Guardian Cryptic 28,724 by Picaroon

84 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 28,724 by Picaroon”

1. Mmm I wasn’t sure how to parse TOODLE OO and still not convinced about the TOO bit. However, good fun

2. …thanks both

3. Courteesy of COIN, even I could see the theme.
   I enjoyed EGOCENTRIC and EARWIG for the “fake shock”.

4. I found this a lot of fun. COIN was foi as it happens, so it became a game of think of a coin, find where it goes. (Well it helped with a few.) BTW “two BITs” in the States is 25 cents, although that kind of bit was never a coin.

   I’ve never seen TOODLE OO in a puzzle, so that was a nice unexpected touch. I also liked fake shock – that took a bit (no pun intended) before the lightbulb went on.

5. Another gem from Picaroon — thanks. Lots of fun solving and finding coins — NEURON, OBIT, EDUCATES, and TURN INTO were among the many good clues. I failed with JOHN O GROATS (and groat) and LOUISE (and Louis) which were all new to me. Thanks manehi for the blog.

6. Sometimes I just wonder how the setters do it – it must be such a challenge to set a crossword where every across word contains something that exemplifies a theme word, in this case, COIN. The latter solution at 11a was my last one in (the opposite of your experience, Dr. WhatsOn), after I had read and re-read the clue trying to make sense of what 1d TURN INTO and 15d TWOPENCE could mean. Then I finally had a PDM when I saw some hidden words like CENT in EGOCENTRIC at 12a and DIME in CONDIMENTS at 18a. Then it was a fun treasure hunt through the other across clues to find all the other coins! I didn’t know FCO for the government office for 9a but no matter, as FRANCO fitted the definition nicely. Well done, Picaroon, and thanks for an excellent blog and the colourful highlighting, manehi.

7. JinA @6: … and then you discover that the same setter’s got an equally brilliant one in the Indy on the same day! I know you don’t tend to do it – it’s freely available at the click of the link top left of this page – once you’ve endured the very brief advert – but, since you’re on his wavelength, you might be on a roll!

   Totally agree with the positive comments already appearing. As Tony S so simply put it, ‘another gem’. I had one incorrect parse – due to a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. I recently encountered the word ‘ganister’ which is a type of stone. Then I encounter 8d. Person sliding involving a probably anagram of boat over stone. You can see how my mind was working… In went TOBOGGANIST – followed by a lot of head-scratching as to why my ‘parsing’ hadn’t worked 😀

   Thanks Picaroon and manehi for the excellent and colourful blog (and for explaining why ECU is a coin as opposed to an accounting unit)

8. Very enjoyable and a great theme. In 3d, “too” was a bit of a stretch. I wasn’t familiar with FCO in 9a. And I’d always thought it was tuppence, which is how it’s pronounced, isn’t it? (But I see twopence is legit.)

9. Another lovely one from Picaroon today. The theme made it interesting but not a huge help as there are so many different coins. 7dn was my favourite today. Fake shock indeed!! Thanks to P and M.

10. Lovely.

    13a tricky – after all, there must be SO MANY (known) Scottish villages with that enumeration!

    Ta, P & m – always appreciated.

11. Took several stares post-solve too see the coins, talk about dense! But yes, an elegant and fun number from the pirate. I’m sure I’ve seen louse around i before; and you’d guess ditto re cygnet/signet … neat though. Much enjoyed, thanks both.

12. Simply the best setter around.
    To be able to combine a theme with super smooth surfaces and not a single poor clue is awe inspiring.
    Thanks all.

13. Absolute tour de force. Getting a theme word into every single across clue without a single obscure word in the grid is a magnificent achievement.
    I think the cluing of TOODLE-OO is a bit of a stretch, but manehi’s parsing makes sense; and that’s the nearest to a criticism of any of the clues.
    Just brilliant.
    Thanks both.

14. I’m hurrying to go out to a meeting but I’ll happily go along with gsolphotog. and NeilH.

    Many thanks, Picaroon and manehi – super puzzle and blog!

15. My understanding is that guns are fired (some sort of ignition is required) but arrows are shot (no application of any type of ignition). Even a a fire-arrow (to set fire to the target) would be shot in terms of how it is delivered and feels a bit of a stretch to say it is fired.

16. FOI was NEURON which allowed me to reverse engineer COIN and then I was on a roll. LOI was NARROW for no good reason (something has to be last).
    Thanks to Picaroon for a very enjoyable puzzle and to manehi for the blog.

17. I usually think “Oh good, Picaroon today” and I wasn’t disappointed. There are so many coins that the theme didn’t help a lot, except to confirm one or two like EGOCENTRIC which I failed to parse, but it was all clever stuff and fun – liked the fake shock.

    It wasn’t obvious to me whether 4d was the baby bird or the seal until I’d got LOUISE. I spent some time trying to make 13a into BOAT O GARTEN instead of the more obvious candidate – I just have ospreys on my mind at the moment.

18. Tough one for me – solved only 6 clues on my first pass but it got a bit easier after that.

    Failed to solve 11ac – I guess I failed to see a theme.

    I did not parse 12ac, 14d.

    Liked TWOPENCE, NARROW, TRUN INTO.

    Thanks, both.

19. As PostMark says @7, his puzzle in today’s independent is equally as brilliant if not more so. Give it a go if you can.

20. I’m with all the supporters here, particularly Julie I’m Oz, what an achievement!

    MOROSE was my pick of the crop for its lovely surface.

    Picaroon always contrives to provide a fun theme which is at once not essential to solving, and doesn’t give the solver the feeling of the manacles rubbing. Bravo!

    Thanks for the fine blog, manehi, needed the parsing of EGOCENTRIC.

21. Just want to join in the chorus of praise: if only we could have a puzzle as good as this every day (sigh).

22. I got stuck in the SE because I convinced myself 24 was “eloped” with the coin reference p for penny. Doh! Enjoyed this very much.

23. A very clever puzzle and a satisfying solve.
    I wasn’t wild about TOODLE OO – but this was more than compensated for, by so many other brilliant clues.
    As earlier commenters have said, the sheer volume of coinage means the theme wasn’t much help, though it was fun spotting them in each solution.
    Thanks to manehi for the blog, and Picaroon for the entertainment.

24. Like others EARWIG was my favourite for the “fake shock”

    Also liked NEURON, EDUCATES, JOHN O GROATS, EGOCENTRIC

    Did not parse TOODLE-OO, TOBOGGANIST, PRE-CUT

    Thanks Picaroon and manehi

25. Very good, I agree – apart from TOODLE-OO, my LOI. It’s one of those phrases that does not have a standard spelling (like howdee-do, which I struggled with for quite a while, trying to make it parse). Tootle-loo? Toodle-loo? etc. Eventually Leo came to my rescue. Even then, the ‘too’ was a stretch as my toffee counterpart says @1. Thanks, Picaroon and manehi.

26. Like Eileen I’m just about to go out, so I’ll just agree with all the other people praising this great crossword.

    Thanks to Picaroon and manehi

27. Thanks manehi, especially for the explaining TOODLE-OO, which I worked out from the definition and crossing letters but couldn’t unravel. I think your parsing is spot on, and the clue is perfectly fair.

    That aside, all fairly plain sailing today and after taking a while to get started it ended up being a surprisingly quick solve, helped by twigging the theme fairly early. Overall, as enjoyable as I am accustomed to expect from my favourite setter. Thanks, Picaroon!

28. That was mint.
    Such a clever construction, I loved all of it. I guess ‘hryvnia’ might have been a bit tricky to include in the wealth of coinage.
    MINUET made me smile.
    Thank you, Picaroon & manehi.

29. Postmark@7 and Hovis@19: on your recommendation I looked at Picaroon’s Indy offering this morning – lovely crossword, horrid app.

30. Spent ages trying to justify TOO=at that. In fact, Chambers gives “moreover” as an informal equivalent to “at that”. So, OK, in it went, but I couldn’t dream up a plausible sentence where one replaces the other, so thanks manehi for your excellent example. And thanks above all to Picaroon for another gem.

31. Pearl’s a singer, and a good one at that. My feeling is that ‘at that’ works fine, whether to magnify (as with Pearl) or to minify (as with manehi’s ‘only one chance’ example) but that ‘too’ sits more comfortably in a magnifying context. Either way, fair clue, great crossword. Picaroon’s a setter, and a fine one at that. Thanks to him and manehi.

32. @ Wayne Blackburn

    Your understanding is wrong. Consult a dictionary.

33. @David – I may be wrong but a quick consultation of the Shorter Oxford didn’t show anything that clearly indicated that I am. Feel free to quote a dictionary reference that clearly states this.

34. Wynsum “mint” I lie it. PostMark@7 It looks like you got the wrong pieces of 8

35. me@34 like it.

36. A double delight from Picaroon and Rodriguez today. I needed 11a to be able to see the COIN(s) which then materialised from the across clues. Thanks for explaining TOODLE OO; I couldn’t work out where all those O’s came from.

    Favourite was EARWIG; fooled yet again by ‘shock’.

    Thanks to Picaroon and manehi

37. Thanks for the blog, a nuclear theme as named by Dr.WhatsOn , cleverly done without affecting the clues too much or (at) that much.
    [If you do the Independent do not forget your contribution to the wealth of Lord Lebedev of Perugia and the Saudis ]

38. Wayne

    Chambers

    Launch ( a missile. )

    Plus any number of colloquial usages as in a footballer firing at goal etc etc etc

    Looking for faults where they aren’t there in a brilliant puzzle is a bizarre approach

39. Very nice, for once being quickly into the theme meant that all the across clues were slightly more vulnerable to attack. Last two in were CYGNET and LOUISE. Getting JOHN O GROATS seemed to pull the whole puzzle together, I thought. Liked SOURED in particular, CONDIMENTS very smoothly clued…

40. Roz@37: I don’t imagine me trying the Indy’s godawful app today will add anything to two-beards’ coffers. In fact his foray into the media probably costs him money and the only benefit to him is political kudos and, of course, his lordshipness.

41. I’m not looking for faults, it’s just a reflection of a touch of archery in my background. Saying fire can mean launch (a missile) doesn’t necessarily mean it applies to all types of missile. Arrows are released or loosed and not fired. I’d also never refer to a footballer firing a shot at goal! We may just have to agree to disagree – I’m afraid you haven’t convinced me.

42. Wayne Robin Hood

    If Chambers says ‘Launch a missile’ they mean just that – any missile.
    I’m without access to SOED at the moment but I’m guessing you’ve misread that too.
    What about ‘firing a question?’

    The idea that it involves ignition is risible.

    Whatever you do don’t admit you were completely wrong though.

43. [Roughtrade@40 do not imagine for one moment that your participation is not being monetised, and it is well known if you wish to find out that the peerage was for the parties in Perugia. ]

44. Petert @34: that deserves a medal. Very nice.

    Roughtrade @29: I am lucky enough to work on a laptop so get considerably less grief than those who use a phone. Too much time and effort has been spent writing to the software providers, the Indy crossword editor etc already and it doesn’t look as if things are improving; indeed, several regular commenters have disappeared from the scene and just don’t do the puzzle any more. I’m glad the puzzle was worth it though I can imagine the inability to see the full grid being particularly annoying today.

45. Why so hostile?

    ‘Fire’ is the method used to shoot a firearm (big clue in the name) and bows predate those. Archers do not use the term as far as I’m aware and it is not appropriate for releasing arrows. Nothing you’ve said has convinced me otherwise so I’m sticking to my guns (pun intended).

    Not sure there’s much point continuing this.

46. What David said
    PostMark@44 I love printing my puzzles out
    And I felt extremely lucky to have two JB puzzles and a Monk in the same day.
    Reason to live
    Thanks all.

47. Just great and the Independent offering is worth the detour.

    (manehi: you may (or may not) want to look at BOBCAT to include the reversal indicator ‘about’)

    (Wayne and David: This discussion of ‘shoot’ might lead to an unpleasant Spoonerism by way of review.)

    Thanks and applause to both.

48. @Alphalpha – I initially thought that re BOBCAT and going to complain that “about” did double duty to reverse BO and clue C… until I realised it was BO+B(C)AT, not B(OB+C)AT

    Great puzzle all round, cheers to Picaroon and manehi both.

    Oh and to add to the pedantry – you loose an arrow, not shoot or fire it 😉

49. A couple of examples from a quick google search.
    From Eye of Osiris: The Shipley Five, by A. B. Shires: “He was grateful that the bow came from his mother when he saw movement in the distance and fired towards it. The bright green arrow zipped through the air …”
    From Shadows Over Sheradan, by Scott Barker: “Despite the darkness, Cerec fired arrow after arrow into the sky and the Forest of Dreams, hoping to stop as many Shadows as he could.”

50. Thanks manehi, after winkling out the answers and eventually parsing them I was left just querying whether the ECU was ever a shiny disc in anyone’s pocket, and you have put that to rest.
    Wayne Blackburn i know what you mean but unfortunately some degree of specialist knowledge in any given topic, leading to a more precise use of vocabulary in that regard that the rest of us ignoramuses manage, is not necessarily a help nor justified by the dictionaries to which we must all on occasion defer. I am sure we have all felt similarly (I still feel the pain of Mass = Volume for example). Rather than pistols at dawn I hope you are able to reach some level of inner peace.
    Thanks for Indy tip PostMark and others, I will print that out later, and thanks Picaroon for yet another high point.
    [blaise@49 I read your second quote as occurring in the Forest of Dean which has clearly got a lot livelier since I last visited!]

51. If I may be excused a bad pun, this puzzle was full of PDMs, or variants thereof.

52. I don’t have a strong opinion on whether or not fire is the “correct” verb with regard to arrows, but out of interest, I had a look in the OED, and came across another definition of fire that I’ve never heard before:

    To cause (a horse) to appear lively by inserting ginger in its rectum

    The things people do for entertainment!

53. Two bits in US currency dates from when the Spanish real was included in coins usable as legal tender, before US money was standardized. The real was divided into eight parts (hence “pieces of eight,” referred to by Long John Silver’s parrot), and each was a “bit.” By extension, a bit was an eighth of a dollar, or 12 1/2 cents, not a coin anybody tried to make. But two of them was 25 cents. Hence “Shave and a haircut, two bits,”

    I hadn’t realized John o’Groats was a village. I’d thought it was a geographic feature, perhaps a headland.

    Thanks Picaroon for a delightful and very impressive puzzle, and manehi for the help.

    I doubt that Mike Pence is Trump’s ally these days after he refused to overturn the electoral count in 2021.

54. @Gazzh – no pistols or otherwise required from my point of view, nor any particular lack of inner peace! I merely expressed an opinion on the use of the word fire. Others can decide for themselves what their view is but if asked to justify my view I will naturally do so.

    @blaise – I know the term does get used nowadays. Most pedantry is probably fighting a losing battle against the evolution of the language. So I’m not surprised in the least that modern references exist that disagree with my view.

55. Widdersbel @52: 😀 But, seriously, isn’t that the origin of the phrase “to ginger up”? Or nay? 😉

56. Valentine@53: it’s disappointing to find that pieces of eight were actually rather low-value coins – the reader’s mind fuelled by pirate tales imagines them as something large, in shiny gold.

57. A good puzzle with a hidden theme. I suppose the quality of it can be gauged by how preposterous or otherwise the down entries are, but here we have no major problems. TOODLE-OO is uncommon you could say, and Collins for example thinks it is, and was TWOPENCE annoying to have in there, as if the across-based theme had leaked into the down clues? Possibly!

58. My only Collins is a French English. I rest my case.

59. Really enjoyable crossword. My last one in, and favourite, was 4D Signet. But lots of others to enjoy. Thank you Picaroon and thanks Manehi for the parsings of 1D, 7D and 20D which escaped me.

60. Valentine@53 – thank you for the fascinating Spanish real / two bits info.
    John O’Groats – 1 silver groat was supposedly the fare charged by Dutch ferryman Jan de Groot for passage to Orkney. However, the small settlement’s name is essentially his name. Even so, the coin itself is derived from ‘groot’ which means ‘great’!

61. Really great fun. I saw the theme pretty much straightaway (well, it was signposted) and that helped immensely.

    Needed the blogger’s help to parse TOODLE OO, which seems right and I have no quibbles with. otherwise it all fell into place nicely.

    Favourites were EGOCENTRIC TOBOGGANIST

    Many thanks to Picaroon and manehi

    PS I wouldn’t get too fired up about such a good puzzle

62. Another fine offering from Picaroon. I got NEURON, FRANCO, COIN early but knowing the theme didn’t help. I did enjoy spotting the coins as I got the across clues. TOODLE OO used to be common, perhaps on TV.

    [Widdersbel@52 – lol. That must mean the practice was sufficiently common to have reached the editors of the OED? The mind boggles!

    DrW@51 – your crowning moment? 😉

    I saw, belatedly, the discussion of the relative difficulty of the Quiptic and noticed that my solve times for yesterday’s excellent Brummie and today’s puzzle were quicker than the Quiptic! I have for a while lowered my expectation that Monday’s puzzles will be solved more quickly than the rest of the week.]

    Thanks both.

63. It’s all gotten a bit fiery here today! For my own little bit of pedantry, as a former employee of the FCO and spending too much time in my early career explaining to outsiders that it was short for the full name of the Foreign (and Commonwealth) Office, and far too many folk believing it was the same as the Home Office, I believe it is now the FCDO – Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office following a merger with DfID. It’s hard to keep up with all the rebranding!

64. Lovely crossword.

    Objecting to arrows being fired from bows because of a lack of combustion would presumably mean the poster has a very odd idea of what happens when people get fired from their jobs. Alan Sugar must seem like a pyromaniac.

    Language moves on. There’s obviously a couple of very correct terms for the release of an arrow from a bow, but firing it is common usage, and railing against that when the same happens in countless other situations throughout the English language seems a little futile.

65. Volante@48: Ooops – my bad; sorry manehi. 😮

66. Thx to Picaroon for a very clever puzzle with the added challenge of thinking through coinage from across the globe. Lots of favourites particularly CONDIMENTS.
    Thx also to manehi for the blog.

67. Widdersbel@52 [thx for a lol moment on reading your entry.]
    “I don’t have a strong opinion on whether or not fire is the “correct” verb with regard to arrows, but out of interest, I had a look in the OED, and came across another definition of fire that I’ve never heard before:

    To cause (a horse) to appear lively by inserting ginger in its rectum

    The things people do for entertainment!”

68. This is one definition of ‘fire’ from the OED: b. transitive. To throw or otherwise physically propel (a projectile), esp. at a person or thing; spec. to shoot (an arrow) from a bow. The example given: Only the watch-towers of the Gateway remain: in these are loop-holes for firing arrows. Anyway, no need to get fired up about this!

    Excellent crossword as others have said.

    Thanks Picaroon and manehi.

69. Wayne B@15: You are absolutely correct. When I was a member of an archery club that was one of the things drummed into us. “Fire” requires ignition, arrows are shot.

70. Thank you for this sublime crossword!

71. David @38 I think the word ‘fire’ is self-explanatory. I agree with Wayne@15, but I certainly wouldn’t mention it on here – for fear of being shot down by other contributors..

72. Thanks Picaroon and Manehi. I began this puzzle late last night, got as far as 11a, reminded myself to look for a coin theme, fell asleep, then woke up this morning and finished the rest having entirely forgotten about the theme. I guess it’s an indication of how brilliant the clueing is that even without having the theme in mind, the wordplay and solutions seemed entirely natural.

    I’m finding it rather difficult to sympathise with the objections to 3d TOODLE-OO, 5d NARROW, and 15d TWOPENCE. That the last of these could be an undesirable leakage from the across clues seems like a particularly bizarre quibble, especially when 11a explicitly relates that particular solution to them. But whatever; I’ll take pleasure in what I consider a flawless puzzle, and if others find fault with it, chacun à son goût (Gallic shrug).

73. Whilst I quiver at the prospect of drawing out the arrow debate and bow to the expertise of the archers in our midst, there is a thing called a fire-arrow which is an arrow with an ignitable head which by implication means the arrow could be fired (in the sense of ignited).

    Thoroughly enjoyed this and even got the theme for once

74. Thanks for the puzzle and hints.
    One of the great benefits of being stupid is that I just do the crossword, and don’t worry if an arrow is fired, projected, launched, or propelled.
    I had no idea about the theme.
    Very enjoyable, as is par these days, within 4 of the winning post, but got no further. They can put that on my tombstone.

75. Couldn’t parse TOODLE OO satisfactorily, struggled to get LOUISE & when I did had no idea where the dosh was & twigged the theme far too late in the solve for it to have actually been of much help. Anyway super puzzle – SOU clever.
    Loved JOHN O GROATS clue – I’d always assumed john in this context to be an Americanism but was surprised to learn the etymology is English.
    Thanks both.

76. Excellent entertainment. And the puzzle was pretty good too!
    Besides, the surface “Contract ultimately broken? One’s shot!” seems overly harsh to me 😉 .
    Thanks, m & P

77. Speaking as an archer, I never fire an arrow. Loose or lose, but never fire. I think I enjoyed reading the comments on the blog nearly as much as doing the actual crossword. Quite delightful.

78. Great crossword, so thanks, Picaroon. I too tried to fit in BOAT O GARTEN, obviously without success. Unlike many others, my LOI was COIN, but then I had the pleasure of looking for the coins in all the other across clues. It took quite a time for me to see the coins in LOUISE and SOURED, even though I knew them!

79. I thought the cluing for TOODLE-OO was great. My problem is that I spelled it “toodle-do” for some embarrassing reason. Influenced by a doo of the cock-a-doodle variety, no doubt.

    I really enjoyed this puzzle even though I failed to get EARWIG (I haven’t encountered it as a verb) and LOUISE (I’m on record as hating random names as answers). Excellent job, Picaroon!

80. ABC would surely have a problem with 5d.

81. It doesn’t matter a damn what archers call it.

    It’s the other 99.999% of the population that matter.

82. [David @various: For what it’s worth I agree with you on the substantive point, but I do think the tone of your comments @32/42/81 comes close to infringing Site Policy 1. People on this site often disagree, but for the most part they manage to do so without insulting each other – and that’s something I really value about 15².]

83. “I shot an arrow into the air,
    It fell to earth, I know not where” (Longfellow, 19th century)

    If the clue for 5d was an arrow from Picaroon’s cruciverbal quiver, I’d venture that he had no idea where it was going to fall.

    Thanks, P & m for the excellent entertainment.

84. Swift of foot was Hiawatha….. also Longfellow
    He could SHOOT an arrow from him..etc etc

    The whole verse is an exercise in projectile theory to find out how swift of foot he was.

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