Guardian 28,584 / Philistine

62 comments on “Guardian 28,584 / Philistine”

1. Thanks mhl. A fun puzzle. I bit of a trap in CHOIR, the clue allows for QUIRE also as the solution imo.
   Interesting that animals that do not live on or in their host can be considered parasites.
   Thanks Philistine.

2. My favourite setter by some distance , and this was a tour de force IMHO. Many thanks Philistine. The blog explained everything perfectly enhancing the overall experience so many thanks also mhl. Not that I entirely agree that it was ‘fairly straightforward’. For me it was however right in my Goldilocks’ zone. Favourite was, like mhl, PAC MAN as it was so beautifully hidden. I also liked TSETSE. Although is the tsetse fly the parasite or the trypanosome it passes into the body. Others with better knowledge that I, will no doubt let us know!

3. Far be it for me to try to quantify the absolute difficulty of this puzzle – that will emerge only after a number of solvers have posted – but I finished it in less time than I did the last two Monday puzzles and Quiptics. This was kind of disappointing since it left me almost 48 hrs to wait for the next G. offering. Nice puzzle, though.

   I had never heard the term TWO-BY-FOUR before I moved to the US, so like mhl was a little surprised by it; it could be merely that as a youth/student I never did any construction that would need one. I was learning Latin, then, though, which I thought helped with EMPTOR, but according to mhl that was unnecessary.

4. I also finished this on Saturday morning (a first for me) and really enjoyed it.

   My favourite was MAELSTROM and also liked TIFFINS (my LOI) EDIFY, SCALE, PAR FOR THE COURSE and of course PAC-MAN

   Thanks Philistine and mhi

5. I found some of this a reasonable work-out. TIFFINS was my LOI because, as I am not British, the ‘chocolate confections’ were unknown to me, at least by that name.

6. I agree with your summation in your preamble, mhl, except that it probably took me longer than others as I found it a challenge, but at the level I like. It was a goodie from Philistine with lots of clues to relish. I liked TWO-BY-FOUR although more often here it’s four-by-two (“as thick as a bit of 4X2, or as thick as two short planks”)! Ticks also for 21a CHOIR, 3d A BIT OFF and 6d NO IFS AND BUTS. Now that I understand the full parse for the bodice ripper at 15d (LIBRETTO) it’s a favourite too. PRECIOSITY – I understand the phrase “She’s being a bit precious”, but hadn’t met the noun, which is a lovely word to keep up my sleeve. Many thnaks to Philistine and mhl.
   Hope all punters are enjoying the York gathering. Wish I could have joined you – one day, maybe!

7. Plank in Merriam-Webster: “A heavy thick board, esp. one 2 to 4 inches thick and at least 8 inches wide”.
   No way a 2×4 would be considered a plank.

8. 19ac “one of them killed Shakespeare’s Cleopatra” is a gimme if you know it and a lookup if you don’t.

   Is 4dn Philistine’s message for his day boss?

   I thought the idea of an “abandoned toilet” in 15dn was amusing, especially with that script stashed there.

   17dn I think a SAMURAI definitely is a swordsman and the “could be” is indicating the anagram.

9. Fun puzzle which I managed to solve quite quickly. There were a couple of solutions that took me a while to parse (10ac and 24ac).

   Favourites: TWO-BY-FOUR, A BIT OFF, NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS, LIBRETTO, SCALE, ANTHRAX, PAR FOR THE COURSE, MAELSTROM.

   New for me: preciosity, SEMTEX, AERATOR.

   Thanks, both.

10. I certainly thought this was at the easier end of the spectrum, but after getting most of the way through it quickly, by my standards (although I always get the spelling of TSETSE wrong, which didn’t help), I was left with a puzzling T-F-I-S for 10ac. I’d ruled out TIFFINS on the grounds that it was nothing to do with chocolate, and it finally took a visit to Google to turn up a set of images of chocolate bars, Clearly I’ve been away from the UK for too long. Other than that, a very nice and enjoyable puzzle. I couldn’t decide if EMPTOR – Latin wordplay giving a Latin answer – was a bit much or really clever (maybe both), but at least I got it. I keep hearing from somewhere someone saying “a piece o’ two b’ four” in a very northern accent, but I can’t think where I get that from; I was surprised to hear it described as a US/Canadian term. I do agree that it really doesn’t match what I’d call a ‘plank’ – not what Eric Sykes and Tommy Cooper were carrying in “The Plank”. anyway.

    Thanks, Philistine, thanks, mol.

11. It was a tad straightforward for a prize but still fun and well clued.

    Thanks Philistine and mhl

    All the chippies and builders’ merchants I know in the UK have always and still refer to materials particularly timber and sheet products like plasterboard, using imperial terms.

    In fact when ordering plaster board you have to specifically ask is that 8 by 4 (feet) or 2400 or 1200 (mm). It’s all generally referred to as 8 by 4 but the two are different sizes which needs to be taken into account when say putting up a stud wall using 2 by 4 (in this case inches) timber. Getting this wrong can prove very costly.

12. Oops. Thanks, mhl, not mol, of course!

13. SPanza@2; I have to admit that Philistine is not my favourite setter – he is my second favourite. (I won’t say anything about my first choice.) Of course, if Arachne were still contributing my rankings might be different.

    This was another gem from this setter, with too many ticks to enumerate. Working on his crosswords always feels like having a congenial conversation with a lover of wordplay.

    I have to admit to a DNF, as neither of the double definitions of 10a TIFFINS were known to me as a North American solver, and there was no wordplay to lead me to an educated guess. But that is not Filistine’s phault, and it only serves to remind me that completion of a puzzle is not a necessary condition to the enjoyment of the engagement.

    Thanks, Philistine and mhl for the delightful diversion.

14. Thanks for the blog, perhaps slightly friendly for a Saturday but the clues were top notch.
    Two by four is quite common in England, as Dan@7 says , more for joists than for planks, also glad to see JinA @6 knows the same saying – as thick as …….
    Agree with Gonzo@1 for CHOIR , it definitely works both ways. Minor quibbles though and lots of favourite clues here. PRECIOSITY for being a new word but clued neatly so you can get it. TSETSE for an original version for once. EDIFY is neat and MAELSTROM is just beautiful .

15. Forgot to say I knew TIFFIN from Sid James in Carry on up the Khyber , but not the chocolate sense and it is not in my Chambers.
    And great to see cellomaniac @13 in my time zone for once.

16. What cellomaniac said, every word (except we’re not co-located).

17. I fully agree with Roz. What joist! Many thanks to Philistine and mhl. Had failed to parse the 13, 14 combo.

18. [ PDM @16 I did see a very late post of yours on sonographs recently, was far too late for a reply but it was very interesting. ]

19. Speaking of time zones. Is anyone thinking of joining 3PM UK time today 30th ….

    http://www.fifteensquared.net/2021/10/28/york-sb-virtually-and-materially/

20. Ta Roz. Another moment of time and space warps. (Am always fascinated by your posts.)

21. Thanks Philistine and mhl, agree this was a fun solve, and I did enjoy PAC-MAN, although EMPTOR was my favourite, for the sheer cheekiness of it (surprised not to see more complaints about the use of Latin though!). Also agree with Roz that it’s nice to see an original clue for TSETSE. And I agree with Gonzo on CHOIR – couldn’t put the answer in confidently until I had a crosser.

    I am in the UK but I’ve never heard of the chocolate confection – but like Roz, I know the other meaning of TIFFIN from the Carry On film (which iirc uses it as an innuendo, suggesting yet another meaning for the word).

    On the other hand, TWO-BY-FOUR is familiar to me and it wouldn’t have occurred to me to question it – the OED says ‘US originally’ but has UK citations going back to before WWII, so it’s hardly a newcomer.

22. KeithS @10 says ““a piece o’ two b’ four” in a very northern accent, but I can’t think where I get that from; I was surprised to hear it described as a US/Canadian term.’

    I know it as “a piece o’ two b’ four”, and I”m Aussie. Maybe it’s a colonial thing. My father was born here but of Irish and English ancestry. My husband, of Irish and Canadian ancestry, calls it a 4b2. However, he’s thrown another element in the mix. He says that when it’s dressed (shaved down) it’s neither, it’s smaller.

23. Good puzzle, Philistine, and thanks for the blog, mhl. Always useful to know that infractus est is anagrind in Latin.

    Some quite easy (I thought “Shakespeare’s” was unnecessary in 19a, even if he invented the idea that was how Cleopatra died), but other parts were challenging enough. PAR FOR THE COURSE ended some thought, and TWO-BY-FOUR certainly required research from me (in the UK).

    Did anyone see the letters in the Guardian about the Saturday prize? On Monday, Nigel Gann (is he one of our bloggers?) asked for the solution to be provided each Monday , and later in the week another suggestion was that the prize be reinstated, by solvers being asked to photo the solution and email it in. Any views?

24. I tried to attach a link, but it did not work. I’ll try again – sorry if it does not come through.
    

25. Thanks mhl as I never fully parsed “PAR…” although think I saw it elsewhere recently which would have helped me get it. Once again my cultural knowledge chimes with Roz and widdersbel although took a while to be confident about the answer since “Any time is Tiffin time” in Sid James’ world. I did wonder about the Tsetse fly as a parasite in itself but wasn’t in a position to look it up so in it went, wikipedia has it so fair enough.

    As one who missed out on the benefits of a classical education I thought EMPTOR was both fair (“fract” in fracture and infraction and even fracking ( from fraction?) is common enough today as is Caveat Emptor as a phrase) and fine, thanks Philistine.

26. [ Roz, re personal time zones, assuming you are in the UK are you an early riser or, like me, a night owl. Here in Ontario, it’s 3 am as I type this. ]

27. There was a lot to enjoy and appreciate both during and after solving this puzzle. I solved PREPARATION and EMOTIONLESS more or less together, and I too noted how they are both formed in the same way. And using Latin in the clue to EMPTOR may well not be in the rule book, but it was appropriate given that it hinted at an answer in Latin, and a familiar one.

    TWO-BY-FOUR was entertaining in its brevity. I know that ‘plank’ as a ‘four-by-two’ (like Julie in Australia @6), and that is just as good an answer to the clue – if only it would fit!

    It was my bad luck that I left SCALE to solve later (despite having S*A*E) but forgot to go back to it.

    An excellent puzzle with many succinct and clever clues.

    Thanks to Philistine and mhl.

28. [ cellomaniac, yes in the UK, early riser, I like to swim in the sea if it ever stops raining. Definitely not a night owl these days. ]

29. Two dozen comments by 8am UK and the big issues are clearly who’s heard of tiffin and when is a plank a plank. With a UK solvers’ advantage for the first and a US edge for the second. Like widdersbel, I’m based in the UK and tiffin as a chocolate or cake rings no bells (but I see it was only invented in 1990 so not as much a part of our traditional afternoon tea experience as rich tea or digestive). Two by four is a bit less of a Thing in the UK these days with so much wood now purchased from DIY sheds where it is wrapped in polythene and normally labelled in millimetres. As Blah says, you’ve probably got to be in the trade to use the Imperial measurements.

    I’m in full agreement with Roz (though that won’t last) on the originality of clueing for TSETSE and I shared with several others a liking for A BIT OFF (toffs, rightly, getting a bit of a bashing by G setters of late). I took longer than I should for NO IFS, ANDS OR BUTS: it’s the first time I recall seeing it with the ‘and’: I’m more familiar with No Ifs or Buts but that’ll be my own lack of a proper education. Despite the unpleasant end result, I really enjoyed the surface and assembly of ANTHRAX which gets my COTD.

    [I know plenty of people keep their paper copy of last week’s prize (apart from Eileen, who regularly recycles it without intending to): it has been suggested before that it become normal practice for the filled grid to appear along with the blogger’s comments to enable those of us who don’t use paper to recall the puzzle when we comment. I know it’s fairly easy to save the grid and re-open it on Saturday morning but, if it were really easy to make the adaption to the blog, would it be a Good Thing?]

    Thanks Philistine and mhl

30. 1d just didn’t work for me – until it did.
    Definitely 4×2 over here. As virtually all Kiwi houses are timber framed its the main building material. Not a plank I’d walk though. Maybe 11 could have been clued as Stud makes eight?
    Overall very enjoyable and satisfying.
    Thanks mhl & Philistine.

31. [Roz @28: Gosh – we are aligned this morning: I, too, have been for an early morning swim. But that was just down the garden to let the chickens out! And I don’t think we’ve had the rain here in the Midlands that you’ve had in the NW. (Actually, as you’re a scientist, I should acknowledge that I appreciate we can’t have the same rain in two places at once, before you point it out to me 😀 )]

32. With NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS, and TSETSE right next to it in the grid clued with ‘but eradicated’, has Philistine missed a trick, as I cannot recall (or find, on a brief run through) any clues with ‘if’ or ‘and’ similarly disposed of.

    I solved 2×4 with no problem, but I like Paul Tutukaka’s suggestion for the slightly iffy definition.

    Thanks to setter and blogger.

33. MrPostMarkI@29 I actually cut my grid out and keep it , our paper bin goes on Tuesdays, but it is nice to have it for the blog. The phrase I use is NO IFS , BUTS OR MAYBES , not seen the AND before but there must be many versions.
    sjshart@23 I did see the letters about prizes, no good to me of course, I would never get the photo developed in time.

34. [Roz @28/PM @31 – Well done you. I was going to go for a swim first thing, but wimped out and decided to stay in bed and tackle today’s Paul over a coffee instead. Usual routine on a Saturday morning is to try to finish the crossword before heading off for parkrun, swimming or not is largely dependent on favourable tides. Today I’ll l have to go for a teatime dip later instead – in the dark! – when the tide comes back in]

35. I prefer it when the more challenging crosswords are midweek, so a more accessible Philistine is fine by me. Did we move from 4 by 2 to 2 by 4 because of the potentially offensive rhyming slang?

36. Roz@33, ANDS does seem an odd qualifier, unless it’s paired with the preceding IFS. Like you I’m more familiar with the added MAYBES.

37. sjshart@23: I think Philistine has probably specified Shakespeare’s Cleopatra to forestall the pedants who would otherwise be busy pointing out (exactly as you say) that the asps were his invention.

38. [ widdersbel’34, very impressive, if your Parkrun was here you could swim at the same time. The rain is meant to stop later , I might actually get to see the sky this evening and tomorrow morning. Been waiting a week , missed the best sightings of Mercury for years. ]

    Paul @ 36 the AND does seem odd. I have seen NO IFS OR BUTS as well but not this version. However these sayings often have many versions so I accept the clue.

39. I’ve always known the phrase as NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS, but only now see that the AND makes no sense whatsoever. Roz’s NO IFS BUTS OR MAYBES is far more logical. Will I change the way I say it? After 73 years, not likely.

40. What Dr. What’s.On @3 said. Pretty much a Quiptic write-in but clever all the same. Another PAC-MAN fan.

    Ta Philistine & mhl

41. For 7d, would he have written ‘Buyer is …. is broken’ if he had been writing in English? We’re forced to hear people saying ‘the problem is is … ‘ etc. every day on the radio and telly, but I’d hope a professional compiler could avoid it.

42. An enjoyable morning solve on Saturday.

    I do like reverse clues, so I rated RATE quite highly. I also particularly liked NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS with its reference to blood transfusions, a nod from Philistine to his day job. It also linked somewhat to the blood-sucking TSETSE fly. NIAOB is in Merriam-Webster, perhaps it’s the more common version over the pond.

    Thanks Philistine and mhl.

43. PS, Merriam-Webster gives ‘no ifs and buts’ as British.

44. Petert@35 That’s my take on the thing.
    In Leeds in my childhood, the term “fourby” was used frequently……not some thing I am particularly proud of now.

45. It’s probably 20 years since I read anything by Edgar Allan Poe but 22 across reminded me of how impressed I was by A Descent into the Maelström, fortunately available online. Powerful stuff…

46. James @41
    Thanks for pointing out that issue with 7d (is…est) – I overlooked it while solving. Just Buyer (not Buyer’s) would have avoided that. I liked the idea behind that way of clueing a Latin word, though.

47. Dan Milton @7

    I’d like to see you explain that to a builder!

48. Something I think nobody has said – TWO-BY-FOURSs are not 2 inches by 4 inches, at least here in the States. More like 1 1/2 by 3 1/2.

49. Dr Whatson @ 48: The dimensions are based on the raw timber. If it’s rough sawn (unprepared) the dimensions are accurate. If it’s planed and dressed the dimensions are reduced accordingly, by about 3-5mm.

    And Blah @ 11: British Gypsum, then a monopoly supplier in the UK, stopped producing 2438×1219 (& 1829×914) plasterboard in the 1980s, so if anyone is in a position to supply genuine 8×4 their stock is very old!

50. Thanks Philistine. I did finish in spite of being a little uncertain of some of the definitions (TIFFIN and TSETSE in particular) so thanks mhl.

51. Thanks Robi@ 42, good to get confirmation, cellomaniac in Canada uses the clue version, Paul in NZ is the same as me so clearly a lot of variety.

52. Thanks Philly for the benevolence which allowed me to celebrate the rare achievement of successive Sat prize puzzle finishes. I enjoyed it a lot. NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS & PAR FOR THE COURSE my top two.

53. Thanks Philistine, that was very user-friendly even though I needed a look-up for PRECIOSITY. I failed at TIFFINS so no “prize”for me but all else went in painlessly with favourites being MARTINI, TWO-BY-FOUR, EDIFY, A BIT OFF, NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS, and PAC-MAN. Thanks mhl for the blog.

54. I came here today and saw someone had blogged the solution. I never do the prize crossword so I tried it and completed it to my surprise. Thanks Philistine for a well crafted crossword which I enjoyed very much and mhl.

    I typed NO IFS AND NO BUTS and realised I was short. I got it next but I’m with Cellomaniac@39: ANDS is odd. I think I know the expression as “no ifs or buts”.

    I think I’ve known tiffin for a while but was reminded on an India trip when airport security were going to confiscate my water and another said “tiffin?” and I nodded and they let me through with my water.

    Lots of favourites, EMPTOR (because I don’t know Latin and could still get it, just as it should be) and MAELSTROM.

55. I remember that a shop near the bus station in Leeds in the early 1950s sold a confection of chocolate and biscuit that the called “tiffin”. What was remarkable was that you didn’t have to use your sweet rationing coupons to buy it. It didn’t last long. Perhaps the authorities got wind of it. I wasn’t too keen on the rest of the clue because somehow the grammar didn’t seem to work and, according to wiki, different forms of meals called “tiffin” were eaten for breakfast and tea so I don’t know the justification for “usually”. I thought the wordplay in 1a and 26a was a bit week but, as usual with Philistine there was more to enjoy than quibble over. Thanks to him and mhl.

56. Simon S@49 there must be a difference between where you live and I do. I just measured a few (finished items) and they are no bigger than 1 1/2 by 3 1/2. Then I found this.

57. Never heard of chocolate TIFFIN but even a “handless” person like me as heard of four by two in GB. (BTW the Irish use handless as a synonym for “not handy”).
    Thanks Philistine and mhl

58. I may be late here but wanted to praise AERATOR and MAELSTROM my last two in. The AE combination in Maelstrom really held me up even with all the crossers. And the surface reading completely hid the ‘conductor’ element from me until placing an ‘L’ helped achieve a PDM. Similar thing’s happened with AeRATor. So even though some answers wrote themselves in , overall this filled my Saturday nicely. Thanks Philistine. Great blog mhl.

59. The chocolate manifestation of Tiffin was new to me. I saw on Google it’s a Scottish thing. I think they are called hedgehogs in Australia

60. Tiffin – the chocolate sort – is delicious, and easy to make.
    http://allrecipes.co.uk/recipe/7451/chocolate-tiffin.aspx

    I just couldn’t get 23d. Skate and Stave both came to mind and were dismissed, but Scale eluded me completely

61. Dr Whatson @ 56

    Thanks. The article confirms that the dimensions are based on the rough sawn timber: it may be that more is taken off in the US when planing (I’m in UK and used to be a builders merchant).

62. Simon S – Good god was it really that long ago? A friend of mine had this problem last year. As we are based in NI it was possibly stock from the south rather than the UK. Also he said stud wall so I assume he was using plasterboard but perhaps he was using ply or something else.

Comments are closed.