Guardian 26,069 by Pasquale

by

A little gentler than usual from Pasquale, but very enjoyable – I really liked 11ac, 23ac and 10dn.

Across

1 Severely punish, making someone accept work forcibly? (5,3,4,2)
THROW THE BOOK AT
Literally =”Severely punish”; cryptically =”mak[e] someone accept work forcibly”

8 Drink coming in dribble at back of pub (5)
BOOZE
=”Drink”. OOZE=”dribble” after [pu]B

9 Region of intellectuals including exceptional lad (8)
MIDLANDS
=”Region”. MINDS=”intellectuals” around (lad)*

11 American philosopher, this writer entertained by Elizabeth and Charles? (7)
EMERSON
=”American philosopher”. ME=”this writer”, inside ER=”Elizabeth” and her SON=”Charles”.

12 Any number put in rank alongside Eastern VIP (7)
GRANDEE
=”VIP”. N=”Any number” inside GRADE=”rank” plus E[astern]

13 Past would include gross conduct you’d expect from yobs (5)
AGGRO
=”conduct you’d expect from yobs”. AGO=”Past” around GR[oss]

15 Action of bailiffs in school? There’s anguish, not half, about that (9)
DISTRAINT
Seizure of goods, =”Action of baliffs”. TRAIN=”school”, inside DIST[ress]=”anguish, not half”

17 Someone who is ignored — object? (3-6)
NON-PERSON
=”Someone who is ignored”; =”object”

20 Bank at sea? Say nothing, little troublemaker! (5)
SHELF
=”Bank at sea”. SH=”Say nothing” plus ELF=”little troublemaker”

21 Big leader off, free to move around as outcast (7)
REFUGEE
=”outcast”. [h]UGE=”Big leader off”, inside (free)*

23 Cricketer outside his own country, spinning in theatre of combat (3,4)
WAR ZONE
=”theatre of combat”. WARNE=”Cricketer” around rev(OZ)=”his own country, spinning”

25 Games I’ll run, sticking to the rules excessively (8)
LEGALISM
=”sticking to the rules excessively”. (Games I’ll)*

26 Section of rock, cold mat­erial (5)
CLINT
=”Section of rock”. C[old] plus LINT=”material”

27 One chum gets one agitated and all that sort of thing (2,3,5,4)
ET HOC GENUS OMNE
=”and all that sort of thing”. (One chum gets one)*

Down

1 Social conventions awfully stern, restricting compet­ent fellow (5,7)
TABLE MANNERS
=”Social conventions”. (stern)* around ABLE MAN=”competent fellow”

2 Sound of horse in river (5)
RHONE
=”river”. Sounds like ‘roan’=”horse”

3 Ethos went sloppy — one should get things sharpened up (9)
WHETSTONE
=”one should get things sharpened up”. (Ethos went)*

4 Sheltering in coal scuttle is little primate (7)
HOMINID
=”primate”. HOD=”coal scuttle” around MINI=”little”

5 Derek, an artist, establishing wine stores (7)
BODEGAS
=”wine stores”. BO Derek is an American actress, plus DEGAS=”artist”

6 Order whale-hunter to finish early and beach in time of war (5)
OMAHA
=”beach in time of war”, part of the Normandy landings. O[rder] of M[erit], plus AHA[b]=”whale hunter to finish early” – referring to captain Ahab in Moby Dick.

7 The final minutes of football? That could briefly make our tour! (5,4)
ADDED TIME
=”The final minutes of football”. Adding T[ime] to ‘our’ can make it into ‘Tour’

10 Among atheists he is pink (4,2,6)
LEFT OF CENTRE
=”pink”. The letters of “he” are LEFT OF CENTRE in “atheists”

14 Neglectful learner out getting drunk to sink towards the floor (9)
GENUFLECT
=”sink towards the floor”. (Neglectful)*, minus L[earner]

16 Others with agitation mounting about Conservative limits (9)
RESTRICTS
=”limits”. REST=”Others”, plus rev(STIR)=”agitation mounting” around C[onservative]

18 Time to get stuck into a bit of dressmaking or cooking? (7)
STEWING
=”cooking”. T[ime] inside SEWING=”a bit of dressmaking”

19 Journalist gets first sniff of scandal probing cardinal (7)
NEWSMAN
=”Journalist”. Cardinal NEWMAN around S[candal]

22 Fertiliser put on with summer month coming up (5)
GUANO
=”Fertiliser”. rev(ON AUG[ust])

24 Nothing holy? Hesitation to give biased description of people’s religion (5)
OPIUM
=”biased description of people’s religion”. O=”Nothing” plus PI[ous]=”holy” plus UM=”Hesitation”.

50 comments on “Guardian 26,069 by Pasquale”

  1. Progressed manfully until I nearly hit the slough of despond at 26a and 27a. Avoided giant despair by trusting probabilities, and, so, completed successfully, if not quickly. Vanity fair? Not really (I’ll get my coat).

  2. Re 1ac – surely only an academic would think of a book as work? Or am I missing something. Thanks for parsing 10d, which I now see is very clever!

  3. Re 1ac – surely only an academic would think of a book as work? Or am I missing something? Thanks for parsing 10d, which I now see is very clever!

  4. Thanks manehi. Got the top line very early and the bottom very late. Despite a good grounding in Latin, I’ve not come across the 27 a phrase before. Pretty enjoyable all up.

  6. Thanks, manehi.

    Typically well-made clues here, with less of the recondite vocabulary than in Pasquale’s last Guardian puzzle. The construction of 10d is ingenious (though to be churlish, the surface is not quite top-drawer) and I enjoyed 4d, 5d, 22d for their plausible simplicity.

    I don’t think I’ve ever come across the expression at 27a either, but O level Latin and a few crossing letters saved the day.

  7. Thanks, manehi. Surprisingly jocular for this setter.

    I would have liked 10dn more if Pasquale had used “he’s” instead of “he is”, which is bang in the centre of atheists.

  8. I haven’t left a comment here before, though have often admired and profited from those of others.
    I didn’t see how clever 7d and 10d actually were until I looked here.
    Hod for ‘coal scuttle’ foxed me. My dad was a Hod carrier and he never put a lump of coal in his hod.
    Doubtless, it’ll say in Chambers or another acceptable dictionary (not my Pocket Oxford) that ‘coal scuttle’ is acceptable.
    Thanks to lots of you for today’s help and assistance many times in the past.

  9. Many thanks Manehi and Pasquale.

    The Don never disappoints!

    Although I soon figured that 5d was BODEGAS, it took me ages to recall BO DEREK.

  10. Thanks to manehi for the blog. You explained several where I had the right answer without being able to parse them.
    I am another who has never heard the phrase in 27a but managed to fight my way through once I had all the crossers in place. I expect Eileen will have something to say about that.

    Welcome to Twm. I am another who looked here many times before starting to add comments.

  11. I don’t see how 10d works. The centre of atheists is “ei”. “H” is left of centre but not “he”.

  12. The atHEism is very good, and the clues are good, but styll we see some difficult words in Pasquale. It’s unnecessary I feel/

  13. Rowland @12 – however I repeat – HE is not left of centre of atHEists. The centre is either HEIS or EI, and in neither case are the letters HE to the left of it.

  14. jaceris @11/13, if you split ATHEISTS into two parts you get ATHE and ISTS. Taking the centre as the break between the E and the I, HE is to the left of it.

  15. The centre of atheists is the gap between E and I so HE is to the left. Another new submitter who has accessed this site for a long time.

  16. A toughie for me, even with gadgets to help, but then that’s why I claim the class dummy title!

    Clues like 27 should be banned. In an age when the majority never learn Latin that makes it excedingly unfair. Even someone of my age was never given the opportunity at school, not that I would have learned much even then as I struggle with all foreign languages. My brain just doesn’t work that way.

    Now programming languages, that is completely different! Easy peasy to me. But then most of you don’t have brains that work that way, so y’all should have some understanding of what I mean.

  17. I didn’t get Rhone but that is my fault. Unfortunately,although I had all the intersecting leter and knew it was an anagram i didn’t get 27. It really spoiled it for me.

    To use a phrase, in a dead language, which no one else has heard of is not on really.

  18. Thanks manehi and Pasquale
    To be honest, I didn’t enjoy this very much, finding it a bit like hard work. I don’t think either 10d or 27ac are fair – in 27ac I can’t see any indication that we are looking for an expression in a foreign language (and a dead one, at that!)
    I did like BODEGAS and EMERSON.

  20. Thanks manehi and Pasquale

    An entertaining puzzle with a nice light touch.

    I particularly liked 17a, 6d, 10d and 14d and would have also ticked 7d if I had seen the (t)our link.

  21. “Bodega” is much more familiar, though – it almost has become part of English (like “bistro” for example)

  22. I don’t think the complaints about 27ac are well-founded. ‘Et hoc genus omne’ is a Latin phrase in use in the English language (albeit rarely). I wouldn’t expect to see an indication that other such phrases (e.g. ex hypothesi) were from a ‘dead foreign language’. It’s a somewhat obscure phrase, but gettable without special knowledge with the aid of perhaps 3 or 4 crossers. given that the anagram indicator is clear. Not very easy, then, but not, in my view, unfair.

  23. Sorry those who defend 10d. In crossword convention the centre of a word is part of it not some imaginary gap.

  24. Come on Rog, give us one example of where you’ve heard or seen “et hoc genus omne” on TV, in the cinema, in a theatre, in any newspaper or down your local in the last ten years. Tell us the last time you ever heard it!

    With this one I thought the Don had learned the lessons of Marsh Street until 10d and 27a.

  25. Hi don @ 24
    I think I agree with you, but could you please explain what “the lessons of Marsh Street” are?

  26. Thanks manehi and Pasquale.

    Enjoyed today’s solve and found it a good deal more accessible than Pasquale’s last.

    Just wanted to give my two penn’orth on what are apparently the controversial clues:

    Re 27 – I have never been taught Latin and I hadn’t come across this particular phrase before, but I agree with Rog @22 – perfectly gettable from the anagram fodder and a few crossing letters.

    Re 10 – sorry jeceris, I can’t agree. The “centre of a word” has exactly the same meaning in crosswordland as anywhere else – if the word has an even number of letters then the centre is either the middle two letters, the middle four letters (etc) or indeed the space between the middle two letters. Taking the last sense as that which Pasquale clearly intended, “he” is to the left of the centre of “atheists”.

  27. Mitz @ 26 and others
    Yes, 27 was perfectly “gettable” from the crossers and the anagram (I solved both 27 and 10d, though the latter with some electronic aid). I still don’t think that it makes it a fair clue.

  28. Dunno why the guy goes for these weird entries, and then he ANAGRAMS them! Whether it’s in current usage or no, that’s hellish tricky as a jumble. Bad boy, Mr Setter.

    On the ATHE-ISTS one I agree with him however, that’s a good indication, and it’s clever, so I didn’t mind that it was quite difficult. The toughness was in the clever idea, so okay for me.

  29. I’m just trying to think when I last used the phrase ‘ex hypothesi’. Oh I remember now – never. I didn’t need the clue to tell me it was in latin – I worked that out.

    I don’t object to lights being difficult as per 10d, I liked that. I was a scientist but would strongly object to a light which needed a knowledge of obscure science. Why should I be happy with a latin phrase I had never heard of, which wasn’t in Chambers’ appendices?

  31. Sorry muffin, I’m confused by your comment @ 27. As a general point, if a solution is gettable from the clue, how can that clue be unfair?

  32. Mitz @31
    I’m being purist (I suppose!). I can imagine lots of sets of crossers that only allow one possible answer, in which case the clue becomes irrelevant. I thought that 27 was on the way to that, the only saving grace being the anagram provided.

    How about “Crossword animal? (3)” with crossers GN?

  33. Ha! I’ll remember that if ever I want to clue “wildebeest”…

    My own experience with 27 today:

    First sweep through. No crossers in place. Clearly an anagram with the first four words of the clue providing the fodder. Enumeration looks helpful but nothing is leaping out.

    After going through the down clues I’ve got ?T ?O? G?N?? ???? No “a”s or “i”s in the fodder. Uh oh, it’s got to be “ET” and especially as this is Pasquale it’s going to be Latin, isn’t it?

    “All that sort of thing”. Hmm.

    A-ha – must be “GENUS” – that means ET ?O? GENUS ???? and the remaining fodder is CHMONE.

    Isn’t “omnes” something to do with “all”, as in “omnivorous”? With 83 different cases in Latin I bet the correct one is “OMNE”. That just leaves an “H” and a “C” – must be “HOC”. Quick check with Google translate… bingo!

    Seemed perfectly fair at the time.

  34. Well done, mitz, clever working.
    I admit that using Google translate didn’t occur to me.
    I think you have a valid point, though I still would have liked some indication for a non-English phrase.

  35. btw my “clue” was inspired by a cartoon that I saw a long time ago. A zookeeper is explaining “we always like to keep animals in their natural environments” in front of a wildebeest in a cage wallpapered with crossword grids.

  36. Don @ 24. I haven’t heard or seen ‘et hoc genus omne’ in any of the places you mention. The same could be said of a lot of words and phrases which are nevertheless fair crossword fodder. As I said, it IS used in the English language (even if not by you, me, Ian Beale off Eastenders or Joe down the pub), so, as a matter of strict logic, there is neither more nor less reason to indicate its provenance in the clue than in the case of any other Latin (or French etc) phrase so used, albeit more commonly. Its rarity makes the clue more difficult; but when (if ever) does ‘difficult’ or ‘arcane’ become ‘unfair’?

  37. Mitz @ 33: just seen this. Well explained, and it pretty accurately reflects how I got there too. Your concrete explanation makes the point far more eloquently than my abstractions ever could. Fair clue!

  38. Hello All

    Back after a long absence.

    Quite a good puzzle from Pasquale although I thought HOD in 4d was a bit iffy. Didn’t get 27a. Could see it was an anagram but it is not a phrase I use regularly!

  40. Mitz @ 33, that’s just how I got there too. I think the clue was fair. We often have obscure words or phrases in crosswords, and that’s a great thing – it challenges one to learn new vocabulary. Even if the answer is in Latin, that is a big part of the etymology of our language so it is still relevant in that respect. I struggled with 10d and got it from the crossers and ‘pink’ in the clue, but could not parse it until came here. Thanks to B&S and all the helpful and thought provoking comments.

  41. Another excellent puzzle from the Don.

    All finished without resort to aids. I only did a little Latin at school and I didn’t know the expression, but my thought processes for 27ac were similar to Mitz@33, the only difference being OMNE was the last of the words I got after checking off the rest of the anagram fodder. I didn’t know CLINT either but deduced it from the wordplay.

    I have no problem at all with the clue for 10dn.

  42. Mitz et al passim re 27:

    Similar thought processes here. (Except I could translate the answer per memet.)

    A clue is fair if it is solvable. We solved it. Therefore it is fair.
    Hold on though. Isn’t that petitio principii, ie begging the question?
    In the Ximenean (classical?) sense the clue is fair. Wordplay, definition, nothing else.
    A more libertarian definition, and all that jazz, might have been fairly pleasing.

    The bottom line. Dolor in asinum.

  43. Have enjoyed the polite discussions concerning 27a & 10d. Find myself sympathetic to each successive point of view – because it does depend on your point of view.
    I solved 27a just like Mitz (thanks for the analysis),and it was always going to be an anagram – and 10d without parsing. Now that it’s explained I like the clue very much.
    Thanks to Manehi

  45. I am a long time criticiser of “The Don” and his penchant for dodgily clued arcane words. However I think this was one of the best puzzles I have seen from him if not the best.

    I really enjoyed this one and particularly liked the cleverness of 10d. My COD was 23A which although fairly easy was very elegant.

    I personally saw 27A as a clever response to us ignoramuses. “See, even you can get difficult answers if you try!”. It was obviously an anagram and the ?T combined with the fodder made it Latin. Basic O Level Latin made it gettable from there. (Sorry, I do believe rudimentary Latin is a must for any wannabe solver!)

    Well done to “The Don” for this response and thanks to Manehi who obviously found this easier than I did.

    P.S. We need to know about the “Lessons of Marsh Street”. Google only suggested a Piano Teacher in Taunton which I guess is way off the mark! 😉

  46. Thanks, Pasquale and manehi.

    I came to this late and tired and thoroughly enjoyed it.ET HOC (or ID)GENUS OMNES is in the back of my Chambers and wasn’t a problem.

    With all the other religious clues, Latin sprang to mind readily.

    Buona Notte!

    Giovanna xx

  47. Thanks manehi and Pasquale. I did enjoy this, though I’m not enthusiastic about 27a. My real question, though, is about 10d. I put in the answer correctly but remained uncertain, because “he is” is precisely the centre of “atheists”. Was this a deliberate mis-direction, I wonder (because the formulation “he’ll be pink” would avoid the difficulty)?

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