It’s always good to see Qaos’ name on a puzzle that I’m blogging and particularly when it’s a Prize – although it has been mentioned several times recently that it is, apparently, the editor and not the setter who determines which puzzles go into the Prize slot.
Some setters’ puzzles sometimes have a theme: Qaos puzzles always have a theme – and sometimes it’s a challenge to find it, especially if, as sometimes happens, it’s a film or band, for instance, that I’ve never heard of. At least, with a Prize puzzle, we have more time to search – and research. I was about half way through this one when bells began to tinkle and then I had fun tracking down an impressive number of what I recognised as *Microsoft fonts. There have been several comments recently to the effect that almost anything can be the name of a band, for instance, and so I feel no shame in confessing that I resorted to lists to confirm my suspicions, since I have little experience in this area, apart from the few I use myself. I spotted COPPER PLATE, COMIC SANS, TIMES NEW ROMAN, COURIER, CENTURY, FRANKLIN and GOTHIC (and had a little smile at the thought of SANS SER[i]F, which, of course, conjured memories of the classic Guardian spoof, which I always love citing)
There may well be more, hidden more subtly, so I look forward to your contributions. (*EPIC and SUMAC seemed like likely candidates, which I found in a different context and so, not being an expert I may have got my nomenclature wrong.)
As for the clues, I had ticks for 10ac ROOSEVELT (cleverly crossing with FRANKLIN), 11ac CHAFFINCH, 15ac COPPERS and 25ac CENTURY, both for the surface, 31ac LIE-IN, for the ingenious construction, 1dn EPIC (I always enjoy Qaos’ mathematical clues and I was chuffed to work this one out), 3dn SERF for the excellent definition / surface, 4dn FRANKLIN, 6dn PERCEPTION and 23dn UNMASK for the brilliant surface.
Many thanks to Qaos for a most enjoyable puzzle.
Definitions are underlined in the clues.
NB For the sake of the archive: my apologies for any confusion over the first 14 comments on the blog. I was unable to post the blog until around 7.00am this morning and posted a placeholder to that effect just after midnight. I didn’t expect any response to that and was surprised to find the comments, which KenMac has kindly moved to this blog. My thanks to him.
Across
9 Leader of Latvia wears crown, of course (5)
PLATE
L (Latvia – International Vehicle Registration) in (wears) PATE (crown) – a plate can be (Collins) ‘an entire course of a meal: a cold plate‘
10 President in jumper and First Lady in extremely special shirt (9)
ROOSEVELT
(kanga)ROO (jumper) + EVE (First Lady) in S[pecia]L + T (shirt)
I was impressed that this entry crossed with FRANKLIN
11 Flier for very strong tea to begin with in church (9)
CHAFFINCH
CHA (tea, to begin with) + FF (very strong) + IN + CH (church)
12 Funny and strange – 10cc cover Mahler’s overture (5)
COMIC
An anagram (strange) of IO CC round M[ahler] – such a musical event would, indeed, be funny and strange
13 Pattern exciting clients (7)
STENCIL
An anagram (exciting) of CLIENTS
15 Boys in blue score! Shot going over heads of Portsmouth players (7)
COPPERS
An anagram (shot) of SCORE round initial letters (heads) of Portsmouth Players – a great surface
17 Note car reversing on motorway (5)
MINIM
A reversal (reversing) of MINI (car) + M (motorway)
18 Contemporary novel (3)
NEW
Double definition
20 Perfect business transaction from Apple? (5)
IDEAL
I-DEAL
22 French mathematician swapping units of temperature with messenger (7)
COURIER
[f]OURIER (French mathematician) swapping f (Fahrenheit) for C (Celsius)
25 100 scream over rock tune (7)
CENTURY
CRY (scream) round an anagram (rock) of TUNE
26 By 1pm and 2pm? (5)
TIMES
Double definition
27 Chief supports electricity supplier shielding live (9)
MAINSTAYS
MAINS (electricity supplier) round STAY (live)
30 Ignores party with roasted nuts (9)
DISCOUNTS
DISCO (party) + an anagram (roasted) of NUTS
31 Diamond I kept back to stay longer in sack (3-2)
LIE-IN
A reversal (back) of NEIL (Diamond) round (kept) I
Minor quibble: the verb to lie in does not need a hyphen
Down
1 2.7183 + 25 ÷ 3.1416? That’s impressive (4)
EPIC
E (2.7183 ) + C (century – answer to 25dn) round (divided by – ÷) PI (3.1416)
2 Sailor wearing favourite article to get food (4,4)
FAVA BEAN
AB (sailor) in FAVE (favourite) + AN (article)
3 One’s bound to land planes here or off bases (4)
SERF
Last letters (bases) of planeS herE oR ofF – great definition: see here
4 Diarist starting to learn first note as soul singer (8)
FRANKLIN
(Anne) Frank (diarist) + L[earn] + I (first) + N (note)
5 Romantic turn by husband in time I see (6)
GOTHIC
GO (turn) + H (husband) in T (time) IC (I see)
6 Understanding each plan to oust Conservative (10)
PERCEPTION
PER (each) + [con]CEPTION (plan) minus con – ousting Conservative
7 Setter’s down then setter’s up: that’s a hysterical person (6)
MEEMIE
ME (setter) + a reversal (up, in a down clue) of ME (setter) + I E (ID EST – that is) – a new word for me but clearly clued
8 Regarding the ear of alien – top third is missing (4)
OTIC
[ex]OTIC (alien, minus first third of its letters)
13 Total bill for tree (5)
SUMAC
SUM (total) + AC (bill)
14 Red’s issue? No midfield covering international work (10)
COMMISSION
COMMI[e]’S (Red’s) minus the middle letter of FI[e]LD + SON (issue) round I (international)
16 Character from The X-Files caught out by soil (5)
SULLY
S[c]ULLY (X-Files character) minus c (caught)
19 Wife juggling cake – it’s most eccentric (8)
WACKIEST
W (wife) + an anagram (juggling) of CAKE ITS
21 Copied foreign character, delighted to be outside (8)
EMULATED
ELATED (delighted) round MU (Greek character)
23 Expose Sunak suspiciously hiding millions (6)
UNMASK
An anagram (suspiciously) of SUNAK round M (millions)
24 Book by scientists about oxygen on island (6)
ROMANS
RS (Royal Society – scientists) round O (oxygen) + MAN (island)
26 Neat British cartoonist (4)
TIDY
Double definition – the cartoonist is Bill Tidy, who died earlier this year
28 Rugby club taking part in Jerusalem (4)
SALE
Hidden in jeruSALEm
29 Without hospitals (4)
SANS
Double definition – we had sans = without very recently – best known to me from Jaques’ seven ages of man speech from ‘As you like it’
“All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse’s arms;
And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress’ eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths, and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon’s mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lin’d,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slipper’d pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;
His youthful hose, well sav’d, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion;
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.”
… which seems a good place to stop
Almost completed, but defeated by MEEMIE, which was new to me.
Ticks for SERF and UNMASK, both enjoyable surfaces, as well as PLATE, COPPERS and IDEAL.
I always enjoy Eileen’s postings and look forward to her comments on
COURIER, since the clue seemed to point to Fourier
The L in ROOSEVELT which seems redundant as Eve is the First Lady
The parsing of LIE-IN
I enjoyed the challenge without ever feeling that I was quite on Qaos’s wavelength
lenmasterman@1 – Agreed on almost all points. My paper copy sat for a couple of days complete except for MEEMIE. Then at some point I remember picking it up and thinking, ‘ME-EM-IE would fit the wordplay, but I can’t believe it’s a word’. But I looked in Chambers and found it, to my surprise. I had Fourier written in and had to change it to COURIER, which didn’t feel right – although I can’t resist saying it does make the clue a Fourier transform! The Lady in the wordplay for ROOSEVELT is doing double duty, which is another way of putting what you said. I liked EPIC. As always, I’m looking forward to Eileen’s blog when the problem gets resolved.
Looks like the theme for this one is typefaces (or fonts, as we call them on the computer), with Comic Sans, Copperplate, Stencil, Times New Roman, Courier, Gothic, and probably some others making an appearance. Century also I think?
lenmasterman, KeithS: I believe in ROOSEVELT, S(EVE)L is “first lady in extremely SpeciaL.” So the L comes from the extremes of special and Lady is only part of the definition of Eve.
I’ve heard of the screaming meemies but never a meemie on its own–according to Collins it’s a UK usage. The wordplay and crossers helped me out there.
Very enjoyable puzzle, thanks Qaos and thanks in advance Eileen.
May I start by wishing Julie in Australia a very happy 40th Wedding Anniversary (as mentioned yesterday).
After finding Roosevelt and Franklin I thought I was onto a theme , but couldn’t find any more. So I think matt w has got it. I would have also been in two minds about Fourier/Courier but I already had the c from SUMAC.
I am also looking forward to Eileen’s entertaining and informative blog.
So MEEMIE is right?? I entered it in desperation at last, expecting it to be wrong. I thought the theme must be FDR’s New Deal, but not lots of related terms.
lenmasterman@1, Fourier -> Courier is F[ahrenheit] ->C[elsius]
kevin@5, and my best wishes too to Julie in Australia.
Yes Me@7, exactly.
I also didn’t know MEEMIE, but from the wordplay it had to be right, and dictionary check confirmed.
The fonts are very clear, but I’ll await Eileen’s blog for SERF. Sans serif.
MEEMIE is fine , a hysterical persom in Chambers , in full screaming…
MattW has ROOSEVELT sorted. COURIER is sort of okay , the “with” a bit clumsy.
EPIC seems to have forgotten Bodmas the Bear.
paddymelon@8, planeS herE oR ofF (bases = last letters)
Yes, Yes Me@10. I got the parsing. But it’s so close to a certain kind of font SANS SERIF, like this one. I was just wondering if I missed something or was Qaos just teasing?
Rosa Klebb is in the FT today for any fans of Arachne.
Thanks Roz@12. So happy to see her twice in a fortnight. Will take her away with me on a little break next week.
Can any parse PERCEPTION for me please?
Apologies again for the delayed blog.
I have only just seen the comments on my placeholder – you seem to have sorted things out admirably!
Thanks for the clear (as usual) blog Eileen. MEEMIE was new for me as I think it will be for quite a few. I struggled for ages with EPIC until realising that 25 referred not to some obscure Roman numeral but 25 across, doh.
No need for apologies Eileen @1. I saw the placeholder and thought “all these comments are going to disappear aren’t they?”.
Re 22ac: I did originally comment on the clue but, in view of the lengthy discussions in my blog of the Anto puzzle last week, I decided not to open that can of worms – but I thought someone would!
each = PER -> (con)CEPTION, I think
MINIM is a bit strange. Couldn’t the clue have equally been “Note car on motorway”?
Dear Julie in Australia
Have a really lovely day! xx
Very tough. NE corner was hardest for me. And I forgot to look for the theme!
Favourites: UNMASK (mainy for the clue); IDEAL; CENTURY.
New for me: mathematician Joseph FOURIER (22ac very well clued); Sale Rugby club; cartoonist Bill Tidy; E/Euler’s number = 2.7183; Dana Scully in X Files tv show; MEEMIE.
After working out the E + PI bits of 1d I did not get why C = 25? is it simply the first letter of the answer to 25ac? Ah, I see now, very clever!
5d I was not 100% sure why does GOTHIC = romantic although I have heard of the Gothic romance genre.
Thanks, both.
Thanks for the blog, SERF has neat use of bound, COMMISSION is a very clever construction, FOURIER was a nice touch with the temperature.
EPIC earned a severe frown from Bodmas the bear.
Rosa Klebb ( Arachne ) is in the FT today.
Thanks, Qaos and Eileen!
LIE-IN
Stretching is our birthright…lemme try a bit
‘stay, longer in sack’ or ‘stay-longer in sack’
—>a longer stay in sack.
That the ‘to’ is a linkword won’t be liked by many.
Tim C@5
Agree.
Didn’t know Bill Tidy had died. Recently re-read my collection of Fosdyke Saga books – brilliant stuff.
TimC@5. I had a similar thought. There is a lot of controversy on the use of ‘on’ in cryptics. The most common convention seems to be that in across clues ‘ A on B’ means ‘B followed by A’ and in down clues ‘A followed by B’. Recently Pangakupu went against this convention in his clue for Rutland (not wrong but I didn’t like it). Maybe Qaos agrees with me? Here it is MINI< on M.
Thanks Qaos and Eileen. Also thanks to Angus who parsed CONCEPTION for me in the other blog.
If my memory is correct the Fourier transform was associated with Frequency Modulation the technology behind the FM radio.
I was pretty sure I’d spotted the theme with ROOSEVELT and FRANKLIN, seemingly confirmed by NEW and (I)DEAL. Is four enough for a theme? Then eventually I started to see all the typefaces.
This was good fun. Many thanks Qaos and Eileen.
I took the course in 9ac to be the River Plate.
Can you become a screaming meemie when you get the heeby jeebies?
Thank you Eileen, especially for SERF and your link. I’ve been waiting all week for this. I just knew that Qaos put it in there for a reason, along with SANS. And thanks (I think) for the quote from AYLI at 29d. The last two lines are perilously close for me, but it made me laugh. Qaos must have done that deliberately for the last clue. As you say, a good place to stop.
Happy Ruby Saturday Julie in Oz!
SERF sans I? You can’t be a serf and have a sense of self, can you, when you’re bound?
Anna@15 and GiF@16. 🙂 🙂
Hovis @12… my initial thought is that I don’t care for that convention. In the sense of on=against, it seems to me that the sense of it is commutative, in that A against B (and indeed B against A) can mean both AB and BA.
Took a while but really enjoyed this. Did not get MEEMIE or SERF and couldn’t work out why 25 = C in EPIC.
Favourites similar to Eileen with top favourite CHAFFINCH and big smiles for ROOSEVELT, COURIER
As usual did not get the theme.
Thanks Qaos and Eileen
Thanks Eileen. Quite an assortment of clues , some wrote themselves in and others took a lot more lateral thinking. At first glance I thought 9a had to be LINKS (even if I wasn’t entirely comfortable with it) and that corner was the last to yield. COMMISSION was the obvious answer to 14d but I couldn’t see why for a long time. I had to seek help from Google on X-Files and the French mathematician but like Michelle @ 7 I couldn’t find any association there for Gothic and romantic. Once again, the theme eluded me completely.
MEEMIE (which I didn’t know) made me think of ME ME, and supposed that’s where that came from. I was going to object to the use of the word hysterical as theoretically only women can be meemies.
Looked a bit further and found in Britannica:
The 150-millimetre Nebelwerfer, a towed, six-tube launcher, was particularly respected by U.S. and British troops, to whom it was known as the “Screaming Meemie” or “Moaning Minnie” for the eerie sound made by the incoming rockets. Maximum range was more than 6,000 yards (5,500 metres).
(also female, but then the pilot who dropped the Little Boy on Hiroshima named his plane after his mother Enola Gay).
I found this puzzle quite tricky and was pleased to finish it. EPIC was my first in, and I was certain it had to be that, but I didn’t understand the C (from ’25’) until I came here! I liked LIE-IN and COMMISSION particularly. I was late to discover the theme (as usual), but when I did get it was nice to go back over the thematic entries.
Thanks to Qaos and Eileen.
[Me@24. Sorry, that was a bit dark, one of the hazards of chasing etymology. Time for bed. Enjoyed the crossword.]
Congratulations Julie. Always enjoy your contributions.
Tim C @21. I don’t disagree. I guess the idea is that ‘on’ in an across reads fairly naturally as ‘added onto’ which suggests ‘following’. It’s hardly conclusive so many setters wouldn’t bat an eyelid if they used it the other way around. The down clues case bothers me more but again it’s far from conclusive there either.
Really annoyed with myself for missing the theme – even with a Qaos when I know it’s got to be in there somewhere! I should have picked up the hint, especially with GOTHIC, COURIER, SANS and FRANKLIN there to nudge me!
Ah well, plenty of fun last weekend in a vain attempt to lift me out of my misery (tooth trouble 🙁 ). I had to look up MEEMIE of course (as, I suppose, did many of you) but it’s right there in Chambers. And I wasn’t sure of Neil Diamond, though the name rings a bell and the definition was clear.
EPIC has to get a tick for the clever wordplay – crafty of Qaos to say the least, mixing a cross-ref. in with his numerology! Also upticks for SERF for misdirection, UNMASK and PERCEPTION for their politically apposite surfaces; and ROMANS. Oh and dear old Bill TIDY – sadly missed. I loved his Grimbledon Down in the New Scientist – anyone else remember them? Poor old Director Treem – continually beset by daft projects involving Nu-Food and Anti-Sex Porn Videos!
Thanks to Qaos and Eileen.
I was left with two unsolved, having convinced myself that 2d was LIMA BEAN but not writing it in as the wordplay didn’t work. This gave me PRIZE as a possible for 9a, but with no justification. I put it away with blanks but forgot to go back to it until this morning, but last weekend’s thoughts were still uppermost, so a dnf for me.
Apparently there was a theme.
Thanks to Qaos and Eileen. And congratulations to Julie on the Ruby today.
Tim C and Hovis: It’s a house rule on the Times crossword that “on” in an across clue means after, and in a down clue means before, as Brian Greer (Brendan) explains in his book. Fair enough, but personally I don’t see any reason why setters for other publications need to follow it. The SOED includes as one meaning of “on”: “Expressing contact with any surface, whatever its position”. As well as the oft-cited spider on the ceiling, think of headlights on a car, brake lights on a car, the wheels on the bus (go round and round)…
Eileen!
You posted something about LIE-IN in the comments section. That comment has since vanished. Change of mind?
SERF and EPIC were my favourites, and how apposite that the puzzle was blogged by a font of all wisdom. [Gee Andrew I heard that crossword solvers in France came up with a mad laugh in response to the Fourier transform]
Lord Jim@31
Your examples are quite convincing. No issues there.
The old habit has to be flushed from my system. That
will take some time. 🙂
17a MINIM “Note car on motorway” – there’s nothing notable about a car on a motorway – it’s full of them.
17s MINIM “Note car reversing on motorway” – that would be worthy of note.
KVa @32 – I hoped no one would notice!
I had a(nother) mad moment and suddenly thought my parsing was wrong: I often have to think twice about the spelling of NEIL.
🙂
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Thackray
…appeared in yesterday’s Indy, and I noticed
‘1977 … he published a book of lyrics, Jake’s Progress, illustrated by Bill TIDY’
FrankieG @38 – I noticed that yesterday, too. I was a great fan of both.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrooge_(1951_film)
A Christmas staple since for ever, suitable for all the family?
‘Variety, however, called the film “a grim thing that will give tender-aged kiddies viewing it the screaming-MEEMIEs, and adults will find it long, dull and greatly overdone.”‘
Eileen@36 – yes, NIEL’s a bit like KIER – remember him in KINKIER? Both flout the “I” before “E” rule.
Agreed Hovis @28 (and Lord Jim @31).
I’d forgotten sheffield hatter @30 that I’d also thought of LIMA bean before I eventually came up with the parsable FAVA BEAN, and then remembered that it’s where the word Aquafava comes from. The juice from a tin of beans is full of protein and can substitute well for egg whites for Vegans. I’ve made a few meringues from it over the years (for my son).
Hatter @45; Tim C &57. I was, I confess, not for a moment tempted by LIMA Bean, remembering Hannibal Lecter’s memorable line from The Silence of the Lambs: ” I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti.” I encourage those out there with similarly depraved cultural prioroties and who also did not need to Google The X-Files to declare themselves.
me @58: ‘priorities’ of course; my spelling is not depraved but my typing skills are degenerating.
It was Qaos, so there was a theme, and I found it … but no help when I was solving.
I liked COPPERS and UNMASK for their surfaces, the EPIC mathematics where I was also puzzled by the C for a while, and PERCEPTION for the wordplay.
Thanks Qaos and Eileen.
Thanks Qaos. Despite my failure with MEEMIE and the clever SERF as well as not spotting the theme I enjoyed this. My top picks were ROOSEVELT, COMIC, COPPERS, CENTURY (great surface), and SULLY. Thanks Eileen for the blog.
I don’t quite understand what sans has to do with hospitals?
QuietEars @62
SAN is short for sanatorium.
QuietEars: Sans is short for sanitaria, an old term for a hospitals.
On the theme, it looks like SUMAC is indeed a font family, and I think CENTURY GOTHIC is the best known font–I should call it a font and not a typeface because it’s exclusively digital according to Wikipedia.
Some of the other words seem to have been used as names of fonts somewhere, but maybe not as well known as the ones we mentioned.
[Spooner’s catflap@58: Amusingly, in the novel, Lecter says “…with fava beans and a big Amarone.” The screenwriters certainly made it more memorable! It’s like how my son was astonished when I read Gandalf telling the Balrog “You cannot pass,” since “You shall not pass” is a very well known line delivery by Ian McKellen.]
Regarding the theme, you’ve actually got COPPERS PLATE and TIMES NEW ROMANS, which seems less than ideal.
12ac, COMIC: Cryptic grammar requires ‘covers’ to refer to the singular item, the group of letters ‘IOCC’. This would also produce correct English grammar in the surface, when ‘covers’ would agree with the singular band name, 10cc (although ‘cover’ is also acceptable there, in the same way that, e.g., ‘the Labour Party’, can be treated as a plural).
25 ac, CENTURY: ‘rock tune’ as an anagram indication isn’t a noun phrase but an imperative verb phrase, so the cryptic grammar is a bit wonky. Might be better as, e.g. ‘100 scream about badly-rendered tune’.
31ac, LIE-IN: would have been better with a dbe indicator for Diamond.
4dn, FRANKLIN: I don’t think we ever refer to ‘the starting to’ something to refer to it’s beginning. I think ‘beginning to learn’ works much better.
Having said all that, there were some great clues here (e.g., TIMES, SERF) and the obscure (to me, at least) MEEMIE was not too difficult to produce from the wordplay.
Anybody else try and anagram (nuts) of “roasted” in 30ac?
Eileen, thanks for parsing LIE-IN, FAVA BEAN, PERCEPTION, SERF and MEEMIE, (never heard of it) and COMMISSION.
Thanks, Qaos and Eileen (thanks for the extras!).
Re “reversing on” in 17a MINIM, I agree with FrankieG @ 50. You can read the clue in either direction, so “reversing” is not necessary, but neither is it redundant. However, the surface is much better with it, so the reverse construction improves the clue.
I’m with those who think that “on” can mean before or after in both across and down clues. This hardly makes its use unfair to solvers of cryptic clues – trying it in both places is surely not too onerous a task.
Thanks, Qaos, for the fun, and Eileen for your typically precise, informative and enjoyable blog.
Thanks @eileen and @tony – much appreciated, obvious now!
I eventually worked out MEEMIE from the clue and then looked it up. Never heard of it, so now I have the screaming abdabs…
Using ‘First Lady’ for L would be a mistake, imo (and that of a number of broadsheet crossword editors). ‘First X’ doesn’t mean the first item in X, but the first X in a series of Xs. Nevertheless, I think Qaos is (or, at least, has been) happy to promulgate this cluing error (even though he hasn’t here) and Hugh Stephenson is happy to publish examples of it.
Tony@71 and others, re: First Lady, etc: Since these cryptic crosswords appear in newspapers, I think it is entirely acceptable for setters to employ newspaper headline grammar. Leaving out words like “of” that take up valuable space is accepted headline practice (as long as the intended meaning can be readily ascertained). Setters should be given the same leeway that editors give their headline writers.
If I encounter “First Lady” I immediately think of EVE, L, or various FLOTUSes, and it is usually not too difficult to figure out what the setter is after.
Yes, Valentine@67. I spent some time working on DO (party) with anagram of roasted (same letter count) for DISCOUNTS.
I agree with Cellomaniac for the newspaper headline idea, it helps to keep clues concise.
Nobody has critcised EPIC , the clue does not say (E + C)/ PI , it says E + (C/PI) , since you cannot spli C with PI inside it, Bodmas the Bear is not amused.
Roz @74
I would not criticise EPIC for that reason. The clue has the appearance of a mathematical expression, but it is not one. The solving of the parts, and the sequence for doing so, following the cryptic grammar, must be done in whichever (valid) way gives the answer.
I agree with Alan B@75. Those “mathematical” clues that Qaos does are not meant to be regarded as actual maths. It is E and C divided (=separated) by PI. But I have to thank Roz for the reference to Bodmas the Bear, which led me to this.
Tonly C@66. ‘Diamond’ is not an example of a Neil, any more than a Neil would be an example of a Diamond. It is simply an allusive reference to a Neil. No need for a dbe signal.
And yes, ‘rock tune’ is a cryptic instruction to anagramise the letters to make ENTU in the answer, but this doesn’t make anything wonky. In the surface ‘rock’ identifies the type of tune that the hundred are screaming about, so is an adjective. This happens all the time in crossword clues and is nothing to get exercised about.
I could argue with you about ’10cc’ too, on the basis that it is not the string of letters (singular) that “covers” the M but the individual letters C, O, I and C after they have been made ‘strange’, but I don’t think I’ll bother.
Whether maths or not , the clue uses a plus sign and divide sign , these have very specific meanings and orfer of operation.
I have a teddy bear and I have sewn a Bodmas label onto him. Students making operational mistakes have to carry him around all day and look after him.
The divide sign doesn’t have to mean exactly the same thing in a crossword clue as it does in your classroom. In just the same way as Tony’s confusion between ‘rock’ meaning both disturb the letters and music with a heavy beat, surely the whole point about cryptic crosswords is the deception?
cellomaniac@72, I don’t think sub-editors strike words from headlines when their deletion would create confusion about the meaning. In the famous headline “Dr Fuchs off to North Pole”, for example, leaving out the ‘is’ and the ‘the’ doesn’t create any ambiguity.
SH@76, I think that (the well-known singer, Mr) Diamond is an example of a Neil. Why do you think he isn’t?
Yes, “rock” is adjectival in the surface, but not in the wordplay, so the clue is asking for a verbal phrase (which is not a substantive thing) to be contained within something. This is a nice point and many well-known setters ignore it, not just Qaos. I wasn’t getting exercised about the point, but was merely remarking on it.
Re 10cc, when you list the letters, you ideally need ‘and’ before the last item (as you have written). That might not be strictly necessary in a cryptic clue (see cellomaniac’s point @72), but since using ‘covers’ would obviate the need for this device and works perfectly well in both surface and wordplay, why not employ Occam’s razor?
Sheffield Hatter @78 I admire your optimism expecting deception in a Guardian crossword. As I often say to my students, if I need to explain this further , there is no point me explaining.
Tony@79. I don’t think of Diamond as an example of a Neil because it would be completely legitimate to write a clue where Neil is used to allude to Diamond. There’s no necessity for a DBE indicator where the definition and the word sought for are two parts of a person’s name.
Super puzzle, thanks, Qaos and Eileen. It was getting FRANKLIN and GOTHIC in quick succession that revealed the theme to me – one that’s right up my street.
matt w @65 – all fonts are “exclusively digital” these days! Only a handful of artisans and hobbyists are still using old-school letterpress. The distinction between font/typeface isn’t digital vs letterpress but… well, it’s not important, no one cares except hardcore pedants. Century Gothic is the sans-serif version of Century, by the way – that’s what Gothic means in this context. It’s a knock-off of the classic Futura.
Roz @74 – I would have liked the (E + C) part to be in brackets ideally, but as you say, you can’t split the letter C in the solution, which effectively resolves the matter. Still a good clue in my book.
sheffield hatter @81 it’s not unreasonable to suggest that as Neil Diamond could be identified equally by Neil or Diamond, so in some sense Neil = Diamond. But I think you’re missing the point about DBE indicators. They are used as an alert, which says ‘contrary to the basic rule of crosswords, you are not looking for a synonym of this word’. They are important when the example that is in the clue is a word with meanings. If you had Neil in the clue, that’s not going to unfairly distract anyone because it is not a word. Diamond on the hand could be all sorts of things, so should have a DBE indicator.
James @83. Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I don’t think I’ve missed the point, however. If the clue includes a word that is an example of the target word, the solver might think it unfair not to receive a hint of what’s going on. In the case of 31a we have ‘Diamond’ – with a capital D as it is the first letter of the clue. If it were rewritten as ‘Diamond, say’, wouldn’t that be potentially misleading? It’s not going to work in the same way as ‘tin, say’ might get me thinking of metal, or container. I just don’t see a large category called “people with first name Neil” of which Diamond is an example.
Yes, diamond (with or without a capital) could be all sorts of things, but I don’t think ‘Diamond, say’ is as helpful as you suppose. I actually like the way this clue works as written by Qaos. I see it as an allusive definition. ‘Diamond’ doesn’t define NEIL, obviously, but it does make us think of it. At least, it did for me.
Valentine@67 and Paddymelon@73 – yes me: I fiddled for a while with (DO + ROASTED)*. The best I could manage was “Doorstead” or “Doordates”, neither of which made any sense.
Another thought on First Lady – as a def. for EVE it’s appeared umpteen times in puzzles – maybe too many times – does anyone think it may be a bit overworked? Having said that, I’d probably use it if I had to clue up the letters -EVE-.
One might argue that according to some (controversial) scriptural interpretations the ‘First Lady’ should be Lilith. Although she wasn’t exactly a ‘Lady’ – but then again, was Eve?? I think it’d be interesting to see how LILITH could be clued. Maybe I’ll try…
James@83, thanks for your contribution to the Neil Diamond discussion, which I think is helpful.
Funnily enough, I was thinking of you when making the point about “rock tune”, as I remember a discussion about clues like this btl on the Guardian crossword blog and I seem to remember you explaining the point rather eloquently.
Laccaria@85, EVE can also be ‘second person’, suggesting the grammatical term. (Discounting Lilith again, obvs).
Sh@78, I seen to have overlooked this comment. I wasn’t in the slightest bit confused about how “rock” is being used, either superficially or cryptically. My point bears no relation whatsoever to the ‘divides’ question. Perhaps you have understood what I am trying to say following my explanation @79? If not, I really can’t be bothered to try and help you understand it. Perhaps James can make you see the light I know he understands very well exactly what it is I’m saying
SH@78, in fact, looking closely, I notice that your second sentence is ungrammatical and doesn’t really make sense. Perhaps the problem is that you don’t really understand grammar?
Good cryptic clues are really very precise in leading to their answers. They don’t just allude to them (although they may do that as well).
sheffield hatter @84 I have changed my mind a bit, on reflection. I think my previous comment rather muddled the principle of alerting solvers to a word that does not define what’s in the solution (which I agree with) and the practical point of what is helpful in any case (where, in this case, I partly agree with you).
As far as ordinary words go, using the DBE convention consistently (i.e. in every case) is, I think, a Good Thing. Crosswords don’t come with instructions – what is assumed is that the solver knows that the solution is something defined by the clue. Any deviation from that needs some sort of indicator.
But I can’t see how names fit into that scheme any more, though it seemed clear yesterday. If we were discussing the name Rishi Sunak I couldn’t have said ‘it must be “Sunak, say”‘ using the reasoning I gave for Diamond. The only reason available would be the dogmatic ‘Sunak is an example of Rishis, so it must be indicated as such.’ Apart from being of no benefit practically, it’s not obviously correct. Sunak and Rishi are both sufficient labels to identify Rishi Sunak. The Sunak=Rishi=Rishi Sunak equation is obvious. If people were in the dictionary you’d expect entries under both Rishi and Sunak to have ‘Rishi Sunak’ as a definition. In Neil Diamond’s case, neither of his names is sufficient to identify him. In the people dictionary, the only entry would be under Neil Diamond. So it’s not the same as the tin/metal example, where tin is defined as a metal, but not vice versa. I’m not sure what the conclusion is, just that the principle that works for ordinary words seems not to work consistently for names, which makes me distrust it.
An interesting and convincing analysis, James. It does seem to depend to some extent on how distinctive the names are. For example, replacing Diamond with Young in the clue we have been discussing would generate a lot more discontent, I guess.
Tony @88&89. I am sorry to see that you seem to have borrowed Roz’s claimed technique of refusing to explain something because I have failed to understand your first explanation. 🙂
Yes, I edited my 2nd sentence @78 and forgot to check that it was still grammatical. My point about referring back to ‘rock tune’ when discussing ‘divide by pi’ is that Roz was using a mathematical interpretation of the clue for 1d, just as you were seeing 25a with a grammarian’s hat on.
That clue does not actually require a verbal phrase to be included in something, as you are saying @79. It requires us to imagine having executed the instruction implied by ‘rock tune’, and then include the result within a synonym of ‘scream’.
With regard to allusive definitions, there are many very good cryptic clues that are not as precise as you say they should be. There can be great satisfaction in solving a very precise clue, but sometimes there is even more joy in seeing what the setter was getting at when alluding to an answer.
Thanks Qaos, thanks Eileen (I needed your help to parse EPIC).
I too failed on MEEMIE (nho) but it reminded me of a certain self-absorbed singer who reputedly practices thusly: “Do, Do, Do. Re, Re, Re. Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me……..”
[JinA: Only catching up now – hope your celebration was one to remember.]
Could someone please explain 5d to me? I don’t understand how “see” can give C without anything in the clue to indicate that it’s a sound-a-like. Thanks for blogging, Eileen!
Hi Rounsfell @94
It isn’t a homophone, so there’s no need for an indicator – see Chambers:
‘see³: the third letter of the alphabet (C,c)’
Thanks, Eileen! That I did not know…
You’re welcome, Rounsfell. 😉
I just looked back at this while commenting on today’s Fed. Thanks for your additional NB at the end of your introduction Eileen. I had wondered at the time why so many of the comments referring back to previous posts seemed to have the number of the post wrong – that would explain it!
SH@92, I have just been reviewing Magpie magazine’s guide to cluing for would-be setters. It includes the following:
Equivalence of wordplay and definition:
Link-words necessarily introduce a notion of equivalence between the wordplay and definition. In
clues using link-words, therefore, it is essential that the wordplay and definition are compatible, typically as nouns or noun phrases. For example, the clue “Cook ate baker’s elevenses” (with the implied link “is”) cannot clue TEA BREAK because “Cook ate baker” is an imperative, whereas “elevenses” is a noun. On the other hand, “Ate baker’s crackers for elevenses” and “Ate crackers baker cooked for elevenses” are acceptable.
It’s not exactly the same point, since “cry” and “rock tune” are both part of the wordplay, but similar.