Guardian Cryptic 29,082 by Anto

77 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 29,082 by Anto”

1. Thanks, Anto and loonapick!

   Liked BALMORAL, NAPPY, ADMIRAL NELSON and BLURB.
   FUR COAT
   Is it a cryptic definition involving ‘going commando’ (without underwear) to indicate that
   that person going commando may just have hairy coat/cover?
   Need to hear from others.

2. All fur coat and no knickers is the expression, I think.

3. SAUCY
   I read it as
   knock over sounds of SEE-SAW

   loonapick! I agree with your views in the preamble. A great blog as is your routine.

4. I seem to recall Ximenes objecting to grids like this where 1, 5, 16, 17, 27 and 28 across as well as 4 and 20 down have a majority of unchecked letters. I find a lot of Ximenes’ “rules” tiresome, but I’m with him on this one. And certainly I don’t think it’s a suitable grid for a Monday puzzle.
   I, too, couldn’t parse FUR COAT – one of the majority-unchecked ones but there were enough crossers to make the answer fairly plain. The only explanation I could think of would have been too rude even for Paul. KVa hints at it…
   Is a motto really a legend in 20 down?
   I don’t actually have a problem with UNWISE or OUTRAGE. As usually happens with Anto, I found most of it challenging and very enjoyable once I’d stopped grumping about the grid he used. Sitting at home in Norfolk which proudly proclaims itself to be “Nelson’s County”, I was amused by the anagram for ADMIRAL NELSON; and the definition for NAPPY is delightful, too.
   Loonapick is right about BYTE, of course, and the grammar of UTAH doesn’t really work either – it should really be “when evacuated”, but then the surface wouldn’t stand up.
   Minor quibbles, though (apart from the grid). Thanks to Anto and loonapick.

5. All done and dusted, and pretty much parsed. Which unaccounted letters?

   I think FUR COAT is a rich garment, but also what an animal “wears” when naked, but I agree it’s thin. I was trying to get an anagram of rich inside something beginning with fu for a bit.

   It’s a good tactic putting Anto on on Monday, because I took longer on this than the Quiptic.

   Thank you Anto and loonapick.

6. It’s the expression fur coat and no knickers!

7. Froggy@2
   That makes perfect sense. I came across this expression some time ago. Could not recall it today.
   Thanks.

8. UNWISE and FUR COAT were my “Huh?” list. In UNWISE, as the middle of June and Swiss meant removing the first and last letters, i assumed that the “e” came from doing the same with “get”. So I couldn’t see where the friends came into it.

   I share some of your reservations, Loonapick. I can’t think of any better explanation for FUR COAT than what KVa has described. Not the best clue I’ve ever seen.

   I thought 21d could be taken both ways. I initially put in OUTAGE but had a spare square at the end so amended it.

   I was stuck for a while with ANAGRAM, thinking it might involves ome actor I’d never heard of, but enjoyed the “D’oh!” moment when the penny dropped.

   Thanks Anto & Loonapick.

9. Thank you Froggy @2 – your parsing of FUR COAT seems convincing (and very funny).

10. FUR COAT – ‘Fur coat and no knickers’ is a phrase to describe someone who seeks to appear richer than they are. So the clue is a cryptic Definition. I failed to parse SAUCY, but I can see now that it’s quite clever. I felt this was tougher than average for a Monday overall. Thanks Anto and loonapick.

11. Sorry lils, we crossed.

12. GDU@8
    FUR COAT
    When I read the clue with ‘the saying’ in mind, it looks beautiful.

13. Agree with your comments loonapick, and with the fur coat and no knickers comments.

14. Yes, KVa @ 12, I hadn’t heard the expression.

15. I agree that it was ‘unwise’ to include ‘friends’ in 6d. The clue is better without it.

16. If you know the expression (fur coat and no knickers), FUR COAT works nicely. If you don’t, it’s just confusing.

17. The temptation to write in ORANGUTAN was very great (they are also Orange), but I overcame it.

    “All fur and no knickers” is completely new to me, so FUR COAT went unparsed, as did SAUCY and EMANATE. Good puzzle for a Monday workout.

18. Just confusing – absolutely, gladys @16. You also need to know the ‘commando’ phrase. Here was I thinking I was doing an enjoyable and approachable Anto for most of the solve, but at the end there were those few annoying ‘huh?’, bung and check clues. Thanks, Anto and loonapick.

19. TassieTim @18, Gladys@16. You could say that about any clue that requires general knowledge that you don’t have. I’ve always thought “fur coat and no knickers” was a north of England phrase, and, so, possibly less well known, but I thought “going commando” was more widely known.

20. I thought this was one of Anto’s best and unlike loonapick, I really enjoyed it. Loved FUR COAT, one of my grandmother’s favourite expressions, and also ORANGEMAN as my father and his father etc were part of that tradition. I also liked ANDY WARHOL, ADMIRAL NELSON, ANAGRAM, BALMORAL and NO COMMENT. Count me as one of your diehard fans Anto.

    Ta both.

21. Thanks Froggy for the parsing of FUR COAT and Loonapick For SAUCY. I had no trouble with the E in FRIENDS, Why should it have to work the same way as the other two words? Some EXCELLENT clues here, such as NAPPY. So thankyou Anto, I don’t mind your quirkiness, but I won’t say I don’t have problems with it!

22. Another thing I don’t like about 24 BYTE is that should be finishes of, not off.

23. I do my best to be positive but can’t seem to enjoy this setter’s work.

    Not heard of the expression ‘all fur coat and no knickers’ but it makes the clue quite good if you did.

    I did like ENABLED with the nice clever clogs misdirection, but felt, on the whole, there were too many clues a little muddled.

    Re SAUCY, not keen on being asked to ‘think of a word, then reverse it, to fit the def’.

    Hey-ho, many thanks, both.

24. FUR COAT AND NO KNICKERS is a Northern expression and also a Mike Harding play

    https://www.mikeharding.co.uk/books/plays/fur-coat-and-no-knickers/

    Mike Harding cropped up in a 15^2 duscussion on Apr 14 re the word “WAZZOCK” – within a Paul puzzle.

    Loved SAUCY, ANDY WARHOL and BYTE ( the I.T. bent within me ).

    Thank you Anto and loonapick.

25. Didn’t like this much, for the reasons already enunciated. Nho the fur coat saying, without which the clue make no sense, but no hum. And how is a legend a motto?

26. In Chambers, legend is defined as a “motto, inscription or explanatory words (eg for a picture)”

27. Failed to solve 5ac FUR COAT and I could not parse 17ac, 24ac, 6d.

    New for me: PP = per procurationem (used when signing a letter on someone else’s behalf); ORANGEMAN march – but I think I saw it in an episode of Derry Girls on TV 🙂

    Thanks, both.

28. A legend can be an inscription which in many cases is a motto eg Carpe Diem

29. Sorry Loonapick, we crossed while I was thinking of an example.

30. As others have said, the expression is fur coat, no knickers. I think it was out of date when I first heard it years ago.
    There is a similar expression red shoes no knickers – presumably with people eschewing or not being able to afford fur coats.

31. Thanks for the blog, I thought this was really good although should not have been in the Monday slot. PUMP is simple but clever , BALMORAL deceptive with “it’s said” , ENABLED very neat use of clogs, SAUCY very original , FUR COAT very deceptive, I have heard this said many times and seen the play mentioned ny Flea@24.
    I think we have a severe case of Setter’s Name Syndrome, just like Saturday but in the opposite sense.

32. Thanks both.

    I quite enjoyed this puzzle. I had heard of the phrase about the fur coat.

33. My word. A Monday puzzle that I failed to finish, because of SAUCY, which now I have understood it, is a wonderful clue. Disagree with loonapick’s criticism of OUTRAGE, in my opinion the clue leads to the solution, and also with the notion that every middle should be of a similar length. As for FUR COAT, THE “fur coat and no knickers” expression was very common in my north England upbringing to describe a neighbour who was thought to be putting on airs.
    All in all a thoroughly enjoyable puzzle, thanks to Anto and loonapick.

34. About “all fur coat and no knickers”, I know the expression well, but it usually has a more derogatory sense. It would be directed at a woman who has dressed herself up to look posh, but who is thought to have somewhat lax sexual moral standards!

35. Julia, I think that still fits with red shoes!

36. Roz @31: the SNS always seems to target Anto, unfairly IMO. Well said as per.

37. Thanks Anto and loonapick
    Very difficult in places. I struggled in the NW, and PUMP went in from definition only.
    I knew “all fur coat and no knickers”, and I have heard it only in the sense that NorfolkDumpling @34 gives. (I was reminded of this Alan Bennett monologue.)
    TRUE TO TYPE is a better answer for 25a, and that held me up too.
    I agree with the quibbles on the construction of UNWISE.

38. NHO of “fur coat and no knickers” despite being originally from Manchester. A similar expression is “kippers and curtains”, i.e. expensive curtains in the front room where they can be seen from the street, eating kippers (cheap food) in the kitchen at the back out of sight.

39. Thought this a notch above the usual Monday fare, with some nice smooth surfaces. Though I too put in FUR COAT with a shrug at the very last. PUMP held out for quite a while too. And SAUCY brought a smile and lived up to its name…

40. I think that loonapick has let his grumpiness get in the way of what for me was a sticky, but good – and at times very funny – crossword. Setters do not exist to keep 15^ contributors happy. In truth, there are no rules although I appreciate that different newspapers have their styles and that is part of their overall identity.

    I answered all the clues, which means that one way or another I could work out what they were; be it the clue in isolation, the crossers or both. I had some enjoyable ahas, pdms, lols and tea tray moments. What’s not to like? But then I also understand that essentially, such analysis is what 15^ exists to discuss!

    I’ll get me coat …

41. TP @40 Fur one? 🙂

42. Anyone else have SUN CLAD?
    Really liked this

43. Some good clues and in the end satisfying to complete.

    I think this is a modified Guardian grid, which explains the three unches in 4D and 20D. I liked BALMORAL, like Roz @31, for the misleading it’s said, SAUCY and ENABLED for the imaginative wordplays, and NAPPY for the good definition.

    Thanks Anto and loonapick.

44. AlanC@36; TP@40
    I’m not grumpy (far from it as I only have 3 days of my current contract left then I get a few days off!). I do however believe in rules when it comes to crosswords. I don’t mind rules being bent, but, for example, in the BYTE clue, we are asked for a finish, not finishes, and a similar issue exists with UNWISE. I also think my comments about MENT in NO COMMENT and the unhelpful grid are valid comments. It is nothing to do with the setter’s name – I am just as happy to criticise Bradman, Nutmeg etc on the (you’d have to agree) rarer occasions that they break the rules. If bloggers can’t point these examples out, there’s no point in a blog. Might as well just list the answers…

45. Looners @44 – fairy snuff, which I hope I cover in my last two sentences. Sorry if I translated ‘left me cold’ incorrectly as ‘grumpy’.

46. Some super clues – ‘clever clogs’ was lovely – with some very iffy bits (BYTE, as others have said, simply doesn’t give the solver the correct instructions, and I agree with the blogger about UNWISE, although I didn’t spot while solving).

    For whatever reason, this setter seems to consistently have & use more licence than others to produce sloppy clues. Rather a shame.

    Thanks Anto and loonapick

47. Didn’t know PP for “per pro or anything about fur coats and knickers.

    loonapick in the blog for 16a you need, MAR, not MARSH, for “spoil.”

    26d UTAH is large as states go, but it’s just over 2% of the area of the US. Not what I’d call a large part of it.

    Enjoyed the fun. Thanks, Anto and loonapick.

48. Thanks to Anto and loonapick.
    Slightly more challenging than the usual Monday offering, and some awkward clues but happy overall. Didn’t have a problem with the clue for ‘FUR COAT’ – phrase known since childhood. New word for me was ‘AMATORY’ although easily gettable from the wordplay. Favourites:
    3d, 4d, 14a, 17a.

49. I think of the saying as having a Scottish edge – all fur coat an’ nae knickers!

50. Well that certainly sparked a bit of controversy. My wife and I aren’t crossword purists but try to enjoy whatever comes up. We certainly did with this one.

51. So glad it wasn’t just me with the ‘outage/outrage’ clue and BYTE

52. Loonapick @44: I certainly did not accuse of being grumpy and I appreciate everyone of your blogs including your quibbles today with which I wholeheartedly agree. My comment was more general, in that I feel Anto never gets a fair crack, even when some of his clues are outstanding. All a matter of opinion of course.

53. Valentine, I too raised an eyebrow at the superfluous “large” in the UTAH clue. Utah is large by some standards, but it’s smaller in land area than all of its neighbors. (Idaho is smaller in total area, which I guess tells you that the size difference between the two is less than the area of the Great Salt Lake.) And the clue works just fine without that word.

    All of my other issues have been raised by either the blog or the other commenters.

54. Thanks Anto & loonapick

    Valentine & mrpenney: don’t forget the the crossword convention that punctuation may be present or absent in order to misdirect. So “large, part of US” seems fine to me.

55. This seemed like standard Monday fare to me and I quite enjoyed it. No quibbles from me.

    I’m surprised at the number who don’t know the “All fur coat and no knickers” expression. I grew up in SW England in the 60s/70s and it was common parlance for a woman with airs and graces trying to act “above her station” (as would have been said at the time. The even more derogatory usage as being of loose morals came later I think, or maybe I was too young to appreciate that nuance earlier!

    Thanks Anto and loonapick

56. Loonapick@44 my comment@31 referred to the comments section not your blog, AlanC@52 puts my views very well.
    As a general point , I like the bloggers to have an opinion about the puzzle. They are volunteers providing a great service and entitled to have their say. Even if I totally disagree it does not matter and I am still grateful for the effort.

57. I enjoyed this, far from straightforward for a Monday but it is a bank holiday.
    Lots to like, particularly using the “US medical program” to get to ER (I loved that show), SAUCY, and “clever clogs”.

    Wasn’t sure about “-EMAN” turning up twice, and practically crossing, but both were good clues.

    Thanks to both.

58. I am probably too late, but I think the criticism of ‘finish off’ in 24a is unfair. I parsed it as an imperative telling the solver to finish off (i.e. take the ends of…).
    Otherwise I agree this wasn’t the most enjoyable / satisfying solve recently.
    Thanks both.

59. Really enjoyed this. Saucy was my favourite. Clever. Made me feel smarter, which is kinda why I do this stuff…

60. GUN COAT was this Texan’s hopeless guess at 5. The term commando is known over here, but not the colloquial phrase. I also guessed GULP for 10. Per pro Latin phrase unfamiliar to this lawyer as not in common use. I love this website, although the criticisms of a setter’s style can be tiresome.

61. I thought it was good to have a more challenging test on a Monday. No quibbles with the parsing though I didn’t see it all at first.
    And the grid seemed fine also. What’s wrong with 3 consecutive unchecked letters?
    Thanks Anto and loonapick

62. Thanks Anto. I always get enjoyment from Anto’s crosswords as well as loonapick’s blogs and no one who knows me has ever said I’m too easily pleased. I do think Anto gets dumped on more than other setters so I agree with Roz @31 on that score. My top picks were BYTE, AMATORY, EMANATE, NO COMMENT, and OTTOMAN. For those who care UTAH ranks 13th in area size of the 50 states. Thanks loonapick for the blog.

63. Tim @61: the “rule” is that at least every second letter must be checked, the idea being that you can eventually get enough information to solve a clue you can’t get based on the pattern of checked letters alone, if you’re successful at solving the clues around it. (There’s also a “rule” that no more than 50 percent of the letters in the puzzle overall can be unchecked, though this one is much more frequently broken.) But since the Guardian has a selection of pre-approved grids that setters must choose among, and this badly non-compliant grid is evidently among them, clearly they allow setters to break these rules.

64. I got EDGY, and nothing else.

    Doesn’t bode well for the upcoming week.

    Does anybody else find EVERYMAN difficult this week?

65. Late to finish today. I was 3/4 finished when I had to set off for Liverpool and only completed the NW in my return. I really enjoyed this despite a couple of quibbles. My favourite was 5ac when the penny dropped but I had heard the expression and seen the Mike Harding play many years ago. (At the Royal X in Manchester I think.)
    Thanks for the excellent blog loonapick

66. I am one of the solvers from the states. One of the things I admire in your cryptics is the elimination of unnecessary words. I found this puzzle, however, failed on that count. Why is “importing” necessary in 19A; “about” is an insertion indicator. Similarly, no need for “large” in 26A. Utah is less than 1% of the U.S. That said, I loved 17A and 2D, although the latter took me an embarrassingly long time to make LA + UND +ER into LAUNDER.

67. Jay@66 for 19Ac we need “about” to form the anagram of yourhowl and “importing” to put the N inside.

68. Good point Roz—thanks!

69. Art Lark@55 I agree that ‘fur coat’ was more about pretension than wealth though the ‘no knickers’ was always an aspersion I thought to being ‘no better than she ought to be’

70. Late to start and failed to finish. Possible last word on four coat/no knickers debate: I have always thought that this expression was specific to the allegedly staid neighbourhood of Morningside in Edinburgh where “appearance” is everything.

71. What impresses me is that everyone seems to understand the expression ‘going commando’. This is a term which has intrigued me since I met it and for which I have only one source (‘Friends’ as you ask). What could it mean? Do commandos habitually parade ‘sans cullottes’?

    I always understood the ‘fur coat etc’ to refer to a lady whose company was retained permanently in return for sexual favours – nothing to do with her social status. A gangster’s ‘moll’ would fit the bill perhaps. (As would a courtesan?)

    Some good stuff here. Surely ‘mainland loser’ is a cracker? And the ellipsis between ANDY WARHOL and EDGY was most satisfactory.

72. And UTAH is ‘large’ to let the solver know that the answer is right – calling it a state would be too much of a giveaway but ‘part of the USA’ would be too loose a definition.

73. I should have added that, in Morningside, “sex” means the containers in which the coalman carries the coal up the stairs into your tenement flat.

74. Thanks both,

    Late to the party today. I had an only partly parsed ‘quip’ involving the quiz QIb for 10ac.

    When I was an articled clerk I was told to sign letters ‘Cooper Bros pp name of signer’ because pp was short for per procurationem meaning ‘by the action of’. Most people think it means ‘for and on behalf of’ and sign the other way round.

75. QI not QIb.

76. The possibility that the Grauniad now allows setters to use grids not in the library, is news to me – and probably to many others. Boatman, in giving his masterclass, assured us that Hugh insisted on library grids only: he would not even permit setters to rotate or reflect a grid.

    So clearly there has been a change of heart. Or maybe a lapse of attention. That wouldn’t bother me – wearing my setter’s hat I have assembled a huge library of grids to choose from – and even then I often tweak the odd square to fit…

    But three consecutive unches in a light? That’s surely got to be a no-no, Grauniad or any other national daily!

    As to the puzzle, to give Anto his credit – well I was lost on FUR COAT like many others. I don’t want to know what’s worn under the kilt, thank you! 🙂 The rest was fine but it took me ages to parse EMANATE.

    Definitely not the easiest of Mondays – but thanks to Anto for the challenge, and loonapick for the blog.

77. I had sun clad too!

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