Guardian Cryptic 29,070 by Matilda

77 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 29,070 by Matilda”

1. I’d never heard of the first definition of PROOF, but managed from the rest if the clue.
   A little bit Quipticish?

2. I thought this was a lot of fun, despite some of the surfaces are being slightly clunky. Bit of a dog/fish theme perhaps . I liked the link between 1d and 22ac, and also PET SHOP BOYS, GUN BATTLE, CHOCOHOLIC, CHAVVY, OOH LA LA , DROP-INS and the clever TURN A PROFIT. Bravo!

   Ta Matilda & manehi.

3. Thanks, Matilda and manehi!
   PROOF
   ‘Double alcohol percentage’ is one def, I think. I see it as a DD.

4. 12% alcohol by volume+24 proof.

5. Sorry = (not +)

6. It took me a while to remember “tup” from the original All Creatures Great And Small. Never heard of CHAVVY — is it uniquely British? Tried hard to work out how theta were old reservists, but now I see that’s another unknown Britishism. And in this neck of the woods chippies are carpenters.

   Couldn’t work out what “easy” was doing in the clue for DOGGED. And I couldn’t parse BOYISH.

7. Thanks KVa – have edited the blog

8. A sparkling puzzle for a sunny morning.

   My ticks were for PET SHOP BOYS, CHOCOHOLIC, AHAB, DROP-INS, POSHEST, COMPILER, OOH LA LA, INSIDER and BOYISH.

   The paper version also has the spelling mistake in 16dn but I hadn’t noticed it.

   Many thanks to Matilda for the fun and manehi for the blog.

9. Quite tough, solved only 5 on my first pass of the clues and slowly struggled to solve the rest of it.

   I could not parse 26ac, 6d, 17d apart from LA = cLAm ‘unshelled’; 20d.

   New for me: CHAVVY = coarse.

   Thanks, both.

10. Good start to the week.

    I liked the rising damp in ON THE UP, the reverse anagram for TURN A PROFIT, OOH LA LA for the shelled clam, and the surface for BOYISH.

    Thanks Matilda and manehi.

11. Had Take instead of TURN at 26ac, and Your instead of ONE’S at 1d, so this held me up for a while. Wasn’t sure about CHAVVY. Nice to have change from Vulcan on a Monday, though I have absolutely nothing against Vulcan as a COMPILER. A change being as good as a rest, as some say…

12. A lovely witty puzzle to start the week. Lots of ticks but I think the clever “Tea before 5 on vacation, very definitely not 4” is my favourite.

    I’m surprised nobody has posted a link to this yet.

    Many thanks Matilda and manehi.

13. Ronald @11 — I think it must be a style guide thing but Guardian setters always use ‘one’ or ‘one’s’ and not ‘you’ or ‘your’ in idiomatic phrases. It took me a while to realise that 🙂

14. RobT@13…I’ll bear that in mind in future, many thanks!

15. Very enjoyable solve. I really enjoy Matilda’s puzzles. I liked a lot of the clues mentioned by others but 18d INSIDER was the one liked most of all. Thanks to Matilda and manehi. [Like some others NHO 16d CHAVVY which I only got from the wordplay then verified via Chambers. Just as with Paris in the the Spring, I didn’t even notice the defnitely typo.] [Great reminder of The Faces’ OOH LA LA (17d) – thanks to Lord Jim@12. Interesting to see Ronnie Wood in that pic of the band …]

16. michelle@9, glad I wasn’t the only one who found Matilda ‘quite tough’, after most of the comments on the Guardian blog seemed to indicate they thought it was on the gentler side. On the other hand Paul’s Prize yesterday flew in for me, whereas others found it more challenging. You never can tell from one day or setter to the next.

    That said, I really enjoyed Matilda, especially the ones I struggled with, eg DOGGED and POSHEST, and CHAVVY which I’d never heard or seen before. A ‘chippy’ around here is slang for a carpenter which held me up. Still not sure about the definition in TURN A PROFIT.

17. Lord Jim @ 12. I thought about Ooh La La by The Faces, the title track of an album of the same name, 50 years and two weeks ago, a no 1 album in the UK. Also thought about posting a Pet Shop Boys track but couldn’t make my mind up which.

    So, instead, here’s a news item from a few months ago, to serve as a British retail outlet primer for our Oz, NZ and N American friends:

    https://youtu.be/qB5Qa57OwIc

    Learned the word CHAVVY from 1my kids in the 90’s. Lots to admire about this puzzle.

    Thank you Matilda and manehi.

18. Entertaining puzzle to brighten up a Monday morning. Favourites as Robi @10.

    I don’t know where Chambers got the idea that CHAVVY implies access to money. ‘Chav’ refers to a young member of the lumpenproletariat and is most definitely derogatory and offensive. Interesting word though, probably from the Romani for ‘boy’.

    More Monday Matildas please!

    Thanks to S&B

19. GDU & pdm

    In the UK too a chippy can be a carpenter, so it’s an extra twist of misdirection.

    Thanks Matilda and manehi

20. …. the JIA@15 that crossed … and I’m reasonably sure Ronnie Wood was the lead singer on that track !

21. A refreshing crossie to start the week. No posh social knowledge or old sayings no one uses these days. One french and one bibbley reference were my only gripes. If we want to get younger people interested in cryptics then this one is a reasonable example of a puzzle that does not rely upon getting educated at a prohibitive fee paying school.

22. Manehi and KVa
    Proof to ABV in the UK is a ratio of 57.06%, in France Proof is equal to ABV, in the USA it is 50%, you need to know where the alcohol was bought and taxed.
    https://www.britannica.com/story/why-is-alcohol-measured-by-proof

23. Flea @ 15 He was

24. For a while I had ‘put one’s nose in it’ – I was thinking too much about the canine part of HUSH PUPPY! Eventually got there since ACT UP couldn’t be anything else. Three* for three today (Everyman, Q and this). Nice way to start the week.

    *Two, I forgot I missed one on the Q

25. Very slow start for a Monday and not Quiptic at all to my mind.

    Typo in 16D was in hard copy too

    Thanks both.

26. Manehi

    The word CHAV “is deeply offensive” and should no longer be permitted as a smokescreen for class hatred. (Owen Jones), whilst Polly Toynbee has compared it to the two most serious racially offensive words. Very surprised that it has been allowed in a Guardian crossword, would the Guardian allow the N or P words?
    Full article https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-13626046

27. Thank you Manehi for some parsings, especially 26A. One of these days I will figure out this “reverse clue” thing.

28. Did anyone else notice that this Cryptic and today’s Quiptic used the same grid? I assume that it is just a weird coincidence, given how many grids are available to setters, but I doubt if it has happened before, although someone may know better…

29. I am amazed that no-one has yet commented on the [mis?]spelling of PROTESTORS – surely it ought to be PROTESTERS? No doubt some obscure dictionary will support it, but I doubt many people use the ‘or’ ending. And though I had heard of the pejorative CHAV, to make it an adjective is a bit steep. Otherwise, a lovely crossie – thanks, Matilda and manehi.

30. Going back to Ronald@11: it’s no surprise not to have Vulcan as compiler this Monday, since he only does alternate weeks – a strict pattern that now goes back for a long time. With generally one of the less familiar setters in non-Vulcan weeks, as today with the excellent Matilda.

31. MikeNz@21. Your assumption that a reasonable level of general knowledge derives from an expensive private education is as unjustified as your suggestion that younger people will find cryptic crosswords more enticing if they don’t require such knowledge. Or perhaps you have the results of several relevant research projects?

32. CliveinFrance@26. Thank you for your post and link to the bbc article. Not being resident of the UK, I didn’t know the word CHAVVY and or in the contexts it is used. However there have been clues which I’ve found offensive, as have others, and which the Guardian Editor has allowed through. The discussion is often shut down by someone saying; This is only a crossword, or expressing views about censorship.

33. CliveinFrance@22
    Thanks for the info. I did not know these details.

34. sheffield hatter@31. As a fellow Antipodean I have some sympathy for MikeNz@21, even though I went to a boarding school followed by University back in the 60’s and 70’s. I think most of MikeNz’s post was positive, about his enjoyment of the puzzle, and his desire for younger solvers to be encouraged. Maybe it was just his sign-off statement that rankled.
    We’re often a bit over the top down here at the bottom of the world. 🙂

35. And BTW the only way I went to boarding school was that I sat a test for a scholarship and got one. And the only way I went to University was that I got another scholarship and we had a Labor (sic) Prime Minister who made University education affordable, even for this butcher’s daughter. (Sorry sh, struck a chord. Things are so different now. Many of us can’t afford accommodation, health care, or education for our young.).

36. pdm@34. I have nothing but admiration for those of you who do the Guardian crossword on the other side of the world. It is inevitable that UK general knowledge will trip you up from time to time, but this seems to be borne with good humour and an understanding that it is after all a UK newspaper. The bit that rankled for me, as you say, is that part of the post @21 that suggests such knowledge can only be acquired through an expensive private education. I am firmly of the opinion that we can gain knowledge in all walks of life simply by observing and absorbing. It’s just a matter of being interested.

37. Hi all,
    hope you find this article as interesting as I did when I was pondering putting that word into this puzzle …
    Thanks for the kind comments.
    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/a-chavs-guide-to-chavs/

38. Was anyone else pumped for a PSB-themed solve and then disappointed? Just me? I suppose it’s alright.

39. Thanks to Matilda and manehi for an enjoyable puzzle and helpful blog.
    Favourites were CHOCOHOLIC, DROP-INS and HUSHPUPPY.
    Interesting exchange about the use of the word CHAVVY!

40. TassieTim
    The Guardian style guide has protester not protestor.
    The or stem is more common in US and where there is a degree of professionalism, financial advisor, not adviser.

41. [Thank you sheffield hatter for your kind words. I agree with your closing sentences.

    And thank you Matilda for dropping in. Who’da thought there was a word, unknown to some of us, which means so much to our friends in the UK? Too much for me to take in. Bed time down here.]

42. I couldn’t care less what Toynbee thinks about CHAVVY, or most other things, for what is a super clue. Thanks for dropping in Matilda with an article, which echoed my own thoughts on the matter.

43. Thanks for looking in Matilda and for the interesting link. No doubt “chav” has been used (wrongly I would suggest) as a term to demonise working class young people generally, but in its origin and more specific use it refers to a particular grouping (like mod or skinhead) with its own style involving sportswear, particular fashion brands and a certain amount of bling (hence the Chambers reference to money).

    More views in these letters to the Guardian!

44. Thanks Matilda – lots of fun. [Thanks for the link to the article on everything ‘Chav’ @37 and like you I see no problem in its use here. Stereotyping and dismissal of the working classes is unforgivable but very different from the use of a term that describes a pattern of social behaviour linked to the use of specific fashion accessories. Should we ban the term ‘Hooray Henry’ too?] Thanks to manehi for the blog and for parsing a couple I could not get – still kicking myself about 25A.

45. I think that the Guardian Style guide best sums it
    Chavs . a term best avoided

46. I don’t often do the Guardian Cryptic but enjoyed today’s crossword. Nobody else seems to have mentioned it, but I did laugh at the bawdy misdirection in 19a. Perhaps it is just me and you are all too polite…

    Thanks to Matilda and Manehi.

47. AlanC @42 (and others) – I do care about the use of chav and chavvy because I have worked with traveller families and know how badly discriminated against they are, so I winced at that clue, and hate it as much as pikey or any other of those insults.

    Travellers – gypsy, Romani, travellers – GRT is the one group that still gets a pass for public vilification (My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding, for example) and brutal discrimination. Having worked with travellers in Dorset, where the gypsies won’t go as it’s a bad county, there was one family that had bought land for their caravan and never got permission to place said caravan on the plot, on a bend of a road, after repeated legal battles. Just one case among hundreds of others, made worse by local councils reneging on the legal requirements to provide land for travellers to use.

    I got very irritated last year following news stories about deaths in custody for different groups: research shows that it’s disproportionately high for black, in particular, Asian and other ethnic minorities. No figures are collected for GRT (although they are in schools), but with a cursory look through the list of names and a bit of digging into stories, the rate of deaths of GRT youth and men in custody is multiply worse than other minority groups.

    Otherwise it was a brilliant puzzle, thank you to Matilda and manehi.

48. [Some interesting sociological discussion today, including that arising from MikeNZ’s post @21, which sounded unfortunately like a comment from someone for whom ‘intellectual’ is as pejorative as ‘chav’ 🙂 ]

49. Before a hush puppy was something to wear it was something to eat. Hush puppies are balls of fried cornmeal better often eaten with seafood. They are common in Southern cooking and are Native American in origin. The name is said to come from the idea of tossing a bit of food to the dogs to quiet them. How they became shoes I couldn’t say.

    Parsing 2d eluded me, I forgot about the TA, and with the final A I popped in “Omega,” which messed up 1a for too long.

    Thanks for parsing INSIDER, manehi, I never thought of cider.

    FS@@38 PSB?

    Enjoyed this, got almost all last night. Thanks to Matilda for setting and dropping in, and to manehifor first aid.

50. MikeNZ @21 – I’ve been spending the last week’s tube trips teaching my daughter cryptic crossword solving – as a way of whiling away the journeys.

51. The myth here in my home town is that ‘Chav’ derives from public school slang. The Ladies College used it as a shortening of “Cheltenham Average”.
    In other words, local men or boys that are just not good enough for the refined young women boarding in the town.

52. Thanks for the blog , a good puzzle in the Monday tradition with lots of neat clues.
    I would prefer not to see CHAVVY in a crossword without some indication that it is offensive.
    Names themselves are not offensive but their record of use often can be.
    Some nationality names – Aussie , Kiwi even Yank are neutral and probably affectionate , some have become offensive through continual use in a derogatory sense, we all know the main ones.
    In my experience, so only anecdotal , Chav is always said with a sneer by people assuming others are inferior in some way.

53. 37. An article in the Spectator about a pejorative word for the working class hardly helps. Chav isn’t a fashion or something that can be reclaimed or used in an arch manner. It’s part of the class war. Enjoyed the crossword otherwise.

    Cryptic crosswords do reflect a certain culture, it’s not about education or curiosity, or lack of it in the young. We can accept that the Opera is a wonderful thing and that culturally it is enjoyed by certain types much more than other types.

54. So the link is The Spectator , despicable rag owned by a tax dodging billionaire criminal .

55. Shanne @47 – thanks, I never realised CHAVS were associated with GRT. Live and learn.
    Totally agree that good GK is not the exclusive domain of people who attend posh private schools, more to do with a desire to learn. It would be a very uneducated world if this was the case. I’m the exception that proves the rule, I went to a posh school and know f-all.
    Excellent crossie, INSIDER my favourite today.
    Thanks Matilda and Manehi

56. Gervase@48
    I agree up to a point, though I’ve never really considered having a fairly wide knowledge base with intellectualism. As far as I can see the issue is as much generational as elitist. To take today’s puzzle, I’m prepared to bet that in the UK only a tiny percentage of people under 50 could tell you that Ahab was Jezebel’s husband, whereas those of my decrepitude grew up festooned with biblical references even though most of us weren’t churchgoers. And while PET SHOP BOYS is fine even for me, once we get beyond the 1990s popular culture references are likely to elude me. Difficult for compilers to cater to us all.

57. Charles@56
    Equated, not considered…

58. HoofIt@55. I’m not sure if Shanne@47 had that right. All the dictionaries seem to give the derivation of the word as coming from Romany, but its general use may be as described by Kara Kennedy of the Spectator in the article linked to by our setter @37: “a young person characterised by coarse and brash behaviour … a despicable term used to shame the council housed and the violent” (though I’m not sure how reliable this person is). Whether it’s a term of abuse or one that is embraced by those it is thrown at, it doesn’t seem to me to be racist.

    As CliveinFrance@45 says, the Guardian’s style guide advises against using the term, but it seems the guide holds little sway in the crossword department.

59. Is the style guide expected to cover the crossword (genuine question)? It may well be ill-advised to use a word in a news report or opinion piece, where it will appear in a context and with connotations, but in a crossword it’s just a word. If it appears in a recognised dictionary I reckon any word is fair enough to use as a crossword answer, for exactly the reason that it’s in the dictionary – because it exists.

60. Paddymelon@32
    Just 5 hrs and 27 comments later

61. Sagittarius @59 – here is the confirmation that the crossword is covered by the Guardian’s style guide.

62. Sagittarius and sheffield hatter
    Chav and Chavvy are racist words to the GRT, unless you subscribe to the Diane Abbot and Sue Braverman definition of racialism. The Fabian Society condemned the use in 2004, not long after the OED made it the ‘word of the year’ Kara Kennedy is a dog whistle journalist following in the footsteps of Boris Johnson, William Cash, Ron Liddle, Matthew D’Acona et all, all working for a right ring rag owned by a allegedly tax avoiding billionaire who lives on an island outside UK jurisdiction.
    I can reference many derogatory and racist words to respected dictionaries, Merrim Webster, but that doesn’t give you licence to use them, dictionaries inform not authorise.
    shanne@47 is spot on, yes I do have GRT connections in my family

63. A great crossword for a beginner like me – even if some of my anwers were ” bung it in and hope for the best”
    Enjoyed the clever anagrams and homophones; the convoluted charades (eg 15dn) less so but it’s all a matter of taste. Thanks Matilda (and Manehi) – look forward to your next one.
    (Interested to read paddymellon #16; I very unusualy finished this one; I couldn’t even start Paul’s!)

64. A relatively fast and easy solve. To me, a chav is the sort of creature who slurps tea/coffee/soup and eats noisily and does other antisocial things like play loud music, drop litter and commit crimes. The level of wealth and education, social status, background and accent don’t come into it (though it would be foolish to pretend that certain things are correlated).

    A word said without racist intent is never racist, regardless of etymology or the protestations of the offended.

65. CHAV and CHAVVY are offensive terms aimed at young, lower-class, white people who compensate for what life has thrown them by acting, dressing and talking in ways to big themselves up just as many black people under the same proverbial lifelong cosh do, yet there’s quite rightly zero way any such negative and demeaning label would be attached to a minority group.
    I’d expect a clue like this from The Waily Fail or Brexpress but I would have thought The Grauniad would be better.
    From a contently working-class bloke, happy on his terraced row.

66. after a sleep i wish to retract my last sentance @21. sorry. i think that i was still anoyed by fridays d.j dinner jacket – black tie clue and how anyone i know could possibly know that sort of thing. This is the guardian after all, so my appologies.

67. [Thanks CliveinFrance@62.]

68. I am late to comment so my apologies if I overlooked anyone quoting the entire 18D limerick. If no one has, then here it is:

    There was a young lady from Hyde
    Who ate too many apples and died.
    The apples fermented
    Inside the lamented
    And made cider inside her inside.

69. Gervase @48. you might be right there. i went to a fairly rough school in London for a year. Any student who was enthusiastic or answered the teacher could expect a kicking after school.

70. MikeNz@66. Well said good sir.

    AndrewTyndall@68: You’re the first but only because the version I (mis?)remember is far too vulgar for heterogeneous company.

    For my own part I find crosswords to be a wonderful source of learning, not least from our estimable bloggers and contribut(e/o)rs.

    TILT: I have heretofore never understood the word CHAV.

71. Alternative parsing for 5D?
    To “downplay every other sauce” could be to say “(I will) ONLY (accept) JUS”.

72. A very enjoyable solve after a very slow start. I loved SELFISH (particularly after getting misled thinking that chippy meant carpenter ((like my dad)) and INSIDER. I’m still not sure how the definition in 1A leads to Pet Shop Boys, but as no one else has mentioned it I must be missing something. Thanks to Manehi for help with some of the parsings and to Matilda for a fun start to the week

73. David @71: I like it.

    Only jus
    Can make this world seem right
    Only jus
    Can make the darkness bright
    Only jus
    And jus alone
    Can thrill me like jus do
    And fill my heart with love
    For only jus…

    It was only Friday that Philistine had BEGGED for an egg in bed. Now Matilda has DOGGED, while providing an egg over easy. Hmm. Thanks, (sweet) rapper.

74. This was the first cryptic I have managed to complete 🙂

75. Well done, Kev. Really pleased for you. The first of many.

76. I actually got through this one for once, despite briefly pondering “DOGGER” for 7 and leaving a handful only partly parsed (e.g. ACT UP and AHAB).
    Particular praise for the rare reverse anagram in 26 – the answer being the clue, as it were.

77. I misparsed 18dn as a homophone of “inside her” instead of “in cider”, but the latter is clearly correct.

    There’s a verse very much like the limerick quoted by AndrewTyndall @68 in Roald Dahl’s Fantastic Mr. Fox:

    Home again swiftly I glide,
    Back to my beautiful bride.
    She’ll not feel so rotten
    As soon as she’s gotten
    Some cider inside her inside.

    Oh poor Mrs. Badger, he cried,
    So hungry she very near died.
    But she’ll not feel so hollow
    If only she’ll swallow
    Some cider inside her inside.

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