Guardian Cryptic 28,831 by Chandler

118 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 28,831 by Chandler”

1. Not familiar with Larkin’s work, I confess, but all was gettable from the clues without any specialized knowledge. I had 26 backwards at first which didn’t help me make progress in the SE. Also unfamiliar with the oven or the French Department.

2. Even I couldn’t help to look for the theme words. I had to wait for the WILD OATS crosser before I could insert TROT. SALAMANDER was new for me.
   I enjoyed WINDOWS and ISOLDE.

3. Thanks manehi for the early blog and the two I couldn’t parse. Didn’t know Titus Oates, in WILD OATS and wasn’t familiar with A for ‘about’ in AUTODIDACT.

   Not knowing Larkin’s works there wasn’t that frisson of recognition. For me the fun should be in the solve, not in ticking off elements of the theme, and frankly I didn’t find much satisfaction in the crossword itself.
   Hesitated with the cluing of TOADS. Liked the triple HULL. ISOLDE my FOI brought a smile.

4. The only bit of Larkin I know is the one about, er, parental inadequacy; so, no thematic help, but quite enjoyable ntl. Aubade, which we’ve had before, dawned after a bit of a stare. The amphibious oven/grill thingy likewise. Not sure what the Czechs would think about being Slavs these days. Whitsun, loi, needed the final crosser, h, crusty old heathens being not strong on religious festivals. All good, thanks C and m.

5. … meant to add I’m pretty sure Isolde the dope dealer has been around before, but for reneguer I just followed the recipe but don’t think I’ve seen the word before …

6. I was a colleague of Larkin at Hull University in the 1960s, and saw him most days, though I cannot recall a personal conversation with him. Later, as he became increasingly famous I tried to appreciate his poetry but never could – it came across as bleak and cynical as was his apparent persona. Maybe this flavored my opinion of this puzzle: about two-thirds of the way through, although knowing his poetic works I found it easy, I shrugged and walked away from it, almost a first for me in any Guardian cryptic this century.
   But I’m pleased to see that others may have enjoyed it. For a fair insight into Larkin, you might try the excellent bio by Andrew Motion. I mention this since on the early Guardian blog his name drew a blank for quite a few contributors.

7. Somewhat easier than yesterday’s but still not a trot. I knew nothing of Larkin’s works (apart from grantifeo’s @5 amusing euphemism), but looking them up helped with a few answers.

   Thanks for the explanations manehi, and to Chandler, too

8. I’m reassured to see I’m not the only one here who is not familiar with the life and works of Philip Larkin, though it was interesting to read up on him afterwards and to identify some of the thematic references.

   Lack of knowledge of the theme was no bar to solving and I enjoyed this. I’d come across the ‘portable stove’ sense of SALAMANDER but had to do as instructed by the wordplay to solve RENEGUER. The def for TOMB and especially the double def + wordplay for HULL were my highlights.

   By the way, does anyone know if Chandler is Sleuth (FT) and Hypnos (Indy) in another guise?

   Thanks to Chandler and manehi

9. Renege/renegue is a funny word. The “u” is used to make the “g” hard, but it’s still hard when followed by an “e”, so why bother?

   Being unfamiliar with Larkin’s works (I did at least know he was a poet) I did the following. I completed about half of the puzzle, then read his Wiki page, then completed the puzzle. Some may think this goes against the spirit of the thing, but my thinking is that the challenge here is in figuring out the clues, not in being familiar with a specific branch of knowledge. Thoughts?

10. Quick follow-up to my comment on reneg* above. Yes I know English spelling and pronunciation are not logical, it just seems that here the language is thumbing its nose at its users (more than usual).

11. I thought that I’d parsed all of these, but now realise that I’d dropped 9a and 19d in purely from the crossers. I also didn’t realise that 19d was a thematic clue even after reading the Wikipedia article, but then I know nothing about Larkin apart from the name and his line about ‘parental inadequacy’ as grantinfreo put it.

12. Thanks for an early blog.
    In spite of knowing nothing about Philip Larkin, I did not find this too tricky.
    A few parsings to double-check so in Arnie’s words, I will be back.

13. WILD OATES parsing eluded me, so thanks. I was not familiar with 3d or the stove, but gettable from the clue.
    I had to Google the French Department and check the answer when it came to me.
    Thanks both.

14. Thanks Chandler and manehi. I’ve enjoyed Chandler’s contributions to the Quiptic slot, and I liked this too – a bit chewier than the Quiptics but still very accessible. I saw the note about Larkin but then promptly forgot about it until I got to HULL. I know some of the poems mentioned but I’m far from being an aficionado.

    Slightly struggled with 9a – with the crossing letters T_A_S in place, I just couldn’t see past a different word for “despicable sorts”…

    Favourites for me were WINDOWS, ISOLDE, HULL, TOMB

15. Dr W @9 – I don’t have any strong feelings about the “spirit of the thing”, you solve it however you like, but if your thinking is “that the challenge here is in figuring out the clues”, I’m baffled as to why you would wilfully spoil it for yourself by stopping to look up Larkin poems halfway through. None of the clues make direct reference to his work.

16. ‘Fraid I’m another whose knowledge of Larkin is restricted to a stanza or two so the themed elements meant nothing but it didn’t prevent the solve – though some of the words in the NW were unknown and that did. RENEGUER and AUBADE, intersecting on the U defeated me.

    I had big ticks for MIRAGE, WHITSUN, WINDOWS, SURELY, STIR, SALAMANDER, EVOLVE and TOMB.

    Thanks to Chandler and manehi

17. I may well be missing something, but can anyone tell me what “Scottish” adds in 15 Down? Munro was born in Burma (then British India) to British parents, but seems to have spent most of his short life in England.

18. Re 18 ac: I’d say that widows are people without partners.

19. It may or not be purely coincidental but in rows 7 and 11 the words “sulk” and “vice” appear. He always seemed to be in a bit of one of the first, and had a secret penchant for the other.

20. @Nuntius: fully agree, a very English writer indeed.
    About reneg(u)er, the “u” is in the original French word. I’m sure a well educated Englishman like Saki, or Larkin, would have used the “u”. But that clue completely flummoxed me anyway.

21. Dr W @9: that was pretty much precisely my approach. Then wasted time trying to shoehorn in The North Ship and The Less Deceived.

    The Memsahib’s a fan but I’m not, feeling rather the same as rodshaw @6.

    Not keen on clues such as TROT which require crossers before the tort option can be ruled out.

    Never met A for about before. Is this in Chambers etc?

22. Andy D @ 19: Good spot. Yes, he did, didn’t he.

23. I know nothing about the theme so it was not visible to me.

    Liked MEH, TOMB, WINDOWS.

    I did not parse 9ac (TO+ADS), 13d, 19d, 25d.

    New: SALAMANDER = portable stove.

    Thanks, both.

    Nuntius @17
    When I was googling Saki, there was a reference to his father being Scottish and that Saki considered himself Scottish

24. I enjoyed this and admired its cleverness. I didn’t get all the Larkin references so really appreciated the blog. As well as the famous lines about mum and dad others have mentioned, I was looking out for some reference to Annus Mirabilis: “Sexual intercourse began in 1963”. I also wondered about Scottish in the clue for Saki. Maybe it was because his name was Munro?

25. Thanks Michelle. Our posts crossed and that explains “Scottish “.

26. I’m with Rod Shaw on this one. There seemed to be an awful lot of reversals and subtractions. Several clues felt very familiar – not in a good way. At least the theme was unobtrusive

27. Epeolater@18. A widow is someone whose mate has passed.

28. Well that took me longer than both of yesterday’s combined. Not overly familiar with Larkin, I looked out for ‘mum’, ‘dad’ and the, er, other word but had no luck. I got there in the end though. RENEGUERS required a little applicational assistance. SALAMANDER was a guess from the crossers but never heard of the stove. I’m another one who had TROT the wrong way round for a while. I’m relatively new to cryptics but even I have seen ISOLDE before, maybe even more than once.

    Liked ABNORMALLY, WINDOWS, SURELY and TOMB.

    Cheers both.

29. I also am not familiar with most of PL’s work, but I knew of The Whitsun Weddings (couldn’t quite a word of it), and that he was a librarian in Hull, so the theme helped a bit.
    Thank you manehi for parsing TOADS – I managed to convince myself that To meant Limit. Also not convinced by A = About. If anyone has an example I would appreciate it. And I spent ages trying to find a suitable word ending EUR for 1a (something like Saboteur), until I realised it is one who Renegues. AUBADE is a new word for me, but the BA was indicated (though I tried MA), and dawn is Aurora, and I think I’ve been to Aude, so I got there in the end.

30. I was wondering if there was any connection between Larkin and Saki, and found this Larkin quote, which you could almost say is about going downhill: “Saki says that youth is like hors d’oeuvres: you are so busy thinking of the next courses you don’t notice it. When you’ve had them, you wish you’d had more hors d’oeuvres.”
    Thanks to manehi and Chandler

31. Ooops – quote, not quite

32. Thanks Chandler and manehi
    A new low for me – even when told what the theme was, I didn’t see it! Otherwise quite fun. GinF thinks that ISOLDE has been clued like that before, but it was new to me, and my favourite.

33. I forgot to say that I misread the numbers and tried to fit SHOTGUN (as in wedding) at 16a!

34. Didn’t notice the special instruction, but it didn’t hinder solving the puzzle.

35. Unlike some others here I’m a big fan of Larkin and greatly admire his honesty and the lyrical beauty of much of his poetry. Thanks manehi and Chandler.

36. This has to be a new low in failing to spot themes – I didn’t even notice the special instructions. I’m sorry to say I didn’t enjoy this puzzle. Looking back over the clues I’m nut sure why as there are some clever constructions. Perhaps its just an unfamiliar style thing as I don’t think I’ve come across this setter before.
    Thanks manehi and Chandler.

37. Michelle @23: Thanks. That must be it. I looked at the Wiki entry and there is no mention (as far as I can see) of Scotland, or his self identification as Scottish. It does seem rather odd in that he was ot born there, never lived there, and presumably his mother was not Scottish (?). So all in all, I think the clue would have worked better without Scottish. PS I sometimes see Peter Higgs referred to as a Scot. I believe he had one parent who was Scottish and one who was English, and was born and brought up in England, but has lived and worked most of his life in Scotland. Not sure how he self identifies, but there must surely be more of a case than for Saki (?)

38. As so many have said, not a Larkin fan, mildly put off by TORT/TROT ambiguity, all solved OK and fair enough but not particularly inspiring. Maybe that’s just my personal shortcomings with the theme though!

39. I liked WILD OATS. WHITSUN WEDDINGS and HULL were the only thematic elements I was sure of. Larkin’s correspondence with me was rather dull and repetitive, with an obsession with overdue library books. Douglas Dunn, the Scottish poet, who Larkin brought to Hull, was very generous to us wannabe poets, and a great writer, too.

40. The theme was of no help but I managed all the same, except for AUBADE. Cluing a fairly obscure word with an equally obscure French department was rather unfair I thought. Didn’t parse WILD OATS but I don’t have a problem with it.

41. Most setters would say “This puzzle is to celebrate an anniversary”
    But there are some amusing spoofs on the Graun thread
    My favourite bits.

42. A nicely-clued tribute, although the theme was no help to me.

    I can’t say that I know when A = about is used, but it’s the first in the list of abbreviations given in Chambers, so that’s fine by me.

    I did like WINDOWS for the ‘those with mates passed’, ISOLDE, although Anto had clued it as ‘Legendary lover admitted dealing in drugs’, and TOMB for the ‘place to put stiff’.

    Thanks Chandler and manehi.

43. copmus @41… my favourite comment in the Grauniad blog was “Given how much he looked like Eric Morecambe, 17 down was a shoo-in.”
    The poems were clever

44. Poc@40 I’m sure the residents of the Aube do not feel obscure. The answer was pretty obvious from googling a list of Larkin’s works.

45. @44, perhaps the residents of Aude are even more confused.

46. Perhaps « Despicable sorts » a bit of a harsh definition for « toads »? My neighbour has a large one that lives in a hole in the wall and comes out regularly to hoover up the millipedes. Doesn’t cause any trouble, except she sometimes frightens the children.

47. Some previous ISOLDEs:

    Anto 28,591: “Legendary lover admitted dealing in drugs (6)” (as per Robi @42). At comment 57 on the blog for that puzzle, Eileen mentioned some earlier ones:

    Arachne 26,735: Arachne broke drugs law – she took love potion (6)

    Bonxie 26,613: Drug dealer’s confession to operatic lady (6)

    Picaroon 26,452: Confession of ex-dealer and opera lover? (6)

48. After I saw the “Special Instructions”, I read the entire Wikipedia entry for Philip Larkin before I began trying to solve this puzzle because I knew so little about him, so I had some advantage in a couple of the thematic clues. But I didn’t like the crossword much (sorry Chandler) and I actually don’t think I would have liked Larkin much either (sorry to speak ill of the dead; a writer who seems to have been more latterly embraced by folk in the UK).
    I didn’t solve the last clue left standing: 5a RENEGUER, a totally unfamiliar word, so a new learning today for me. Bottom line: in the end it was a DNF for me.
    Thanks to Chandler for marking the anniversary nevertheless, and to manehi for the explanatory blog.

49. Am a fan of Mr Larkin, but I struggled with this. Didn’t know SALAMANDER as a portable stove, though what else could it be with all the crossers in place. Had Tort and TROT the wrong way round for a while, so that didn’t help with sewing/throwing those WILD OATS in at 19d. Couldn’t see how TOADS parsed, and spelt/spelled (which is it?) RENEGUER with the U and the last E the wrong way round, making AUBADE my last one in. Years ago was very disappointed that you couldn’t just stroll in and see that made famous by PL tomb in Arundel, but had to pay to go into the church and then into the churchyard itself. Maybe things have changed since then…

50. @45 sorry, typo, meant Aude.

51. @40 poc. Aube is not particularly obscure. It has a major town as its capital (Troyes) and makes champagne; anyone driving from Calais to the south of France will pass through it.

52. [So clearly I was with Dr. WhatsOn@9 in terms of consulting Wilipedia]

53. [GRRR WiKipedia!]

54. I enjoyed this and would have rather liked more Larkin, though I’m sorry to see that such an outstanding poet appears to be so little appreciated or even known.

55. …”so life was never better than in nineteen sixty-three, though just too late for me, between the end of the Chatterley ban and the first Beatles LP…” Philip Larkin

56. Sorry poc @40, but being familiar with both AUBADE and the department of the AUDE made 3d easy for me. I failed on WHITSUN, where a familiarity with Larkin would have helped. I liked the obscure references to WEDDINGS (‘events before receptions’) and WI(n)DOWS (‘those with mates passed’), but I thought ‘limit leading’ for the first two letters of TO(p) was a bit of a stretch, though it had to be TOADS once I’d seen what ‘posters’ was meant to indicate.

    Thanks to Chandler and manehi.

57. Love Larkin. Great crossword . Bet he never read The Guardian, tho!

58. Ian Davis @51. Thanks for the info re AUBE. The department of AUDE, on the other hand, is in the south of France – it’s frequently visited by the Tour de France. Principal towns Carcassonne, Limoux and Narbonne; the small town of Tuchan in the Corbières region in the south-east is home to the Cave du Mont Tauch – they make Fitou, a delicious red wine.

    Wiki handily has this heading on the relevant article: “Not to be confused with Aube, the department in Northeastern France.” 🙂

59. Chardonneret@44: Certainly familiarity is in the eye of the beholder, as others have said. However I don’t agree that assuming one will search through Larkin’s works is in itself sufficient justification for the clue.

60. Thank you Chandler for an enjoyable crossword, and thank you manehi for the blog.
    I’m with you, ChrisM @35, Ronald @49, Sarah @54 and MartinD @57. Love Larkin’s poetry. ‘Church Going’ is probably my favourite.

61. I have never been a fan of any form of poetry, but read Aubade after Googling. A wonderful piece of work, and it won’t be the last piece of Larkin’s that I will read. Please give it a try.

62. Didn’t really enjoy this – a lot of the constructions didn’t seem right to me. For example 27a should be “entrance of pub” surely? 23d, SE = almost realise? And a couple of obscure abbreviations: About = A and Note = N

63. Thanks manehi, I didn’t know that OATES, and hit the same speed bumps/knowledge gaps as many others (a couple of link words threw me, too).
    I had to look up French depts to guess 3D but am happy to have learned it is sort-of the opposite of the surely much better known “serenade” – maybe owls have always trumped larks in the creative arts?
    [AndyB@61 agreed – I have enjoyed 2 or 3 previously unread poems of his today.]
    Thanks Chandler for a worthy tribute and fine challenge.

64. Radio 3 used to have an early morning music programme called “Aubade”.

65. Not sure if anyone else has commented but Philip Larkin was a 13d, at least until 8, and taught himself poetry which may explain his style.
    Very fair puzzle which didn’t need much knowledge of PL

66. When I saw the instructions and counted the outer spaces on the grid I was so expecting it to spell the first line of the only Larkin poem I know around the edge. What might have been. Thanks Chandler and manehi.

67. I don’t usually have a whinge about one-letter abbreviations, though I’m not particularly fond of them, but A = About? Really? Robi @42, it’s not in my 2014 Chambers. Yours must be a different edition.
    grantinfreo@4 Why would Czechs not want to be considered Slavs?

    Thanks Chandler and manehi.

68. Crossbar@67, gif@4
    [everybody is different and there are people who somehow appreciate the common ties with other Slavic nations. Most Czechs, however, could not care less or are actually trying to actively downplay such connections as most other Slavic nations are generally viewed as “eastern”, “backwards” and something not to be confused with. (With a slight exception of Slovenia which we think is a cool, developed western nation, like us 🙂

    Most Czechs, I think, will tell you that there is not really much “Slavic” to be proud of in the first place and that we are half Germans (Bohemians)
    We’re in the middle of Europe. We know very well we’re effectively a mix of everyone who crossed the territory of Kingdom of Bohemia that just happens to speak a Western Slavic language. Developing any deeper Slavic sentiment in such conditions would be seriously weird.]
    My family has Czech origins.
    https://www.quora.com/Are-Czechs-proud-about-being-Slavic

69. According to Merriam Webster A is a medical abbreviation for about, I assume in passing on instructions maybe?

70. Thanks for the blog, for once the theme helped me , I got WHITSUN and was looking for WEDDINGS and it soon turned up. WILD OATS and HULL also.
    For TOADS I think we are the same, I thought of it as TOP=LEADING , limit TOP so it does not reach the end so TO.
    Chambers93 has a=about for entry a3 .

71. Thanks Chandler, I enjoyed this without knowing the theme. I had to reveal WHITSUN and AUBADE but everything else slipped in fairly quickly. Thanks manehi for the blog.

72. It was the other way around for me, Roz: after getting WEDDINGS I realised that the church festival must be WHITSUN – but that and the poem about the TOMB were the only Larkin references I recognised – didn’t even remember that it was in ARUNDEL.

    I couldn’t think what the Scottish town might be (and I’ve been there), didn’t know the SALAMANDER and couldn’t work out where the TO of TOADS came from. Chandler’s style is unfamiliar: I liked the wording of the VOCAL/LOCAL switch.

73. I missed the special instruction but it wouldn’t have made any difference. Loved WINDOWS and SURELY. I’m no fan of using the first letter of a word to indicate that letter (unless accompanied by ‘initial’ or ‘leading’ or some other indicator that fits the surface), so am with Crossbar @67 . Didn’t know the French area or Titus Oates (just a vaguely familiar name) so have learned something new today – always glad of that. Toughest Monday and Tuesday in my (still limited) recollection. Thanks Chandler and Manehi.

74. Crossbar @63. Chambers has something like 14 different entries for A or a, including some with diacritics and some with hyphens. The entry for “about”, as Roz says @70, comes under a in lower case with a 3 beside it.

75. Paul @73. You have said mnay times that you don’t like “using the first letter of a word to indicate that letter”. I think your namesake, John Halpern (aka Paul the setter) probably agrees with you, as he often uses constructions like ‘first of asparagus’ or ‘leading amateur’, which to me often come across as clunky and obvious. Using words that have common (or justified by dictionary) abbreviations is a chance for setters to be deceptive by making surfaces smoother. I think cryptic crosswords would be duller without them.

76. sheffieldhatter@74 Silly me, so it does. I think I lost interest after the first one I read which was for A. Must concentrate next time.

77. Larkin was a major poet in the 20th century. I am surprised not just that few contributors are very versed in his works, but also that there seems to be a more general lack of interest. Larkin’s work is accessible: written in plain English and not long, his verse repays reading. For a vignette on his private life you could do worse than read AN Wilson’s article in the latest Oldie, which focuses on the human and humorous side of the man rather than the miserable old git of legend.

78. I wonder if it is a school thing or just our English teachers ? We did quite a bit at school but I can’t remember if Larkin was on the O level or not. GCSE came just after so may have been different. None of our sprogs did any Larkin.
    Gladys@72 I do the clues in order so weddings came along nicely.

79. Sandman @77 – I suggest there is a general lack of interest in poetry now.
    Neither of my sons, intelligent men in their ’30’s have never heard of Philip Larkin.
    The world has moved on and left poetry behind, I would suggest.

80. [Cliveinfrance@68 thanks for the explanation. I wasn’t aware of most of that. Speaking as someone with Slavic roots myself (Polish) I find that a little scary, especially the rather disparaging bit about “eastern” and “backward”. Poles too have also always considered themselves western having opted for Catholicism rather than Orthodoxy, and the Latin rather than Cyrillic alphabet, back in the mists of time. Btw I’m no apologist for Catholicism, or nationalism often disguised as patriotism, or much of the intolerant thinking in the Polish government, or indeed many of the prejudices expressed by some of my relatives.
    There is an ancient Polish legend that claims that the three nations Poland, Czechia and Russia were founded by three brothers Lech, Czech and Rus respectively. Poles were originally known as Lechici. ]

81. I really enjoyed the puzzle for the most part, but failed on Aubade, which required two bits of knowledge I do not have. Whilst I have been to France many times, I’ve never been anywhere near that region, and even though I went to Hull University, I know next to nothing about Larkin or his work. Could have Googled to get the grid fill, I suppose, but I’m not that precious about it. Still, felt like an unfair clue to me – ungettable without at least one of two specific bits of knowledge, neither of which I would consider general knowledge, personally.

82. To follow up, the word “Aubade” was new to me too after 30 years of cryptics, so it’s an obscure word, requiring some fairly specific knowledge. Hadn’t a hope.

83. MarkN @82. I appreciate that it seems obscure to you, but like muffin @64 I knew it from Radio 3’s “early morning music programme called Aubade”. And as I mentioned @58, I knew Aude from visiting that part of France prompted by an interest in the local wine.

    As has been commented before, knowledge is general if you know it, but obscure if you don’t!

84. Should be ‘ever heard’ double-negatives!!

85. Glad to see that my wife and I were not the only ones who were unobservant enough to completely miss the special instructions! *And* we both listened to a R4 programme about Larkin a couple of days ago – and still didn’t spot the them until we came here!

86. HYD@84 don’t you mean – Shouldn’t be ‘never heard’ .

87. Like Moth @29 I also interpreted TO=limit (as in “up to”). RENEGUER and AUBADE were both new to me.
    Thanks manehi and Chandler…

88. Given that ‘aubade’ is fairly well known musically as a piece of morning music, I’m surprised at the consternation it seems to have caused.

89. Simon_S @ 88: I’m 50 years old, and have a passion for words. If I’d heard it before I’m pretty sure I’d remember it. TBH, I’m unaware of the term “morning music” too. I’ve a fairly eclectic taste for music, but it generally starts around 1960. Not sure how many metal, post-punk or alt-rock aubades there are…

90. Road @86 – probably, though I gave up knowing what I meant years ago!

91. Nobody has picked up the inclusion of Autodidact at 13d as connected to the theme, Larkin was taught at home until he was eight and taught himself poetry, going to university to study plays. He was certainly an autodidact

92. CliveInFrance@91 Nobody has picked up the inclusion of Autodidact at 13d as connected to the theme I am sure they did, but like me, didn’t bother commenting on it.

93. If you are going to use a French department in a poet-themed puzzle, then Aude (homophonically) is the one to pick.

94. Ronald @49 – despite the title, the tomb with the funerary statues commemorated in An Arundel Tomb is not in Arundel, nor in a churchyard, but in Chichester Cathedral where (at my last visit) it could be seen for free, with the poem helpfully inscribed alongside.

    If this puzzle and blog inspire anyone to go and dip into Larkin’s work more fully, then Chandler and manehi will have increased the sum of human happiness! Larkin isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but he’s a very fine poet of his sort and – as Sandman@77 says – neither “difficult” nor lengthy (compared with, say, TS Eliot, who is both). Some of those who sample him will find poems that last them a lifetime.

    HIYD@79 – I’m sure that some of the need for poetry (for someone to express what you are thinking or feeling better than you can do it yourself) has predominantly been filled in the last 30 years by poetry set to music (aka songs). But it’s still poetry – literally, Lyric poetry. Poetry metamorphoses; it isn’t permanently superseded.

95. Petert @93 – and how clever of Chandler to compose an AUDE upon an URN 🙂

    MarkN @89: how about aubade to the bone? (A particular favourite of Aubrey fforbes-Hamilton).

    Disappointed to see no one saw the Star Wars theme – but then I had aubade feeling about it.

96. School put me off poetry forever and I knew nothing about Larkin except that he was a librarian in Hull with an unconventional private life so the Special Instruction was of little help. However, the comments above were possibly the most enjoyable and instructive that I have ever read! I found the solve hard and some of the clues a bit verbose and contrived.

97. essexboy @ 95 Two lines from the Keats original “What mad pursuit is this?” “Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard / are sweeter”

98. Sagittarius@94, thanks so much for clarifying that for me! Next time I’m in Chichester, then…

99. MarkN @ 89

    There is a huge range of music before 1960.

    I don’t know much of it, but over the years I’ve learned some of the terminology.

    If I don’t know something I tend to keep quiet about it and learn, rather than display my ignorance.

    You get much further with a closed mouth and open ears / mind than vice versa.

100. MarkN @89 – you want post 1960, eh? What about the Beatles?

     Au-ba-de, au-ba-da…

101. About = A? Pah!

102. Cliveinfrance @68, thanks for your personal input (and sorry it’s 6 hours later … timezones!). As you suggest, peoples, tribes, have forever been trading, invading, intermarrying, mingling cultures and languages. As it happens, one of my cousins is married to Duchan, a Slovenian. Duchan, I believe, is Slavic (!), something to do with ‘soul’. So it goes …

103. Simon S @ 99: I’m aware of the huge range of music before 1960. I have experienced it, much of it does very little for me. I do like a bit of classical music, but it’s not something I listen to on a regular occasion. I like a bit of Mussorgsky and there are some other pieces I absolutely adore – Slavonik Dance Number 7 by Dvorak, for example, I’d just rather listen to Remedy by Puscifer on a daily basis.

     If you’re saying me admitting I don’t know the terms “Aubade” and “morning music” is displaying my ignorance I think you have the problem, rather than me. These are not general knowledge. Absolutely not. I think people who don’t know famous footballers are ignorant (and I’m no longer a football fan), not people who don’t know frankly obscure musical terms.

     You say that if you personally don’t know something you tend to keep quiet and learn, rather than display your ignorance? I bet you don’t. I bet if I asked you questions on videogames (which is one area of expertise for me) you wouldn’t bother learning. You’d keep quiet alright – I’m sure of that. I doubt you’d go away and learn though. And if you tried you’d find the subject was massive. Far beyond what you could hope to research in weeks, or months even. And that would be questions about the biggest entertainment industry on the planet right now. And I’m guessing I’d find you “ignorant”.

     And if it’s not something you care about, why would you? I love music, but I love the music I like (which doesn’t happen to be aubades”), and I know an awful lot of musical terminology, (despite not caring about knowing it) through doing crosswords for over thirty years, but I still have not come across the word “aubade” until today. Ignorance? Really?

     I’m guessing I could probably ask you questions about post-punk music, programming in C#,
     and sci-fi and fantasy literature that you’d have no chance of answering, but you’re calling me ignorant for admitting I’ve never heard the term “Aubade”.

104. Sheffield Hatter @74 thanks for the comment. I am certain that I am in the minority in my general aversion to this device. I hadn’t thought about how it can make for smoother surfaces, which must be the case on reflection. On the other hand, I think that it can encourage a certain laziness in putting together surfaces to shoe-horn in another letter when, for example, an anagram doesn’t work. I would be happy if there was a small number of generally accepted single letter abbreviations so that the setter is a least challenged. Accepting all those available in Chambers seems to me a bit too loose. Anyway, I will stop banging on about it! It doesn’t get in the way of my enjoyment of crosswords, a lockdown discovery, or my admiration for the wit, charm and ingenuity of the setters.

105. sorry, should have been@75

106. AUBADE surely is well known. I might have seen SALAMANDER before but could guess it but not RENEGUER. Pleased to get AUTODIDACT which is rare I’d say. Only HIGH WINDOWS rang bell with me.

     Very enjoy and thanks for the blog too.

107. Essexboy@95. : – ) Saw George Thorogood do that in the vineyards in Oz. Still thumping good.
     Widdersbel@100 LOL
     MarkN@103 I don’t see Simon S’s comment@99 as something to be taken personally. ”You” could substitute ”I” or ”one” in his last sentence. It’s his personal philosophy.
     On the other hand, in your view, I’m ignorant, as I don’t know famous footballers, or a whole lot of things, but like you, I have learned a lot from doing cryptics, including ‘aubade’ from a previous crossword.

108. Considering how many commenters have said they didn’t know AUBADE, I don’t see how it can be said to be fairly well known. I suspect though “nocturne” which is sort of its opposite is probably a lot more familiar.

109. Paul @104 – “I am certain that I am in the minority…” – not such a small minority! – and I think it’s telling that no one has managed to come up with an example of a = ‘about’ being used in their personal experience/real life.

     “I would be happy if there was a small number of generally accepted single letter abbreviations so that the setter is a least challenged. Accepting all those available in Chambers seems to me a bit too loose.” – according to paul b in a discussion earlier this year, the Times and the Telegraph agree with you.

110. Why is this even a problem? If you get stuck on a clue, just think “single letter abbreviation” and see if the clue unravels. It doesn’t require much imagination to work out that “about” could be “a”. Or then much effort to check that it can be.

111. essexboy@109 thanks for the link. That was some discussion! Good points on both sides, but I am happy to stick with Paul B (no relation), The Times and The Telegraph (taking the assertion as true as I have not bothered to look for verification of their rules anywhere) and others in calling for a limit on SLAs. And thanks for this abbreviation; as you can tell from my post I struggled to find a neat encapsulation of the form.

112. For those who don’t know Larkin, try Simon Armitage’s little series currently going out on Radio 4 this week and next (and BBC Sounds of course). For those who don’t like music from before 1960, then I despair!

113. Oh, it was a generalistion. But almost everything I listen to is post-1960.

     Classical is all over the shop. Some great stuff, but an awful lot of meh (that I’m meant to know
     being a crossword fan). I’m aware of the great composers. Doesn’t mean I have to like what they made. I’ll learn this stuff to solve the puzzle – doesn;t make it good or worthwhile. I just have to know it to solve the puzzle.

114. I’m a Larkin fan so couldn’t help looking for the obvious clues. Would have enjoyed ‘jazz’ in some form or another.

115. MarkN@various , I think the point HYD and yourself are making is about younger people. Of course all types of music, and poetry, from all ages can appeal to everyone but from about 1960 music was being made SPECIFICALLY for a younger audience, teenagers had become a commercial market.

116. Roz: that’s a valid point. But you’ve accepted the premise that because MarkN is not interested in music from before 1960, he is unable to solve crossword clues that have answers relating to “older” music. A few days ago there was a crossword with country & western music as a theme. I was able to solve the themed clues for TWITTY, CASH and PARTON despite abominating C&W music. (TWITTY has *never* appeared in a Guardian cryptic before!)

     There are themed puzzles (and I know you abominate them) that I set out to try to solve despite having no prior knowledge. I then (sometimes) find that the wordplay and crossers lead me to solutions that I had no idea that I knew. That’s one of the joys of crosswords.

     I first heard the word AUBADE when I was in my 20s – while listening to Radio 3, as I mentioned before. I had no idea what it meant, so I found out.

     MarkN said that he had been solving cryptics for 30 years and he had no recollection of the word AUBADE. And therefore it was obscure. But AUBADE has, in fact, appeared in Guardian cryptics before – see this list – five times in the last decade or so. I have also come across words that I’d *never* seen before, only to find that I had previously commented on this forum about how obscure those words were – and then immediately forgotten them (again). Doh!

     I prefer to slap my head and move on. [You, of course, never forget anything. 🙂 ]

117. Sheffield Hatter@116 I was merely musing on the fact that maybe there was a step change for young people , Larkin himself said 1963. HYD said his sons have no interest in poetry and perhaps as MarkN said, the music became there poetry instead. It does not mean, of course, that they should have no interest in prior things and they should be willing to learn with crosswords being one avenue.
     I do not actually mind themed crosswords , this one was fine, it is just when the Guardian goes overboard. We recently had eight in a row, they have stopped becoming an occasional novelty. They can also affect the quality of the clues, I often think – Nice Video, shame about the song.

118. Did not manage to parse Wild Oats so thanks for the Titus Oates tip off. I was of course inspired to look him up and thus discover how his career of lying self-agrandisement ended in ignominy. Whilst I cannot condone such barbarity as existed in the 17th Century, I can’t help but be tempted to muse how fitting an end it would be if our current self-agrandising liar-in-chief were to meet a similar fate!
     Judge Jeffreys was the presiding judge at his trial where he was convicted and sentenced for perjury, stripped of clerical dress, imprisoned for life, and to be “whipped through the streets of London five days a year for the remainder of his life.”

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