Guardian 29,732 – Tramp

83 comments on “Guardian 29,732 – Tramp”

1. A pleasant end to a sometimes tricky week, with some pleasingly concise cluing, as Andrew points out. I particularly enjoyed LEGIT, TREASURED, NOGGIN and IMPOSTERS. I share the quibblet about 2d, which of course brings to mind the hoary chestnut, when is a door not a door? When it’s a jar. OK, I’ll get me coat… Thanks to Tramp and Andrew

2. Thanks Andrew: I had not fully parsed ODORIZED being too fixated on removing ‘a’ from CAGE rather than removing the cage from AREA and finding myself with not quite the fodder I needed. I agree that IMPOSTERS has a lovely surface and would add TERMINUS, TREASURED, REBORN and DASHES to that for much the same reason. Amusing to see a clutch of risqué surfaces too of which EXCLAMATION was my favourite: a lovely spot.

   Thanks Tramp and Andrew

3. I’ve never come across the term ELEVATOR PITCHES before – I got it from the crossers and guessing the first word would be ‘elevator’, and didn’t really parse ‘pitches’ though I now see how it works.
   Favourites include DENTISTS, PARA, IMPOSTERS, and I agree the clues are mostly nicely concise.
   I think I’ve seen both LEGIT and CLUE several times before with very similar wordplay.
   Thanks Andrew and Tramp.

4. Thanks Tramp and Andrew
   I too was puzzled by PITCHES and still don’t understand – what are elevator pitches? (I had tried buttons!)
   Favourite TREASURED for the misleading Tramp.
   OK, Google has told me what they are, but I still don’t see why it’s “changing stories”. Google says they are brief introductions.

5. Thanks Andrew. I still don’t understand ELEVATOR PITCHES, despite looking it up.

   Thanks, also Tramp

6. One does a fair bit of 17-ing doing these things, with mixed success. Fly for alert or canny still takes a while to surface, and gooseberry (a sort of de trop, third wheel thing, I’m guessing) I’ve seen only once or twice. Also, dnk that stories was US for storeys, so that bit was a que? and shrug. And agree, Andrew, can = jar is a “that’ll do”, unless there’s another context …
   Enjoyable though, ta T and A.

7. I agree that it’s a bit of a shame about the clue for 2. A jar is not a can, Otherwise, I join in the plaudits for some elegant clues. Liked EXCLAMATIONS, NOGGIN and ROTUND. I think LEGIT and DENTISTS have appeared before clued similarly, but that doesn’t detract from a nicely inventive crossword. Thanks to blogger and setter.

8. I suppose “lines used when changing stories” is the literal rather than metaphorical meaning. I don’t like it!

9. muffin @8 The origin of the idea and the term, ‘elevator pitch’, lies in the imagined scenario that you have only the duration of a shared elevator ride to sell (pitch) an idea to someone who has the power to greenlight it. Thus ‘changing stories’. Wikipedia interestingly cites an example of this literally occurring: “Game series Kingdom Hearts was created when Square Enix producer Shinji Hashimoto met a Disney executive in an elevator, and pitched the idea of a game series combining their respective franchises.”

10. For me at least, a gentler end to the week after a couple of head-scratching days. Like others I raised an eyebrow over jar/ can. Favourites included EXCHANGE, DENTISTS (after some fruitless time trying to think of a name for those who make stamps and seals), the lesser-seen CHAPERON, IMPOSTERS and NOGGIN, my LOI. Was helped with DASHES by yesterday’s use of ‘tears’ to mean ‘bomb’ being fresh in the mind. Thanks Tramp and Andrew.

11. For 2d I think JAR is one of the many slang terms for prison so synonymous with CAN in that context. An enjoyable solve though it was a bit of a surprise to get the (for me, and I appreciate we’re all different) easiest of the week on a Friday which is usually a tougher slot. I had a bit of a quibble with ODORIZED with its unsignalled doubly-American spelling (missing U; Z for S), and because it means, I think rather specifically, adding a pleasant smell to mask a bad one, not really captured by the “smelled” definition in the clue.

12. I suppose a jar and a can are similar in the sense that they both hold things. For example – a jar of jam and a can of worms. Bit like the clue?

    Thanks to Tramp for a pleasant Friday and Andrew for the blog.

13. I checked 2 online thesauruses and both gave CAN and JAR as synonyms which did surprise me. However, Google’s AI disagrees. The jury is out. Thanks to setter and blogger.

14. MattS @11 makes a good point about prison, but I’ve never heard it referred to as “jar” – might he be confusing it with “jug”?
    Cans are always made of metal, whereas jugs rarely are.

15. Relatively straightforward, but not without some head scratching and many enjoyable solves. My tuppenceworth – perhaps CAN=JAR can be justified by the slightly transatlantic flavo(u)r to some of today’s clues. Indeed Merriam-Webster’s third definition for can reads: a jar for packing or preserving fruit or vegetables.

    Thanks Tramp and Andrew

16. Yes, LEGIT / LEG IT certainly came up via Brummie in January this year – not really similarly clued although LEG IT did refer to leave rapidly, the remnant being a shortening of legitimate

    LEGIT Dash off genuine short

    Ta Tramp and Andrew

17. I’m with everyone else that this was not as chewy as the last couple of days. Lots of neat brief clues, with humour.

    I thought that there was a transatlantic flavour to the equivalence of JAR and can – I have to rethink canning when I read it in American literature as it’s usually in jars, and what I’d call preserving, pickling or jam-making, and it brings me up short every time. In the UK canning in that sense is not something we do at home, it’s very much factory based.

    However, I didn’t read an American flavour to ELEVATOR PITCHES as they are all about selling a story to someone at speed and didn’t think it needed the storey/story equivalence.

    Thank you to Tramp and Andrew.

18. A contribution to the can/jar debate; not sure if it’s helpful! I believe that when Americans can fruit, they put it into jars. I’m thinking mason jars. And both can and jar are verbs in that sense.

    Shanne – we crossed.

19. PostMark @18
    I don’t think an unindicated US usage in an English crossword can be used to justify the equivalence of can and jar!

    [The old riddle: when is a door not a door? When it’s ajar.]

20. Tough and enjoyable for the most part.

    New for me: 5d ELEVATOR PITCH.

21. MattS@11 – ‘Odorize’ is perfectly good British English! ‘ou’ words often drop the ‘u’ when extended (‘honorarium’ etc) and ‘-ize’ is the correct ending. A little bit of pedantry… sorry.

22. Thanks Tramp and Andrew

    Per the OED, cans were originally made of various materials, and cites historic references to cans of stone and of wood.

23. Liked SPREAD-EAGLED, EXCLAMATIONS, ELEVATOR PITCHES (yes!) and IMPOSTERS.

    Thanks Tramp and Andrew.

24. It’s nice to see Tramp back to round off an interesting week, in customary stylish fashion.

    Lots of concise, witty, well constructed clues. I particularly liked SPREAD-EAGLED (I’ve always liked that expression and the surface was amusing), DREDGE UP, EXCLAMATIONS, DENTISTS, GOOSEBERRY, TERMINUS and IMPOSTERS.

    Like others, I’d never heard of an ELEVATOR PITCH and was interested to discover the derivation but I still didn’t immediately grasp the significance of ‘stories’ – nice one!

    Interesting to see ‘tears’ = DASHES, after yesterday’s discussion, as paul @10 points out.

    Many thanks to Tramp (hoping to see you again before too long) and to Andrew.

25. When is a door not a door? When it’s a can…
    Doesn’t work!

26. Fairly breezed through this last night with lots of smiles, especially for the Paulian SPREAD-EAGLED, EXCLAMATION, NOGGIN and GOOSEBERRY, although I think Tramp can be quite risqué in his own way. Also shrugged with AJAR but nothing to add to that debate. DENTISTS, TREASURED, IMPOSTERS and ROTUND my favourites.

    Ta Tramp & Andrew.

27. I suppose that if you read CAN and JAR both as verbs it sort of works.

28. Don’t know why but with Enigmatist midweek, sandwiched by tougher than usual Paul and Fed puzzles I was dreading a real toughie today.

    I sailed through this quite nicely though. Just being the right side of challenging for me.

    A completion and full parse.

    It been a while since I’ve encountered the word snogging. Liked that clue.

    Cheers Tramp and Andrew. Going to have a can/jar of beer to celebrate.

29. I liked GOOSEBERRY and EXCLAMATIONS. I agree with those who think can and jar as two verbs both meaning to preserve gets Tramp off the hook.

30. An “Elevator Pitch” is a bit technical. It’s original meaning came from entrepreneurs raising money with detailed business plans from Banks or Venture Capitalists. However complicated or technical your idea might be, you need to be able to pitch it completely in the length of the elevator ride to the banker’s office. Enjoyed seeing it.

31. Definitely a game of two halves this morning. Left hand side slipped in fairly smoothly, but the key clue to opening up the other half of the grid was of course 5d. Ashamed to say that even with what should have been enough crossers in place to nail it, I was reduced to the Reveal button. And I’m another who had never heard the term before. Thereafter things fell neatly into place. Last one in was the HOUSEFLY, but strictly speaking a DNF of course.
    Wasn’t the SPREAD-EAGLE a particularly nasty variation oF Viking execution? Think I saw an example in a chamber of horrors some time ago. Also a fairly common name for a public house around here…

32. A huge amount of quibbling about can and jar here, but can anyone honestly say they were held up for a minute by what they see as the problematic equivalence? AJAR was my FOI and I didn’t give it a second thought.

33. ronald @31
    You are thinking of the blood-eagle. I won’t go into details.

34. Fed and Tramp have rescued what started out as a fairly poor week. Some very elegant clues SALEABLE, AMIGOS and NOGGIN being my highlights. CHAPERON is an unfortunate coincidence after yesterday’s Carphone Warehouse clue.

    My only quibble is 25A, ‘believer’ is a poor synonym for a deist. Deists are marked by their explicit rejection of dogma and religion, and will likely have more in common with atheists than theists. In the loose sense that they believe a philosophical tenet, sure, but by that definition an atheist would be as well for believing whatever philosophical maxims they hold to. I’ll stop there before this becomes a 2000 word philosophy essay, but yes, very sloppy especially coupled with a pretty vague definition.

    @31 Ronald, I think it’s the blood eagle that was the viking execution you refer to.

35. On the US usage question, the American with me here confirms that when canning is the verb (for e.g. fruit) the receptacle is often a jar.

    Liked GOOSEBERRY and EXCLAMATIONS.

36. I also hesitated over ‘jar’ = ‘can’, but I justified it as both = drink / beer as in ‘come to my house later for a jar / can’. Just about worked for me.
    Thanks Tramp and Andrew.

37. Much to like here, just the right side of “very hard” for my capabilities.

    I failed to parse PARA, for which I bow my head in shame now that I see Andrew’s explanation. And the parsing of TERMINUS also eluded me, not having seen TER as an abbreviation before. I presume that it is used when addressing a letter?

    Thank you Tramp and Andrew

38. Thanks for the blog.

    Sourdough: that’s what I was thinking. It is a bit loose, on reflection.

    For elevator pitches, as Andrew pointed out, the “changing stories in US” refers to changing floors/storeys, which you would do in a lift. If you’ve never heard that term, you’re lucky.

39. My newspaper says No 29,732 not 29,832 – see top of page.

40. Jacob@37. Ter. is often seen on street signage in the UK.
    Arjay@39 – well spotted!

41. Rotund = full?

    Thanks Tramp and Andrew.

42. Chambers has “a drinking-mug” as a definition for “can”, which I might easily call a jar. I see Sourdough@36 thinking along the same lines.

43. An enjoyable puzzle and a bit more doable than the last couple of days. I don’t think I’d heard of ELEVATOR PITCHES before but it’s a great clue.

    My one objection is to the spelling of IMPOSTERS (it hurts me to type it) rather than impostors. This is not Tramp’s fault because it’s in (some) dictionaries (not the SOED thankfully). It’s one of those cases where if enough people keep getting it wrong it ends up being “right”. To me it’s as bad as acter or docter.

    Apart from that I enjoyed it! Thanks Tramp and Andrew.

44. Jugs were often made of Pewter before plastic took over the World

45. And STILL people are banging on about can and jar … This is the kind of thing that has, in the past, pushed me close to quitting this site or to retreating to the lurkosphere for weeks at a time. Please, someone, tell me what the point is! I really do not get it – it is a crossword clue.

46. Can someone give me an example of how FACTOR is a synonym for “characteristic”? I’ve looked in a couple of online sources and don’t find the equivalence, and I’m struggling to think of a phrase in which I would use them interchangeably. It’s obviously my lack of knowledge as no-onse else has mentioned it.

    Hopefully a diversion from the jar-can controversy 😁

    I thoroughly enjoyed completing this after the battering of the past couple of days, so thanks to Tramp and Andrew.

47. Sorry, Balfour. Many of us are pendants and love banging on about such things. We can’t help it – ask my wife. 🙂
    (don’t know how to do a smiley face on here)
    EDIT Oh! Seems I do.

48. Ah, Balfour @45 – of course there’s nothing (or nothing much) people round here like more than an extended, and ultimately completely pointless, discussion of such minutiae. You’re absolutely right to point out that the key question is whether or not anyone was actually held up in the solve, and like you, I think that’s highly unlikely in this case. But I have to admit I do rather enjoy the pedantry-for-the-sake-of-pedantry. Apart from anything else, I find myself learning things I never knew… Anyway, please don’t quit the site over it!

49. Oh dear. I blame autocorrect. I am not and have never been a pendant.

50. Sourdough @ 47 I would have thought a pendant would sway in the breeze…

    TTP @ 46 how about “One of the factors / characteristics that defines extremism is…”?

51. Simon S @50 – that would be “feature” rather than “factor” surely? I can’t make “factor” work in that sense. “One factor that contributes to extremism” would work, but I’m not sure “characteristic” would work in the same phrase.

    Maybe it’s just something I haven’t come across before.

52. Thanks for the blog , this had many clever and neat clues , ODORIZED is excellent , took me a while to see the RE bit and I always try to use the ize endings . PARA has a very nice definition and CHAPERON flows smoothly .

    ELEVATOR PITCHES – MrPenney gave me a pre-cog hint to this on Tuesday in the FT blog , the tachyons move in mysterious ways .

53. TTP@51: ‘The Krypton Factor’ was a TV game show in which competitors took part in a number of physical and mental agility challenges to determine which one of them had that particular characteristic that made them good at everything.

54. In my Oxford Thesaurus, under FACTOR we find ‘aspect’ and under aspect we find ‘characteristic’. In a similar way, I justified AJAR by reference to beers: ‘can’=beer; beer=JAR. It’s pleasing that Tramp (and Sourdough@36) had the same idea.

    My Chambers (10th edition, 2006) doesn’t have ODORIZED, but looking online we find odorize meaning ‘give a scent to’. So the past participle or adjective is used to describe an otherwise odorless gas that has been given a smell for safety reasons. I’m not sure that ‘smelled’ is a good definition, but hey, we got there in the end! 🙂

    Thanks as always to Tramp for dropping in. “If you’ve never heard [of ELEVATOR PITCHES], you’re lucky.” Now we can all share your pain. 🙁

    And thanks to Andrew, too.

55. Roz @52
    If you spell all the “-ise” and “-isation” words with an S, you don’t have to bother to remember which ones can’t be Z.

56. I did wonder about Tramp following up the excellent DUP/Republican creep clue with PARA. Coincidence or subtle reference?

57. Muffin@33 and Tachi@34…just returned from a sunny session in the beer garden of The Royal Standard nearby, rather than The Spread Eagle. You’re both totally right of course about it being a Blood Eagle, the details made me rather weak at the knees at the time…

58. A bit of respite today from a tricky week…
    Thanks for the hints, I’m still not clear what ELEVATOR PITCHES are. I worked out what STORIES were early on, that gave me ELEVATOR, but what PITCHES are, no lost me.
    I likes EXCHANGE, though probably an old chestnut for all the experienced solvers on here.
    Thanks also due to Tramp.

59. For the record, AJAR was my last one in, but only because I thought it was a triple for ages. Liked IMPOSTERS too, but the placement of the anagrind made me a bit uncomfortable. Would a participle like failing be better? Not sure. Happened to think of that one by coincidentally looking up an old classic clue that used it.
    Valentine @41, rotund/full as in descriptions of figures?
    Thanks, A&T.

60. An empty barrel is still ROTUND.

61. HYD @58
    I found this link
    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/elevatorpitch.asp
    helpful this morning in finding out about elevator pitches.

62. phitonelly @59 – I like your suggestion for an equally smooth surface for 15dn but I wasn’t at all perturbed by the position of Tramp’s anagrind.

    I’m with Lord Jim @43, though – but, as he says, it’s not Tramp’s fault. 😉

63. Eileen @61 – Many thanks for that..

64. Hello, the number of the puzzle seems to be wrong at the top of this page. It should be 29732.

65. Chaperones yesterday and a mere CHAPERON today. Fed also gave us a snooker clue yesterday and Bob Chaperon is a retired Canadian cueman. I’ll get my coat…

66. As somebody who spent 40 years working in enterprise software, much of it in or adjacent to the start-up world, I am very familiar with the concept of an elevator pitch.

    Those of you who have never encountered one should consider yourselves lucky, in much the same way as those who have never encountered a blood eagle.

67. Thanks Eileen @62, I was beginning to think I was the only one. I suppose it’s too late to start a campaign for the correct spelling?

68. I loved the self-referential clue, perfectly timed, at 3d TREASURED. Brilliant.

    My other favourite was 23a NOGGIN, which was the best of the 7 risqué clues/answers that I counted to make up a humorously naughty theme.

    Thanks Tramp for the perfectly pitched puzzle, and Andrew for the excellent blog. (That’s T&A, in keeping with the theme.😊)

69. What a miserably difficult week for me, Sunday to Friday. I can count on 4 fingers the number of clues i solved all week.

    24a – where does FLY come from in the clue?

    Thank you for the blog.

70. Steffen @69 – I think FLY is one of those definitions that has entered the language meaning ‘with it’/’alert’, there was a song by The Offspring, ‘Pretty Fly for a White Guy’…

71. Steffen@69. I do sympathise, because I found all of this week pretty tough, but I have enough experience to know that If I persevere I will get there – or pretty close. Tramp in particular I expect to solve eventually, because the stripped down nature of the clues means they’re difficult to get into at first, but they yield to pressure eventually because the definition is going to be just one word, for the most part.

    Look at 26a: Daughter remains in tears, for example. There is a less than 1% chance that ‘daughter’ is going to be the definition. So that means the answer (almost certainly) begins with D. So what’s a synonym for ‘remains’ that can take a D in front of it? And if ‘tears’ is the definition, is it crying or is it ripping or is it running? That’s how I started, but I’m not saying it was at all easy.

    Keep plugging away!

72. This took me all day because I was convinced ‘barrel placed in a bar is full’ was a cd for LOADED (‘bar’ as in Browning Automatic Rifle). DENTISTS also took far too long, note to self that ….- S -S might be -ISTS, not -ISES. Great crossword, thank you Tramp! (And Andrew 🙏)

73. Loved IMPOSTERS and the misdirect with Tramp.

    Thanks both

74. [Agree with Lord Jim and Eileen re spelling of “impostor”; these deteriorations make me shudder. I’d also point out that – as far as I’m aware – the -ize ending is actually the original English spelling and, in contradiction of Roz, is my ‘go to’ option]

    Meanwhile, since I’m here – today’s Tramp was a lovely stroll. Many thanks to blogger too. I took a quick look at the Enigmatist and swiftly decided to save for the weekend as I guessed it wouldn’t yield within the 30 minutes I allow myself for daily Guardian puzzles! I’m looking forward to it!

75. Not much to add. It was a nice change to see “jack” used for something other than a seaman. ELEVATOR PITCHES was the LOI. The Chambers app didn’t give it as an expression, so it was a ‘meh’! I assumed it was some sort of term for the lobby areas around the lifts. The app didn’t have ODORIZED either, but that has a fairly obvious definition.

76. William@74 , contradict me at any time but perhaps read what I have put first .

77. Roz@76 – My gosh! I am very sorry – it seems we are in total agreement … I can’t think how I was so wrong. Either a semi-senior moment or I may have been referring to another’s comment. Either way, please accept my heartfelt apologies (and pleasure to see that you also don’t believe that that the -ize ending is an ‘Americanism’ as many do)
    Have a lovely weekend – and stay cool, if you can!
    x

78. William@77, no need to apologize , I realize people skim the blogs when they are in later , I do it myself as I am often late during the week . Muffin@55 may have muddied the waters but he did not mean to criticize .
    Enjoy the Enigmatist , I was born cool .

79. Roz@78 😇

80. Roz@78 – and three proofs by example in just one paragraph! You deserve a prise! (Cool – I bet you were, and hot no doubt!)

81. I can’t find dictionary support for defining ODORIZED as “smelled”; it’s not even close, as far as I can tell. I was going to make a similar complaint about ROTUND, but I think phitonelly @59 just about gets us there.

    The spelling IMPOSTER appears to be slightly more common than IMPOSTOR now, but that’s quite a recent development, of which I was unaware.

    [I have to disagree with Lord Jim @43 — once a spelling becomes sufficiently common, it’s no longer incorrect. Otherwise, we would all be incorrect all the time, because we don’t spell things the way they did hundreds of years ago. But I know these are fighting words.]

82. I really loved this puzzle — best in a long time. All completed and parsed

    I appreciate how Tramp tailored the wordplay to make a coherent surface, such as 14a “…area out of cage…” for RE to go with the zoo reference

    My favourites are the meaningful, concise, and/or funny clues, like 5a EXCHANGE, 10a AMIGOS, 14a ODORIZED, 20a EXCLAMATIONS, the naughty 23a NOGGIN, 24a HOUSEFLY, etc., etc. Shall I go on? All of them, really!

83. Forgot to mention that for 21d LEGIT, I originally had LEAVE

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