Cryptic crossword No 29,777 by Philistine

121 comments on “Cryptic crossword No 29,777 by Philistine”

1. So that was the “joke”? I’ve managed to control my mirth. I tossed up between LOG & LOO for the final word of 1d, with neither making sense. Not sure that POO does either. Never heard of BAKERLOO, so 9a was no help.

2. I thought “HE NEEDED A POO” was a bit ‘green paint’? But quirky crosswords are a nice reminder of why we prefer Guardian to Times, thanks Philistine and speedy loonapick

3. I couldn’t decide between LOO and POO so left that letter blank with a shrug. Had to look up the badger, and then didn’t see the parse, and so was grumpy — until I came here and found that I do in fact quite like it.

   Ionic again for the second time in two days. Strange how often that seems to happen.

   Quite a nice lunchtime solve here in the antipodes though. Thanks Philistine and loonapick.

4. This one fell into place fairly readily. I needed a correction for 1d, HE NEEDED A…?? Surely it’s not POO, so what could it be? I also thought of LOG, but I put JOB, which was a euphemism in my family when I was a kid, but it turns out it’s not in the dictionary as such. So I put the first, and it was correct, so I got the completion, but with an asterisk

   I learned today that SCATOLOGY and ESCHATOLOGY are two different things. I always wondered why theologians were discussing excrement! 🙂

5. If Admin will allow a little self-indulgence, four and a half years ago, in January 2021, I started working through the Guardian weekday cryptic puzzle archive starting with the previous year, January 2020, with a goal of catching up to the present day. Today I achieved that goal!

   All along the way I’ve been learning from and enjoying this wonderful blog. I caught up to open comments on 26 February 2025, making my first comment on puzzle 29,564, 12 December 2024. Since then I’ve commented on every weekday puzzle

   With the help of this community I’ve been able to progress from rarely completing a puzzle to occasionally completing, with six in a row being my best streak. Now I can finally say thank you to all the bloggers and commenters for your engaging, informative, and entertaining writing — thank you! 🙂

6. loonapick, 8a I think you mean “Espionage and” is superfluous

7. Thanks Philistine for a humourous crossword. As an American I’m not aware of any ‘breakfast test’ rules but I solved this over dinner where I assume such ‘rules’ wouldn’t apply anyway. In 1d I initially had ‘pot’ instead of POO, thinking the poor baker used baking equipment for his toilet but I saw my error via the check button. My top picks were RATEL, EARPLUG, SINECURE, and LEECH. Thanks loonapick for the blog.

8. I’ve been in the States 50 years, and have never heard of ‘breakfast test’ rules either.

   I was also one who couldn’t be sure of the last word of 1d – I guessed POO but held my breath (and nose). Likewise nho LINAC but guessed it might be short for linear accelerator. Prefer to solve without guessing, but some days that’s what’s required.

9. I’m another with HE NEEDED A JOB, but as Mig says it lacks dictionary support although Chambers has “jobbie” as noun – lump of excrement (that would fit in a different grid). No problems with the scatological humour which I’m sure Dr Philistine hears a bit of.

10. Thanks Philistine and loonapick..

    NINJA
    I think ‘espionage and’ is used to define NINJA more completely.
    However, considering ‘partly’ in the clue, ‘espionage and’ could
    have been avoided as mentioned/intended by the blogger.
    Because these words don’t participate in the WP, the clue is
    just &littish (not quite an &lit).

    HE NEEDED A POO
    I found the definition all right.
    I have a question.
    He kneaded a poo: Is this grammatically okay?

    Liked the clues, which were based on this ‘joke’. Liked AGE WELL in addition.

11. 17a

    The medicine is an analgesic.

    Analgesia is the absence of pain.

12. I think the puzzle would have been improved if 1D was clued a little better. Like others I thought LOO or POT was the answer before ending up with POO. I am an American and don’t love the topic but don’t have a real problem with it either. That said, if the printer paper was only a little softer I could think of an appropriate use for the completed grid.

13. I was going to make the point KVa @10 did about “espionage and.” I was aware of this longer NINJA definition and it helped me solve the clue – which I also parsed.

    BAKERLOO helped me solve 1d. I don’t care how SCATOLOGICAL things become but I must say the image lodged in my mind. I may lay off the chocolate éclairs today.

    I was on a very quick solve, aided by the musician at 1a, but then parsing powers deserted me in the SE corner and I finished up average. Everything was fairly clued though. I’m surprised I’d never heard of LINAC. I saw RATEL somewhere this year but I couldn’t remember the mustelid in question to check the vowels. I should have spotted the parse, which I did when eventually solving. Perils of the 2am solve I guess, the brain starts shutting down.

    So I feel your pain loonapick. Thanks for the blog and Philistine for the puzzle. Well done Mig!

14. Tony Santucci @7 and Dr Whatson@8
    I don’t have time for a proper Google search, but there are many references to the breakfast test online – one example is here. https://jeffspuzzles.com/2024/04/07/breakfast-test/

15. For clarity, I don’t believe the breakfast test should exist – words are words, and especially these days, many innocent words can be “triggering”.

16. Not the best theme for a breakfast solve. I didn’t really need the mental image of 1 down whilst eating my Weetabix but it gave a me a chuckle in many places. It’s obviously my specialist subject as well as I sped through this. Only RATEL gave me trouble which having missed the hidden I got lucky in picking the correct vowels.

    Liked SHAKE A LEG and AIRFRYING as well as my immature brain enjoying the theme.

    Thanks Philistine and Loonapick.

17. I usually enjoy Philistine, something to do with wavelength, I think, so this went in fairly smoothly. (I also loved Brummie yesterday and often find him more tractable than Vulcan).

    I got the first three words of 1D, but not the last until I’d solved BAKERLOO, which gave my SCATALOGICAL.

    I loved this, thank you to loonapick and Philistine.

18. Staticman@17 – I recently clued RATEL as ‘Corporate lawyer defends a big weasel’, so it’s one of my go-to checks for hidden words 🙂

19. I’ve said before that I think Paul is unfairly accused of being more SCATOLOGICAL than the average setter and this puzzle was a case in point. I’m surprised ‘job’ doesn’t have dictionary support as mentioned by Mig@4 and Tim C@9 – in my Scottish childhood the word definitely had that meaning (often but not always modified to ‘jobbie’ – as fans of Billy Connolly will know).
    Seemed to be (even) more anagrams than usual.
    LINAC was new to me. I’d never really known what ESCHATOLOGICAL meant, and I wasn’t over-fond of the clue, just adding two letters to another long answer. Also thought HARPSICHORDIST weakish with the repeat of DIST from the clue.
    Swarbrules@11, ANALGESIA is surely something a medical practitioner may provide.
    Thanks Loonapick and Philistine.

20. I’m not keen on the idea of a “breakfast test” either, but still couldn’t bring myself to complete HE NEEDED A POO. So a dnf here, I’m afraid.

    Had to ask Google about the judgment day and the badger, otherwise all fairly smooth and enjoyable.

    Well done Mig.

21. We used to refer to the more basic pubs, where you probably wouldn’t take your girlfriend, as spit & sawdust but they’ve virtually all disappeared in favour of the bland Weatherspoon style these days.

22. [William@21 – I know what you mean, but I have been in one or two pubs which have sawdust on the floor to try to create an old-time ambience – the manager of one mentioned that it does actually make cleaning the floor easy – just sweep it and you’re done. And I wouldn’t tend to take anyone I wanted to impress to a Wetherspoon’s :-)!]

23. Bunged in 27A, and then LedOL when the parsing penny dropped. Both logical and scatty, eh? Thx for giving me a bellylaugh, Philistine, and loonapick, for staying up so late to shepherd us all safely home.

24. William @21, the Wetherspoons in Leeds Station would be improved by some sawdust to soak up the spilt beer and make the floor less tacky when trying to walk out.

25. Other solvers must have had far more tasteful upbringings than yours truly. “Why was the baker sacked? Because he (k)needed a poo!” was a classic of the playground humourist.

    Whilst I winced at 1d, the payoff with 9a, 10d and 27a was worth the squeeze.

26. The theme was ugh for me first thing in the morning as I was eating my muesli…

    I could not parse 1d or 3d.

    Favourites: BAKERLOO, RATEL.

    New for me: LINAC.

    SAWDUST (loi) on the floor in pubs – that was a blast from the past for me! Do some pubs still do that? I’ve barely entered a pub for 30 years or more so I wouldn’t know.

    Mig@5 – congratulations – that is a wonderful achievement.

27. I did think ‘Surely not? when I entered 1dn but was completely won over by the ingenious melding of 10dn and 27ac (much cleverer than “just adding two letters to another long answer”, beaulieu @19?) and the hilarious exploitation of BAKERLOO.
    (I see that I’ve more or less paraphrased InterCitySoul’s comment @25.)

    Other favourites were HARPSICHORDIST, TESTAMENT, ANALGESIA, SHAKE A LEG and ORKNEYS. I enjoyed spotting RATEL, which I learned from crosswords decades ago but haven’t seen recently.

    All good (not so clean) fun. Many thanks to Philistine for an enjoyable solve and loonapick for a great blog.

28. I also got the first three words of 1dn quickly then paused over the last one. Solving “outflow” helped but “He needed a job” would not make any sense of the definition (why sack a fellow because he needed a job?) so I don’t think there is any ambiguity there. Ditto it would be “he needed the loo” not “a loo” so again, no complaints from me.

    William@21: Much as many folk dislike Wetherspoons I don’t think it is fair to call them “bland”. They are often found in really interesting buildings, which have been sympathetically restored and would otherwise be going to ruin. I also understand that each one has a unique carpet specially woven, so they art one place you would not find sawdust on the floor!

    I cam across “eschatology” after reading the Illuminatus Trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea in which there is much talk of “imminentizing the eschaton”, which needed a bit of parsing as an 18 year old!

    Many thanks Philistine for taking a risk and creating an enjoyable puzzle. And thank Loonapick for the blog.

29. Well, it spoiled my breakfast.

30. Classy. Okay maybe not 1d but I enjoyed the mechanics of solving it. Was it a pie, a bun, or some of the three letter confection? Ah 🙂

    I thought RATEL was a neat trick

    There’s some support in Wiktionary for ANALGESIA and it’s hard to imagine Dr Philistine making a basic error like that?

    Cheers L&P

31. Mig @5 – that’s great news!

    I’ve been receiving emails of your belated comments on my blogs and following your progress with interest. I look forward to reading many more now, in real time. 😉

32. InterCitySoul@25, ah well that does at least provide a bit of context! I don’t mind the schoolboyish stuff in general, but I did think HNAP was needlessly icky; as others have mentioned, I think HE NEEDED A JOB could have been clued in a not dissimilar way (“Reason for hiring a Baker? Quite the opposite, from what we hear… he needed to go!”), thereby avoiding the direct unpleasantry and maintaining all the other jokes around the theme (although I’m not sure what particular cleverness there is in 27a per Eileen@27; I must be missing something). Anyway.

    Faves were RATEL and SHAKE A LEG.

    Congrats to Mig, and thanks both

33. Swarbrules @11: It’s a subtle difference to be sure. Aspirin is an analgesiac, but on the other hand I’ve seen comments such as “patient advised OTC analgesia if necessary”

34. Thanks Philistine and loonapick
    I wouldn’t have got 1d without solving 9a, and I don’t think it makes a lot of sense. Although I’m familiar with linear accelerators, I’ve never heard LINAC as an abbreviation.
    Favourite TESTAMENT for the “fertiliser”.

35. AP @32 – I was referring to the linking of 10dn and 27ac.

36. I know at this point that it’s a losing battle, but Tet is a holiday, not an offensive, as I’ve said here on previous occasions. The Tet Offensive began on Tet (when it was assumed that there would be celebrating and thus less vigilance). The Yom Kippur War began on Yom Kippur for similar reasons, and surely we can all appreciate that it’s problematic to clue Yom Kippur (the holiest day in the Jewish calendar) as “war”. Same thing.

37. I’m surprised that some comments here, and on the G site, seem to be indisposed to the theme. I find this inoffensive, as opposed to another setter who usually gets raves, rather than complaints.

    Amazing where cryptics lead you. I landed on Mozart when looking up SCATOLOGICAL. Well worth the trip.

    KVa@10. If I understand your question about the grammar in ”He kneaded/neeeded a poo” , you may be asking if it should read as “He needed to poo?” Best I can say is that the surface and the cryptic reading may have got their grammar mixed up, but either way cryptic or surface, ”He needed a poo is okay”, and He kneaded a poo is just outrageous(ly funny).

38. Eileen@35, ah ok! I must admit that I just found it a bit odd, arriving at checkers for another OLOGICAL after having put in the linking SCATOLOGICAL. I liked the EH part of the device though.

    mrpenney@36 I didn’t know that. And now that I do, I fully agree with you, naturally.

39. paddymelon@37
    H N A POO
    Def: He needed a poo (I find the expression all right). No questions.
    My question was on the WP: He kneaded a poo. Does ‘a’ belong here grammatically?

40. Mig@5 that’s quite an achievement! Chapeau

    Kva@39 does it depend on whether it’s a specific poo being kneaded? I think I’ve boggled my mind enough for one morning

41. KVa@39. I can’t speak for Chambers 🙂 but in my dialect, a poo, singular, is common.

42. KVa@39 Poo can be a countable noun as well as a verb.

43. J of FT @28: You make a fair point about ‘Spoons. Ignore me, I’m just an old curmudgeon who deals poorly with change and loss of tradition.

44. I wondered if SHAKE A LEG was referring to one’s first reaction to accidental urine leakage, as part of the SCATALOGICAL theme, but maybe it’s just what I do 🫤 Most of the answers were straightforward once I got the joke and agree with Eileen @27 about the ‘ingenious melding’. Favourites were HARPSICHORDIST, TESTAMENT and age well.
    I disagree with the snobbery attached to ‘Spoons’, there are some great venues around the UK in listed buildings, including the new Waltham Green ex-ticket office, which I mentioned recently.

    Well done Mig

    Ta Philistine and loonapick.

45. a long as the baker thoroughly washed his hands before going on to the next batch of croissants…

46. I very much enjoyed this and found 1d funny and clever, even though I was eating my breakfast while attempting the crossword. I didn’t get RATEL or LINAC but otherwise completed it and could parse most. Much more approachable than yesterday’s which didn’t seem at all Mondayish to me.

47. Walham Green.

48. Thought the HARPSICHICORDIST struck just the right note as a start. Found it rather strange that the baker needed a POO rather than perhaps a Pee, which would have fitted perfectly well with the crossers I had in place. I think it a shame that the Spit and SAWDUST pubs are on the wane in the UK. Or perhaps only where I live. Never quite know what the difference is between a PLANTAIN and a banana. And remarkably, even with all those other crossers in place, I had ESCHATOLOGICAL unsolved, had to look the word up. Strictly a dnf, but much to admire and enjoy.
    I see we’ve been busy on here since just after 2 ayem, but in a rush, and haven’t read any of the comments yet. Hope I haven’t tediously repeated any of them…

49. 1 down was a bit grim at breakfast time while eating toast

50. Out of interest, am I the only one to find the blogger’s description of “ionic” rather patronising? It jumped out at me that a theological term which was unfamiliar to most was just defined without comment, but a scientific term which is in GCSE science, so should be known to all 14-15 year olds was considered esoteric and worthy of a sarcastic put down.

    Maybe I am being over-sensitive to the two cultures thing, but I was quite taken aback and found the “whatever that means” belittling. I am all for us flaunting our ignorance – I learn huge amounts from this forum – but not in a way which suggests that other people’s spheres of knowledge are lesser than their own.

    Rant over, and it’s not something that will make me storm out in a huff (or “if that’s to soon, a minute and a huff”) but I thought it worth mentioning.

51. 1D was so schoolboyish that despite my better inclinations it made me laugh…I’d not heard of LINAC (which was the last in) but easy to work out. This was over in a flash (a flush?) and might have been better as the Monday puzzle. With thanks to Philistine and loonapick.

52. I initially had PEA for the ‘joke’ until disabused by crossers. It works just as well and is marginally less offensive. I got most of this puzzle but it left a bad taste, ’nuff said.

53. JoFT @50
    I totally agree – it would be impossible to go to school, in the UK at least, without coming across ionic bonding.

54. Tom @49, it didn’t bother me when I was eating my toast and VEGEMITE. 🙂

55. Jack of Few Trades @50 – having taught that level of Science I blinked a bit at the lack of recognition of IONIC. But I ended up pointing out how much scientific vocabulary is incorrectly used on this week’s Quick Cryptic blog – as there was an insistence that a clue was incorrect because it referred to the perfect tense not the perfect aspect. So I continue to be saddened by society’s ignorance of science while requiring that educated people are all aware of music, art, the classics (both books and Latin and Greek) and all. It means those of us from a scientific background are expected to cover twice the ground not to appear ignorant.

56. Apologies to those offended by my glib remark about IONIC – I only did science to 2nd year in high school (apart from a 1 year physics O grade to pad out my curriculum in sixth year, and that was in 1978, so the comment was meant to be self-deprecating, rather than dismissive of science. I can guarantee that I have never learned about ionic bonding, or if I did all those years ago, I’ve long forgotten about it.

57. A quick google of “Why did the baker…?” brings up plenty of pages with our answer on it, in various forms e.g. “…have smelly hands” etc.
    Thing is, I’m not sure a lot of children would understand the “kneaded” pun which leaves to me conclude that this joke operates in a vacuum, neither understood by the young nor appreciated by the old.
    Maybe I’m overthinking it.
    Still, I liked the links within the puzzle.
    Thanks both.

58. Swarbrules@11: ANALGESIA can also mean the relief of pain (at least in British English, not sure about American?), so does that not also work for MEDICINE?

59. And I’ve just spotted DaveW@33’s comment…

60. Good clean fun. Annoyed with myself for not parsing TESTAMENT but the Tet Offensive was 1968 in a long forgotten war.
    Thanks both.

61. Shane @55.
    Once again, apologies for my ignorance of chemistry. It just never interested me at school and I dropped science as soon as I could. I have tried to educate myself a little bit in physics, biology, astronomy etc since, but chemistry is still a gaping black hole in my sphere of knowledge. Sorry again – I have edited the comment to make it clear that it was meant as self-disparaging. I actually thought I might get some kickback on my atheist stance to eschatology.

62. I only tackle the crossword after breakfast, so no problem here, and I found it funny. Like some others, I wasn’t sure of the last 3-letter word in HE NEEDED A POO, but obviously ‘kneaded’ wouldn’t go well with pee, although job as a contraction of jobbie would be OK. In terms of the discussion above about ANALGESIA, the ODE says: medication that acts to relieve pain: she was able to take analgesia orally. I liked IONIC, HNAP, SHAKE A LEG, ORKNEYS, and SCATOLOGICAL.

    Thanks for the jobbie Philistine and to loonapick

63. Are we really criticising Loonapick for not knowing what an ionic bond is? Yes it may be GCSE chemistry but everyone has different areas of expertise and gaps in their knowledge. Seems a bit inconsiderate given how many people here seemingly don’t know the very common joke behind 1D.

    That aside, really liked this puzzle, plenty of good humour and some great new words in RATEL and SINECURE.

64. loonapick – don’t worry, it’s a societal thing, I remember muttering about it at university, as I went to some art/music/history/politics talk I’d chosen to attend because I was interested. Imperial put these things on to make us well-rounded humans.

65. Dynamite@63: No, we are not criticising Loonapick for not knowing what an ionic bond is (not least because they, like many here, were schooled before the National Curriculum and thus were able to drop subjects like science much earlier than they would now). If you read the comments, the criticism was in picking such a basic scientific term out as being incomprehensible, suggesting that science is beyond normal people, not least when “eschatological” was a far more obscure term.

    Loonapick: many thanks for your replies and edit…we all occasionally offend unintentionally. I, for one, was not in the least bothered by the atheistic reference, but then I fall rather closer to the Richard Dawkins end of that spectrum!

66. Last time (that I remember) that Philistine transferred a well-worn playground joke into a crossword it was the shih-tzu one. They are good jokes, of their kind, but not his jokes. Is it that he thinks they are such gems that no crossword lover should be deprived of them? I’m amazed at the lack of familiarity.

67. [Shanne @64: In the US, where undergraduate courses tend to be broader, there are often classes such as “science for poets” to help redress the balance. Richard Muller of UC Berkeley runs one called “Physics for future presidents” which has an excellent accompanying book. But yes, your point that the onus is on scientists to knows arts and not v.v. is very much felt.]

68. Dynamite @63. I entirely agree. I am always happy, when appropriate, to contribute my very extensive literary knowledge to these threads without feeling, or expressing, any indignation towards those who do not possess it. I therefore find the spectacle of scientists throwing up their hands at someone not knowing about IONIC bonds unedifying. I hadn’t a clue either, for the record, having attended, like I assume loonapick, a Scottish secondary school where it was possible to drop Physics and Chemistry after 2 years of unequal struggle.

69. I enjoyed this very much, especially the joke and the interplay of 1d, 10d and 27a.

    A teacher once accused me of having a 10d sense of humour, so maybe he was right. I think this is the first time I’ve seen that word in print since I looked it up then.

70. I enjoyed this very much, especially the joke and the interplay of 1d, 10d and 27a.

    A teacher once accused me of having a 10d sense of humour, so maybe he was right. I think this is the first time I’ve seen that word in print since I looked it up then.

    Thanks to Philistine and Loonapick.

71. Thanks Philistine and loonapick. Great stuff. I took it that 17a was referring to a branch of medicine, like surgery, but more particularly like anaesthesia – where the specific substance used is the “-etic”, or in this case, “-esic”. I wasn’t familiar with the schoolboy humour in 1d, so struggled with it. Maybe the clue needed polishing (although they do say, “You can’t polish a turd”). I’ll get me coat . .
    .

72. Loonapick@61 etc: I share your unfamiliarity with matters scientific for similar reasons: we had to choose between Arts and Sciences very early on and most of what I know about chemistry I learned from crosswords and Pointless.
    So I have no quarrel with the original explanation of IONIC (LINAC was a jorum for me too). Believe me, scientists, the depth of some people’s ignorance is past all understanding (as other people’s ignorance of your favourite subjects always is).

    Surprised how many people are squeamish about the schoolboy joke in 1d, though it took me a long time to see it – BAKERLOO was fun. TET=offensive used to be much more common than it is now, but the Vietnam war was a long time ago and I’d have said it was nearly past its set-by date, accurate or not.

    Ronald@48: the difference between plantains and bananas is something like that between cooking and eating apples: plantains are bigger and less sweet and usually eaten as a vegetable, often fried. A Nigerian friend often brings them to bring-and-share meals where they are very popular.

    Anyway, always a pleasure to see Philistine.

73. simonc @45, not to mention pain-au-chocolat…

74. . . . and here I was thinking 27 across was just past tense for 10 down . . .

75. [I remember when Jeremy Paxman used to present University Challenge he often mocked students’ lack of literary knowledge, but when a scientific question cam up he frequently couldn’t even pronounce the words correctly!]

76. mrpenny@36: Tet is both an Offensive and a holiday, and Yom Kippur is both a War and a day of repentance, and Christmas and Easter are both Islands and festivals, and……etc. Many words and phrases have many properties and meanings, and in the curious parallel universe of the crossword, one meaning, however commonly used, does not exclude another. One might say that this is the point: a reminder that one’s own instinctive assumptions about a word are not the only possible or legitimate ones.

77. muffin@75: these days I assume that University Challenge hosts get to practise the questions beforehand, as a major mispronunciation could affect the teams’ ability to answer.

    JOFT@65: If loonapick doesn’t know what an ionic bond is (I don’t either), then how is he supposed to know whether it’s a basic term or not?

78. Before I had the relevant crosser, I was debating whether 1D was a No.1 or a No.2 – then it occurred to me that 27A could have used these terms to tie in to the theme… Happy to see some scientific references and funnily enough the thought captured by muffin@75 went through my mind as well… At times I felt like I was in a parallel universe in which Paul had set a Monday-level crossword – and nothing wrong with that – great fun…

79. I thought Jack of Few Trades made a fair point @50. I had a similar reaction, not that I think (the brilliant) Loonapick needed to apologise.

    As a mere commenter, I was once pulled up for what looked like a “how are we supposed to know that?” post. Self deprecation and irony can be hard to spot online.

    I agree that the issue of maths and science being treated as unknowable, even by very Intelligent people, exists culturally, so it must be soul destroying for science and maths educators. In cruciverbal culture, it feels like assumed knowledge certainly skews towards arts, classics and the ecclesiastical (Pasquale!), especially amongst solvers. Partly because of words that become part of the crossword canon.

    I revel in the knowledge displayed by bloggers and commenters here and am always ready to learn something new, or at least to enjoy it sailing elegantly over my head. We all have gaps and some clues really are quite tough GK wise. In that context a “how are we…?” post, or something that looks like one, can feel natural, but we always run the risk of landing on something quite elementary.

    Thanks all.

80. BAKERLOO! Solving that one made me laugh aloud. Brilliant interplay of clues.

    Not to everyone’s taste, but my clue of the day was ESCHATOLOGICAL, because I didn’t know the word, yet could work it out from the clue. (Also true of LINAC, but then that wasn’t 14 letters, and it was less tricky, once all crossers were in place.)

81. I read loonapick’s original comment as referring to the fact that having made the effort to find out what an ionic bond was and turned up a definition that didn’t say much more than that it is a bond that is ionic. Basically an ironic comment along the lines of “… so much for science educationalists …”. No need for any apology.

82. gladys@77: My point was that we do not generally call things we don’t know about “obscure” but (as loonapick meant to, and I misread his intention) accept that it is simply an area we are ignorant of. The former can be seen as derogatory to the subject matter (casting it as unimportant or unnecessary), the latter only self-deprecatory*. The fact that the term “ionic bond” is a very basic piece of science compounded the issue for me.

    At no point did I criticise Loonapick for not knowing what an ionic bond is (pace various replies above), my complaint was for specifically picking out a piece of scientific knowledge as arcana, when other knowledge is not so treated.

    *Further schoolyard jokes: “I wish I was better at self-deprecatory humour”

83. A POO
    Thanks Bodycheetah, paddymelon and Petert for answering my question (@40, 41 and 42).
    I didn’t know it could be used as a countable noun. Thanks again.

84. Loonapick @15: Thanks for the response. I don’t believe a ‘breakfast test’ should exist either. If any US paper has one it would be the NY Times. I’m a fan of their Spelling Bee and they often exclude ordinary words that might be considered by someone, somewhere to be offensive or ‘triggering’. That alone is enough to ‘trigger’ me.

85. Thanks for the good wishes, especially Eileen@31! 🙂

86. I was in the zone with this, and got several with an ease that surprised me. Getting eschatological from scatology is scandalously scatological, is it not?
    Loved too many to mention. Kudos to Mig@many places

    Much gratitude Phillistine and Loonapick

87. ronald@48 A plantain is like an industrial-grade banana. You woudn’t eat a raw one, they’re so tough they’re almost woody and haven’t much taste. Cooking improves both texture and taste, and they’re quite pleasant in a fry-up. And plantain chips (crisps?) are a tasty snack.

    Thanks, Philistine and loonapick, and good going, Mig!

88. Beaulieu @22
    I’m guessing the pubs where you’ve seen sawdust on the floor are in or around Shoreditch – how very hipster!
    (I found sawdust was very effective at muting the smell of stale ale back in the day: not sure it would cope with reek of vinegar in the pubs in the chain referred to elsewhere.)

89. [Stanyel @88
    Better than a pub in Colne that I’ve been to a couple of times that has carpet tiles that come up with your shoe when you lift your foot!]

90. On the science/ arts discussion, I’m surprised no one has mentioned CP Snow and his The Two Cultures. I’m not a scientist, but have tried to educate myself over the years (beyond school days). I remember being astonished at the lack of basic knowledge shown by a barrister friend a few years back. He seemed to think the speed of sound and the speed of light were very close. He wasn’t sure which was faster…(There were other examples…) This from someone who would regard a basic knowledge of, say, British history and English literature as essential for an educated person… I also think of Simon Jenkins, who revels in his ignorance of science and the fact that the subject leaves him cold. Not that that ever stops him when it comes to his latest contrarian opinion.

91. RATEL is my go-to starting word in Wordle, so that helped and made me smile.

92. [It might be interesting to compare starting words for Wordle. Mine is ATONE.]

93. Nuntius @90

    I immediately thought of CP Snow and The Two Cultures when this discussion began today but I’ve been out most of the day and haven’t had a chance until now to look up a puzzle set by Arachne (in 2011, I’m amazed to find), which it fell to me to blog. You can find it here:
    https://www.theguardian.com/crosswords/lookup?crossword_type=cryptic&id=25505.
    It was before the days when we began including the clues in the blogs – if you’re interested, the blog is here:
    https://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/12/14/guardian-25505-arachne/
    Amazingly, Lisa Jardine’s article quoted there is still accessible!

94. Sagittarius @76. I respectfully disagree. Tet is a holiday. The Tet Offensive was an offensive. You need both words for it to mean that.

95. I loved it! I’m definitely a fan of this sort of humour (repressive childhood!) and who doesn’t like to laugh? Also, as it’s the 19th, it’s my birthday, so I took 19d as a personal message!

96. I spotted the wrong included letters in 8a and Googled PANPA, finding a character called Dave Panpa in something called Henry Stickmin. Fascinating. But not much help in solving 1d. 🤔

    Thanks to Philistine and loonapick.

    …and happy birthday to Kristi@95! 🥳

    …oops almost forgot, thanks to Jack@82 for “I wish I was better at self-deprecatory humour”. I’ll have to try it out some day! 😁

97. It fits with the theme – there’s a trailer for a new TV series I’ve seen a few times recently about a newspaper in which a character says “Don’t be so self-defecating”.

98. Revealed 10 and 27 as they were NHO and beyond my ken to solve from the wordplay (27 needed 10 solved anyway).
    I enjoyed it, a rather odd theme which I’m sure is not to everyone’s taste…
    Thanks both

99. Revealed 10 and 27 as they were NHO and beyond my ken to solve from the wordplay (27 needed 10 solved anyway).
    I enjoyed it, a rather odd theme which I’m sure is not to everyone’s taste…
    Thanks both

100. In support of MikeC @71, from Collins online:
     Medicine – any nonsurgical branch of medical science.
     Enjoyable solve. To me, 1d was a problem because it doesn’t seem like “a thing”, unless you’re very familiar with the joke. I think that’s what Hadrian @2 means too. Liked RATEL best for its simplicity.
     Thanks, Phil & loona

101. If anyone is interested, for the level we’re talking about, the way atoms make compounds is by sharing electrons. You’ve probably all seen that Bohr model of the atom*, with electrons orbiting around a nucleus of protons and neutrons. Those electrons orbit in different orbirals. What makes atoms different are the numbers of protons and therefore electrons (those match). So hydrogen has one proton and one electron. What all atoms are trying to achieve are filled outer orbitals – helium with two protons and two electrons has a filled outer orbital and is relatively unreactive.

     Now it depends on the atom involved as to whether they can give up those electrons to share them or have to share them in common. If the atoms give up or take on an electron to form a compound, one atom will become a positive ion (the one that’s given up an electron) and the other (the one that’s accepted an electron) will become a negative ion. This is what happens when sodium and chlorine form common table salt, sodium gives up one electron and chlorine accepts that electron to be come Na+ and Cl-. They remain in the compound held together by the attraction between the positive and negative ions – ionic bonds – and form crystals by arranging those ions (in a cubic formation iirc).

     Hydrogen doesn’t willingly give up its one electron, so tends to form molecules sharing electrons – it goes around in a diatomic molecule, H2, or in water, H2O. Carbon would have to give up or accept 4 electrons to fill its outside orbital, and that’s too many to keep a stable ion. As a result it forms compounds by sharing electrons – things like carbon dioxide, but also into proteins, carbohydrates and the complicated life forms.

     *The Bohr model is a simplification, but for the purposes of this explanation it might help.

     Sorry, can’t make the superscripts work.

102. Quite a discussion today on the online difficulty of differentiating self-deprecation from irony. For what it’s worth, prompted by Loonapick’s intimation @61, I find that contributors on 15sq who are of an aetheistic persuasion (aetheistic belief, really) do seem keen to mention it when the topic is germane, as though they were on a mission to proselytise the delusional (such as me). Such observations are unnecessary within an intelligent, open-minded forum. Loonapick’s remark today was extremely mild and inoffensive, by the way.
     Thanks to him for the blog, and to Philistine whose puzzles I always welcome.

103. mrpenney@36 and 94: I would agree partly with you and partly with Sagittarius @76. We have of course discussed this before, most frequently I think with “Ely” being clued as “cathedral”. muffin is usually the first to point out (quite rightly) that Ely is not a cathedral, but Ely Cathedral is. I accept that you wouldn’t use “Ely” to refer to Ely Cathedral without any context. Saying “My favourite building is Ely” doesn’t really make sense unless “cathedral” has already been mentioned. But if someone asks “Which is your favourite cathedral?” and you say “Ely”, the meaning is clear.

     It seems to me that a setter, by saying “cathedral” in a clue, is providing the required context. They are effectively saying “Name a cathedral for the purposes of the answer”, and the solver responds with “Ely”. Which is why it works (in my opinion). Similarly I think it’s fine for “offensive” in a clue to indicate TET.

104. I heartily enjoyed this puzzle. The joke at 1D is a hardy perennial, and the related clues were very clever. Favourite was BAKERLOO.

     [muffin @92 – my starter word is RAISE. I am currently on an improbable winning streak of 121. I’m hoping to curse it by mentioning it here, as the pressure of each individual puzzle is now becoming unbearable. Apparently the best starter word, statistically, is CAROL.]

105. Very well played, Mig@5!

     Observed a new experience today having done 75% of the crossword this afternoon between meetings and then returning this evening after wine. Somewhat to my surprise it was then write-in city. I doubt that alcohol is a recommended lubricant for crossword solving and I’m not really tempted to explore this further but I do wonder if others have observations about this somewhat counter-intuitive phenomenon?

106. Joffee @ 105

     Not at breakfast time!

107. Muffin@92 – that’s mine as well! It also seems to help to often lead to an answer sequence that works as a sentence.

     The pubs of my early working career were in The City and had pewter tankards and sawdust on the floor both purely as an affectation, I think. I must go back to the Bishop of Norwich (and similar) sometime to see if they are still as affected.

108. Well indeed, Simon@106! Unlike many bloggers I see the crossword as an activity for once the day’s heavy lifting is done rather than a warm up. Though perhaps they have a point. My warm up pre-“work” activity is the Wordle of some discussion here and Duolingo Cymraeg.

109. As this group’s resident Orcadian, I can confirm that “Orkney” is the correct term for the beautiful archipelago off the north-east coast of Scotland, and Philistine was quite right in his clue to say that locals don’t like it being called “the Orkneys”!

110. Piglet @109
     But is there a place called “Orkney”? I’m sure the place we visited was called “Mainland”.

111. MrPenney@94, Sagittarius @76, JofT@50 et al – I fear that ionicgate and Tetgate come from the same place, cultural insensitivity, though one (Sciences v Arts) less hurtful than the other (Tet Festival v Tet Offensive). Whether or not it’s cruciverbally wrong to use Tet to = offensive I do think the persistent use of that brutal meaning in a Western crossword jars massively, especially when its original meaning is so sacred and joyful. And yes there are too many Leavises and not enough Snows on this blog, but loonapick you are always forgiven 😉 . So I’m in the MrPenney and JofT camp, well done for flagging. (And bravo Mig!)

112. Do all fine wines age well?

113. Sorry to continue the scatological theme but my daughter’s version of 1dn (she’s a school teacher) is
     Q Why did the baker have brown hands?
     A 1dn

114. 4 clues solved.

115. Steffen@114, one of the ideas I haven’t seen articulated here, and which has helped me, is the alphabet game. If you’re working on a clue for which you have some crossers, you can pick a key square (say, the first letter) and in your mind try each letter of the alphabet. I find it helps dislodge me out of wrong ideas I’m stuck on, and stirs some more creative thinking!

     As I mentioned, I’ve been following the blog for a few years, including your comments, and have admired your persistence. Keep at it!

116. I am still at a loss as to why a baker would knead a poo.

117. In the previous 24 hours I’ve asked several friends whether they’ve ever heard of this “joke”, and all have answered no. Perhaps it’s a British thing? (Most young kids here would probably never have heard of “knead” anyway.)

118. I was familiar with the joke, it went straight in with a chuckle.

119. Thanks for the explanation, Shanne@101: some of us were never taught any of this and it’s nice to have it explained rather than just be berated for not knowing it.

120. A possible problem with self-deprecating humour used with one’s kids – at whatever age – is that they will generally just take it straight-faced, as an admission that you really are the chump that they assert.

     Thanks all.

121. Muffin @110 – sorry for the late reply. The largest island in the group is called “the Mainland” ; the archipelago as a whole is called Orkney.

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