOCKIST or GROWBAG. Basenji was familiar, though I don’t know that I’d recognize one.
Why is ARABICA “coffee potentially”? isn’t it just coffee?
bodycheetah@10 A cubic foot of hydrogen and a cubic foot of cheese would have the same volume, but not the same mass.
copland smith@38 I had the same singular/plural thought that you did at first, but I think “artwork” can be collective too, as in “there is some nice artwork here.” And the artwork could be one graffito or several graffiti.
Ha, yes, apologies to those who hate how the blog sometimes seems to descend to a series of puns and groany jokes.
I suppose the Dyson mentioned in a couple of posts is a good example of a collective noun.
Well I thought that was hard – I never seem to be on Nutmeg’s wavelength.
Valentine @ 65 I think arabica refers to the coffee beans – so coffee potentially.
Growbags very familiar to all us gardeners thought I tend to use the contents as compost – except when I grow lettuce in one just outside the backdoor in summer.
Thanks to all
Valentine @65
I took ARABICA as referring to the beans, which must be roasted and ground before being made into coffee.
MaidenBartok @63
There’s the “interrobang” too – a sort of combined ? and !
muffin @68: I wasn’t going to mention the “interrobang” as it is a particularly nasty construct…
Valentine @65: Very interesting comment – thank you. “Soon May the Wellerman Come” seems to me to be more of a working song than a shanty then with more in common with Puirt à beul? I wonder when we stopped singing together as we did our communal work and why?
(You’ve forced me to annoy MasterBela and young JuniorBartok by putting Bellowhead’s “Gosport Nancy” on at high volume).
MB & muffin: I thought the interrobang was how James Bond solicited information from the various femmes fatales employed by his opponents?
Very enjoyable. I’m surprised at the quibbles about VOLUME/MASS. I thought of the same usage that that Robi @57 demonstrated, which justifies the clue completely. Isn’t it the case that the scientific meaning of volume was co-opted from the more general language usage as quantity (from the Latin volumen = scroll)?
Love READING GAOL, GROWBAG and DRIVEN UP THE WALL. I wasn’t so keen on STAR-STRUCK where the wordplay uses a synonym of the whole word in the answer. This seems a bit off to me.
Lots of fun. Thanks, Nutmeg and manehi. I needed the blog for GRAFFITI, but it works very well once explained.
@Anna Muffin and Compus
Where I come from the factorial of 8, written as 8! would be pronounced aloud as 8 Bang.
Don’t know if that’s just an oddity of my teachers, maybe.
Wildcat @72: Are you in the US by any chance? My son did 5 years in middle school in the States and in his “Math” classes he used the word “bang.” He also uses “exclamation point” rather than “exclamation mark” still (and the word “gotten” but I’m trying to wean him off that).
As eluded to by PostMark @70 the word “bang” will have many-a-teenager sniggering in the class over ‘ere.
phitonelly @71: are you sure you’re parsing STAR-STRUCK aright? The wordplay element is “seamen ran into harbours” and the definition is “Highly awed” – as you say and rightly, a synonym of the whole word. Or have I misunderstood your concern?
PostMark @74. Thanks for the comment. I think I had what manehi has – it’s seamen = TARS harboured by ran into = STRUCK. What bothers me is that the second element STRUCK is the same as the last word in the answer. Just doesn’t feel right to me, that’s all.
phitonelly @75: Ah, I see your point. Interesting that, parsing it as we clearly all did, I barely noticed the repetition.
[Maidenbartok@69 I’m not sure what you mean by a “working song,” perhaps a song about work? Wellerman is a song about being a sailor — a whaler, actually — but in a highly improbable situation, a song of amusement rather than commentary.
Singing shanties is actually part of the work and only happens during it. Analogous would be waulking songs, which are only sung during the long and tedious task of pounding woolen fabric in shee[‘s urine, or, interestingly, some cowboy songs sung while riding through the herd at night to warn the cattle you’re coming and not startle them into starting a stampede. Chain gangs of prisoners in the American south would sing while cutting brush by the road to synchronize the work and avoid slashing each other. In seafood processing factories where workers had to shuck oysters for hours and hours of a long day, the songs, or “oyster rock,” would give the workers energy and enable them to keep on, as I read in the comments of a field recording once. None of the above are shanties, but they’re all work songs.
Puirt à beul
A true shanty is sung to keep the working sailors pulling or pushing in time with each other. There were various different ones, depending on the task in hand – capstan shanties, halyard shanties etc. The meaning of the term has become blurred, though.
MB @63, how does 0!=1, and what then does 1! = … ?
[Me @78
That reminds me of a quiz question. How many ropes were there on the Cutty Sark?]
me @77 and muffin @78
I forgot to address puirt à beul, mouth music or lilting, as it’s variously called. That’s a set of nonsense syllables, sometimes as part of a song with words and sometimes all by itself, often used as dance music when no instruments were available, found in various cultures, mostly Celtic-influenced, including Appalachian American.
muffin — no ropes. Once connected to the thing it’s supposed to manipulate, a length of rope becomes a line. Rope, mass noun, no plural, was kept on hand to replace lines as needed. That what you had in mind?
Thanks to geof @58 for the enlightenment re GROWBAGs – that makes the clue much better than an ordinary cryptic definition in my eyes.
phitonelly @75 & Mark @76. I think the reason why most of us don’t notice that STRUCK is in the answer and also synonymised in the wordplay is that this is normal crossword construction, is it not? The same thing happens in UNIT TRUST, where TRUST is defined in the clue by ‘put faith in’. In STAR-STRUCK we have ‘ran into’=STRUCK, which is then stretched to S____TRUCK for the insertion of TARS, resulting in a new, but different, STRUCK at the end of the answer. I don’t see anything to get uncomfortable about.
Having done maths and physics at A-level I know the difference between mass and volume, but when solving crossword clues I tend to leave my scientist’s hat at the door, because I know that some words which are very tightly defined in science are also loosely used in the real world. There are already enough distressing things these days that can lead to anxiety, grumpiness and the grinding and gnashing of teeth. I come here for a bit of relaxation. (I’ll pick up my hat at the same time as I get my coat.)
As a physicist, I had an initial negative reaction to VOLUME = MASS, but I got over it. As others have said, the two words have a different meaning in that specific context, but in another context they do mean essentially the same thing, and that’s all we require in a crossword.
“Flower” doesn’t always mean “river”, but as long as it sometimes does, we take it as acceptable. (OK, that’s a bad example, because “flower” never means “river” except in crosswords!)
Valentine @81
Two (or possibly three) – the tow rope, the bell rope, and someone once suggested a third that I can’t remember. Rather than “line”, the other “ropes” on a sailing ship were more specifically named – halyards, shrouds, sheets, warps, etc. though some were “lines”.
hatter @82: agreed. I wasn’t bothered by it for just that reason. It’s a different S-TRUCK – though I can see why it struck phitonelly differently…
Hi sheffield hatter @82. Re: I don’t see anything to get uncomfortable about. As you say, the wordplay for 14 is fine and the surface is good too. I am having difficulty explaining to myself why I’m uncomfortable with the way it all worked out, but I know that I am. It’s something to do with the fact that the separated S…TRUCK piece in the wordplay appears en clair in the final answer anyway and so the wordplay KINDA overcomplicates it! Perhaps it’s only me 🙂 .
Thanks Manehi. Enjoyable crossword. Did not parse GRAFFITI. Agree with Valentine@65 that artwork can be a collective noun so no need to think of graffito. Had to look up BASENJI. As did many others loved READING GAOL. Briefly thought “but mass and volume aren’t the same thing” – the discussion re this predictable but I do agree that in common usage they are interchangeable. Thanks to Nutmg for the fun.
I’d be interested to see if anyone can come up with an expression in which volume could be exchanged for mass and still have nearly the same meaning.
..and, as a couple of us have mentioned, if Nutmeg had wanted a colloquial rather than literal interpretation, the clue needed some further indication – as stated, mass is nothing like volume.
muffin @88. I’d be interested to see if anyone can come up with an expression in which volume could be exchanged for mass and still have nearly the same meaning.
blaise @5. I suspected that quite a volume of people would be making a mass of complaints about 7d.
Robi @57. The volume/mass of material we receive each day is huge.
Exactly, SH – they aren’t equivalent.
“Volume of people” is slightly more nonsensical than “mass of people”, and “volume” of received material and “mass” of received material are quite different ways of measuring it – “mass” being slightly more sensible.
[grantinfreo@79: There is a proof that 0!=1 here
One of those surprises you get when you start fooling around with mathematical toys. It derives from the fact that 0 is excluded from the concept – it’s inclusion would make the entire thing implode so that everything! would be 0 unless you stop at 1 when counting down – but the concept will occur in workings so it has to be addressed. Negative numbers don’t get the ! treatment – apparently it’s just a dead end.
I think 1! is set at 1 by definition, since the manipulation occurring in factorial generation can’t apply.]
muffin: You’ve gone from “nearly the same meaning” to “equivalent”!
blaise @5. I suspected that quite a mass of people would be making a volume of complaints about 7d.
Robi @57. The mass/volume of material we receive each day is huge.
Chambers: mass – a large quantity or number (inf.); volume – a large quantity.
sheffield hatter @82 – some words which are very tightly defined in science are also loosely used in the real world.
Sorry SH – I think words that are tightly defined in science should be used correctly, rather than loosely – can I cite “epicentre” again? That’s my prejudice, of course.
sheffield hatter@: For what it’s worth, I’m chiming in with muffin here but mainly because I don’t think the clue is very good. My acid test is to ask if the clue could be solved “cold” with no crossers – I don’t think mass>volume>publication are sufficiently logical stepping stones for the purpose. Combined with the wishy OUTFLOW and the washy UNIT TRUST (for me anyway) the clue was a fail.
But it all keeps me entertained and occupied so let no-one think that I am ungrateful for all (well, most) efforts.
muffin: Mass and volume are words that have been adopted by science to mean specific things. You can’t take their looser meanings away from them. And the last place you should deny that looseness is in a crossword – a cryptic crossword at that – where the very basis of the game is the slipperiness of the meanings and uses of words. I know you appear to be in the majority, if the responses to this clue are anything to go by, but I truly believe you are wrong. (I do agree with you about epicentre, though.)
Alphalpha: That’s a better argument!
BASENJI is quite common in the Times jumbo, which is my Saturday fix.
SH
Yes, if words can’t be loose, then crosswords would be difficult to write. I just feel irritated when scientific words are misrepresented – and mass and volume couldn’t be much more different! I can just about agree that they can be used colloquially in more or less equivalent places (though I’m not convinced that they could be exactly replaced), but I still think the clue should have indicated the looseness required.
muffin: I can remember in my first year at secondary school being introduced to the scientific concept of mass. It’s a very difficult thing to grasp at that stage, especially as you’re working against the common use of words like massive (big, heavy, sizeable), and being told by your teacher that mass is not the same as weight or volume!
Indeed, SH. If you went to the moon, your mass would be unchanged, but your weight would be about 5/6 less!
muffin, I think you’re doing Nutmeg a disservice describing the mass/volume equivalency as loose. It’s not. It’s in the dictionaries as synonymous, just not in the scientific sense. As I tried to argue in @71, the word comes from Latin volvere (to roll) and I think the general English usage comes from this and predates the scientific meaning. Science has co-opted the meaning and defined it in that context in a particular way, but that doesn’t negate previous usage. If it were a scientific term only, then you might have a case. FWIW, I reckon the meanings in Robi’s example are practically identical.
[Valentine @77&81; Thank you! Very, very informative. Cape Breton is on my list of “go-to” places specifically to hear the music. Veering wildly off-tanget their use of podorythmie is fascinating and I suspect also originates from not having any instruments to accompany oneself.]
Thanks Nutmeg and manehi, I slowed near the finish as I had MAFIA for the ‘kind of family lawyer’ for a while.
Somehow in early computing I picked up the name ‘pling’ for ! – it’s in Chambers so I’m pleased to see I didn’t imagine it 🙂
[grantinfreo @79: Here goes (long time since I taught this…)
A factorial is defined as x! = x (x-1) (x-2) ….
You can rewrite this as x! = x (x-1)!
Divide both sides by x to get: (x-1)! = x!/x
I want the left to be 0!, therefore x = 1:
(1-1)! = 1!/1 => 0! = 1
1! ALSO = 1 because x = 2 => (2-1)! = 2!/2
I’ve now incurred the wrath of all the REAL mathematicians out there…]
Mass is often confused with weight, but rarely with volume!
Ta Alphalpha and MaidenBartok…very clear proof.
muffin@84 I think most of the “ropes” you mention are collectively lines, as well as specifically halyards, sheets, etc. I don’t include shrouds (or stays, for that matter) because they’re standing rigging, part of the structure of the ship, and never get hauled on or otherwise manipulated.
[I’m reminded of the interesting explanation we had recently of “money for old rope,” which I’d seen without knowing its origin.]
Late to the show once again, but I was puzzled by Alphalpha’s comment at 95: ‘My acid test is if the clue could be solved “cold” with no crossers.’ So a perfectly clued crossword would require no grid for the solving?
Nice crossword, Nutmeg – I always find yours a difficult challenge, but rewarding in the end, even with a DNF – in this case 17d BASENJI, heretofore unknown to me. Along with everyone else, my COD was 26a READING GAOL, with a second prize to 23d KINDA.
…and on the scientific terminology front, if I received a massive volume of letters, I would probably call it a whole heap of letters.
[cellomanic @111: No-one writes to me any more. In fact, all alphabets are off…]
Thank you to Manehi for the guide, and a big thank you to Nutmeg. For a relative beginner like me this was tricky in parts, but it was a delight when I could finally solve it a whole day later.
I’m sitting firmly on the fence over mass and volume!
But the whole discussion reminds me of Blake’s symmetrical Tyger. This offended my mathematical mind until I discovered that outside the classroom ‘symmetry’ can mean ‘harmonious and beautiful proportion and balance'(thanks Wiki).
I’ve never seen that wider meaning appear in a crossword – I look forward to the discussions when it does : )
BTW I was always taught that 0! was defined to be 1.
The standard definition only provides 1! upwards. But 0! was clearly needed as well. The ‘proofs’ show the value 0! needs to be assigned in order to work with the other factorials.
(If you really want a bit of fun – what should be the value of 0 to the power 0?)
Katherine @114. “If you really want a bit of fun – what should be the value of 0 to the power 0?”
That’s 1 as well!
…though apparently this is disputed, and some say it should undefined.