Thanks for all the responses. Clearly the overwhelming response is a BIG THUMBS DOWN. And this idea is now dead in the water.
Hi all,
Inspired by replies 50 and 51 to my post about comment editing: click here.
I’m seeking opinions on whether it’s a feature that I should implement.
In my head I can hear arguments for and against which is why I’m putting it to the vote (so to speak). Please share your opinions.
Below is an example of how nested comments might look. Admin posted the original, kenmac posted the first reply and Albert replied and then kenmac replied to him. Then kenmac posted another comment, to which Admin replied.
And next to it is a screenshot from my phone
I think I’d be in favour. It would make it easier to pay little/less/no attention to side-points that meander away from the main topic. Do you have a screenshot of how it would look on (thinner) mobile screens?
@1
Your wish is my command. It’s to the right of the original PC screenshot.
I’ve seen that done on another cryptic blog in Australia, but I don’t like nested comments. I think it diminishes the sense of community. It then becomes multiple mini conversations and you lose the sense of the crossword as a whole and everyone’s contributions. I prefer the way we have it now on 15sq. and scrolling down.
Me@3. My experience from moving to nested comments. I left the site.
me@4. And the site now has fewer contributors and is not as enjoyable, imo.
My concern would be nests within nests within nests … making them difficult to read on mobiles
I am strongly opposed to nested comments. Everywhere I have seen them used, we end up with repetition of comments, with the same reply to multiple top-level comments. Under the present system, if (for example) comments 2 and 3 relate to the same clue, I can post a single comment which replies to both of them.
Agree Pelham Barton@7. And I would agree with anyone before you who said the same thing. 🙂
I agree with Pelham@7. Often, posts relate to more than one earlier comment.
I am against having nested comments. It complicates making and reading comments.
I am familiar with both in-line and nested comments and much prefer the former. I agree with paddymelon @3 and Pelham Barton @7 for their different but complementary reasons.
Nested comments. I vote no!
I vote for nested comments! At least on TfTT, it doesn’t descend into multiple separate conversations – most nests are just one or two comments beyond the original. That might be good fortune on that site, but it’s certainly not an inherent problem.
Given we don’t know quite how it’ll end up working/being used here – which applies to my positivity as much as others’ skepticism – how about an e.g. 1 week trial? If it’s chaos then it can just be removed, but if it works fine, then it can stay.
Nested comments are perhaps of more value on sites that have large volumes of responses. I’m not convinced it would be worthwhile here – only the daily Guardian blogs ever get enough comments for following conversations to be an issue.
But I’m happy to go with the majority either way.
Agree with PB @7
Definitely against nested comments – too confusing.
Nested comments: NO please.
I don’t like nested comments; okay if everyone knows what they are doing, I suppose, but often we don’t and threads get tangled, people get cross and other people are put off posting.
If it aint broke, don’t fix it!
I see no downside, given that we are talking about threading rather than any sort of accordion (show/hide) structure. All the comments are visible, it simply means that if I want to reply to a comment and there are intervening unrelated comments I can attach my response where it belongs. The issue with similar comments / similar replies is likely to be less rather than more pronounced if replies are not scattered randomly through a monolith. The maximum depth of nesting can be determined by the administrator to prevent protracted ‘back and forth’ exchanges.
Not to enable, or at least to trial, a feature which simply offers users an additional way to attach their comments to a post rather suggests a lack of trust in the community. The threading facility has been available on Big Dave’s site for many years and has always seemed to work extremely well.
I agree with comments 7-11 inclusive.
Yay to nested comments. They work fine on TfTT and on Big Dave.
It also allows for idiots (mercifully rare here) who try to hog, or swing wildly away from, matters at hand to be sidestepped.
I like nested comments. Nesting comments makes conversations easier to follow. How many separate conversations would a typical conversation on here turn into, realistically? Probably 3 or 4 conversations about particular clues, together with the (as now) collection of individual comments on the puzzle in general mentioning multiple clues. I think we’re all smart enough to cope.
I would prefer things to stay as they are , do not want any complications. As long as names are at the top of comments it is very easy to avoid the ones you do not wish to read .
I’m not clear about the problem we are trying to fix. On the whole this community is very good at referencing the comment/s they are replying to and its easy enough to scroll up to the source comment if I wish (I often scroll back up to the blog anyway). I also enjoy reading all comments in sequence and often dip back in to read recent additions which would be mush harder to find if they were nested.
I would like to reinforce the final point made by Paul@24. With the present structure one can easily see which comments have been added since one last looked. With the nested structure this requires more effort, possibly enough to deter people from coming back.
I agree that Paul makes a very good point about late additions, I often just look at the comment number the day after , a few days for Azed , and new comments will always be at the end.
Nested comments can get messy. One site to whose forums I contribute uses different colours, and after multiple messages becomes a rainbow-hued jumble. Too many contributors requote without editing out any irrelevant bits.
Oh, and if we’re going to have avatars, I’ll need to spend hours deciding on a flattering photo. 🙂
I too vote no to nesting. I agree with Eileen@20 and Roz@23and26 (surprise, surprise). Paddymelon@3-5, Pelham Barton@7 and Paul, Tutukaka@24 make very good arguments for the status quo.
Having to type somelongname@29 is a pain. How about: allow comments but without nesting, to avoid that bit of typing. Just put the comment at the end, but insert the name@number automatically.
Another for keeping the status quo for the reasons cited above.
I’m another who does not enjoy nested comments. I encounter them when I visit BD/NTSPP/RC and they are actually a feature of MyCrossword for which I have a lot of time and respect. But tracking down where new comments have appeared, in which conversation and along which thread is messy and time confusing. And I use a lap-top; it’s far more difficult tracking these things on a mobile screen.
I vote against nested comments too – the longest threads here are the Guardian blogs, which sometimes reach 100 odd posts, usually discussing a few challenging words. I still find them easier to read in a line, because I can find new comments and can see from the number there are more.
I don’t use another forum I’m signed up to which is nested, because when I do comment and get responses I can’t find them to read, even scrolling back on a laptop. I get the notifications, but life is too short to scroll back through hundreds of posts to find my original comment.
I’m not sure what you’d gain from nesting quotes on the shorter threads, which often don’t get more than 20-25 posts (I’m thinking of the FT blogs).
There seems to be a majority against introducing nested comments and I think I agree with the majority. Avoiding nested comments keeps the focus on the puzzle and I have no problem working through the comments as they are. We have a simple convention to refer to a previous comment where necessary. Leave well alone.
Fully agree with Shanne@32 and Paul, Tutukaka@24 and Roz@ 26 about the numbering and later replies and scrolling back, finding easily what you’re looking for, and other interesting comments along the way. As for long handles, I have one, I’m sorry, but people abbreviate, or do as I did with Paul, Tutukaka now, cut and paste.
There is also a risk, with nested comments, that many of the replies could be from the same person, those with notifications, or awake all hours of day and night, or just keen, and it reduces the confidence of others who may bring something fresh.
I think 15squarers, being such a global community, also understand the time zones. The colonials and UK insomniacs get in first until the rest wake up. Then others come in. With nesting we would lose that flow and awareness of the development of the solving over time, building on what’s gone on before, fresh revelations about cultural and cryptocruciverbal experience. And there are others who like to, or need to, take time to solve the crossie and come back a few days later. I love it. Please don’t change.
Why not follow the example of the Graun and allow the reader to choose between Collapsed, Expanded, and Unthreaded?
My preference would be to retain linear comments.
Thanks for asking – so many sites foist ‘improvements’ on users which turn out to be anything but.
My vote is for keeping things as they are. Most posts on 225 don’t refer to just one issue. Plus the linear/chronological approach is easier to follow.
In general I am fine with nested comments but I agree with Paul, Tutukaka@24 that we do fine at fifteensquared without nested comments.
I was also interested to read Blaise @35 – I did not realise that is possible.
As the proposer of nested comments (for it was I), I can see the downsides pointed out by many, though I’m still not entirely convinced. I don’t much like having to pick an avatar though, so if that could be avoided I’d be more in favour.
Full disclosure: I moderate a technical mailing list where threading is the standard practice. This is highly beneficial in that context, but of course 15^2 is a different use case and so the balance may be different. I found nesting useful on the TftT site and so suggested it as a possible alternative here but it’s not a hill to die on.
Please keep things as they are
Apart from the mechanics and ease of reading, another factor to consider might be the effect of allowing replies on people’s commenting behaviour. If replying is easier, and more direct, aren’t more people likely to do it? This might lead to more interesting discussions. It might equally lead to a lot of superfluous agreeing and more dispute, but of those two downsides it seems to me that the first already exists, and the second is reasonably well controlled by users.
Would a partial roll-out be possible? Eg trying it on the FT blog only?
I’m with cellomaniac@28 and later anti-nest comments. I don’t find the Guardian’s ‘solution’ very satisfactory. Please let’s stick with something that already works pretty well: there is a real danger of Verschlimmbesserung here.
Another vote for keeping things as they are, for all the reasons described above.
Also, as a blogger, I find it easy to keep track of comments on my posts by looking at the end of the list, or following the email notifications; I think this would be more work with nested comments. I see Eileen has contributed above; any other bloggers reading this? (Sorry if I’ve missed your name.) Because we need to consider the impact on us as well as on those commenting.
[And Jill @42, thanks for introducing me to a wonderful word I never knew I needed.]
I’m happy with the un-nested status quo. It is easy to find new comments if they are just appended to the end of the existing list. I can always refer back if needed.
I’m against nesting. I don’t think the daily number of posts makes it worthwhile. Also, on days when I make multiple returns to the site to see how a discussion is progressing, it’s easy to just start at the last post you read.
I’m happy with the way things are at the mo. I agree with Paul Tutukaka@24 – and also Paddymelon’s observation (@34) about time-zones.
And I’d like to echo Simon S@36: thank you for asking our opinions, rather than simply deciding to impose something.
I am happy with the comment format as it is.
It’s a no to nesting for me.
Thanks for this opportunity to vote. Democracy rules.
It’s a no to nesting from us too.
We only have nested comments on TfTT because we wanted to copy the LiveJournal experience; that was what our users were used to.
Some of the arguments do get a little tedious. Fortunately, we have only a few nitpicking debaters. You can always set the reply levels at whatever makes you happy – maybe four or five, if you want to avoid long disputes.
Does anyone on here use Ravelry? I love their way of dealing with comments.
You can reply to the thread, which just puts your reply at the bottom of the list.
You can reply to an individual post, which still puts your reply at the bottom of the list but tags it with “reply to [username]”. That tag is clickable and expands [username]’s comment in place so you can see it without having to scroll up.
The original comment also gets tagged with “n replies” – that is clickable and expands to show the first few lines of each reply (and you can click the post number to navigate straight to that post).
But I do realise that there must be a helluva lot of clever programming behind that system.
That sounds very elegant Lin and appears to resolve the concerns raised. Programming does seem complex but maybe its already available as a WordPress plug-in? Still curious to understand the problem with the status quo.
@50
I had a look at Ravelry but I found it a little confusing. Is there any post in particular that I should look at?
Lin@50: I’m not familiar with Ravelry, but that sounds interesting. I was about to suggest an intermediate solution wherein one could click on a comment to reply but the reply would be appended to the end of the blog (rather than nested), which would perhaps allay the fears of some. This looks like it would meet the case, with some extra features.
I vote no to nested (and thank you for consulting users).
@Admin
Yes, Ravelry can be an overwhelming place at first.
Try this thread, there’s only 7 comments in total (so far)
https://www.ravelry.com/discuss/for-the-love-of-ravelry/4295932
On post #1 you can see the “2 replies” thing on the right.
Clicking that expands the 2 replies in situ. Clicking again toggles them off.
If you scroll down the thread you’ll see posts marked “reply to [username]’s post #n” (on the left) and you can click that to view the post they’re replying to. I forgot to mention yesterday that you can click the “reply to” in the pop-up as well to track all the way back up the thread.
Note: Nobody has clicked the “reply to thread” in this, they’ve all replied to a specific post, but that would just add something to the bottom with no backtracking.
If it doesn’t behave like this for you there’s possibly something in my settings that I changed so long ago I can’t remember, but I can’t see anything obvious right now.
I think the point made by MikeC@37 has not really been given enough support. Common practice on this site is to refer to a number of different clues within a single comment. Replies are not then to a comment, but to a single remark within a comment. Of course, the remedy is simple. If we go to any sort of nested style, I will make each separate point in its own comment. This will mean that much more space is taken up. I have no fear of having to do this, but I regard it as an inconvenience.
Is there a function to allow collapsing of the nested replies? If so, I’d be in favour
Pelham @56 I don’t think anybody is suggesting that you wouldn’t still be allowed to group a bunch of replies in a single comment if you so desired.
I generally don’t mind nested comments elsewhere BUT this whole discussion has made me realise that they suit some kinds of site / interaction much better than others (e.g. it works great on MyCrossword mostly because it allows for ‘spoilers’ to be in a reply that is, by default, not displayed).
But here I think things work really well exactly as they are, for a couple of reasons mentioned already.
So I’m on Team Status Quo on this one 🙂 Thanks for consulting us!
Looking at Ravelry I see it has nearly 4 million users with a variety of interests within crochet and knitting so nesting might be useful on that site. Fifteensquared has a smaller user base and as noted the Independent and FT threads rarely have more than 20 or so comments so are easy to scan. The Guardian thread has more comments but this is partly due to people not having read previous comments/answers so nesting wouldn’t really help.
I too am in the “happy with the status quo” camp. The KISS principle works for me (very much a non techie and know that’s not going to change at this stage). Have never managed to operate the Ravelry site with any degree of ease or pleasure – far too confusing.
Kudos and thanks for the democratic approach.
All for it, as long as you can also collapse posts.
Cheers
No nested comments please, for all the reasons stated above.
Late to this party but I’d definitely prefer to leave as is. The guardian blog maybe if you can hide a thread going nowhere but the others would be ruined.
Hadn’t thought about this before. As a fairly infrequent visitor who comes on here to look for elucidation of, or comment on, specific points in a puzzle, but who usually ends up thinking ‘I’d rather be here than on the Guardian page’, I think it’s very good as it is. Scrolling to look for a thread in separated comments (or, later in the day, looking for replies to what I’ve written) often leads to finding something unexpected and interesting, with further insights. I think I’d go for keeping it as it is, but it’s really more for regulars to say.
If there were any hope of returning the Guardian blog to its status as a reliable and accessible record of discussion about the particular crossword, this would be an excellent feature. It is not easy to pick out the thread of an interesting discussion from the chaff of biographical detail about whether a theme was spotted or words that have never been heard of, or “can I add my name to those who …” comments.
What might be more constructive would be to run two Guardian blogs each day – an “anything goes” one (that might be deleted after a couple of days) and one where there is proper observance of the Site Policies and the Comment Guidelines that Gaufrid introduced in 2020, but about which there seems little current awareness.
Markoncan@61, what is the “KISS principle”?
Tony @67
KISS = Keep it simple, stupid – which was coined many years ago, probably in the US. It was fashionable for a short time during my working life.
Like Kormonik@65, I am in an infrequent visitor and rare commentor. However, I hope my input might be welcome. Like much in life, the comment section cannot be all things to all people. I appreciate Van Winkle@66 highlighting the comment guidelines.
The linear comments have many quirky benefits, but I think importantly lend a rather egalitarian feel to the community. Everyone is welcome (within the rules) and while there are familiar names in the comments, there is not a sense of a clique within a clique, and that is rather lovely. Anyone can chime in anywhere, without feeling like they are interrupting. I would be concerned that nesting comments would lead to more ring-fenced conversations between smaller groups that may be less inviting to the occasional visitors such as my self.
Nested comments? No way!