Guardian 29,569 – Imogen

90 comments on “Guardian 29,569 – Imogen”

1. Rather a long “Huh?” list today. I’d not heard of a DEUTERON, Dorothy Sayers, DROP SCONE, Beria, GOOSEBERRY FOOL, “gooseberry” in this “British informal” sense (according to Collins), rec for a park. I didn’t fully parse ADVERB. Never heard of OPPOS — but I have twice now, as it’s in another of today’s puzzles.

2. GDU @1. REC for a park or playing field comes up regularly – one to remember, which I did for once today. I was defeated by DEUTERON. Thanks to Imogen and Andrew

3. DROP SCONE you would know as a Pikelet GDU @1. 🙂

4. I have a M.Sc. in Physics and a continuing interest in the field, but 16 was still my LOI because ‘a tiny bit’ by no means made me think of the answer. Also, 12 might be an Aussie expression but it took me a while and some crossers to think of it.

5. Had pikelets with butter and honey for breakfast, but yes drop scone is familiar. Took ages to click taking O my! off the end of the book (bible not my strong suit). Nice smooth one from Imogen, ta, and to Andrew too.

6. This was a bit harder. If people consider a Big Mac a “snack” it explains a lot. Bravo to everyone (anyone?) who leapt to deuteron from “a tiny bit.” Thanks. Enjoyed it.

7. This was pretty rough for me, though in hindsight I’m not sure why. As I hadn’t heard of either a gooseberry as an intruder or a GOOSEBERRY FOOL as a dessert, that one was my last one in. I also had never heard of SOOTY the TV character. Both of those were in the “put it in from the crossers, hit the check button, and shrug” category.

8. Andrew – your summation matched mine… slow going. All fair but not quite on the wavelength today. Ho hum.

9. Phew, got there, but had to use a word finder for DEUTERON & TRANSCENDENTAL.

   I wonder why old was felt necessary in the SECOND-HAND SHOP clue? The clue seems to work perfectly well without it.

   Also struggled a little with the idea of a BIG MAC being a snack. I’m sure I’d struggle to manage one.

   Satisfying to fill the grid, though. Many thanks, both.

10. Thanks Imogen and Andrew, quite tricky in places.

11. Just about the perfect puzzle, if such a thing exists.
    For me, a good cryptic clue is one where it’s blatantly obvious that the setter is trying to mislead me, but I get totally mizzled anyway.
    Imogen is mizzler-in-chief.

    Raised eyebrow for 3(down) as a plural, but no, I was wrong. MARIACHI is a single musician (noun), but also the same noun for an ensemble of them, so perfectly correct.
    One of those oddities of language.
    I tried hard to find a clue that I didn’t like, but failed.
    Maybe “beria” in IBERIAN, at 2(down)? Nobody’s perfect.

    Great stuff, Imogen & Andrew

12. Ah, drop scones. The baked good with more aliases than ingredients 😉

13. If your and/or your kids watched SOOTY and Sweep, that was barely cryptic – but if you didn’t… (we did). I’m sure DEUTERON came up not that long ago (but before Roz left us?) – it was still my LOI. In my one encounter with a Big Mac, I was astounded at how small it was (not to mention horrible to eat). I didn’t get many of the acrosses on first pass, so thank goodness for the SECOND-HAND SHOP and the GOOSEBERRY FOOL (I knew both senses). Fools – stewed fruit mixed with whipped cream – are delicious and simple. Thanks, Imogen and Andrew.

14. Martin @6: apologies for the apparent repetition, slow typist.

15. William@9, Perhaps the ‘old’ in the clue for SECOND-HAND SHOP is because it wouldn’t be for a digital clock. I’m another one who started slowly, with only LASSO, SOOTY and MARCO POLO on my first pass through the across clues. However, a satisfying puzzle ultimately as all the clues were fair and didn’t need any over-esoteric knowledge to complete, though I suspect TRANSCENDENTAL numbers is not a familiar term to most non-mathematicians. BIG MAC took overlong as I’d fixated on something like ‘dim sum’ before seeing the obvious. Thanks to Imogen and Andrew.

16. Thanks Imogen and Andrew
    Sorry Andrew and others – I thought that Imogen had sent Vulcan out in his place. One of my quickest solves for some time, helped by immediately writing in the 1s. Enjoyable all the same.
    Two quibbles: old police chief would have been fairer in 2d, and why “great” in 23d? Quite the reverse, considering his in-ring antics, I would have thought.

17. Put in ‘tally’ unparsed. I usually enjoy Imogen’s puzzles, but not this one.

18. An enjoyable puzzle, covering quite a range of topics / knowledge.

    I didn’t know what a TRANSCENDENTAL number or a DEUTERON was but
    I enjoyed getting both from the wordplay – lovely clues.

    Other ticks were for ADVERB, SHINTOIST, MARCO POLO and GOOSEBERRY FOOL (delicious).

    I was taken aback when I saw references to (Australian) ‘pikelets’ from Tim C and grantinfreo and could foresee something of a discussion brewing and so I was amused by Elaine’s comment @12. I reckon we could use a Venn diagram or two here. Here in the English Midlands, pikelets are what are more widely known as crumpets. – as a child, I was told that my uncle, who worked in a bakery, had the job of making the holes in them with a matchstick. Drop scones, in Northern Ireland and Scotland, would be pancakes. And that’s only for starters. Some might jib at scone = cake, not to mention whether the jam or cream should go on first …

    Thanks to Imogen and Andrew.

19. Eileen @18…. the (apparently) dreaded Chambers 😉 gives…
    pikelet
    noun
    A kind of teacake, or crumpet, or muffin (dialect)
    A drop scone (Aust and NZ)

    I’d call them drop scones but I’ve learnt to moderate my language since arriving on these shores as a reffo. 😉 From my childhood, pancakes were the size of a dinner plate, best enjoyed with lemon juice and caster sugar from my mum’s sugar sifter which I still have.

    I love the idea of a matchstick crumpet hole maker btw. 🙂

20. Eileen @18 I call them DROP SCONES, make them fairly regularly, and often have to explain them as Scotch pancakes – they turn up as that or American pancakes. I thought pikelets in the UK were different again, not quite crumpets.

    DEUTERON was my only really sticky one, which needed all the crossers – I didn’t find it much harder than Monday’s Vulcan.

    Thank you to Andrew and Imogen.

21. [Tim C @19
    In Peter Sellers’s great monologue “Balham, Gateway to the South“, one of the inhabitants has the job of drilling the holes in toothbrushes for the bristles.]

22. I’m well aware of all the dictionary definitions of these various teatime delights – it’s great fun to google any one of them. I just love the regional varieties that get thrown up here – and I was feeling a bit mischievous.

    Tim C @19 – that’s the absolutely only way to enjoy (real) pancakes. 😉 Every Shrove Tuesday, I wonder why I don’t have them all the year round and, just the other day, I did give myself a treat.

    (Thanks for that, muffin – one of my favourites (used to be on Family Favourites quite a bit).

23. @18 Eileen In my section of your Venn diagram, crumpets and pikelets are a well-worked flour and water batter leavened with yeast and soda, crumpets pan-cooked in a ring for depth, pikelets without the ring. Drop scones are an underworked flour, egg and soda batter enriched with fat and sweetened, spoonfuls pan-cooked for a light, fluffy pancake.

24. I had HANDHOLD as I don’t think that handheld is the right part of speech for the gesture.
    Not that handhold works that much better for the phone.

25. [From my upbringing in Lancashire, pikelets are those thin flattened crumpets – and now sold as such in M&S – while I knew drop scones as Scotch pancakes.]

26. Tomsdad @15 – might a “digital” clock have fingers rather than hands? I’ll get me coat.

27. Not as tough as Imogen can be but still tricky in places. TRANSCENDENTAL held out for a long time and, in turn, held up LOI DEUTERON. It took ages before I realised what was happening with the ‘O MY’ and I was not confident of the def but did recall ‘deuterium’ – heavy water – so bunged in the answer and hoped it was something to do with atoms, fortunately getting close enough.

    Thanks Imogen and Andrew

28. Agree with muffin @16 that this was more Vulcanesque and very enjoyable too. No idea about DEUTERON and TRANSCENDENTAL but not too difficult to work out from the wordplay. Surely the jam before the cream?

    Ta Imogen & Andrew

29. PostMark @27
    Close, but not quite. Deuterium is actually “heavy hydrogen” rather than “heavy water”; the latter has deuterium instead of hydrogen. It is sometimes given the formula D2O, though it isn’t normal to give isotopes different chemical symbols.
    A hydrogen atom is a proton and an electron. A deuterium atom also has a neutron. Its nucleus is the DEUTERON – i.e. a proton and a neutron.

30. RH side was more difficult for me. I failed to solve 16d DEUTERON. Although I was raised and schooled as an Anglican, I am very weak on references to the Christian bible now.

    As an Australian I know of pikelets being mini pancakes made with baking powder. I used to cook them many decades ago as my mother enjoyed them as an afternoon or evening snack.

    I don’t eat anything from junk food chains but I agree with Andrew – I would have imagined that a Big Mac is more than a snack. I also agree with Martin@6 – ” If people consider a Big Mac a “snack” it explains a lot.” Isn’t a burger considered a full meal?

    I could parse 27ac but did not know about the existence of transcendental numbers and don’t understand them even after reading the definition. Not something I need to know!

    Favourites: TELLY, DROP SCONE.

    New GK for me: Lavrentiy Beria, one of Joseph Stalin’s secret police chiefs; detective writer Dorothy L. Sayers; Nigerian NAIRA; MO = Missouri.

    New word for me: HARD YARDS; GOOSEBERRY = intruder / an unwanted single person in a group of couples, esp a third person with a couple.

31. No way is a Big Mac a snack when their own advertising calla it a meal. How is a recorder a judge? I found these two unacceptable.

32. Anna @24 you have to ignore the comma, so “affectionate gesture given” = “hand held”, then since this is the wordplay not the definition you can make it one word to get the answer.

33. I agree with most comments so won’t repeat them. Am I alone in finding 17 across distasteful?

34. Anna @ 31 A recorder is a part-time judge in the English legal system, so is fine.

35. Anna @31 – The Recorder of London is a specific judge – other recorders exist.

36. Thanks Simon. Another British reference that has not made it to this antipodean.

37. [AlanC @28 – I thought I’d written my final word on scones but …

    That’s the Cornish way. I’ve always gone along with the Devonians on this, regarding the cream as taking the place of butter – and I’ve just found that borne out here:
    https://metro.co.uk/2024/08/19/scientists-finally-revealed-whether-put-cream-jam-first-scones-21447575/

    I’m going out now!]

38. Anna@24: I had the same thought, but it works if you take the alternative definition as “affectionate gesture given”.

39. SueB @33 – no, you’re not alone; I thought it a horrible clue, in an otherwise enjoyable puzzle.

40. [Eileen @37: those pesky scientists get everywhere 😊 ]

41. muffin @29: you have the advantage of being a scientist. The basis for my knowledge is old war movies about saboteurs attempting to disrupt the German atomic bomb efforts in Norway. And I was watching those as a youngster. The finer points of the science, if covered, failed to register.

42. Thought this challenging in places, but a rewarding solve, though at first I had to rely on some helpful anagrams to begin to fill the grid. Thought DEUTERON very clever, and liked the tasty DROP SCONE. Misdirection of LASSO good as well. Do some Europeans refer to themselves as IBERIANs ever? Last one in the cleverly disguised RECORDER, though once again didn’t suss the misdirection in TELLY for a while, and was scratching my head over my pencilled in Tally before the light bulb moment with “box”. Really enjoyed this….

43. Really enjoyed this, thank you Imogen and Andrew. First ever solve without looking anything up. Loved drop scone, transcendental, telly and sooty. LOI was deuteron, I nearly jumped up and down when I worked it out. As I am invigilating an exam at present, this would not have been a good idea.

44. …in too much of a hurry, hadn’t read the preceding comments, but NICEST was in fact the one clue I couldn’t quite parse, I meant to say, and can see why perhaps one might take exception to the way it has been clued, looking at some of those comments…

45. Much of this was challenging but I seemed to be near enough on the right wavelength: from the wordplay I was able to enter what for me were obscurities (TRANSCENDENTAL being well-clued without me knowing the definition as blogged above), without too much trouble.

    Perhaps an open contradiction but this felt like a quicker solve than some more straightforward puzzles.

46. PostMark @41
    The heroes of Telemark?
    Heavy water was produced in Norway because the method at the time was just to electrolyse water – the normal water molecules moved faster so were preferentially removed, concentrating the heavy water. This required vast amounts of electricity, so Norway’s hydroelectric power was critical.

47. Mostly a steady solve for me, helped by having all the necessary GK. The parsing of 6D escaped me, although I was happy to recall that box is often TV in crosswordland.

    LOI was 16D. Even with all the crossers it took a little while. The definition is a little vague, but the construction is clever.

48. My first thought on “drop scones” was “that isn’t a cake, it’s more like a Scotch pancake. Oh, yeah, cake.” Kind of hard to argue when it is in the name!

    I wasn’t keen on deuteron – what is it a little bit of? It’s a little thing, for sure, but I cannot think of a time when I would use “a bit” to mean “a small object” rather than “a small part of”. Perhaps someone can help with a good example?

    I was surprised to read that “hard yards” is Australian as I had understood the country to be significantly more metric than the UK, but perhaps it indicates how the older units are still useful for metaphor and metonym (and rather more elegant – the “hard metres” doesn’t quite roll off the tongue). As a scientist I abhor old units for calculations but freely admit they have a useful role in everyday life.

49. I agree with Muffin @16: Imogen & Vulcan seem to have swapped – for I plodded slowly through Monday’s and zipped through most of this. Most.
    BIG MAC held me up for ages. I’ve seen these beggars at close-quarters, and only “someone overweight” would call them a snack.
    I’m also with Muffin regarding Beria: “old” would have been kind. (Then again, kind isn’t an adjective one associates with him. Nor, for that matter, with crossword setters) – likewise, TYSON certainly isn’t “great”.
    And hearty thanks to Muffin, Elaine, Eileen et al for making my mouth water. Here in la France profonde, what I miss most are crumpets and toasted teacakes – with fruit scones a close third. (Jam first, cream on top, natch!). Yes I know I can stuff myself with croissants and p’tit chocos – but the way the butter dribbles onto one’s fingers through the crumpet’s holes……

50. Great puzzle – not much to add to the earlier comments. DEUTERON is clever, and took me a while to spot. I enjoyed all of the long peripherals.

    I would consider a BIG MAC to be a ‘substantial meal’ (remember the scotch egg controversy during the pandemic? 🙂 ).

    SueB @33: Perhaps I’m just insensitive, but the word itself doesn’t bother me (though, unlike the Hapsburgs, I find the practice distasteful). Context is everything – I don’t object to words and expressions in crosswords that I would be wary of using in speech, or which have unpleasant connotations.

    [My family’s homemade jam always had a very firm set, so was more viscous than clotted cream. Consequently I am a jam-first man, so yah boo ‘scientists’ 🙂 ]

    Thanks to Imogen and Andrew

51. [Eileen @37
    The link was to a site that wouldn’t let me view without turning off my adblocker, which I have no intention of doing. What was the conclusion? (Though, in fact, of little interest to me, as scones, jam, and cream are far too sweet for me either way round!)
    btw is there a regional or class variation in the pronunciation of “scone”? In my family (in Devon, in fact) it was always “sconn”, never “s cone”.]

52. [muffin@51: some years ago we were in Scotland and went to Scone Palace. In the tea room afterwards, we of course ordered scones with jam and cream. I asked the waiter what the correct way to pronounce the food ‘scone’ was – thinking we would get it from a local’s mouth… but she said “well, it could be sconn or s-cone”. Not helpful! For information, my family always said the former. And pikelets were small pancakes.]

53. [Thanks Tassie Tim. I think the palace is pronounced “scoon”!]

54. Imogen puts on his Father Christmas outfit and turns into Vulcan. I for one am very happy with his transformation.

55. [I asked the maid in dulcet tone/ To order me a buttered scone/ The silly girl has been and gone/ And ordered me a buttered scone]

56. Bit of an eye-roll when I saw the setter as I always struggle with Imogen. Slow going but got 3/4s through before having to wave the white flag. Some difficult clues but an “ahhh” rather than an “oh!?” when I got them.

    Going to put it in the success column as usually I barely make a dent with Imogen. I think I am getting her style a little bit more.

    NICEST for the rather risqué clueing probably a favourite.

57. [Staticman1 @56
    For future reference, Imogen is actually a “he”! He also sets as Vulcan on “easy Mondays”, hence the references to Vulcan in the posts here.]

58. LOL Xjpotter @55!
    That was fun, apart from Deutron which I failed to get.

59. [[ Muffin – and other chemists:
    Imagine two benzene derived molecules. The first has two fully deuterated phenyl groups on the benzene ring positions 1 and 2. The second has them in positions 1 and 4.
    How would you describe these two molecules? ]]

60. …..and cannot, in any event, spell it would seem……

61. [Wellcidered @59
    I feel that there’s a joke coming, but I can’t see it!
    1,2 would be ortho, 1,4 para. 1,2 might not be possible, though, because of steric hindrance – the phenyl groups would be too close to each other.]

62. I assume that Staticman1@56 had not read previous comments about how distasteful the clue for NICEST was, and “rather risqué clueing” is probably an understatement, if it’s not deliberately provocative. ‘Keeping it in the family’, with it the familiar crossword staple for sex is a little more than risqué, I reckon. I had to read it again, as I couldn’t believe my eyes at first.

    That aside I found this smoother than the average Imogen on the whole, though I was held up by IBERIAN, having lifted and separated ‘police chief’ at first. Failed totally on DEUTERON, only realising after coming here that I had also failed to get it last time it was clued. (Doh!) As others have said, ‘a tiny bit’ is about as unhelpful a definition as Imogen could have contrived. A little bit of pikelet, perhaps?

    Thanks to setter and blogger.

63. @56 Cheers, everyday is a school day. Those previous comments make sense now.

64. [[[ Muffin: If a fully Deuterated Phenyl group is written as PhD, then the first would be orthodocs…… ]]]

65. @64 🙂

66. Re: NICEST. I think it is ok to use words that describe distasteful practices. We’re playing with letters and words here, not practising or endorsing what the words mean. There are plenty of foodstuffs I find distasteful, but don’t see why they can’t be fodder for puzzles (pun intended).

67. Dr.W@66. I agree. It was the tone of the clue that made me look at it twice. It’s all very well to include the word INCEST or an allusion to it in the clue, but the jocular nature of ‘Keeping it in the family’ was what seemed a little off colour. It is after all not just a crime but a taboo!

68. Thanks both and, as often with Imogen, a dnf (but no complaints – just not my day).

    I fear that this may overtake ‘Ludwig-gate’ as the most controversial puzzle of the year. Fwiw I see a pikelet as an unrestrained muffin and both require preparation involving yeast and strong flour (and patience). Pancakes are not in any sense scones and drop scones are akin to pancakes only in that they are both leavened with NaC2 and (shall we say) ‘cream’ flour is preferred. But scones are then baked in an oven (having been ‘dropped’ without ceremony onto a baking tray). My expertise in this area is founded on long experience – I can just about conjure a pancake but not any of the others. (I’ve tried, I have tried.)

69. Having been to see Oedipus at the theatre on Monday the offending one was quite easy!

    Changing subject slightly, do we know whether Everyman continues and how we will access it in new-Observer land?

70. [Eileen @ 37 I think the last word on this was said by Jack Dee at the end of the intro to this week’s I’m Sorry I Haven’t A Clue]

71. And which side of the new Guardian/Observer border will our present Crossword Editor and Everyman setter end up on? Either a new editor for the Guardian stable or a new setter for the Everyman.

72. Rec is short for Recreation Ground – I spent hours on the swings in one as a child. It had a football pitch and children’s playground, and was much smaller than the nearby Park, which had formal gardens and a boating lake .

73. Xjpotter @55: I’ll see your doggerel and raise the Bet-jeman:

    Milk and then just as it comes dear?
    I’m afraid the preserve’s full of stones;
    Beg pardon, I’m soiling the doileys
    With afternoon tea-cakes and scones.

74. Then of course there’s the Stone of Scone (pronounced Skoon), known as The Coronation Stone, a slab of sandstone on which the monarchs of Scotland had been crowned since medieval times…

75. Two shy yesterday and one shy today…one of these days I’ll remember that song = air, but it wasn’t today! Does anyone in real life actually use “air” in that way?

    Thanks Imogen and Andrew

76. Stuart @75, in traditional music there is the “slow air”, but that’s a reference to a tune, not to any associated lyrics (which may or may not exist).

77. This was nice for a Wednesday cryptic.

    I did not get GOOSEBERRY (but got FOOL), ADVERB, and YARDS (but got HARD). The IBERIAN one was funny – the last police chief anybody would want to invite.

    Thanks, Imogen and Andrew.

78. Stuart @75
    Londonderry Air? Bach’s (misnamed) Air on a G string?

79. Thanks Muffin @78

    I’ve never heard of Londonderry Air (is that the same as ‘Aris?!) but research shows I clearly know the tune. I do know Air on a g string. I guess I thought the word meant ‘tune’ if I thought about it at all 🙂

80. Happy to get TRANSCENDENTAL from wordplay. Oblivious to the maths. Thought number was slang for a drug.

    I remembered an earlier very similar entertaining discussion here about DROP SCONES and the regional variations which actually helped with the solve.

    I understand the comments about “incest” simply being a word that forms part of a clue. But I’m with sheffield hatter regarding the word it for sex which is usually used in a playful or humorous way. Incest is a violation. Nothing funny about that.

81. Incest is unwise and illegal in most jurisdictions, but not necessarily a violation if it occurs between adults. The last Habsburg king of Spain, Charles II, was the son of an uncle-niece marriage, not the first one in the family, and many of his forebears were the result of first cousin or even double first cousin unions. Papal dispensation was required, of course. Not surprisingly, he was plagued with ill health and died young without direct heirs – prompting the War of the Spanish Succession

82. Breezed through this in 35 minutes, but please don’t ask me how or why because I have no clue – unless I just happened to be on Imogen’s wavelength today. I guess it helped that I am old enough to have heard of both Beria and SOOTY. My favourite could have been several here but for me NAIRA just shades it. 17ac was more Paulian than Paul himself I thought – I wonder if that one was slipped in there in order to see if the Crossword Editor was awake ? If so, I think we know the answer ! Thanks to Andrew and to Imogen.

83. Finally got to the puzzle and the blog.

    Stuart@79 You probably have heard Londonderry Air under its other name. It’s “Danny Boy.”

    What do you call a benzene ring with MD at positions 1,2 or 1,3 or 1,4?
    Orthodocs, paradocs and metaphysicians.

84. DEUTERON only fell into place at 01.35, a real talaroc (took as long as rest of crossword ). Most enjoyable, thank you Imogen and Andrew.

85. Yes it took me a while, thus my late post. I did really enjoy 12a HARD YARDS and the clever trick in 16d DEUTERON (O MY)! which (as for some others) took me forever to see.
    Warm thanks to Imogen and Andrew.

86. Learnt here that Imogen is a man’s name, Imogene (Cunningham – a great photographer) is (was?) a woman.

87. Was – she died in 1976

88. Sorry, looks like she was lmogen too!

89. As a newbie learning through predominantly Shanne’s blog, I found this fairly accessible, very enjoyable and completed nearly a quarter of it unaided, so was absolutely delighted.

90. Pleased to get a lot of unfamiliar words, including NAIRA, HARD YARDS, OPPOS, and DROP SCONE, for me a sign of good quality clueing

    In a similar vein, I should have gotten DEUTERON and RECORDER, but couldn’t quite tease them out

    All this talk of scones, crumpets, and pancakes is making me hungry, with Shrove Tuesday just around the corner!

Comments are closed.